Should the DoD redesign its medals and ribbons policy and precedence to give more importance to valor than "good work"?

2016-04-26T11:49:11-04:00

https://warisboring.com/it-s-hard-to-tell-war-heroes-from-paper-pushers-when-everybody-gets-so-many-dumb-ribbons-9880c02e718c#.pm9dk9ofb
This article makes a compelling case for redesign of the DoD medal and ribbon policies. The solution offered, wearing valor awards on the right side of uniform, may not please many service members, but it's one idea. Please read the article and take the survey.

It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons — War Is...

Time to reform the Pentagon’s award system

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-04-26T11:58:25-04:00

No need to change tradition. Just more emphases on proper award awarding. Here is Eisenhower's actually ribbon rack.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Apr 26 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-04-26T11:58:53-04:00

Valor tends to have higher placement that good work Lt Col Jim Coe. The only exception seems to be the ARCOM or other Service equivalent with V device which is lower in precedence than the MSM and Legion of Merit.
The Army award policy varies by unit, post and commander with some being more free in authoring awards for exemplary service and others resisting it.
The Army system also required us to list all prior awards. I found that soldiers who did not have prior awards were less likely to receive an award they deserved. LTC Stephen C. SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SGT John " Mac " McConnell LTC Bill Koski LTC Wayne Brandon LTC Wayne Brandon LTC Private RallyPoint Member LTC Ivan Raiklin, Esq. CPT Gabe Snell SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA COL Mikel J. Burroughs MSG Andrew White SFC William Farrell

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Apr 26 at 2016 12:15 PM

2016-04-26T12:15:18-04:00

Lt Col Jim Coe, if anything, I think that the number of medals and ribbons will grow. I'm not altogether certain that anything WILL be done to accomplish what you suggest. My father served just shy of three years in the U.S. Navy during WWII, and was all over the Pacific for a fair amount of that time. This was all he was awarded and that was during a declared war for goodness sake!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 26 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-04-26T12:40:23-04:00

I take a more historical perspective in that today's fruit salad has far less meaning than my Dad's single row. The exception are the top ones. So in reality it doesn't matter if you understand the history of where we were and where we are now.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Apr 26 at 2016 2:12 PM

2016-04-26T14:12:31-04:00

I feel most SMs wear the ribbons and medals as required by directives and many would just as rather wear only a few or none at all (except say, on very formal occasions). Hence Ike chose to wear the few which meant the most to him, and Gen Petraeus is pictured wearing his according to Army regulations. If ribbons and medals were optional in most cases, I feel that most would choose to wear none or only those 'special ones'.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2016 3:36 PM

2016-04-26T15:36:51-04:00

This how I see it everyone is hung up on comparing WWII to today. You can not do this as they were not the same and the world is not the same.
During WWII they were on tour of duty assigned to that theater fighting that campaign and in doing so would get awarded for that campaign. Now NOT ALL went from Europe to Pacific and in doing so would receive awards and campaign recognition for that AOR. The point being is they were assigned to one mission or operation. I believe that in Europe some got awards for going into each country during certain time frames. This was all for this time nothing else was going on at that time.

This brings us to the Military of the 90's and 2000's. One it is smaller so we are asking more of them. You can have all kind of things going on at one time when this has never happen in this kind of mass mission overload. So you have few carrying a lot of burden in different area around the world and we have not asked our military to do this before.

This is what happens you have Iraq member deploys with unit for 6 months to one year then back home and preparing for next OPORDER or mission. Tasking comes and you work up for AFG different hardships and environment and campaign. Then back to US and an Earthquake happens and this unit is tasked to mobilize its assets and deploy for humanitarian disaster assistance. The country is wiped out no power and roads and bridges are all destroyed. The country needs to be restabilized, bodies recovered, power, roads and bridges need to be repaired in order to bring this country back on line. There is also disorder during this crises and dangers as riots and armed mobs try taking control. This unit completes its mission sent back to train for next deployment. Deployment order comes and it is back to Iraq for different type mission COIN. So then then they do this and complete mission. Then back to US and regroup for next mission. Disaster in US and major destruction of a region in the US and now back to disaster recovery mission set and helping your country out on its own soil. Complete this mission back to getting prepared for next mission. Deploy to PACOM but a task comes unit has to provide a special detachment of 180 personnel to conduct prison mission in Iraq and need to go through special training before deployment on top of the requirements to do a reg deployment so 180 personnel will have double training to conduct. The next thing that happens during this time is unit is tasked with standing up a 40 person disaster recovery team to relieve the unit they are taking over for in PACOM. The TEAM will deploy to Pakistan north western frontier and Kashmir region of country. So now they need special training like defensive driving skills send to MCMAP Marine Crops Martial Arts Program and more special small weapons handling course concealed carry and other techniques.

The above is one example that we are asking units and troops to do today and they are all different campaigns and deserve some recognition. This shows what we are asking troops to do in todays military so anyone that says they do not disserve recognition or a participation ribbon well you walk in their shoes one time and tell me. I am not taking anything away from WWII or other times we are just asking more of this military then ever before so yes they will have more on their chest and well I do and don't tell me its participation because not everyone does and those that do should get something and yes Valor is higher. My combat action ribbon is on the 3 rd. row of my rack and this is why I did not just wear my top 3,becuase I hold the CAR above some of the others. The others wear earned in high ranking though and disserve to be showed.

Some of these people that are speaking out about this have not or did not serve under these conditions

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-04-26T19:35:29-04:00

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty certain sure they already are and always have been.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-05-04T17:25:39-04:00

Eisenhower actually earned 10 US medals/awards and 58 foreign medals/awards. Attached is a better image of his awards though he could wear MUCH more and make GEN P look like a private.

Response by Lt Col George Roll made Nov 28 at 2016 11:08 PM

2016-11-28T23:08:52-05:00

Ike had many ribbons, he chose for this picture to wear only 3. The Navy wears 3 to differentiate a work uniform from a semi dress one. Wearing many ribbons is not vanity as much as showing fellow service iceman and women what they can aspire to. Ike was as Maj. A planner and Administrator prior to WII, His rise did not involve close combat. General Petraus served in combat at many levels before commanding our forces in Iraq and directing the surge. There are many more opertunities to earn medals and combat awards in today's Military.

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made May 12 at 2017 12:19 PM

2017-05-12T12:19:56-04:00

Not everything needs a ribbon anymore - volunteering, overseas, schools, GCM, reserve time, arctic, some are duplicative... Do you really need a GCM or Schools ribbon? You're still in and have rank - toss those two. Put the volunteer on OER/NCOER and call it good. Some jobs don't necessarily mean any less when in a supportive manner so do you now say Valor is superior to support being CONUS more often simply due to a job, e.g., UAV pilot sitting at Huachuca vice OCONUS or Admin preparing your deployment. Some are just going to get more due to their jobs and the opportunities either through volunteering or being volunteered. Been out for almost 20 now so a lot has changed, but I took every single troops mission as being just as important as the other's. Pushing paper or being on the line, each had a mission and performed as expected or beyond in their capacity! Does it need work or change, one could say no because of the decades long service time, but another thing if I recall, Just because you have them, you DO NOT have to wear them, though highly recommended... Again, policy changes and might be dictated.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jul 19 at 2017 12:54 PM

2017-07-19T12:54:12-04:00

My opinion, we could do away with quite a few ribbons, The NCOES ribbons, The ribbon for graduating basic and AIT, the Overseas ribbon (exception would be entering a theater of conflict) - instead of giving a ribbon for graduating an NCOES, or OES school, give an AAM for achievement. Just my two cents

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2017 1:54 PM

2017-07-19T13:54:44-04:00

I wish we could wear our highest ribbon, campaign ribbon, and our occupational badge. I have worn service dress 2 times in 16 years so what do I know?

Response by SPC Joseph McBrayer made Jul 19 at 2017 3:54 PM

2017-07-19T15:54:11-04:00

The military now days hands out fruit salad like it's free candy at a parade. I've seen NCO's with more salad on their dress blues than full bird Colonels. Absolutely ridiculous. It's compared to participation trophies for every kid.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jul 22 at 2017 10:09 PM

2017-07-22T22:09:46-04:00

Two rows of three ribbons, starting with highest. Three badges

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 23 at 2017 12:50 AM

2017-07-23T00:50:47-04:00

Why not mandate a "total number", 12-15, of service and campaign ribbons to be worn.

Qualification badges S/b restricted to courses of? 3 weeks, (5 jump chump), or longer?

All would have to be instantly identifiable by the wearer!

I ain't got no DOG in this discussion, just consternation with the number of ribbons, medals, qualification badges, unit awards, foreign decorations etc. So I missed a few, I can't imagine why!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2017 3:34 AM

2017-07-23T03:34:56-04:00

One thing that's thrown off by the pictures is that in the marines and the navy you can wear only your top 3 awards. You don't have to wear them all. I don't know if the Army used to allow it, but if they did that would be why you only saw the 3.
On a side note. When a brand new LT that's hasn't done a damn thing but but a couple of patrols gets a bronze star just for being on a deployment, something needs to change. A bronze star used to have meaning. Now it's a gimme award for a PSG or higher on a deployment, while junior joes who do amazing acts of valor get an ARCOM with a V. Big gap there.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made Jul 23 at 2017 7:51 AM

2017-07-23T07:51:04-04:00

Personally, I think awards of valor should be honored by wearing the actual medal, while others should just be the ribbon.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jul 23 at 2017 9:54 AM

2017-07-23T09:54:07-04:00

At times, many senior officers appear like third world potentates.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Jul 23 at 2017 12:44 PM

2017-07-23T12:44:01-04:00

For some reason having to do with multiple redirections within a site I've not been able to take a look at the quoted article but looking at the comments on this topic I think I get the gist. Why do those who display bravery in combat deserve less prestigious awards than those who perform their duties without bullets and other unfriendly things whizzing about at the time? And all of the variants of that question. And why does everybody look like an Admiral in the Swiss Navy?

So Here's an idea. Pare down the awards given for things like serving overseas unless it's deemed an unpleasant place to be for an extended period of time(think the DMZ in Korea, Antarctica or places the internet is not available), completing schools that do not add an identifier your MOS, volunteering to help in your community or doing things you are supposed to do like riding around on boats or airplanes. Change the order of precedence for decorations to recognize valor, service and achievement, and longevity in that order. Do away with the multi purpose awards. The combat valor awards would be the MOH, Service Crosses, Silver Star, DFC, Bronze Star, Combat Air Medal and the Commendation Medal for Valor in that order. Then the Purple Heart followed by the Soldier, Navy and Marine Corps, Airman's and Coast Guard Medals for non combat valor. The decorations for service would be ordered as follows: the various Distinguished Service Medals, LOM, MSM, the service Commendation Medals for Service then the various Achievement Medals with those awarded for service in combat zones designated with a "C." Then the service awards such as the POW Medal and the various GCM's. Award campaign medals for service in combat zoness, humanitarian missions or just plain nasty places(AFEM). The precedent for a medal for staying home was set during WWII so the NDSM stays but it comes after all the medals for going someplace.. The number of foreign awards worn would be one per nation or organization and may not exceed the number of US awards and would be worn in order of award.

So under this scheme GEN Petraeous' top award would be the Bronze Star followed by the Imageneral service awards and the Notageneral service awards. His Armed Forces Service Medal and Overseas Service Ribbons would go away as would one French medal and one NATO medal.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jul 23 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-07-23T12:58:09-04:00

The comparison picture is somewhat misleading. You're allowed to wear only the top three, like Eike is doing there.

Response by GySgt Lawrence Clark made Jul 23 at 2017 2:55 PM

2017-07-23T14:55:54-04:00

I remember when General Myer became CofS of the army and made the statement that he would like to see more awards and accoutrements designed. Course this was peace time and the officer corps wanted a little more salad on their uniform so they could feel better in formation beside Vietnam vets, I guess. So, we got the Overseas Ribbon, Army Service Ribbon that basic training ribbon, NCODP Ribbon and a slew of others. They're worthless. After forty years I look like a Bolivian General and only three are worth anything to me out of the 34.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Jul 23 at 2017 6:19 PM

2017-07-23T18:19:24-04:00

Keep the awards and medals as they are. Change the criteria by which awards are given. An E-7 should not get a Bronze Star just for sitting around, getting fat and drinking 8 cups of coffee a day. While an E-4 medic or infantryman suppresses 12 fighters making multiple trips to carry wounded allies gets an ARCOM with V device.

It would take a top down change to allow awards be given out solely based on merit and not by rank. I had 4 members of my chain of command nominate me for a Silver Star as an end of tour award. It got busted down to an ARCOM because of my rank. Soldiers in my age bracket join for many reasons and leave for just as many. Having a little bit of recognition would go a long way in helping retention NCOs to do their job.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Jul 23 at 2017 7:13 PM

2017-07-23T19:13:49-04:00

When I joined the Navy 1966 (E-1) the Navy and even more so, the Marine Corps were penurious with their awarding of medals. the campaign ribbons/medals make some kind of sense, as do valor awards, and personal awards (XXcom, XXmeritorious, XX achievement ) but awards for recruiting, boot camp completion, winter-over, are beginning to look like little league - participation awards. In the Old Days in the Navy, Unit commanders were given a quota of each type of award to be given, and there was also a heir achy of what level of award could be given my a particular rank. Things have change, not sure I agree.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 23 at 2017 8:32 PM

2017-07-23T20:32:21-04:00

This is apples and oranges. First off, they created the Air Medal, CIB, BSM, and CMB late in the war to recognize the hard ships borne from heavy losses in the air and on the ground. GEN Eisenhower is only wearing a handful of awards here by choice. There are other photos of him and his peers wearing a more extensive set of decorations. I liken this to GEN Dempsey wearing 6 ribbons and one or two qualification badges, while in official photos, he has a full rack.

Soldiers have had the option to wear some of their decorations, vice all, unless directed by the commander.

My Grandfather was awarded five medals and a CIB for his service as an infantryman in the Pacific. All five were campaign medals and a GCM. He did not go back withe the 1947 policy to retroactively award the BSM to all CMB and CIB recipients for meritorious service.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2017 4:27 AM

2017-07-24T04:27:23-04:00

I agree that our awards system is broken. I don't think moving valor awards to the right is the answer though. In the last 70 years we've gone from Soldiers leaving the service with zero awards to nearly everyone above the rank of E4 looking like a 3rd world country dictator. There needs to be some balance. There also needs to be a level of scarcity in order for an award to be meaningful. With that said, here are my suggestions on fixing awards bloat:

1. Merge service specific and joint "good job" medals into one award. A Defense Achievement Medal, Defense Commendation Medal, Defense Meritorious Service Medal, and Defense Distinguished Service Medal would all still accomplish the same intent, but eliminate a lot of the "clutter" discussed in the article.

2. Most of the "gimmes" could probably go away as well. The Army Service Ribbon, for example, is essentially an award for graduating basic training. The NCO Professional Development ribbon is literally a ribbon for completing a required school. The Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal is essentially a "Good Conduct Medal" for Officers and a redundant good conduct medal for enlisted personnel.

3. ARNG State awards should also be reviewed. To provide some context, California alone has 20 state level awards. I think it's certainly appropriate to recognize RC Soldiers who mobilize for emergency response and other SAD missions. However, instead of each state awarding their own medal I think we should have one award recognized by the Title 10 force. Likewise, I would support eliminating state good conduct medals in favor of awarding the federal award. State Achievement and Commendation Medals could also be eliminated in favor of the Federal Awards. Finally, do we really need a recruiting ribbon? In my opinion an achievement medal would be just as appropriate for someone who excels in recruiting.

4. I agree with the article that valor awards should receive more recognition. However, instead of moving them why not just reduce the amount of "good job" awards above the BSM? Do we really need multiple awards that will only be earned by COLs and above?

5. The Army Overseas Service Ribbon and the Army Reserve Component Overseas Training ribbon could be merged into one overseas service ribbon. Are two separate awards really necessary? For that matter, is it really necessary to award the overseas service ribbon for combat service when you receive overseas service bars as well?

6. The Armed Forces Reserve Medal could also be eliminated or reformed. It's yet another award based solely on time in service, without even requiring good conduct. It can also be awarded for mobilization as a RC Soldier, but we already receive campaign medals for that. In either case the award's intent is already accomplished by other existing awards.

7. The GWOTSM should also be removed or reformed. We already have the NDSM which recognizes service during a time of war. If anything I would recommend the GWOTSM be reserved for recognition for CONUS mobilizations/deployments in support of the GWOT.

8. The MOVSM could also be eliminated. While volunteer work is certainly a positive thing, this medal's purpose could easily be accomplished by an achievement or commendation medal. I would argue that volunteer work is not so critical to the military's mission that it needs it's own award.

Before anyone gets their hackles up, many of my suggestions would eliminate awards I hold as well. The intent is not to denigrate anyone's service. I just feel like our awards have become borderline superfluous. The awards I'm most proud of are my campaign medals. They're the ones I feel like I truly earned. The rest were basically awarded for showing up.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Jul 24 at 2017 9:29 AM

2017-07-24T09:29:10-04:00

Just my saying but you earned the right to wear the medallion for SAMC and SGT Morales the ARMY should of made a ribbon a long time ago for you to wear on your uniform instead of you only wearing the medallion at special events. it should be on your DD form 214 it Official Board in the Army.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2017 11:52 AM

2017-07-24T11:52:10-04:00

There are plenty of cool-guy medals that are realistically only attainable if your are a very senior CSM in position of division-level and up or a General Officer. LOM, ADSM, DSSM, and DDSM fall into that category. And you know what? I am just fine with that. Let the pooh-bahs have their bling and jazzy medals as a kind of lifetime achievement award.
For me, every single ribbon or oak leaf I wear has a story, and I am not embarrassed to tell the story behind each and every one of them.

Response by Sgt John Koliha made Jul 24 at 2017 1:52 PM

2017-07-24T13:52:19-04:00

A quotation my Napoleon comes to mind: "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon."

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Nov 24 at 2017 7:50 PM

2017-11-24T19:50:40-05:00

Yes, Yes, yes. It really upsets me the amount of traffic on this site about this medal or that badge. How about 2 or three rows of ribbons starting at you highest and only two badges. I remember people retiring with a National Defense and a Good Conduct.

That was how Patreus injured his back. Trying to stand up

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2018 10:53 PM

2018-02-20T22:53:46-05:00

My opinion on awards is this: everything is relative.

Take the one award EVERYONE has: the Army service ribbon. We don’t make it a big deal because, again everyone has one. Some even call it a participation trophy, and I can see their point. But look at it another way, and how many people in the COUNTRY have one? I think it’s 2% now? That’s allot of people who DONT have one. I wouldn’t recommend putting an ASM bumper sticker on your car, but it’s something to think about.

Same goes for campaign medals, service medals and achievement medals. A lot of people in the Army have them, but there a whole lot more out there who can’t make the same claim.

Folks don’t think too much about their awards and such when they’re in, but 20 years after they’re out, it might be different.

To answer the specific question at hand: keep em. With all going on in the Army and the world, they are physical manifestation of a lot of hard work.

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made May 14 at 2018 6:23 PM

2018-05-14T18:23:54-04:00

It's medal creep. Years ago, the joke was "He has more medals than a General in the Mexican Air Force"...now, the Mexicans have turned that around on us.

Also, My great uncle was a SeaBee who built mulberrys at Normandy while under fire by Germans, then got shipped to the Pacific to get shot at by Japs while building runways for B-29's during the "Island Hopping" campaign. He retired as a Chief after 20 years with 8 medals/ribbons. I know E4's who have that before they re-enlist or go on any arduous deployment.

Yeah...it's changed alright.

Response by SCPO William Akin made May 14 at 2018 8:11 PM

2018-05-14T20:11:55-04:00

It (your time) don't mean a thing, if you ain't got that bling... ;-)

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2018 2:00 PM

2018-06-16T14:00:32-04:00

I think the issue isn't how much is out there it's the liberal dispensation to troops based on rank. I am prior service Marines and moved over to the guard. As a new E4/Cpl I was a plt Sgt in Iraq as a Marine, I got a meritorious mast. A soldier I served with after transition to the guard received a bronze star for the same job as an E6. It comes down to awards that are earned by actions valor or achievement not because of rank.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 9 at 2018 7:48 AM

2018-08-09T07:48:44-04:00

Do you even know how hard it is to get a Valor award. Soldiers bust their asses in combat and don't get crap for it.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 14 at 2018 1:53 AM

2018-08-14T01:53:42-04:00

Other. Make Army Unit Awards the same size as the other branches unit awards... Tired of my unit awards looking all wonky...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2018 5:23 PM

2018-09-19T17:23:16-04:00

CPO Private RallyPoint Member I think you give a valid point where our service members who are down range, regardless of job, are often asked to do multiple jobs at once while being closer to the”front” so to speak. This is certainly a different paradigm than during WWII where the majority of service members were never in combat nor near the front, or asked to perform jobs generally well out of there rating.

I agree that many “good job awards” are very important. Even on stateside duty if you have gone above and beyond in your job you deserve recognition for a job well done. AAMs, ARCOMs, and their other service equivalents serve an important role.

I do think we need to streamline, however. I know for one we had major headaches overseas and butthyrt feelings trying to see who qualified for what - are we getting JSAMs or JCOMs or just ARCOMS, etc. It becomes very murky and even murkier when commanders aren’t on the same page as to what is worthy of what or who for that matter. I get the feeling as others pointed out that awards then get based more on bias/personal knowledge of th individual rather than their work.

Two fixes: first, greater education on awards and the process needs to be in place. Along with this is perhaps, much as promotions should be the same way, blotch out demographics and go more so on the actual content for what the award is for. Perfect? No, but a start.

Response by Cpl Charles Trump made Mar 27 at 2020 1:55 PM

2020-03-27T13:55:21-04:00

Reduce the amount of Army and AF ribbons, and redo that stupid ASR! A rainbow, have mercy! Why not a Cav blue ribbon with national eagle in the center. Or better yet do away with it and make it a entry in the Soldiers file. Same for BNOC, ANOC entry into the record book. Multiple jump wings? I can see wearing ours. But I have seen some ridiculous setups. Once again, entry into the record book. CIB Vs EIB. Why would you want to wear that plain jane blue bar, Once you have earned and survived the action that you were awarded the CIB for. Once again. When a soldier returns with a CIB the EIB goes in the record book. Sorry folks I was Army before USMC I always thought the Army Greens was the oorah thing. But I think some things have to be regarded as clutter! Or hey, look at me thing!

Response by SPC Kortney Kistler made May 23 at 2020 1:56 PM

2020-05-23T13:56:30-04:00

The CIB used to be made from sterling silver. I went to purchase an original silver one from ebay for my father so he could have an extra one. Unfortunately in the process of polishing the silver it removed some of the blue enamel.

Here is where it gets interesting. The seller sent the CIB with the records of the recipient. It was from WWII. The MOS of the recipient was clerical. Looked to me like someone fudged his own records. .

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2020 2:30 PM

2020-05-23T14:30:22-04:00

Recognition is an important tool, but I fear we have been terribly uncreative in how we employ it (especially in the Air Force). Assuming that everything that is being recognized should be, we should probably consider options other than ribbons for some things. I won't lie, I'm a little jealous of service hashes our sister services use. It's an efficient, effective, non-ribbon form of recognition. And maybe a good concept to model.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2020 3:01 PM

2020-05-23T15:01:32-04:00

Get rid of training ribbons, GWOT-S (everyone gets that plus a NDSM... don’t need both), all the medals that only generals and admirals are eligible for, and maybe pare down some of the other medals (ie: Air Medal, Arial Achievement Medal, and DFC- just award Commendation Medal, MSM, BSM, or Silver Star instead... maybe add a device to denote flight if that is important to have). Additionally, reduce the number of service medals for things like nuclear deterrence, etc (if your job is to deal with nukes, why should you get a medal just for doing your job?!?).

Response by 1SG Alan Boggs made May 23 at 2020 6:24 PM

2020-05-23T18:24:50-04:00

A soldiers ribbons tell the story of his service. We know which are which and what they are for

Response by SSG Jason Penn made May 23 at 2020 9:02 PM

2020-05-23T21:02:52-04:00

The current system is rife with problems....
1) It was easier back in the day to get a Medal Of Honor than it is today. Point in reference, look at all the awards during WWII when the citation reads "single handedly took out a machine gun nest". However, today, you almost always have to die, and a machine gun nest is not enough, you now have to single handedly take on nearly a Division.
2) Awards these days are not indicative of what an award is for.... It does not matter what rank someone is compared to the action they performed... I am getting tired of PVT Smith taking on an entire Company by himself, but can't get above an ARCOM due to his rank, but a 1LT who hides under his bunk gets a Bronze Star. Awards should be for merit and should never have anything to do with rank!
3) How many awards are downgraded because they "can't present the award in time"? That is complete B.S., I had 2 ARCOMs downgraded to AAMs because I PCS'd before they could get me the award. Basically, why is the Soldier punished because of a command that can't get their shit together?
4) There is no consistency between units; in one unit it takes an act of God to get an award, but in another, they hand awards out like candy!

Response by LTC Russ Smith made May 23 at 2020 9:30 PM

2020-05-23T21:30:17-04:00

The country's, generals, and SMAJs who suffer from medal-envy will never fix this. That said, I wore everything I was awarded.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made May 24 at 2020 12:54 PM

2020-05-24T12:54:43-04:00

Truth be told, I worked very hard to earn the awards that were presented to me during my entire career. I am very proud of what I have accomplished. Many deserving service members were presented with a lesser award than what they deserved based on the fact that they were of lower rank. I say we get rid of the mentality that somehow awards are tied to a certain rank/grade.

Response by SPC John Decker made May 25 at 2020 1:17 AM

2020-05-25T01:17:53-04:00

They should redesign the policy. They won't. Technically, the DoD is civilian, who don't know what all the ribbons are for. The Generals won't do it because of their ego's.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Jun 7 at 2020 1:04 PM

2020-06-07T13:04:42-04:00

Get rid of ribbons earned in training...boot camp stuff etc. Convert marksmanship awards to badges (see Marines).

It was once explained to me that, for example, USAF has training related ribbons because it inflates their overall stack to be a bit closer in total amount to other branches.

I do not agree with it.

Part of Valor includes the measures of both potential risk, and real risk, one has subjected themselves to. You shouldn’t benefit by joining the safest/least deployable branch to the safest/least deployable job within it.

Furthermore, what you did “in training” was preparing to serve, but you were not serving (yet). All of these awards are supposed to be Service Awards.

You don’t get the Valor awards without putting yourself into a position where you chances of ever needing to handle a “shit-sandwich” might ever become relevant.

Response by PO2 Ron Harlan made Jun 20 at 2020 8:07 AM

2020-06-20T08:07:58-04:00

I was passed up for NAM’s 3 or 4 times, either because of rank, division politics (one was for an AVCERT I helped salvage, but I was a snipe...), or because I was unwilling to write my own citation- just didn’t seem right to me...

Response by MSG Mark Stinson made Jul 3 at 2020 1:56 AM

2020-07-03T01:56:52-04:00

The only problem that I have about the system is the downgrading of initial awards. For example after a prolonged firefight in Vietnam where I had command of the 43rd Company out of A-401, IV Corps Mobile Strike Force (Mike Force) with 112 Cambodians as an E-4 just 5 months out of the Special Forces Training Group August 2, 1969 (now called the Q Course) I was facing a NVA human wave attack. I called in artillery and CAS which blunted the assault and during the contact I was moving across open ground to direct fire and to make sure every fighting position was up. Our B-40 commander submitted the paperwork for a Silver Star but the S-1 Captain told me that it’ll certainly be downgraded because (1) I wasn’t wounded and (2) I wasn’t an officer. He said it could drop down to an ARCOM with V. It only went down to a Bronze Star with ‘V’. Later I was put in for three MSM’s but all three were downgraded to ARCOM’s. I had a total of five ARCOM’s and five AAM’s. Apparently the higher HQ didn’t like me that much. I’m not bothered by the snub because I simply wanted to do the best I could. One other point we considered the Bronze Star for meritorious service a participation trophy, something nice for all the staff guys in the rear with the gear (REMF/POGs). The I love me shadow box the ARCOM and AAM are switched. Photo taken by my mother after I returned from the Nam Sep 16, 1970. The Cambodian troops were in a formation prior to deploying on a 30 day mission. The phot shows the fourth platoon. The last photo was taken the morning after vthe contact I wrote about; it was day 7 of a 30 day op. All of our ops were 30 days long. The Mike Force was a MACVSOG program called ‘Eagle Flight’ it was so successful that in each of the four corps every C-Team designated one of their subordinate B-Teams as the Mike Force. A-401, B-40, C-4, 5th Special Forces Group.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2020 10:55 AM

2020-07-06T10:55:12-04:00

We have too many participation medals and ribbons, not to mention the obscene subjectivity that is the award system.
NCOPD ribbon - useless. Rank is tied to NCOPD
Good Conduct Medal - we should not reward "just staying out of trouble"
Army Service Ribbon - why, just why?

Response by LCpl Larry Morgan made Jul 17 at 2020 7:13 PM

2020-07-17T19:13:17-04:00

I feel that all of the "feel good" and "I was there" awards should be done away with.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jul 19 at 2020 4:22 AM

2020-07-19T04:22:19-04:00

I have more meritorious mass letters and letters of appreciation then I do ribbons. I Seem to always perform at a high level of Excellency no matter what task I was given I always gave it my best and wound up with a letter of appreciation or even a meritorious mast . But I have very few ribbons so I feel valor should have more presidents over good work the two you would think would go hand-in-hand with a person can do a good job and have a mentality that really sucks then you can have a person who’s Mentality is low-key during peacetime what in the heat of the battle the valor and then comes out and shines and they save many lives. That’s why I choose valor over good work because valor comes out of people under the most strenuous and extenuating circumstances . While good work is a broader criteria to consider. Personally I think Hollywood has gotten into the psyche of a lot of American people and they come into the military and other organizations with the mindset to see how they can be a hero rather than how they can perform as part of a team and make the result of a team effort a priority over one’s personal goals to stand out.

Response by SCPO Ralph Hensley made Jul 31 at 2020 10:30 PM

2020-07-31T22:30:17-04:00

Too many awards given based on grade/rank rather than criteria. I've never seen so many Soldiers awarded Bronze Stars for current contingencies some who received the medal just for leaving the FOB once or twice. I agree with SPC Ashfield's sentiment. With this Space Force I suspect Airmen will now receive medals for playing video games all day.

Response by Cpl Charles Trump made Aug 2 at 2020 11:49 PM

2020-08-02T23:49:30-04:00

Being the Army and AF are the biggest offenders of this let me tell you what I think. Cut out end of tour awards for both enlisted and officers. Army service ribbon should be a record book entry not a ribbon, as PLC and BLC should be. Army recruits shouldn't have anything but a shooting badge and NDM. The GWOTS should only be issued after the 1st deployments.

Response by PO2 Jon Coulter made Aug 4 at 2020 2:01 PM

2020-08-04T14:01:11-04:00

Too many medals. Looking like Kings of Europe before WW!. You are not paid to loaf about, drinking coffee and counting days until your pension. You are sworn to go in harm's way, whether a Marine, or a Coastguardsman saving lives on the high seas. That kind of medal means something, demands instant respect. All for valor, over time served. A divider showing service would keep order. showing see duty, submarine duty, pilots training.

Response by CPO Charles Helms made Aug 6 at 2020 12:55 PM

2020-08-06T12:55:37-04:00

In the Navy unless you are a Seal, SeaBee, a Fleet Marine Corpsman, or Brown Water Navy are some of different ways medals for valor are give! Many more sailors never see combat, so medals presented to them for their hard work and diligence is a way showing them appreciation for that! I have 2 Navy Commendation medals and a Navy Achievement medal for doing my job above and beyond!

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Aug 7 at 2020 11:56 AM

2020-08-07T11:56:45-04:00

Keep medals and ribbons the same. Ike was never a paratrooper nor a Ranger and did not have the opportunities to advance and train and achieve that Petraeus had. Ike was stuck in the Philippines as MacArthur's slave and only got out of there because of time in service and automatic promotion to LTC. His only war experience was World War II. Comparing his record to Petraeus and today's soldiers is apples to oranges. It was not the same Army and certainly not the same time.

Response by PO1 Michael Garrett made Aug 7 at 2020 5:22 PM

2020-08-07T17:22:22-04:00

Not long after 911 occurred Kala I was recalled to full active duty in the US navy. I was being mobilize in Pensacola naval air station. We checked in and they gave us our quarters to stay here and after that we were dismissed for the rest of the day. I went down to the navy exchange to get some military clothing. This store also sold civilian clothing. I noticed an elderly couple, in their eighties. The husband had on a ball cap and a light blue windbreaker jacket. He was looking at some shirts and his wife of possibly 5060 years was critiquing him on his choice of shirts. They were doing the typical old couple thing at the time period the wife harping on what the husband was doing and the husband ignoring the wife.. I sorta chuckled at the scene as I was witnessing this period that was when the guy turned his back to me and I saw what unit he was with.
He was with the 82nd Airborne through all up its campaigns in World War II. All of them!
At that point in my life, I had 4 rows of ribbons and was working on a 5th row. Upon seeing the back of that Veterans jacket, I realized that all the wars I had received in the navy didn't mean Jack ship. I was staring at a true veteran and a true hero! Back when the military actually gave out awards for meaningful things!
Today, our military hands out feel good awards to individuals for basically just doing their job.

Response by SGT Stephen Comereski made Aug 8 at 2020 1:01 AM

2020-08-08T01:01:33-04:00

You shouldn't be awarded for whats expected of you..ie "good work", but Valor is above and beyond and should be recognized and awarded!!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2020 2:34 PM

2020-08-09T14:34:30-04:00

Unfortunately, the photo of Eisenhower fails to grasp that the wearing of awards is voluntary and an individual can wear as many or as few as they desire. Wikipedia may not be an authoritative source but it does provide greater detail on the number and type of ribbons and medals awarded to Eisenhower. More importantly, many of our awards were not authorized when Eisenhower was in the military. Congress created them for each operation (humanitarian, regional, large and small, etc.) as well as for peacetime (soldier's medal, ARCOM, AAM, etc.). So, to compare Eisenhower, who served in the Mexican campaign, Philippine's Occupation, WWI, and WWII with Patreus, whose career started 60 years after Eisenhower's doesn't work. The valid point remains, we should recognize people for both achievement and service and stop inflating awards or over recognizing participation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower

Dwight_D._Eisenhower

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Aug 9 at 2020 9:41 PM

2020-08-09T21:41:16-04:00

We need to turn the clock back about 60 years. You should not get an AAM for doing your job. You should not get a MSM for doing your job. Ribbons and medals should be limited to campaigns and acts of valor and heroism. AND, get rid of all the extra badges, army uniforms look like over decorated Christmas trees (and I'm retired army).

Response by CSM Donald McGlasson made Aug 10 at 2020 9:54 AM

2020-08-10T09:54:12-04:00

I really don't want to see a major shape up to the award precedence but do think many of the ribbons could be eliminated such as the Army Service Ribbon (ASR) and the NCO Professional Development Ribbon (NCOPD) just as those in other services for completing a specific school (AIT). The military is an meritocracy and most awards are issued based on "what you do", not "who you are". I will not attempt to disrespect anyone's intelligence by suggesting rank or position doesn't enter into many levels of awards but in my experience it has been merit that drives awards. My last thought on this.... I do not think an ARCOM w/V should be placed above a Bronze Star.

Response by Capt Elmer Lupton made Aug 10 at 2020 11:52 AM

2020-08-10T11:52:17-04:00

At one time, I believe that the Army Air Corps and then the Air Force wore very few if any decorations -- just Pilot wings. I suspect the reason is that there were some very junior Colonels and even General Officers during WWII and their rack would look skimpy next to Army colleagues. But if no ribbons are worn by custom, then no problem. That changed, I believe, when Curtis LeMay became Chief of Staff of the AF. Curtis did, I believe, like to wear his decorations and AF regs were changed to require that one wear everything to which they were entitled.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Aug 10 at 2020 1:50 PM

2020-08-10T13:50:18-04:00

I spent a year in the Saini with the 'Jimmy Carter Peeping Tom BDE"; OK, it was the Multinational Force and Observers, but anyhow... I spent more time with the other Contingents assigned than hanging with my fellow Americans. One of the things I noticed though was it took a lot for the other Contingent Service Members to earn an award vs. a American Soldier who could receive an award just for keeping their personal space clean... or so it seams... So, earning a medal for valor, Yes; a GCM, Ok, getting a ribbon just because you where there.... Nah, don't think that's right...

Response by SGT Kenneth Partyka made Aug 11 at 2020 12:26 PM

2020-08-11T12:26:21-04:00

When I see troops with 4, 5, 6 ribbons BELOW their ASR, you know the one you get for completing AIT, something is wrong.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Aug 13 at 2020 2:32 PM

2020-08-13T14:32:17-04:00

I guess for me feelings are divided. When I received my first ARCOM I went "That's all I get for all that work?!" and for the other I felt "That was nothing, why did I get a medal for that?!"

The Korea Defense Service Medal means a lot to me, most people don't realize the danger we were in during that year of service, but Desert Storm is "Famous".

I guess it all evens out, I met a two star once that noticed I had a better "rack"... did my service warrant it? I don't know...

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Aug 21 at 2020 12:22 PM

2020-08-21T12:22:09-04:00

Let's be real here; somebody getting an AAM for being on 'latrine" detail their entire deployment to BF Sandbox does nothing more than belittle the award and the purpose it was designated for... When I was in uniform, their seemed to be a requirement for NCO's to warp their creative writing skills in writing up a AAM, ARCOM, MSM, just because a soldier was PCS/ETSing and the "Command" directive was "...the soldier 'needs/deserves' an award...' One gets tired of "Gold-plating" mediocracy...

The Service Ribbon can go, it's a "one time award" just for completing AIT, correct? Doesn't the 'Lapel Device' say the same thing???
The NCO Development ribbon... Gone; that you did the school should be on your "brag sheet", and that should be good enough.
Overseas Ribbon... you didn't earn those "Combat" stripes by being deployed to the Pentagon... (well, maybe with all the 'inter-service in-fighting)...
... and different ribbons for operations in the same location??? what's up with that????

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2020 4:06 PM

2020-08-23T16:06:59-04:00

Respectfully, sir: Please stop. We need to spend less time worrying about what is or isn't on our chest and more working on soldiering skills that will help us win today's and tomorrow's battles.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Sep 9 at 2020 4:04 PM

2020-09-09T16:04:32-04:00

Keep everything as is. Valor is distinguished from the atta-boys already. Precedence is already set by the color of ribbons and the design of the ribbon. Valor has always been been given the first and highest order.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 4:57 AM

2020-09-12T04:57:15-04:00

I think with ribbons and medals, there are a lot that of people who do not know what they are looking at.
They tell what a service member did, what, when and where.
Also what Branch they were in.
And there good behavior.

There could be a limit.
But Service, NCO Professional, Good Conduct, Overseas, Leadership awards should be left alone.

I a person doe's not know what is?
Just ask.

Response by PO1 Mike Meehan made Sep 12 at 2020 9:36 AM

2020-09-12T09:36:26-04:00

C'mon, we actually have ribbons for completing basic training in some of the services, and NDSM should be abolished..being in the Armed Forces is "National Defense Service".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 10:12 PM

2020-09-12T22:12:33-04:00

There is a V device for a reason

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2020 12:37 AM

2020-09-13T00:37:25-04:00

Reduce ribbons and medals. If you give the same thing out for every occasion, it loses Its value. Its becoming equivalent to a participant trophy.

Response by Capt Bill Straw made Sep 13 at 2020 8:39 AM

2020-09-13T08:39:39-04:00

Good discussion, I’m for fewer ‘participation trophies’, but I doubt that will happen. Here’s a different view of it....

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Sep 13 at 2020 10:18 AM

2020-09-13T10:18:15-04:00

There was a time, not to many years ago, when I could just about predict a serviceman's record by looking at his or her rack when they were checking into my unit. Valor and excellence were reflected above the National Defence Service ribbon and where they had been was evidenced below. Doing a "good" job rated nothing since that was expected. Those wearing a medal for administrative achievement had done something above a good job.
End of tour awards and meritorious awards for a good job cheapens the significance of those awards for those who distinguished themselves by doing something above expectations. The theater and campaign awards show you survived a tour.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Sep 13 at 2020 2:48 PM

2020-09-13T14:48:43-04:00

How about create a participation ribbon, I showed up ribbon, wait a minute, they already did. Most of the ribbons I recieved were a "I was there or did that ribbon". The best award that I recieved was my health and able to retire from the Military, every thing else is fruit salad to keep straight on my uniform. I was at allot of places, allot of good times, thanks for that Award, that was the best one.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2020 9:19 PM

2020-09-13T21:19:43-04:00

I say tighten up on those awards most associated with combat/valor such as the bronze star and up. But you'll still want awards for doing the day/peacetime job as well.

The Marines tends to be a little stingy with awards in general, unless you work in a headquarters. I think more troops below battalion level need more attention, I just don't know how to get them that attention.

Regardless, and I hate saying this, ribbons, medals, and citations are cheap in comparison to bonuses and they motivate the troops, so keep on giving them out, but make sure pogues like I was aren't given disproportionate amounts compared to troops further away from the flagpole.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Sep 13 at 2020 9:46 PM

2020-09-13T21:46:07-04:00

A bit off question but funny- as a young Cpl at camp pendleton at the NCO club 24 area I felt a disturbance in the crowd, looked up and there in class A's salt & pepper hair and a full board of ribbons, PFC Chevrons! OOPS somebody was a bad boy :-)

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Sep 13 at 2020 10:43 PM

2020-09-13T22:43:03-04:00

Vietnam Era, 10 years of service. Unit Com with O, GCM, Nat Def, Arctic Service and Isolated Duty.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2020 12:28 AM

2020-09-14T00:28:30-04:00

Either way they should mandate that awards denied based on rank as a legitimate* reportable offense. One too many of my/others soldiers were denied ARCOMs because they weren't at least an E-6. Not because their action wasn't in line with the requisite for the award but just because they didn't have the rank..... that's disgusting. FYSA: The unit in question has not nor will it ever be listed as a unit I was a part of (before someone clicks on my page).

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Sep 14 at 2020 10:12 AM

2020-09-14T10:12:48-04:00

Most of us returned from Viet Nam with 3 or 4 ribbons, about the same for my dad in WWII (4ID Europe). So what happened? Viet Nam spawned "the packet". The Army began the packet to include the Bronze Star plus the others. The wear of unit citations above the right pocket was intended for the one or two that exiisted. The other branches, in their wisdom, left them altogether. Then, of course, came the foreign jump wings, DUI, etc. There are now awards (at least ribbons) for everything. The Army uniform is the worst of them all for clutter, but the Navy and AF wins for longevity awards, shooting awards, etc. Just clean it up! All awards on the left side, no DUIs or branch or foreign jump wings on the right. Why do we award combat patches if you don't actually serve in a combat zone? Example; serving in Kuwait when the war was in Iraq and Afghanistan? My four ribbons from Viet Nam tripled (or quadrupled) before serving in Iraq. There are "attaboy" awards for everything. I like the Navy's unofficial tradition of only wearing their "high three", much like Ike did. Inflation and junk. We look ridiculous.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 14 at 2020 10:29 AM

2020-09-14T10:29:46-04:00

Personally, I love all racks.

Response by Sgt Dan Catlin made Sep 14 at 2020 1:27 PM

2020-09-14T13:27:49-04:00

Even when I was in, the saying was "ribbons are there to tell a military man where you were and what you did, and impress civilians." But I always thought it could get to the point of being ridiculous very quickly. And I know some Brits who think we are a joke with all our ribbons, badges, etc. I think the awards for achievements would better be handled as a document given the person and an entry in his service record. Also, medals for participation in an operation should have participation requirements. My nephew is in the Coast Guard (and I have nothing but respect for them and the jobs they do); but he was on board ship, working in the galley and they interdicted another vessel. He had no idea the action had occurred until later, but he was awarded a medal for the ships action. If it was that tame, why a medal in the first place? That's like a supply clerk in Okinawa or Japan during Nam getting the VSM because his unit was there, but he never set foot in country. I think we could stand to revamp the whole system. As to giving priority to awards for valor, those already have a higher place on the rack. Just get rid of all the clutter that makes them look ambiguous.

Response by SSG Tim Thornton made Sep 14 at 2020 2:34 PM

2020-09-14T14:34:36-04:00

I have felt like this for a long time. The way some of these have gone out it devalues the heroism that was put out of those who earned it by valor. A bronze star or even a silver star because of the work when some of our countries hero’s had done something that could had given them a MOH but were taken down to a Silver or bronze star is pitiful and a slap in the face to them.

Response by SP5 Richard Welch made Sep 14 at 2020 7:37 PM

2020-09-14T19:37:34-04:00

Change awards process, to ensure correct medal is given, and folks deserving of higher awards get them in timely fashion. Giving someone a Medal of Honor decades after dying while serving, or decades later after seperation from service in disgraceful. It shows a clear lack of understanding by those in chain of command. It also shows in many cases,a clear bias exists,or existed when time for recommendation came.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2020 6:30 PM

2020-09-15T18:30:06-04:00

I think of valor ribbons are moved to the right side, we will start looking more like Heroes of the Soviet Union. In addition, it seems that medals were given out like candy e.g. EVERYONE got an MSM or BSM when assigned to Kuwait. I have also seen Soldiers that wanted to ensure they got an award and spend considerable time and effort ensuring one was submitted for them or the unwritten policy to give an award for PCSing.

Response by CW4 Robert Mixon made Sep 19 at 2020 6:16 PM

2020-09-19T18:16:57-04:00

Awards are represented not given for a reason

Response by Al Reynolds made May 23 at 2021 2:31 AM

2021-05-23T02:31:21-04:00

I thought something was wrong when I was issued (awarded) The National Defense ribbon in
Boot camp. Why was a ribbon needed... Wearing my uniform said I was involved with National Defense.... If there was to be a award for National Defense it should have been handed me at separation when I received my DD-214 and good conduct medal.... There are two reasons I see for Ribbons and medals..... It keeps an industry alive with new orders (which isn't all that bad) and or giving ribbons is like bribing kids with candy.