Should the military grant a 4 year "General Studies" degree to soldiers whom have served in the Armed Forces?

2014-03-05T15:09:59-05:00

I am currently working with a LTC who is pursuing his PhD and at current, is posing a question for a research paper about the military partnering with higher education institutions with the question above.

In an economy with a financial crisis, and knowing that a four-year degree is starting to become the “standard” certification for employment beyond the military, should the military actively push this initiative?

I know from my experiences, working on the civilian government side, that it is virtually impossible to switch to a GS grade job without a degree. With all of the training and education that the Armed Forces provide for its SMs should that equate to an earned degree after service? If so, why? And how long should
the soldier serve before earning a “general studies” degree?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-03-05T15:19:00-05:00

I wouldn't say a 4 year General Studies, but I think with the training we receive we should at least have an Associates degree in general studies.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-03-05T15:19:02-05:00

I think it depends. If you do 3 years then I think you should get a 2 year Gen Degree but if you do 4 or more then I think you should get the 4 yr degree in Gen Studies. All the training and military schools are valuable. We learn more in the military then most students learn in college. We are able to apply numerous training to everyday life in which an 18-22 year old college student only knows what a book tells them. They have no work experience and do not really know how to trouble shoot in real life scenarios.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 5 at 2014 3:30 PM

2014-03-05T15:30:50-05:00

I have started to teach some college on a part time level.  The part that I see as a problem with granting a general studies degree of any level is that most freshman/sophmore/associate degree programs have a large number of developmental classes.... some of them include English 101, Speech 101, and some type of basic science course...along with others.  In the first 3-4 years of service, most troops are not placed into leadership positions, much less be assigned as a rater for troops.  Even after being a rater, this develops good bullet writers, but not necessarily someone that can place ideas on a page in anything OTHER then bullet statements.  I would hesitate in providing a "general studies" degree for anyone with less then 6-8 years for Associates level and 10+ years for a Batchlor's degree...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 3:34 PM

2014-03-05T15:34:03-05:00

<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">I do not think it is fair to give them a degree at all. They
should go to school and earn it like me and other people I know have done. Most
colleges give you elective credits for some of the stuff that you learn in the
Army. You know how many people would earn a degree simply for being in the Army
and have done absolutely nothing? Most of them do not know history or basic
math and he wants to give them a degree.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> 
</span>To me that is an insult for people who have took their time and went to
college and earned their degree while working or on a deployment. </font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font>

Response by SSG Chris B. made Mar 5 at 2014 3:47 PM

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Base it on the NCOES or OES Schools completed, and years of service say 2 year degree at 4 years with completion of WLC, 4 year Degree at 6 or more years service with completion of ALC and at least one other school (EO, Safety, ETC) And stop the practice of taking college kids who went through ROTC got a degree in underwater basketweaving and making them officers. Recruit officers from the middle - senior NCO ranks and from Military Academies.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 4:31 PM

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This might be a case where it "Briefs well" however there are several problems that would make granting a degree a bad idea. I will name a few off the top of my head that might inspire some thought, however I don't feel that this should be a discussion brought to the table.  Especially, when we all have the opportunity to obtain degrees with Tuition Assistance, Post 9/11 GI Bill, Advanced Civil Schooling, ROTC--Green to Gold, etc.  Here you go:<div><br></div><div>1. Granting a degree would be prejudicial against good order and discipline in that it would generate a system in which many people would volunteer for the Armed Services to obtain a degree without placing the emphasis on education itself.</div><div><br></div><div>2. As many people obtain a degree they work hard, study hard, and balance many of life's challenges during their pursuit of higher education. Would it not devalue their hard work to have someone basically get a degree without the same hard work?  </div><div><br></div><div>3. Why do you purpose it be a "general studies" degree?  Many times the course work for general studies revolves in the Social Sciences and Humanities that include English, Literature, Special Problems, Criminology, Sociology, Major National/Global issues, Political Sciences, etc.  That being said, the "general studies" are important classes so you are essentially arguing that "general studies" are not as important or that "general studies" would be a more palatable avenue for someone to allow for a degree to be granted due to the fact it would not be as if someone was given degree in a specific area of concentration.  </div><div><br></div><div>4. Though it may sound like a great idea, and hypothetically if it did occur, I would argue that the people that obtain a degree that is granted would be far behind and face many more challenges with writing, communication, discipline, and social problems.  Higher education isn't just going to class and receiving a piece of paper.  There are value skills and traits developed that cannot be learned through granting a degree in exchange for service.  </div><div><br></div><div>5. If degrees are granted, the job market and resumes would then be flooded to a degree that those who only had a bachelor's degree would be forced to seek Master's or higher in order to set themselves apart from everyone else.....this is already happening, therefore, it would make it that much more difficult to obtain a career. </div><div><br></div><div>6. Why would you not try to argue that the government implement a specific plan or point system for service oriented careers in the GS system?  You stated it is virtually impossible to get a GS job without a degree.  Fix the System. Don't attempt to create a method of subversion to obtain a career.  It takes years of hard work and dedication. Building on my first point, you would create a new sub-culture seeking to get GS jobs, free degrees, all while they are not expanding their knowledge or social influence.  </div><div><br></div><div>My theory is that the more educated a person becomes then the more objective they become in their thought processes and actions. Essentially, more education and development allows people to become less emotionally attached to ideas and the opinions of others.  More education=maturity and less violence. Think about it.</div><div><br></div><div>I will stop here, I am sure I can think of many other reasons it is a bad idea.  However, I wish you the best of luck in pursuing your argument.  I really would like to see the results.  </div>

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Mar 5 at 2014 4:56 PM

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I could see it bringing a person up to just shy of an Associates Degree, however the requirments of knowing how to write a paper, etc I believe would still need to be attained. Wheter it be while serving or give sufficent credit to make only required classes to graduate with an Associates. but I do not believe that just serving constitutes a Bachelors degree. Pehaps with completion of ALL NCOES and required classes, maybe. I still lean towards no however.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 9:25 PM

2014-03-05T21:25:28-05:00

Perhaps not to the extent im tracking sir. Perhaps having a series of colleges that will collabrate to supply the chance to go to college. As Captain Moss said. It would almost deface the value of the degree from those who did spend the time to earn it. I myself haven't gone to college sir, and I feel it would. Just my 2 cents sir.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 9:43 PM

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<font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Giving a degree to anyone without having them put the effort into earning it might devalue the same degree for those that paid the money, took the classes etc. I know several Service Members who went to school after work to earn this degree because it fit their path they were going on. Going to school while in the service takes discipline to get it done, we receive credit for certain training as it stands that colleges may or may not accept. Going down that path may seem like a good idea but overall I just think it devalues the degree regardless of the Major/Minor or in this case concentration for General Studies. </span></font>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 9:54 PM

2014-03-05T21:54:06-05:00

<div>1LT P.</div><div><br></div>Unfortunately, no. Fortunately, no. GI bill provides a chance to get a real degree.<div><br></div><div>Why settle for unaccredited degree that will be instantly discarded as worthless??</div><div><br></div><div>Get real degree from real institution based on real coursework earning real units.</div><div><br></div><div>Warmest Regards, Sandy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 5 at 2014 9:58 PM

2014-03-05T21:58:06-05:00

The Army PAYS for Soldiers to go to college...you want to just give this away without actually attending college and learning?  We learn very little from our daily duties that would prepare us for a civilian career, much less than one that requires formal education.<br><br>How would one be 'granted' an accredited baccalaureate degree for basically 'life skills'?<br><br>This seems to just be another of societies 'everyone gets a trophy' scenario.

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Mar 5 at 2014 10:19 PM

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Do i believe that anyone should be given anything just for doing something? No... If that where the case why dont Mcdonald Employees get degrees for working at a McDonalds for 10 years? <br><br>That being said... There could be a system that would use military Schools, courses, and programs to help/create an opportunity for soldiers to complete a degree easier than it currently is. <br><br>I think this would depend on the Military Job/specialty. And i do believe that this would be possible to create.  a few others explained why this wouldn't work. How about entertaining how and why it could work. <br><br>Infantry spend a lot of time learning security measures, and the rules of engagement. which you could possibly transfer over to something such as a Security Management Degree. <br>A cook can work towards a nutrition/food service degree. There are degrees that can match up plenty of occupation specialties in the military. <br><br>SO we have the basis that we can connect the two. Now how do we do this. Ill use my MOS as the example. <br><br>I am a 25S. Satellite Communications. If the Signal School at Ft. Gordon ensured that the courses where taught to coincide with a Nationally accredited University we would then begin receiving credit for our time in the school house. <br><br>Now say that what you learn in the School House and ALC Phase 2 are both accredited... and part of the same process and ensure that ALC Phase 2 tests the growth that would be required for any OJT that would be required to happen or expected to happen over the time between AIT and Phase 2.  (the University of Phoenix calls these tests a "<span class="st">Prior Learning Assessment").<br><br>Now you have a standard for your "Major" This would require beefing up AIT and Phase 2 a little bit, but produce a ground work for future learning. <br><br>Now for the rest of the Course work... T</span>he school then can create a component list of what the soldier is required to do, to finish the degree.  at which point a standard is set for Yearly/promotion requirements for each degree that would require the soldier to work continuously over the course of his or her enlistment.<br><br>Using the SSD system require certain courses/phases to be complete to move to the next iteration. These would be your more basic or standard courses. Math, Science, History, Writing Comp. Ect. so at the end of the six years that a soldier has spent in the military they will have Earned a Degree by doing the course work over time. <br><br>I understand the Some MOS have shorter AIT and some have longer but at each one you have certain focuses that may or may not be applicable to a Course of study. If the MOS does not coincide with any degree at all a General Military Science degree can be used. <br><br>If you made this mandatory it could have severely negative affects, however if you made this a program that a soldier could opt into or Enlist for the results may be better. <br><br>That being said i do believe that ALL military courses should be connected to an accredited college that provides credit for each class, and when the soldier that does not want to be a part of this program walks away from the army they still have some college credit from his or her service. <br><br><br><br>

Response by Capt Andre Toman made Mar 5 at 2014 10:28 PM

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No, I fear that would provide a false sense of security for those that serve and say that they have a "degree." The real world experience of serving provides valuable experiences for those who pursue a degree during or after service. I don't think that service can be compared to a rigorous academic program, nor should it be. They seem to be great complements, not substitutes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-03-05T22:40:18-05:00

NO!!!  There is no way that I could equate my military experience with a 4-year degree.  I earned my bachelor's degree while serving in the Army and the experiences of going to school and being a Soldier are completely different.  I think the current system is sufficient in allowing Soldiers to apply for "transfer credit" from their military experiences and schooling.  The bottom line is that even though there are some transfer credits awarded, they will not be enough to equate to a 4-year degree.  They wouldn't even come close to meeting the core class requirements for a bachelor's degree.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 10:43 PM

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<span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">We need to stop overvaluing the Army's Training….. No degree should be awarded for any amount of service.</span>

Response by TSgt Christopher D. made Mar 5 at 2014 11:07 PM

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I do not believe that institutes of higher learning should grant such a degree.

First, such a hand-out would necessarily cheapen the degree, and likely be viewed as a "so what" by potential employers. Second, such a grant would do nothing to prepare the member, through experiencing the rigors of collegiate academics at the undergraduate level for success at the post-graduate level. Third, it detracts from any sense of accomplishment in going "above and beyond" to obtain an undergraduate degree.

Like many of my enlisted brothers and sisters, I earned my bachelor degree while working in my unit, supervising Airmen, and raising a family. I'm proud of that accomplishment. Others interested in furthering their education should not be deprived of the same sense of accomplishment just so everyone can have a "gimme."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 12:10 AM

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no, in fact I think the military shold take a look at the current colleges offering "degrees" and "credit" for certain military activities.

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 6 at 2014 12:44 PM

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<p>I would have to give a definite NO, it wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on, as others have mentioned there is no validation of standard to prove what has been done properly and to standard. Another issue is that AA in general studies would do nothing for you in the GS world of job applying, it is currently so competitive that a Bachelor's is not even worth anything higher than a entry level GS4/5 for most jobs now, anything above GS5 requires a Masters and above for positions in the current environment, so it would not benefit you in your military career for promotions nor would it do anything for you in the civilian sector. And to top it off it would be a slap in the face to every SM who ever sacrificed their time and efforts during deployments and family time to study and complete their degrees that they actually earned.</p><p><br></p><p>Not a good idea or even well thought out for the end state,</p>

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Mar 6 at 2014 3:36 PM

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After 20 years it should be automatic at the very least. I see way too many college grads who have terrible grammar and math skills, cannot find Canada on a map and have cannot form an original thought, but demand mid-level management positions because they are 'degreed'. Further food for thought... a college degree obtained 10 years ago is about as valuable as your high school dipolma. Unless you've kept up with your skills your degree is a great reminder of days gone by.... Military people are forced to stay current. Some jobs in the military are more technical than others.. some more professional than others and some stressfull or dangerous than others, but all require skill, dedication and leadership to be successful. That should be rewarded.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 8:17 AM

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No. Unless the service member actually attends college courses. A degree for doing your job equates to a diploma mill that sells diplomas for life skills.

Response by Sgt Matthew O'Donnell made Mar 7 at 2014 8:19 AM

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I think an Associates would be acceptable. When I used my GI Bill it didn't even cover my Associates degree. It wasn't a lot but I still had to pay 7k on top of everything after pell grants. Everything from boot camp, MCI's and MOS schools counts for something. The American Counsel of Education provides quality assurance and policy guidance to the Army, Navy, and
Marine Corps for military transcripts. More than 2,300 colleges and
universities recognize these transcripts as official documentation of
military training and experiences and applicable ACE credit
recommendations.

Now I'm not saying it should just be handed out after 4 years. The service member should still have to show an interest in higher education while enlisted and use the Tuition Assistance program while in garrison and if possible while deployed.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 13 at 2014 3:31 AM

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I disagree...but. What needs to happen is education equity reform. Enlisted people posits hardship with service obligation and college courses, where as officers career has college built in. Its a tough gig for many. The mission comes first. I went 20 years enlisted, off and on with college courses and still no degree after 20 years of active duty. Many years and tears later... I have a masters now and 2 years post graduate; doctoral learner in education... organizational leadership. 

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made Mar 13 at 2014 3:38 AM

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<p>Absolutely not, the online education system as it is is a joke.  It wouldn't even make sense for 20 yr retirees to receive something like that, since they will more than likely get a job in their CMF or based on experience alone. </p><p> </p><p>We get TA of 4,500 dollars a year, multiply that by 19 years (TA is not availible for year 1) and it's 85,500 dollars for education.  Nevermind the GI Bill when you get out, there are far too many options availible for service members who want to learn.  Handing out degrees would just further water down Associate degrees to be about as good as a GED.</p><p> </p><p>There are some service members who constantly complain that they do not have time to do online college.  I say bullocks, it takes at most 2-3 hours a week for an undergraduate course.  </p>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 4:54 AM

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Sir, I like your question !! Having just looked at my AARTS transcript recently I got I think one credit for physical education and that's after spending a few years pounding the pavement,. The ACE is skewed in their lack of usefulness to military personnel in my opinion. I think something more useful would be at least the award of an Associates level degree in Military Studies. This would be beneficial in that almost all service members would receive credit towards higher level education. The problem with that is there is not enough writing and math skills that I used in basic and AIT to warrant the award of such a degree. This however would definately make much more sense at ANCOC, if they still call it that, for example where there is more course work and time for an accelerated class load. This idea has the potential to retain more service-members since civilian education is almost a requirement for most job promotions. Once again I think formalizing some of your practical education in the military would go a long ways in my eyes.

Response by COL Robert White made Apr 27 at 2014 2:41 AM

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I say NO t an automatic degree for serving.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Apr 27 at 2014 4:18 AM

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Negative, how about the folks that want to earn a degree while they are in turn in the old TA request and register for their first course today. It is free to go to school while you are in. That is more than enough of an opportunity in my mind. If someone really wants a degree, they will be willing to put in the extra effort it takes to earn it.

Response by SFC Brian Mann made Apr 27 at 2014 11:46 AM

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With Military TA, Pell Grant or the GI bill there is no reason why anyone in the military cannot get a degree. All it takes is a little hard work and dedication. I have a BS in Information Technology Management. It took me 7 years to do it but I know I have earned it. I am now working on a Masters which I hope to finish before I have to retire. This also includes any professional certificates. I preach this all the time to my Soldiers.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Apr 27 at 2014 2:09 PM

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I don't think it should be a "give away". I especially don't think a 4 year degree should be given for a 3 year enlistment. That being said, we make all sorts of training mandatory, why can't we make a minimum course of civilian study leading to a civilian certification mandatory and a pre-requisite to attending NCOES schools? Most MOS's have some sort of civilian capability for certification.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Apr 28 at 2014 8:01 AM

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No reason to stop at the General Studies degree. We could just as easily grant everyone a PhD. Then instead of watering down what little credibility is left in an undergraduate degree, we could further undermine the meaning of "doctor".

Most Soldiers who do one term of enlistment will spend less than six months in training and the rest of the time will be spent doing their duty. As a former Infantry Soldier, I can tell you that doesn't help you develop a lot of "life skills". Many Soldiers will come out of the military much less prepared for the civilian world than they were when they enlisted. No need to reward them for this.

Let's keep degrees where they belong, in college. And let's encourage our Soldiers to get a degree while they are in service rather than sitting in the barracks playing X-Box.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Apr 28 at 2014 2:40 PM

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For the longest time I have a vision of what the NCOES system could be. If planned properly this could be the answers to our current educational gap. From the moment you entered active duty your SSD studies are complemented with some general education classes by the time you achieve the rank of SSG you should be a ble to produce an Associates degree in General education. You will continue with your SSDs and NCOES schooling persuing a BA or BS in either General education or MOS related. Completing a 4 year degree before being eligible for MSG. At this point enrrolment into a Masters program should be a requirement before attending USASMA culminating with a Masters in organizational leadership or Liberal Arts with concentration in leadership or Military studies. All this could be done if the right partnership happens between our NCOES system an a University with the vision for this to work. For example a PVT enters the Army as an MP by the time he reaches SSG he would have an Associates degree in General Ed or Criminal Justice; by the time MSG is achieved he will have a Baccalurates in criminal Justice or Liberal Arts and lastly upon graduation from the Sergeants Major Academy he will have a Masters in leadership. This would be the optional following an MOS related path or the Soldier may choose a non MOS related degree plan but the completion milestones would still be the same before the major promotions i.e. AA before E7 BA or BS before MSG Masters upon graduation USASMA. This is my vision I know it may be flawed but I think it with the proper planning it could be attainable.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 4:23 PM

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A General Studies degree suggests general coursework: English, Math, History, Social Studies. I never received instruction or credit in any of those subjects in the AF technical schools I attended. My ability to put 5.56mm NATO ball ammunition on a human-sized target 300m downrange, while impressive, didn’t translate well to either a resume or college credits.

Speaking of the Air Force…

The gist of the Community College of the Air Force (CCAF) is that, in addition to general classes in English, Math, etc., enlisted personnel receive CCAF credit for the professional schools they attend. But airmen still must attend, or CLEP, those other requirements. The best AF leaders I know incentivize their people relentlessly on achieving secondary education, and the AF system itself encourages post-secondary education to achieve promotion beyond Master Sergeant. But, in the end, the success of a college degree relies on the person pursuing it, not the system that grants it.

And what impact would the guarantee of a General Studies degree have on enlistment? To enlist, potential recruits must be able to meet certain physical and mental criteria. To ensure success in the program you suggest, we must now add scholastic aptitude. And to rate that aptitude, recruiters would be tasked with reviewing scholastic achievement (ACT and SAT test scores). How, then, can recruiters expect to meet their goals if merely enlisting is preparation for a college degree?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 7:40 PM

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Many institutions already provide college credit for appropriate training and experience... its a good system, why cheapen a 4 year degree by just giving it away?

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made May 10 at 2014 12:11 PM

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No. The School of Hard Knocks - U.S. Military campus is a great institution of learning, but it should not be a degree awarding institution. I get it, it sucks competing against civilians with real degrees, and it sucks working for a degree in between deployments/PCSes/long hours while on active duty. There is little that we learn in the military that truly translates to being a normal human in the civilian world, and it should be part of our life experiences to reacclimatize to the civilian world when it is our time to do so.

Response by Sgt Lawrence Juster made Jul 9 at 2014 12:27 PM

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Due to unfortunate circumstances, I was not able to use my G.I. Bill within 10 years of discharge. Once I was in a stable place, I tried to get my benefit but they said my time expired. I wish that rule would change. Especially because they took $1200.00 from me right from the start while in Boot Camp. If they won't give me the benefit, they should at least give that money back to the veteran.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2014 10:55 AM

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Yes and No, if it was fine tuned towards their MOS then yes, but no more than and Associates. I say this because I have seen States like WV that when you complete their 6 mos. State Police Academy, you are awarded an Associates Degree through one of their state colleges. NJ State Police require you to already have a degree. So lets take an MP for instance, why not grant them an associates after training or maybe once you make it to the rank of E-5 than you would be granted an Associates. Same with a cook, they could get an associates in Diet and Nutrition or whatever Degree would correlate to that. But No, no to a BS just because, I agree with SGM Quick with the reference to 'Trophy generation".

Also, I'm not sure how colleges award credit for your service, but if the degree you are seeking correlates with your MOS then you should be awarded more credit than someone going for the same degree from a different mos. Not just a blanket amount of credit just for Service For example an MP seeking a Criminal Justices Degree compared to an Infantryman seeking a Criminal Justice Degree.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Jul 18 at 2014 11:48 AM

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I'll add my voice to the chorus of "no's" being sung here. If you grant a degree and everyone leaving military service gets one, then you diminish the value of the degree in the first place. It doesn't serve to elevate everyone to the level of "college graduate," rather it changes the perception of military veterans to the lowest common denominator.

I'll be honest - I learned a lot from going to class and doing my coursework. A lot of things I wouldn't have learned or benefitted from if the DoD had just blessed me with an honorary degree along with my lapel pin and ceremonial flag.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2014 12:17 AM

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I think that just saying "Ok, you did x years in the service, here's the equivalent of a college degree" is NOT a good idea. However, I do think that Leadership Courses, Correspondence Courses, SSD courses, and maybe even AIT should all count toward civilian education. In a lot of instances a service member will get out and then have to sit through courses that they've already done some equivalent of. Why waste all that time on things you already know or are proficient at when you could just move on to the next level?

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Jul 29 at 2014 8:02 AM

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I don't think this would be a positive step. The importance of a 4-year degree has already been drastically minimized, and to simply award them to soldiers without the requisite study, time, and effort would further minimize it.

Response by Sgt Wilby Wolfson made Jul 29 at 2014 11:30 AM

2014-07-29T11:30:23-04:00

Absolutely Not!!!!! Most higher learning institutions (the good ones anyways) are not about teaching knowledge, but rather about thinking critically, understanding and applying analysis within context, and dealing with the World. The Military does the exact opposite. The military teaches and instills instant obedience to orders, without critical thought. The military micromanages and does things "by the numbers" so that analyzing isn't required (except maybe executive or programmatic level positions and certain limited MOS's). And military members are insulated from the "real world" by the bubble of the military institution.

Now before anyone gets angry that I am denigrating the military, none of these are bad things. They are exactly what makes US service members survive in combat and help all branches operate more efficiently. But they are antithetical to the purposes of matriculating into a higher educational institution. It would be interesting to know how many vets had to deprogram to some extent before they could thrive in a school environment (impromptu poll...); I did.

So no, even though an enlistment may potentially provide invaluable experience, personal growth, and particularized knowledge, it is not the same as what a degree denotes within our culture. Granting a 1-term enlistee a degree is unfair to the soldiers getting them because they can't live up to what the degree represents to the rest of the world about them.

Response by SGT Jason Scholte made Jul 30 at 2014 12:43 PM

2014-07-30T12:43:42-04:00

Wouldn't be prudent. If you consider that the Air Force has its own College (and perhaps that's why this question may have originated) it would be easy to assume that the military can award a degree. The reality is we're talking Apples and Oranges when we use the term, "General Studies" and attempt to align it with Military service.

The JST - Joint Service Transcript already covers military personnel for recommending college credit based on courses taken while serving in the Armed Forces. This alone is extraordinary.

The degree alone would be an issue since the Army would need to develop an entire agency to manage the accreditation and administrative aspects of the higher education component.

This alone goes against the DoD budget proposals that have been made public this last year which mandate downsizing over the next several years. So the integration alone would fail from a budgeting perspective.

Partnering with Institutions of Higher Learning (IHL's) is possible but you run the risk of devaluing the schools brand which translates to devaluing the credentials it awards. My opinion is speaking more to the "perception" employers will have about such a degree, and at the end of the day social and personal perception dictates whether or not it's favorable or negative. I'm sure there are IHL's that would jump on the bandwagon for revenue reasons, and that'ts likely the only reason they would... This is why CCAF (Community College of the Air Force) was created to avoid that issue and keep the Air Force education program constrained to only what it believes is going to benefit the Airmen. Frankly the Air Force got it right, but it could do that because it's force structure is a fraction of that compared to the US Army.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Jul 31 at 2014 3:46 PM

2014-07-31T15:46:06-04:00

As a follow up and quasi-PSA I want to pass along something I learned the hard way: When using a school which will grant a degree via online campus/classes be sure to verify that the university is "Regionally" accredited vs "Nationally" accredited. If you want your online degree to be on par with a traditional brick-and-mortar degree producing institution then it needs to be Regionally accredited. The litmus test is to contact a traditional university (i.e. University of Houston) and ask if they will accept transfer credits from University X. If not, then you've probably got yourself a degree mill. Before you spend precious time and money make sure you ask and verify their accreditation status.

Response by CW4 Gordon Eatley made Aug 4 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-08-04T14:40:27-04:00

One only need to look at American Council on Education (ACE) book to see that many of the schools attended by military personnel receive collage credit. Further more The military gives individuals several different type of monetary aide, such as the GI bill and Tuition forgiveness. Many post have on base education centers and schools on them. So my answer is No, individuals should not be "Given" a general studies degree" they should be assisted by the service and indeed, urged to further their education but not gratis, that degree would be worthless.

Response by MSG Cassandra Wilds made Aug 6 at 2014 10:37 AM

2014-08-06T10:37:00-04:00

No. While universities do grant Soldiers certain credits for things like military schools, etc., to be given four years of credit for general studies is ridiculous. We have to earn those college credits like everyone else.

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Oct 5 at 2014 12:41 PM

2014-10-05T12:41:27-04:00

I don't agree with giving it to any and everyone but I do believe some jobs rate it because they're military jobs do equate to civilian jobs. Corpsmen/Firemen/MP/Mechanics. With those jobs you're constantly receiving training throughout your career.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 12:02 PM

2014-10-31T12:02:02-04:00

Sir, I'm proud of what I have achieved as an enlisted man, but basically we are the blue collar workers in the Army's equivalent of the average car company. You don't grant degrees to the workers on the assembly line for length of service.

Besides, as other have noted, the military offers you tons of opportunities to get an education. I got my bachelors on the GI bill 25 years ago. I'm 59 years old now, and once again using my GI education opportunities to train in computer security. I don't look down on people who won't make use of the opportunities they are given, but neither do I want them handed what I chose to work for.

Last point, would you willingly hire someone for a position requiring a 4-year degree based on the award of a "General Studies" degree? No, I'm not saying you wouldn't recognize a soldier as being disciplined, having management experience, and motivated to get the job done. I'm asking what additional does a "General Studies" degree bring to the table in addition to what the servicemember already brings?

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 2:44 PM

2014-10-31T14:44:03-04:00

Absolutely not! This would be a total watering down of the process of accrediting your education. No one is more deserving than soldiers to GO to college and that is why the GI bill exists, but it is an overreach of entitlement to expect to be just given a degree for life experience, even combat experience.

A college degree should be earned through academic rigor, which is not a skill tested in the army. Sorry but it is a different skill-set.

Diploma-mills and for-profit schools have already devalued the education system, the military should not be culpable for the same sin.

Even if this idea did get approved, that degree would never pass accreditation muster so service-members would only be set up for failure.

That being said, expanding what kinds of credits CAN be earned for PART of an associates degree sounds like an ok plan. But I would not expect too much

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Oct 31 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-10-31T15:03:22-04:00

Interesting idea/discussion.

While I would not say that they should be awarded a degree, I would not be against awarding credits towards a degree for specific jobs such as:
Signal: Communications or IT degree
Intelligence: Analytic degrees or something like Public Policy or Political Science
Field Artillery: Math

This would allow the soldier to still earn it and not further cheapen a college degree in this society, which is bad enough.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 3:25 PM

2014-10-31T15:25:58-04:00

I enlisted in the Navy for 5 years as an aircraft electrician before I got out to pursue a college degree. While I learned a lot in the Navy, it did not come close to the type of critical thinking that college pushes. While I would like to see more reciprocity with civilian industrial occupation certifications (RN, A&P license, CDL) I don't think just being in the military for 4 years qualifies you for the type of work expected from someone with a bachelor's degree. Enlisted occupations tend to focus on the 'how' while academia tends to look at the 'why'.

Response by SSgt Nicole Biscoe made Oct 31 at 2014 3:42 PM

2014-10-31T15:42:47-04:00

Personally I think they should... but that's coming from someone in the intel career field. Most places will actually wave a college degree if you have lots of experience anyway. And most places would prefer the experience over college... not that going to college is a bad thing or anything, but I think it is something that should be considered.

Response by SGT Patrick McCullough made Oct 31 at 2014 3:51 PM

2014-10-31T15:51:00-04:00

No, I don not think common soldiers should be given degrees. I do think there needs to be guidelines per NCO schools, as well as specialty schools to convert them to operational credits for certain degree paths or credits for General studies; subcatorgized by electives or specialties. There should also be differing criteria, with regards to mandated daily tasks bestowed upon non commissioned leaders as well as commissioned and warranted officers. The amount of admin required these days by frontline combat leaders when in garrison, heavily politicized or multinational roles is staggering. These tasks should be converted to administration credits as well. I do believe their is a great amount of relivance to civilian jobs, especially larger corporations. As far as operations in business I wholly claim my NCO time built into that equation of work experience. There are several private schools who conduct an assessment towards credits built on your certifications and military job functions and roles.

On the GS scale a little known fact is you are assessed by a computer system. Which means you just frame the job duties/requirements and add them into your cv resume. If this is done successfully you may relate job experience and bypass the lower levels through to around or at GS 8/9. I haven't accepted any GS jobs, but was able to work the system in regards to entry level positions being related to job experience on several occasions. Though the GS application process is usually a numbers game, where "framing" is something all levels of successful candidates in the job field manipulate their resume to reflect duties that match or can be comparable to the position applied.

Try it, the more you know!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 3:49 PM

2014-10-31T15:49:30-04:00

No.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Oct 31 at 2014 3:49 PM

2014-10-31T15:49:58-04:00

I would say yes if it was after 6 years of service. Give a 2 year degree in general studies after 4 years of service.

Response by LT Joseph Jones made Oct 31 at 2014 3:56 PM

2014-10-31T15:56:22-04:00

I would say for certain specialties such as Corpsman there should be additional courses that can be taken of ones own accord that would allow a degree to be granted with a certain amount of experience that is beyond the norm. i.e Corpsman with 10 years, the requisite courses and leadership experience qualifies for a degree in the related medical specialty. The degree should not be a check in the box. The reason that it has is because of the proliferation of the online degree. An undergraduate should require work and a retention of knowledge. If we give them away the bar will just be elevated and a master's degree will be the norm.

Response by SGT Aaron Barbee made Oct 31 at 2014 3:57 PM

2014-10-31T15:57:44-04:00

While the idea is nice, it takes away from those of us putting our GI Bill to use and will make the "norm" for gainful employment become a Master's.

A point that can be made about this idea is: If you work in a support job, there are educational institutions out there that will award an Associate's in your field if you have x amount of years and can pass the required testing for those that go to school for that field. There are also institutions that do security certifications and degrees for those in combat arms as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 4:02 PM

2014-10-31T16:02:01-04:00

Personally, I like the idea. I am not sure what the in-service requirements would need to be though. However, I think there is merit to it when you consider what a SNCO completes by the end of a career.

Basic Training
AIT
SSD 1 - 80 hours
WLC
SSD 2 (Formerly known as Common Core) - 80 hours
ALC (My MOS is 240 academic hours)
SSD 3 - 80 hours
SLC (my MOS another 240 academic hours)
SSD 4 - 80 hours

This doesn't take into account any other formalized training that NCOES doesn't cover that we take from year to year and during the course of a career.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 4:37 PM

2014-10-31T16:37:08-04:00

Absolutely not. In what way does your military training equate to a 4 year degree? Credits, sure, a Bachelor of Arts or Science? No. My BS degree has value for employers because it comes from a public institution which teaches an accredited curriculum. An employer knows that I dont just understand a specific field, but i have also had a certain level of general education in English, Language, mathematics, social studies, philosphy,etc that give me other skills. The military does a poir job of teaching mathematics and English....they dont do it. Issuing a 4 year degree without required baseline instruction, such as additional college courses in the basics makes the degree, literally, BS. If you want a degree,,get up at 6am, go to classes, interact and do group projects. Learn. Freebies and buy a degree online are not the way to go. I see plenty of 20 year vets with no college who cant type, read well, or be generally useful outside their military duties. No degree for you.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Oct 31 at 2014 4:49 PM

2014-10-31T16:49:34-04:00

I can see that for some specialty ratings. ET, Nuke schools, and other things. Even storekeeper should have the option of gaining a degree with emphisis in bookeeping. Thing is a general studies college degree involves math, history,english, science, and phycology/sociology studies and a foriegn language or speach. In ET school, I know I didn't get all that, although an electricity/electronics associates degree wouldn't be amiss. I don't think you could get any college to agree to more than a specialist's certification. Even so, professional certifications that were accepted by the industry would be a step up from nothing.

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Oct 31 at 2014 5:00 PM

2014-10-31T17:00:00-04:00

I always say I have a Master's Degree in International Relations and Conflict resolution from the School of Hard Knocks, a campus of the Benning School for Boys ha ha. In reality, with all the nonsense I've been subjected to and schools I've been to in my 13 year career, I'd say the 26 credits I was awarded through JST was more or less fair, maybe a little shy but hardly worth 120 credits in 4 years, even with a difficult deployment under my belt. It took me 9 years to use my education benefits but that's what they're there for

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 5:46 PM

2014-10-31T17:46:14-04:00

giving more college credit for courses, yes. giving degrees away to everyone that shows up for 4 years...not sure about that

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-10-31T18:25:18-04:00

We already get some college level credits from being in the military. I see no reason to give a 4 year degree away. I think the military and the Gov't and the schools (some anyway) already do a lot for service folk. Being to lazy to go get and use the things you are offered should not be rewarded. I mean if we give a degree away what is next? A Masters for 10 years service? A PhD. for 20 years? I know some 20 year vets that can barely manage their bank account I would not think they deserve a PhD let alone a 4 year GS Degree just cause they survive 20 years in the military. I have 17 years and do not think I have earned a free degree in any educational degree. I attend classes and I have a 2 year degree and am going to get a 4 year degree. Having it given to me would make it almost worthless, anything earned with hard work is worth much more than anything given.

Response by PO2 Sergio Johnson made Oct 31 at 2014 6:38 PM

2014-10-31T18:38:04-04:00

I think that if we are going to offer our troops a degree it should be related to the job they did in the service and that it also take into consideration what job they did and the training they recieved. i.e. I was a Hospital Corpsman (HM-0000, HM-8404, HM-9502) I spent a lot of time in the service working rotating shifts, deployed with the Marines and training others. for 10 years on active duty and 5 years in the reserves - No degree and the civilian world only takes bits and pieces of my training to apply towards a degree.... All of my training should count towards a degree and of course I should have to complete the rest to get a degree that is useful in the real world.... A whole lot of people need to come together on this. I agree it should not just be a given.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 6:42 PM

2014-10-31T18:42:08-04:00

Definitely not. The American Council on Education already offers recommendations on what your military training is worth in terms of educational credits. For example, something like an AH-64 Repairer receives 12 hours towards an undergraduate education while something like Ranger school would receive 9 hours. For technical jobs/courses, some of these credits might fulfill coursework directly related to a major; however, most will just take the place of gen eds or elective hours. From basic training and AIT alone, a soldier could get fairly close 30 hours... not a bad start on an Associate degree.

http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Military-Guide-Online.aspx

Military Guide

Online guide for military students returning to college

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 6:53 PM

2014-10-31T18:53:06-04:00

I think the military should partner with higher education to offer a soldier a general BS or BA degree depending on their MOS. The requirement should be that the soldier honorably retire with the minimum of 15 years of service. Military personnel with this amount of years served have 4 times more experience and education than those entering the workforce with their choice of degree field. Not to include doctors, attorneys, etc. What else a person with 20yrs in logistics can learn in college that he/she haven't learned? This is just one example.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 6:54 PM

2014-10-31T18:54:15-04:00

No, because the military will pay for your higher education 100%. Just because you go through a tech school or AIT, does not mean you deserve an undergrad degree or even an associates degree. Also, real world experience cannot be measured through objective means.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 7:19 PM

2014-10-31T19:19:33-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member, that's a good question. I think granting a 4-year degree for military service is a bit much. I did get undergraduate credit for some of my military training (47-week DLI Polish course, MOS training, etc.), and I think that's the appropriate way to grant college credit for military training. To give someone a degree for serving a particular period of time in the military seems over the top to me.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 31 at 2014 7:36 PM

2014-10-31T19:36:34-04:00

Frankly, I've known some soldiers that ETSd after 4 years as the same idiot the were when they came in, only with shinier boots. No, a degree should NOT be awarded simply for being a soldier.

Afterthought: If a degree were awarded after an enlistment, wouldn't pretty much anyone would qualify to be an officer after that enlistment? (after OCS, of course)

Response by SGM William Vernon made Oct 31 at 2014 7:42 PM

2014-10-31T19:42:17-04:00

The more we hand out education for experience (which isn't equal and often not evaluated) the more we water down the value of an college degree. The Army provides more than enough opportunities to pursue and fund a college education. Plus if we do give a Bachelor degree for just serving, this by rule will keep a Soldier from pursuing a bachelor degree in their field of interest since pursuing a degree at the same level will not be paid for.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 8:34 PM

2014-10-31T20:34:46-04:00

Really? You get a trophy for just showing up, little Johnny! Maybe they should also get an MSM for their ETS award, too. Go to college, use your TA, GI Bill, educate yourself!

Response by SGT Jason Anderson made Oct 31 at 2014 8:57 PM

2014-10-31T20:57:15-04:00

Nope. I do not want my degree that I busted as for tainted by the "giveaway " degree initiative.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Oct 31 at 2014 10:54 PM

2014-10-31T22:54:37-04:00

Such a degree would have no value whatsoever on the job market. That idea need to end of in the circular file cabinet.

Response by LT Brian Langenberg made Oct 31 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-10-31T23:00:41-04:00

No. It will not be respected in the marketplace.

Response by SPC Fred Lytge made Oct 31 at 2014 11:44 PM

2014-10-31T23:44:46-04:00

Yes I was signal and I learned a lot skills you can't get just out there. Specialty skills should come with specialty rewards...

Response by SPC Erik Atkinson made Nov 1 at 2014 7:37 AM

2014-11-01T07:37:09-04:00

Like most others here, I don't agree that a 4-year, "general studies" degree should be easily given out to military members just because they served. In what way would one be qualified to either confer a degree or would it be from just one random college or many different ones? In all my time in the Army, both National Guard and Active Duty, I have never seen any circumstance that would teach an Infantry soldier, chemistry or a soldier in the Engineer Corps, Philosophy. Likewise, I can't understand for the life of me why most don't pursue a degree with their free time versus wasting their paychecks on partying excessively. To each their own, I guess. Unfortunately, there are the few out there that ultimately place the blame on a soldier's command or leadership. I am here to say that this couldn't be more false and nothing short of an excuse. While I do somewhat agree with the notion that a young soldier should be mentored properly, I also believe that the same soldier should assume most of the responsibility for their future success in life.
My point in this is that when I first enlisted in the National Guard many years ago, I took to heart what was stressed to me at the time by some "old-timers". They told me that I should try my best to preserve my GI Bill for after I leave the service (or as they put it, " my in case of emergency school fund") and get my degree using the tuition assistance while serving. I am so glad that I took the time then to utilize what knowledge was bestowed upon me.
I am curious though, why couldn't the Army and/ or maybe other branches look at the Air Force's Community College model for training schools? I think that it might a good idea to not only centralize the schooling but allow for an expanded educational model for learning. What are your thoughts?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 10:17 AM

2014-11-01T10:17:54-04:00

The issue with degrees is the accreditation. Any university and/or college can say “get your XYZ degree with us because we’re accredited!” Yes, OK. But accredited by whom? This is the fundamental flaw of the online/private college market that targets the military for their degrees. Anyone pursuing higher education should first look at the accrediting body and go from there. I promise, almost every Human Resources office in corporate America knows the difference.

A safe bet is to always go with a state public university. Most accept TA and the GI Bill and offer night/non-traditional schedules just like the online diploma mill colleges. AND they are cheaper more respected AND offer a better education. The only drawback is they expect you to earn their degree(s).

Response by PO2 Steven Hardy made Nov 1 at 2014 8:04 PM

2014-11-01T20:04:22-04:00

In the USCG, most of our courses and training is worth college credits. Combine that with the MGIB and I think that's fair enough.

Response by TSgt Tim Walker made Nov 3 at 2014 8:35 AM

2014-11-03T08:35:19-05:00

Though, I do not believe that a college degree should not be given away, the military should follow up on the programs that they start to transition from the military an opportunity to earn a college degree. After retirement I spent two years of visiting my local college admissions office to try to register with the "troops to teachers" program.They had no clue until I showed it to them on their own computer. I finally made an appointment with the Dean of the college who sent me back to the admissions office that told me they knew nothing about the program. I would like to see certification be transferable in the civilian world such as A&P, CDL etc....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2014 8:56 AM

2014-11-03T08:56:05-05:00

Yes, I started college last year and in total base on all of my training I will be walking out with a general studies degree in less than two years. I only needed to do my core studies, the other 100ish elective credits comes from the military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2014 12:43 PM

2014-11-03T12:43:19-05:00

I love my brothers and sisters in arms, but I'm sorry there are plenty of service members that have a lot of years of service and even rank but still haven't developed the life skills or knowledge to be considered "educated" in the college degree sense.

On the other hand, I know of a few people, military and civilian, who have college degrees but still come off as not that bright. That however falls under the aegis of quality control by the degree-granting institution.

As others have stated below, the DoD pays, via Tuition Assistance and the GI Bill, for those in uniform who wish to educate themselves. To me it is still the best way to go. I honestly think that if everyone in uniform gets a "degree" after a certain amount of service, then goes out into the civilian workforce, after a while some of us will ruin the credibility of that degree and of the military in general.

Response by PO1 John Pokrzywa made Nov 5 at 2014 9:35 PM

2014-11-05T21:35:47-05:00

Here are my thoughts.
1. The military does not "pay for you to get a degree". They pay for you to get a degree *if* it is available in your location and your work schedule allows. Want to be an IT or Criminal Justice type, you're probably OK, if you go to an online school or have forgiving hours. Have a flexible schedule, desk job where you make your own hours? Likewise.
Want to be an engineer, or a technical degree the equivalent of your military job [Marketable]? Fat Chance.

2. The cap on the GI Bill often doesn't come close to the out-of-state tuition many states add. If you're still active duty, this may not be as big an issue, bit there's still #1 to contend with.

3. A generic, across the board degree for all military isn't a solution, but rather, if we're turning people into technical experts, a serious look at degrees and certifications earned by their civilian counterparts (when there are any) should be considered. There is something inherently wrong when military technicians are some of the best in the world, but after 10-20 years experience cannot laterally transfer into a similar civilian job just like coming from a competing company. It should be like for like, rather than scrambling to find a school, blowing GI Bill on it, then compete on the market as the "old guy" for an entry level job, when one has done it for decades.

4. Student loans are a bane even when one is young. Older, with a family to feed, trying to learn a "new" career? A veteran may never reach the seniority to make that loan worthwhile, or affordable, especially if also supporting a family.

So in summary, this needs to be looked at, but not in a generic, useless, across the board manner, so much as with respect to making service members actually marketable laterally, in similar civilian jobs, when they separate. If that's a degree, great, a certification? OK. They need to be made available as a part of training and experience.
3.

Response by CW4 Robert Goldsmith made Nov 6 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-11-06T12:30:39-05:00

I don't think that the military should do that. I earned my associates degree in general studies through credit for military training (Basic Training, MOS Schools, NCOES) and college classes. At the four-year level, a "General Studies" degree is the equivalent of a 120 semester hour Liberal Arts degree. I'm a graduate of the Warrant Officer Staff Course, but I don't deserve a degree just because I went to a senior-level military course among the many others that I took and served more than 20 years in active duty service. If a degree is given to everyone, then it subsequently devalues a degree. I earned my bachelor's and master's degrees in the classroom, on my time. If the military wants to award degrees as it does for some Field Grade Officer residential training, then the degree should be in Military Studies or Military Science only. I'm sure there are some exceptions such as TLOG, IT, medical training, etc. Civilians who never served in the military have to balance education and employment as well, whether part-time or full-time. Plus, as government employees, veterans are given hiring preference over civilian counterparts just for serving honorably.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 1:16 PM

2014-11-06T13:16:55-05:00

I am of the mind that this won't work. You don't walk away from 4 years in the military with the equivalent of 4 years of study. Yes your military training for your MOS or Rating should be translatable for credit but there's so much that you are not studying that goes into a Bachelor's that you don't get from just being in the military.

I do wholeheartedly believe that 4 years in a military specialty that translates a civilian profession should equate to a completed apprenticeship in any of the fields that have an apprentice/journeyman/masters type licensing though. I know that some if not all Navy rates are that way, Electricians, Culinary Arts, etc.

Response by Sgt Jennifer Mohler made Jan 17 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-01-17T22:06:04-05:00

Yes, BUT the military needs to align its training and education programs to civilian standards. There needs to be a civilian organization or organizations to take responsibility for these degrees and they MUST be ACE accredited.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-01-17T22:16:52-05:00

I would agree that some MOS's could grant something CLOSE to an Associates in a technical field (think an Applied Associates of Science), but without classes like Writing/Composition, Literature, some type of Visual or Performing Arts, and College Algebra (or higher level of mathematics), any degree granted would be viewed with prejudice in addition to likely having no transferability (meaning SM's would STILL have to take those classes again to get a degree on the civilian side). Additionally, you would have to factor in accreditation (that's a whole crazy other can of worms). If ALL of the branches had something like the Community College of the Air Force, this COULD become a reality...

EDIT: After some additional thought, I feel that maybe the original question really shows a complete lack of understanding regarding what institutions of higher education are really about. I don't know if you're just undervaluing a college education or overvaluing military training.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 10:36 PM

2015-01-17T22:36:23-05:00

NO experience is not equal to a degree. Some colleges give credit hours.

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Jan 17 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-01-17T22:40:29-05:00

Absolutely not.

There is not a problem with using military training for credit. The Air Force does it for the Community College of the Air Force, but there are many that do not take advantage of it.

Just showing up and doing your military job does not merit a degree, at any level.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 10:49 PM

2015-01-17T22:49:15-05:00

That would be nice.

Response by PO1 Jason Taylor made Jan 19 at 2015 12:44 PM

2015-01-19T12:44:43-05:00

It has to be case by case basis, I have done 20 years and have done many schools. So a degree would be nice. If you do 4 years and just get out with nothing but basic schools then no.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 21 at 2015 8:51 PM

2015-01-21T20:51:11-05:00

That would certainly make pursuing a degree a lot easier for veterans, but would it be useable in any way other than honorary?

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 21 at 2015 9:05 PM

2015-01-21T21:05:59-05:00

I like the concept but I do not think it would work very well since the military is not an accredited school. Yes there are schools out there that are not accredited that issue degrees but they are not held in the same "prestige" as accredited schools. Most colleges and universities require core curriculum consisting of English, Math, and social science how can the military relate to the core, it cannot.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-02-13T10:01:16-05:00

There's definitely merit in granting credit for more technical MOSs towards an associate's degree. 25B comes to mind, though I heard that their AIT is starting to get watered down... Otherwise, I think this is going a little too far.

If this is really something that the Army wanted to do (and I'm not saying it is,) then it couldn't be done in four years. It would probably need to be done over six or eight, and somehow be integrated into NCOES - meaning the scope of NCOES would need to change drastically.

We already have the SSD platform for doing something like this, but SSD needs some serious, serious work before it would nearly be in shape to provide college credit. I think I saw a hack last week that let Soldiers skip entire modules.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-02-13T10:05:45-05:00

Perhaps when the Soldier attains the rank of E-7

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Feb 13 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-02-13T10:16:44-05:00

I would argue that a "General Studies" degree is probably less useful than a high school diploma. Not sure who would accredit anyway.

There's time to get a real degree while on active duty, or afterwards using the GI Bill. No reason to play games and pretend we educate military personnel to the extent of a degree, because we simply do not -- and I am in one of the fields that has the most education as part of the job.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Mar 10 at 2015 8:36 PM

2015-03-10T20:36:12-04:00

The Air Force does this at the Associate Degree level to an extent. Members take a few general education requirements at civilian schools and then the Comm. College of the AF melds those credits with military couses. Ta da! An accredited degree is awarded.

The trouble is, CCAF degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on outside the AF. I've got two of them and I don't even put them on my resume anymore.

A military issued Baccalaureate degree would never be respected at the same level as one earned at a traditional institution. Such a program would be a waste of resources that would be better spent on tuition assistance or enlisted fellowship programs.

Response by SPC Michael Johnson made Oct 14 at 2015 12:17 AM

2015-10-14T00:17:26-04:00

i think everyone that is honorably discharged should get a 2 yr associates degree

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 19 at 2015 8:22 PM

2015-11-19T20:22:39-05:00

First and foremost, I like the idea in concept. I also believe it is 30 years overdue. An Army University with established degree programs form Associate to Masters is long overdue and would (would have), and will, greatly benefit transitioning soldiers at every level.

The challenge will be in the execution. Up to now the Army's largely relied on external agencies to accredit its courses (e.g. my former enlisted MOS carried an ACE recommendation of 21 semester hours of college credit. That coupled with the CLEP General Exams equated to 51 semester hours of credit. IF, I was willing to pay a university to accept them...).

The Army should, and in fact must, establish an accredited university capable of granting college degrees and certifications up to the Masters level. I hope this comes a reality.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-11-27T22:41:44-05:00

What the government tends to forget is that inflation is caused by its actions in the market. Huge government subsidies can be found as one of the driving factors (not always the only one, but often a major one) behind the rising prices of certain goods and services from university education to healthcare. Academic inflation is a real thing that many veterans are experiencing now due in part to the government. Giving everyone a bachelor's degree in general studies would make government GS positions easier to attain for some veterans, but will wind up happening is the pool of applicants will continue to grow until the hiring managers have to set additional restrictions for the position, such as a master's degree or five more years of relevant experience in that field. Then where will the veterans be? Then we will have people demanding MSGs and SGMs get master's degrees for their training and experience and the cycle starts again.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made Nov 27 at 2015 10:49 PM

2015-11-27T22:49:44-05:00

the real question is should the military denounce those many predatory for-profit companies selling degrees to military personnel. HR personnel should have more respect for military experience, but the first step is for the US in general to run out of business all these predatory for-profit colleges.

Response by SSgt Robert Marx made Feb 14 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-02-14T11:11:48-05:00

I earned a college degree while on active duty. The rigors of studying, researching, and preparing papers earn a degree when coupled with attending classes. The average service person maybe exercises a lot in body but many if not most never exercised their minds. During the years I was not attending classes I did read a lot but even with that intellectual exercise I would not deem my efforts to be at the level that college credit should have been awarded. I recall my nearly 5 years of living in the barracks that a lot of partying occurred during off duty hours with very little introspection or contemplation being done. I do not believe that college credit should be awarded to service members for simply being on active duty.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 8:18 AM

2016-02-19T08:18:13-05:00

What in four years of military service would qualify as as a college education?

Response by GySgt Bill Smith made Mar 15 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-03-15T14:07:44-04:00

Simply put NO!!! Although I dreaded my time in college, I did sharpen skills that are key to success in the civilian market.

Response by SFC Rob Hawkins made May 6 at 2016 4:01 PM

2016-05-06T16:01:20-04:00

No. We all make the choice to enter the service. Often times we join to avoid going or staying in school. Some of us serve and attend school concurrently. Handing out a degree in "General Studies" for service is not a good idea. Obtaining a college degree is hard, as it should be. When I think about my degree, I often think about the late nights and sacrifice it took to graduate. A big part of getting a degree is the journey. Do you have the moxie to do it? Often times, that is what employers really want to know. I know that my employer doesn't ask about GPA, they just want to see that you gutted it out. To reward someone a college degree without attending college defeats the whole point.

Response by MAJ David Brand made Jul 22 at 2016 1:42 PM

2016-07-22T13:42:17-04:00

Perhaps they could do something like the Community College of the Air Force. Fayetteville Technical Community College currently offers an associates degree in General Studies that fully recognizes the skills and knowledge learned through military training. There is still a need in the Army just as there is in the Air Force to complete the General Education classes such as Math, English etc. Thanks - Dave

http://www.faytechcc.edu/military-veterans/

Military & Veterans - Fayetteville Technical Community College

1. Earn Credit forMilitary Trainingto reduce the time it takes to earn your associate degree. Select abranch to get started: Air Force | Army | Coast Guard | Marine Corps | Navy

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jul 16 at 2017 11:53 AM

2017-07-16T11:53:07-04:00

No way. Everyone coming out of the military with a 4 year degree would dilute what a 4 year degree means. Better to find a way to give specific college credit to specific training. For example, an Electronics technician could get credit for electronics and math that aligned with particular courses at a university. This would lessen the burden of getting that degree, but would still require the other pre-reqs needed that you wouldn't get from the military.

Response by MSgt Jason McClish made Jul 16 at 2017 11:14 PM

2017-07-16T23:14:09-04:00

Absolutely, positively, heck no! You want a degree, go out and earn one. You'll likely get some credits to transfer from boot camp and training school. The rest is up to you. You can basically CLEP & DANTES up to dang near an Associates, but most schools require a "residency" of at least 15 hours. I can say this from experience. I took online classes for a few years and earned a bachelors degree from Mississippi State back in 2011 doing shift work. It CAN be done, but you need the discipline and direction to make it happen!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2017 12:33 PM

2017-07-17T12:33:40-04:00

I believe it is something that should be evaluated, but I absolutely believe that 4 years on Active Duty is not the same as 4 years in college. I would love to hear more as this unfolds.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Mar 31 at 2018 5:45 AM

2018-03-31T05:45:02-04:00

I believe they should fulfill there initial enlistment, and maybe one re-up to qualify.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Mar 31 at 2018 8:54 AM

2018-03-31T08:54:58-04:00

Somehow this popped up on my feed from 4 years ago, wondering if anything ever worked out for this idea?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-03-31T11:23:56-04:00

Like an honorary general studies degree? Yea, that and a $1 May be able to get you a cup of coffee at McDonald’s off the dollar menu if you can bum the tax from someone. There are plenty of jobs available on USAJOBS that don’t require a degree. I just hired four GG13 and GG14 no degree was required. One had too many degrees but that wasn’t why we didn’t hire him. A BA in General Studies is just BS.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2018 12:17 PM

2018-03-31T12:17:36-04:00

Sorry, but the education received during a four year "hitch" most often does NOT equate to a four year college degree. While a hard-charging sailor, marine, soldier, or airman MIGHT learn much in this four years, so very many do not, choosing to "coast along" for this term. Anyone who desires to EARN a college degree can fairly easily do just that by using G.I. Bill benefits accrued during his/her service.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Mar 31 at 2018 1:18 PM

2018-03-31T13:18:25-04:00

Ma'am,
TRADOC is realigning all enlisted NCOES to work toward more accredited course and more focus on academics as well as Soldier skills. However, to get a full degree through the military assumes you make it all the way through the NCOES system to the Sergeants Major Academy (apx 1% of the Active Force). Still, through the Army University, they are working towards college equivalent at all levels. The Sergeants Major Academy is working towards full academic accreditation for a 4-year degree. This assumes an NCO shows up with the prerequisite two-year equivalent courses completed. This also assumes that a student will want a degree in the field provided. Thus, now most must have a Masters degree completed to become an instructor in the Academy. Another reason why the SMA started the fellowship program for E-9s to get a Masters Degree in Adult Education from Penn State.
That is the problem with the enlisted NCOES versus the Officer. The level of education of the instructor and the rigor of the courses to meet the equivalent civilian education requirements. There is more information out there but the short answer is the Army is working to raise the level of education in our enlisted Corps. With that said I earned a Masters by going to school while in the military through Go Army Ed programs and credit for military schools and service. Only took a few decades, but I still had the GI bill if unable to complete while serving. These are great programs, the issue is that each career field is different and the onus is usually left up to the Soldier to get after it. The Army can not do it all regardless of programs and realignment of the NCOES system. There is more information out there I can track down if needed, but, a lot has been in the news lately from the SMA and the TRADOC CSM on what their goal is.
Take Care,
SGM OB

Response by SGT Lee Jamison made Mar 31 at 2018 3:28 PM

2018-03-31T15:28:16-04:00

That’s a big negative. I just finished my associate in general education, the classes you have to take for that you in no way whatsoever get that knowledge from 4 years in the service. english classes, history, math (beyond your common core and basic addition and subtraction) humanities, sciences and so on, not to mention the countless elective hours. The military pays for your education, they have also partnered with a wife of schools who acknowledge the JST and give you some college credit for your military experience. So just giving some a general ed or general studies degree for serving, it’s not plausible nor it is a good idea.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2018 11:07 AM

2018-04-03T11:07:07-04:00

Soldiers already receive college credit for the MOS training they complete. Some earn enough college credit to satisfy a couple of semesters of coursework or even an associate's degree with MOS experience under their belt. Knowing that, I do not see why a General Studies degree is out of the question for a retired Soldier whose depth of leadership and general knowledge surpasses that of their civilian peers. I do not think we "diminish" the worth of a degree, we are simply bringing to light a life's long dedication to Service and wealth of knowledge in many respective disciplines, hence the term "General Studies."

Makes sense?

Response by Maj Bruce Pawlak made Apr 27 at 2018 7:42 AM

2018-04-27T07:42:05-04:00

Yes and No. Yes, the military should provide a way for service members to earn an accredited degree while serving. No, it should not be awarded with no extra work.

I prefer the concept used by the USAF with its Community College of the Air Force (CCAF). The CCAF is regionally accredited... Airmen are encouraged to use the credits that they earn through military service schools and occupational training towards a CCAF Associates degree that closely aligns with their occupation in the USAF. In fact the CCAF aligns their academic programs so closely with the USAF occupational specialties that CCAF training becomes part of the total USAF occupational training experience. It should also be noted that there are General Education requirements so Airmen must attend at least some formal college courses to complete the requirements for the degree.

The CCAF concept is an award winner in my humble opinion and should be considered an excellent role model for other military services to provide that same kind of support to their service members.

And now to answer the rest of the question... Should the military grant a 4 year "General Studies" degree to soldiers whom have served in the Armed Forces?

No. I believe that the CCAF associate's degree model provides all that the military needs... and that there is more than enough availability for service members to continue their education towards a four year degree via local and online universities.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2018 11:33 AM

2018-05-01T11:33:18-04:00

I'm not sure that a 4 year degree is the money maker that it used to be. I'm here to tell you, I am not pushing that on my soldiers, nor my own children. If they want to do it, fine. What the US lacks are people willing to get their hands dirty and take risks. Our service industries are running out of people. Construction trades are very, very high paying depending on geographical location. HVAC, Elctrician, Plumber, Carpenter, etc. All of these programs are offered at most local community colleges and are 18-24 month certificate producing programs.

The Military offers free training in most of these programs. Kids should take advantage of them.

Just a different thought on the matter.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 1 at 2018 7:34 PM

2018-05-01T19:34:14-04:00

Would be nice- but the military (short of accredited academies) does not give or issue degrees. They can only work with the education system to get you some credit for the courses.

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Feb 10 at 2021 12:46 AM

2021-02-10T00:46:04-05:00

Tell him to find another subject. Reading the job requirements for jobs most soldiers go through and NCOS later a test should be given for college credit such as Leadership. Leadership 1, 2 and 3 for instance. ASCE Certification. Physical Fitness College Credit, Martial Arts, Land and Sea Navigation. Real Estate Building Maintenance and such.

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Feb 10 at 2021 1:00 AM

2021-02-10T01:00:28-05:00

Change his subject, it is stupid. Perhaps a way to test and receive credit for experiences that are skilled is annotated. Leadership CLEP test given to show levels of leadership and Human Resource education. Many times they military will say with your experience you are middle management but HR looks at that and just laughs. Reference letters would help in future employment as well before you leave. Otherwise it is like those PCS medals promised but never submitted.

Response by MAJ Philip Costley made Aug 2 at 2021 1:57 AM

2021-08-02T01:57:39-04:00

No.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2021 7:47 AM

2021-08-02T07:47:34-04:00

No. There are no standards. According to this viewpoint every job could issue a GS Degree after being worked in 4 years. Working in any job is an education, but is it worth a degree? No.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 2 at 2021 1:02 PM

2021-08-02T13:02:42-04:00

Soldiers do not generally hone soft skills the way that is learned through academic programs. Also, I worked in the Federal arena for many years post retirement, I know first hand that the average GS does not have a degree. In fact there are GS13 and above who do not have degrees. In any case I do not believe that Soldiers up through E6 in most MOS’s do not learn the skills required of a 4 year general studies degree. Just my opinion.

Response by SPC Matt Ovaska made Sep 5 at 2021 8:05 AM

2021-09-05T08:05:16-04:00

6 of us Vietnam veterans at Palm Beach Jr. College were were asked to leave the campus, after attending several weeks of school. They said the VA was no longer paying for our education. Oh well.