Should the Military reconsider the tradition of requiring a 4-year degree to act in an official capacity as a commissioned officer?

2021-02-09T17:18:09-05:00

The tradition of requiring a 4-year degree started in a time when a college education meant a lot more than it does now.

Do you think it would help change the divide between Enlisted and Officers if the requirement we're changed to a 6 or 8-year degree? This would also achieve a higher average age for 2LT's which may earn more respect in its own right.

Response by SGT Edward Wilcox made Feb 9 at 2021 5:25 PM

2021-02-09T17:25:44-05:00

No.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 5:37 PM

2021-02-09T17:37:14-05:00

No.

I also haven't noticed too much of a huge "divide" between officers and enlisted. Maybe I've been lucky.

I don't think age has anything to do with it, especially when you have prior service 2LTs as well.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Feb 9 at 2021 5:37 PM

2021-02-09T17:37:43-05:00

I agree it could be changed, but not to increase the number of years of post graduate education. I think rules allowing substitution of experience or certifications for some or all post secondary education would allow the Services more flexibility. As late as the mid-20th Century it was possible to be an officer without a degree. Requiring additional education will only enrich universities and enlarge student debt. We don’t need to do either.

If the problem is the quality of the officers coming from commissioning sources today, the answer is to change their military training. Changing their academic education probably won’t help.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 5:42 PM

2021-02-09T17:42:52-05:00

How many would be willing to endure the pay cut to 2Lt from a comparable package for post-grad or professional degree? Age doesn't buy respect, it has to be earned through experience. The gold bar tells seasoned NCOs all they need to know, regardless of age. With an exception being a Mustang with credentials on their chest and tabs on sleeve.

Response by CPO Michael Hatten made Feb 9 at 2021 5:54 PM

2021-02-09T17:54:40-05:00

In the Navy, I remember lots of paths to a commission for enlisted men. The place where a college degree was pretty much always required was direct recruitment into OCS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 6:08 PM

2021-02-09T18:08:32-05:00

Respect is a two way street. It never had anything to do with their age, their degree, or how many years they spent in college. If they treated me as a professional, I treated them as one as well. It was the difference between respecting the person or the rank. I had to respect the rank. The personal respect was earned.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 9 at 2021 6:18 PM

2021-02-09T18:18:13-05:00

I don’t know what to say.

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Feb 9 at 2021 6:24 PM

2021-02-09T18:24:48-05:00

No. I don't need to be chasing down LTs with Masters degrees when they get lost in the woods so they can make a plausible and well informed argument about how they are not lost.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 9 at 2021 6:35 PM

2021-02-09T18:35:08-05:00

I think an older officer set would be better equipped to handle more complex circumstances

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Feb 9 at 2021 6:48 PM

2021-02-09T18:48:32-05:00

In personal opinion, four year degree should remain the standard, but with more consideration of which college/university it comes from. For OCS board or direct commission, there should be a way to screen out applicants who have degree from for-profit school or diploma mill.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 6:52 PM

2021-02-09T18:52:53-05:00

Not at all. College is not for everyone.

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Feb 9 at 2021 7:15 PM

2021-02-09T19:15:07-05:00

Maybe the reason college meant more back in the day is because it was predicated on shaping the soul, character.
Classical college education was originally intended to cultivate an appreciation for the good, the true, and the beautiful (a la the Aristotelean concept of the good) and enhance ones critical faculties.
College has changed, has moved away from that.
More of today's variety of college? No.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 7:25 PM

2021-02-09T19:25:03-05:00

I got curious and Googled "why do officers require a bachelor's degree" and found this article from Task and Purpose. Just a point of view to throw into the discussion:

https://taskandpurpose.com/opinion/2017-military-still-requires-officers-college-degrees/#:~:text=Completion%20of%20a%20bachelor's%20degree,to%20be%20a%20good%20officer.

And this came up on Rally Point in 2015: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/military-officers-don-t-need-a-degree-what-say-you

Here's another opinion piece but you have to subscribe to read it all: https://www.wsj.com/articles/military-officers-dont-need-college-degrees [login to see]

Page not found - Task & Purpose

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Response by MSG Bob S made Feb 9 at 2021 8:06 PM

2021-02-09T20:06:34-05:00

I have several schools of thought on this. I don't think reconsidering the required 4 year undergrad degree should on the table. Enslisted soldiers have the option to go Warrant, which doesn't require a degree, however I do believe that if a seasoned NCO wants to become a commissioned officer then he/she should be able to do so based upon thier leadership ability as an NCO and subsititue formal education with experience, especially in the National Guard/Reserve where many NG/Reserve enlisted soldiers have demanding and powerful positions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2021 8:09 PM

2021-02-09T20:09:41-05:00

This should remain the standard. If a potential leader doesn't have the education to sound educated and the ability to accomplish something long term, then they should not be an officer in the Army. A Bachelor degree is a very low bar to overcome for anyone with some ambition, time management skills, and a bit of critical thinking, especially since it's free in the Army.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Feb 9 at 2021 8:53 PM

2021-02-09T20:53:33-05:00

After one passes 30yrs of age, it's much harder to indoctrinate recruits or new officers into the military culture. Medical care become more expensive. Family problems become more complicated. Social structure of a unit becomes difficult with large age differences.

Career development becomes unmanageable. Promotion pyramid shortens the shelf life of majority of officers. An older than normal O-1/2 will negatively affect the age grouping of senior officers. For example, I would love to reenter the service as a LtCdr (O-4). I would be perfect, but I will be 60yrs old this year. Even if I serve for two years and be the best Lt Commander in Coast Guard history, it will affect the career development of younger officers and leave a two year gap to fill when I leave the service at 62. There are only a few classmates still on active duty and they are Admirals. It's not good for the service for a O-4 to be handing out with flag officers and calling them by their nicknames.

Response by Wayne Soares made Feb 9 at 2021 9:04 PM

2021-02-09T21:04:54-05:00

Thanks for the share Kyle

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Feb 9 at 2021 9:05 PM

2021-02-09T21:05:40-05:00

No it is fine the way it is since a higher degree than Bachelors is required if you want to stay on the Officer path and continue to get promoted. Honestly LT is a learning or apprenticeship position largely anyway. Typically your not fully experienced until CPT, in my view.

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Feb 9 at 2021 11:23 PM

2021-02-09T23:23:53-05:00

A four year college degree does not make you a leader as we have seen in business and politics, but a good foundation. Those to receive commission are interviewed and tested as we do not need another Hunter Biden in the Pentagon and doing cocaine. With online degrees I think the E-7's should have a 4 year degree as well. Thus an E-7 Platoon Sergeant will have the same if not better credentials than the officer and might be able to communicate better. And no a 30 year old with a masters degree in something that does not relate with 18 year old's in the woods. You know they would get some desk job at brigade anyway.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Feb 9 at 2021 11:51 PM

2021-02-09T23:51:13-05:00

I've met an awful lot of degree holders who couldn't apply their knowledge to save their own posterior. Adding to that requirement is not going to fix the issue. I believe Lt Col Jim Coe has a good idea: Fix the programs that are churning out substandard officers. I'm sure it would have more positive results than forcing more indoctrination...oh excuse me..."education" that has already proven deficient.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 1:54 AM

2021-02-10T01:54:58-05:00

A four year degree isn’t a very high bar when you really sit back and think about it. It just takes dedication and the ability to goal set to get one.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 10 at 2021 7:22 AM

2021-02-10T07:22:44-05:00

Actions earn respect, not a piece of paper on the wall. IMO, the degree requirement is simply an easy way for the Army to see if you are in any way teachable, then they start looking at the other stuff. When we look back through the history of the US Military, a lot of Great Leaders were not college educated, Audie Murphy is one that comes to mind, but a lot of Officers came from the ranks without education credentials and seem to do just fine.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 10 at 2021 11:30 AM

2021-02-10T11:30:49-05:00

Okay why would someone who went for a 6 or 8 year degree go Army, or for that matter any other service? I don't see the logic in it. Respect is earned. I have worked with some very skilled MD's, but I would not trust them to lead a platoon of Infantry soldiers. Would I like to see the services change the up or out system? Hell yes, but that is a different discussion.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Feb 10 at 2021 1:15 PM

2021-02-10T13:15:39-05:00

No.

To what end? I’d bet Eagles scouts could orienteer better than most people, let alone a boot LT. A college degree, a map and compass don’t have much in common. Neither would a masters degree help. You want a leader find any man who grew up in the woods, understands what he sees, knows how to hunt and survive you have a potential leader of men. Rank makes no difference here.

Response by 1SG Ronald Rieck made Feb 10 at 2021 3:13 PM

2021-02-10T15:13:49-05:00

I would prefer prior enlisted with a degree as being a prerequisite for Commissioning. We all know examples of how a degree doesn't always make a great leader.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 4:09 PM

2021-02-10T16:09:03-05:00

I don't necessarily agree that a college education means less today than it did 10-20 years ago, but not all college degrees are created equal. If there's room to modify the current policy, it's figuring out which accreditation standards, and which degree fields, are desirable. There's no way a Westpoint Grad should be on the same tier as a grad from the University of Southwest Eastern Reno Maryland College and Cosmetology School, LLC.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Feb 10 at 2021 7:32 PM

2021-02-10T19:32:59-05:00

On the enlisted side you are literally forced into NCO leadership roles with zero college from E4 to E5. Im sure there is a college requirment for the upper ranks of the NCO's but Im not sure what it is off hand. Why is a 4 year degree "required" for officers? How does the 4yr degree help with getting better leaders? How would a masters help get better officers? I dont understand this requirment for officers? Just because you have a degree doesnt mean you have knowledge or initive or any leadership skills. Yes if you wait for a 4yr degree you are getting a slightly more mature person, but one who has been coddled in college. Hardly what I call real life. I was enlisted, with a 4yr degree. Im not sure how that degree would have helped lead soldiers in any way.

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Feb 10 at 2021 8:15 PM

2021-02-10T20:15:14-05:00

Oh man that's funny. Imagine 2LTs that have spent SIX years in USMA instead of just four. Their heads wouldn't be able to fit through an aircraft hanger door.

Response by PO2 Rex Carter made Feb 11 at 2021 7:37 AM

2021-02-11T07:37:22-05:00

Degree not necessary to be a leader.
It only creates an "old boys club"and
Eliminates many good men

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Feb 11 at 2021 9:01 AM

2021-02-11T09:01:16-05:00

Not sure where you get that tradition. I have known and known of many officers that had an HS education or less that were fine officers. As far as the famous ones, Major A L Murphy, TXArNG. I think he was well respected. My Dad, a Naval Aviator, was passed over for Captain because he was an HS grad. He was semi famous, as he got a Well Done in Approach magazine and an atta boy and first Aviator ever mentioned by name in the Atlantic Fleet Safety Bulletin.

That was for recovering Grumman S2F from a vertical pitch up with life raft enveloping tail at 200 feet over the railroad yard at the end of the runway at Chambers Field, NASNORVA Not the first vertical pitch up in a Tracker, none of the others recovered and there had been loss of life. Not sure if he would have done better with a BS/BA.

Response by Cpl George Goodwin made Feb 11 at 2021 9:59 AM

2021-02-11T09:59:39-05:00

Elitist thinking.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 11:59 AM

2021-02-11T11:59:34-05:00

A degree doesn't replace experience, and maturity is not synonymous with older age. I have met junior enlisted without degrees who have been and will continue to be of higher quality than many junior officers I've served with.

The requirement of a degree was a separating factor in years past, but degrees were normally practical back then. Today, a young man or woman can commission with just about any degree. I'm not entirely sure how a degree in "Creative Writing" would enable anyone to be any more or less capable of leading service members than a person without one.

The military needs a steady flow of officers, just as it does enlisted. Requiring a graduate level degree would restrict that flow and would also require higher rates of pay to compensate. Additionally, the likelihood of someone putting their graduate degree to use is significantly unlikely and would basically be a waste.

Basically, the 2nd LT (Ensign) with a graduate degree would still be just as lost and make arguably the same amount of mistakes as one with an undergraduate degree, and would likely have far less job satisfaction considering they would likely be in a career entirely independent of the degree they just sank 6-8 years and tens of thousands of dollars into.

Response by MAJ Monte Montes made Feb 11 at 2021 1:33 PM

2021-02-11T13:33:53-05:00

Was enlisted (4 years 11B). Had the requirements for OCS so applied as a young team leader (E5) after participating in Desert Storm. Received a commission to 11A and went to several schools and finally a PL slot. Applied for and received a degree completion slot after OAC.

I honestly had a slight experience advantage as a 2LT that was obvious on the OBC and Ranger school. Saw great NCOs and horrible NCOs along they way. Saw great Officer and horrible officers along the way too. College attended or lack of college education seemed to have little to do with good or bad. However, it is a gate that is placed in a commission source so leaders can think and communicate like the civilian leadership above and around it. I didn’t really understand that until I attended CGSC and had to think outside the Army. Way outside the Army!

We have a technical expertise position that focus is internal to the Army. That’s a WO.

I’m sure this sounds snobbish or elitist but is far from that. The roundness of that college education didn’t really effect my career until I was a senior CPT or MAJ, but it did effect it.

I agree with other statements here. 2LTs are PV2s who should be trained by solid NCOs. College or ROTC isn’t there to do that. However, it’s helps immensely later in a leaders career.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 12 at 2021 6:06 AM

2021-02-12T06:06:27-05:00

Sir, it is not a divide, rather a structure, developed and tested for decades. You mention that college does not hold the stature it once did, not so sure that is true, many position in the professional world still require that knowledge. Occasional people break through without. There are some MOSs, mostly Combat Arms and some Service support who do not require a specific degree, rather the soft skills learned in a collegiate environment.

Requiring the same leaders to get advanced degrees really doesn’t make a lot of sense, to your own argument. Enlisted Soldiers have every opportunity to advance themselves through college.

I never see a divide I see a structure, the gap is in the mind of the person working within a structure. If they don’t like where they are they have the opportunity to place themselves in a different environment.

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Feb 13 at 2021 6:40 AM

2021-02-13T06:40:47-05:00

Does anyone know of any recent enlisted promoted to officer in combat?

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2021 9:00 AM

2021-02-13T09:00:06-05:00

It's a climate issue. Because the climate for junior officers (O-1 through O-3) in the Navy is so bad, the attrition rate is incredible. So to fill their Department Head quotas, they have to throw a ton of ensigns at the fleet...and that means lowering the standards for who is offered a commission in the OCS and NROTC communities. If you're SAT score is high enough and you don't tank the officer interviews, you're in.

As it turns out, most people don't like being middle management paper pushers who are constantly disenfranchised by their bosses. That feeling of having to fight the system in order to lead properly was probably my biggest obstacle to signing up for another contract (although I still did).

BTW, throwing ensigns at the fleet is also why many of them have made-up jobs on their ships and no place to sleep (I was in engineering berthing OVERFLOW dreaming of moving out of enlisted berthing).

Response by COL Roxanne Arndt made Feb 13 at 2021 3:04 PM

2021-02-13T15:04:31-05:00

In the nurse corp you can only be a commissioned officer with a bachelor's degree. A master's degree in nursing is for those who want to perform at a higher level such as nurse administrator, nurse practitioner, nurse educator. I doubt that a nurse that enters with a Master's degree would agree to be be staff nurse, rotating shifts etc. There is no reason to change the requirements, what would it achieve except reducing the available personnel to recruit from.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Feb 24 at 2021 12:37 PM

2021-02-24T12:37:53-05:00

Absolutely, degrees do not an officer make. So many of great military leaders came from the rank and file of ordinary soldiers. Sgt. York, Audy Murphy etc. I would take a lieutenant from the ranks any day over a educated degree.

Response by LCpl Sandy Moran made Mar 2 at 2021 12:56 PM

2021-03-02T12:56:57-05:00

Hell, I don't believe some Lts . should be officers. Just because you go to a Military School and graduate doesn't make you an officer. Or at least it shouldn't. It means you a good at books. Maybe if they go into the enlisted class and learn OJT they will have a better understanding of what to do. And maybe promote some enlisted men to officer would be better. Just because the enlisted man doesn't like school doesn't mean he's not a good leader. Whit that said the services should rethink what makes a good officer. Because it's not a degree.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Mar 2 at 2021 2:22 PM

2021-03-02T14:22:19-05:00

A college education still means something. It means that you started something and finished it. In many schools, it takes four years to do it; that's quite a time commitment. If you're doing ROTC then you're doing Extra work for those bars. If you're an Academy graduate, then you've been put through a grinder with a military focus, and you had to show some real chops just to get in.

With all that said, Federal Law and DOD Regulation establishes the qualifications to get a commission. By the way, the Weather Service and the Health Service (Federal Agencies independent of the DOD) also commission people. Meet the qualifications and you get considered. Don't and you don't. Federal Law, supplemented by DOD regulations, determine who gets a commission and who does not. This is not a matter of tradition, it is a matter of Law and Regulation, and the needs of the service.

With THAT said, there might be some merit to what you said. I can see a new LT gain more respect if this person had a better clue when reporting. In many schools, there is something called a "Third Lieutenant Program" where eligible Cadets go to AD assignments to "shadow" AD and see what the life is like. Perhaps something like that, after commissioning and before the first assignment, might be worth considering.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Mar 2 at 2021 11:25 PM

2021-03-02T23:25:41-05:00

They used to but were losing so many 2lt's in VN they dropped the College Degree. I was one of those that got into OCS after they dropped the requirement.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Mar 3 at 2021 12:55 PM

2021-03-03T12:55:56-05:00

I place a higher emphasis on competence than ivory tower intellectualism. You need both to a certain extent or you get stuck with people who don't think outside the box, but when push comes to shove I'd rather see a rigorous battery of testing used to determine who becomes enlisted and who becomes an officer. Those who are more physically fit, able to lead, and have the highest academics should be chosen to become officers. THEN, if colleges are so good at making people smart, those who go to college would still make up >most< of the officers; however, if they're not teaching so much in college these days, that too would be evident. By requiring all who enter the service to take the same battery of tests (which would include field testing and practical application in addition to purely academic testing), it would eliminate one of the glass ceilings for our best and brightest entering the Armed Forces.

What do I mean by field testing? What the Marine Officers do at The Basic School when they run the Endurance Course over obstacles for time; what the Marine Officers do at The Basic School when they do the Reaction Course where you solve problems with a team and limited time and resources... etc. As an Air Force or Navy guy, you may not think such things matter but what is being tested is leadership, drive, determination, resourcefulness, and being able to improvise, adapt, and overcome. These character qualities apply generally to LIFE and the cream always floats to the top.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 3 at 2021 2:10 PM

2021-03-03T14:10:04-05:00

Isn't there supposed to be a divide between enlisted personnel and officers? For what kind of change are you hoping?

Response by LTC Martin Glynn made Mar 3 at 2021 7:40 PM

2021-03-03T19:40:47-05:00

The requirement is not up to the military. It is mandated by Congress under Title 10 of the US Code of Law. The actual requirement states that a commissioned officer must hold a bachelor's degree before he/she can be promoted to Captain / O-3 in the Army, Marines, or Air Force, or to Lieutenant / O-3 in the Navy or Coast Guard.

Response by LTC Martin Glynn made Mar 3 at 2021 7:47 PM

2021-03-03T19:47:44-05:00

The requirement is not up to the military. It's mandated by Congress under Title 10 of the US Code of Law. The actual requirement states that a commissioned officer must hold a bachelor's degree before he/she can be promoted to Captain / O-3 in the Army, Marines, or Air Force, or to Lieutenant / O-3 in the Navy or Coast Guard. So as a practical matter, the Armed Forces normally require the degree to be finished before commissioning, because it's impractical to be attending college classes as an O-1/O-2.

The Army used to run the Degree Completion Program for OCS grads who still had academic requirements to fulfill, but the Lieutenants who participated in it had to be assigned to training units while they were going to school, which was not a good way for them to gain experience. It also made them less competitive for promotion than their peers who were assigned to units in the operational force.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2021 1:48 PM

2021-03-04T13:48:53-05:00

In my reserve unit in the 1980’s, it was the NCO’s who had the Masters degrees and not the officers. It is great to. Have a degree, but give me a mustang any day.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Mar 5 at 2021 8:48 AM

2021-03-05T08:48:57-05:00

Lower officer ranks should be a BA/BS. Upper officer ranks should be a MA/MS. General ranks should require a doctoral degree. One of the requirement that should be added to Senior NCO requirements is an Associates Degree. This isn't the old days when spending years in the lower ranks and learning your trade. We are much more high tech and earning an Associates Degree should be part of the standards for career military - all services. Those that apply for and are accepted into officer programs should have a time limit on getting their degrees. For example, an E5 who has an Associates cannot be promoted past 1st LT until they get a Bachelors degree. In the time of need, such as an officer shortage during war time, this can be modified. In this case they should be considered Limited Duty Officers and stay on the enlisted promotion list/cycle. If they are returned to enlisted status, maybe they can return at a higher enlisted rank.

Response by CPL Bob Guelfi made Mar 10 at 2021 11:57 PM

2021-03-10T23:57:42-05:00

Book smart is not life smart.

Response by SPC Matt Ovaska made Mar 11 at 2021 11:01 AM

2021-03-11T11:01:51-05:00

If you are a fool with an education. You are now an educated fool. Nothing wrong with education if you have the wisdom to apply what you need to make a better life for yourself and others.

Response by COL Dave Sims made Mar 13 at 2021 11:11 AM

2021-03-13T11:11:36-05:00

Not to rain on anybody's parade …but a 4 year degree is a poor guarantee of military success. So much of what we do is a willingness to step forward and lead....all the rest is cosmetic. General David Jones, former Chairman of the JCS (and as I recall flew on the Doolittle Mission) was a college dropout. My own enlistment in the Army was a dim recognition that I was caught up in " wine, women and song". The best officers, I think, are the ones focusing on the mission, problem solving and who are people oriented. How you measure this I am uncertain ..but just having a degree is not at the top of my list. I am not against formal education-( have a BA, MA and MBA - all summa cum laude)....but real success in the Army is a tough challenge and no one cares where you went to school.

Response by LCDR Mike Morrissey made Mar 14 at 2021 12:25 PM

2021-03-14T12:25:31-04:00

My experience with obtaining a 4 yr degree through the NROTC convinced me that while there is an education there is also a measurement of commitment which in itself has any number of characteristics. The four year degree is no guarantee but it sure is a weeding out process. At the time of my entering the NROTC, the unit CO, a Cdr,, told us to “look to your left and right, only one of you will be here at the end.” He was right. I’m no scholar but the four years not only addressed an education but also a maturation for the 18 yr old who comes out at 22. (Keep in mind that it is now often taking 5-6 yrs to get the degree.)

I was fortunate as my dad, a WWII B-17 vet, drilled into me to always take care of your people. Whatever goes wrong, you own. Whatever goes right, pass it along. Unfortunately, I’ve seen fellow officers who seemed to think enlisted were a lesser class. However while they stood out, they were the minority. Unfortunately they colored the opinion of the enlisted for years to come.

During the VN era, unit cohesion was nearly nonexistent as once a unit.deployed, officers (and others) came and went in one year random increments. There wasn’t the Band Of Brothers cohesive unit where the predeployment work up build cohesion and eliminated the sundowner Captain

I’m hoping that the current deployments and return of units has reduced the churn. The VN experience has certainly had long term adverse influence on the reputation of the different officer corps. It only takes one failure to color the vat.

Response by LCpl Sidney Green made Mar 15 at 2021 11:14 PM

2021-03-15T23:14:53-04:00

Considering all the latest advancements in technology, a post-secondary education is even more important today than it was in the past. However, the military doesn't need to go any further then the tradition 4-year degree for a commissioned officer. That's more than sufficient to accomplish the mission from an individual cost to value perspective.

Response by SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM made Mar 20 at 2021 10:42 AM

2021-03-20T10:42:01-04:00

I have always believed that Officers and NCO had two very distinct and complEmentary roles. Officers were objective determinators and resource managers. NCOs determined the resources needed and how to accomplish the desired objective for the Officer. I saw those lines start to blur when I was in and it was that "Officers trying to be NCOs and NCOs trying to be Officers" that made me decide that as soon as I could I'd retire and be done. Just MHO...

Response by LTC John Wilson made Mar 22 at 2021 10:19 AM

2021-03-22T10:19:07-04:00

If a Four-Year Degree actually conferred the education it did 30-odd years ago, then, No, an undergraduate degree is sufficient. But it appears that too many undergraduate institutions have abandoned reason, embraced Critical Theory, and no longer teach a person what is required to be effective as a commissioned officer -- they no longer equip them to think logically or independently.

And tacking graduate requirements atop such a weak, intellectual foundation from the same institutions only amplifies the problem.

Response by SGT Gary Tob made Mar 23 at 2021 2:46 PM

2021-03-23T14:46:47-04:00

Well Audie Murphy for one wouldn't have been promoted with that way of thinking.

Response by MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan made Mar 26 at 2021 1:24 AM

2021-03-26T01:24:41-04:00

Education does not make a leader nearly as much as experience. As a new lieutenant, with no prior military experience, lean heavily on the senior NCOs in your unit who have done the job and have the insights to train you as a leader. That's not meant to be a take down, just a point of how best to learn to ins and outs of a new environment.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2021 6:10 PM

2021-03-26T18:10:38-04:00

I would much rather give officer rank to a gung ho motivated entrepreneur type than to someone who just hashed out a likely useless BA or BS degree. I would look more at successful credit hours and other life experiences.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Mar 28 at 2021 9:04 AM

2021-03-28T09:04:41-04:00

No.
I have held commissioned slots a few times as an E-6 and E-7.

Response by CPT Christopher Stanco made Apr 29 at 2021 7:41 AM

2021-04-29T07:41:15-04:00

Yes.........But.

Response by CPT Christopher Stanco made Apr 29 at 2021 7:42 AM

2021-04-29T07:42:54-04:00

I think 4 yrs as a non-com should be required as well.

Response by SrA James Cannon made May 6 at 2021 12:33 PM

2021-05-06T12:33:58-04:00

I personally think they should do away with the 4-year degree requirement. My opinion only is that they should administer some sort of test similar to a college entrance exam. Candidates who score high enough could be admitted to officer candidacy. Applicants who do have a degree could be exempted from the exam.

Response by PO2 Jon Coulter made May 12 at 2021 5:10 PM

2021-05-12T17:10:30-04:00

Degrees are nonsense. A degree in philosophy or basket weaving will not make a good leader or fighter. Better the old third degree to see how well candidates perform under pressure. The Academies or West Point provide that testing. OCS needs mentoring by senior officers, not divisiveness caused by colloege. The first thing is to win wars, best dpne by teamwork and trust.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2021 7:22 PM

2021-05-20T19:22:06-04:00

You going to raise their pay to match?

Also, LDOs would like to remind you that no degree is actually required to earn a commission.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2021 4:20 PM

2021-05-21T16:20:43-04:00

I don't think so. There are many enlisted with 4 year degree. What really matters is the type of education on degree. Officers with 4 or 5 years degree, these degrees are often not applicable to the daily operation of the military. Offering the training to officer as those offered to the enlisted will get them.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made May 24 at 2021 12:34 PM

2021-05-24T12:34:48-04:00

No. Any NCO can carry out the duties assigned to a 1st or 2nd Lt. Just is those NCOs won't be held accountable as much as those officers

Response by SPC Alisha Dick made Jun 4 at 2021 2:41 AM

2021-06-04T02:41:14-04:00

Given many enlisted have a bachelor's degree and it's possible to obtain by 18 years old or younger. I had my bachelor's degree at 18 yo and my daughter majored in Meteorology and Atmospheric sciences and Astronomy and Physics and is graduating at 18 yo. She started college at 14. The bachelor's degree is little more than what high school should be, even in highly ranked programs. So, I propose this system.
To be eligible for commission: Bachelor's degree plus a minimum of 4 years enlisted
Captain eligibility: Master's degree
General eligibility: PhD

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Jun 6 at 2021 11:13 PM

2021-06-06T23:13:35-04:00

I got my degree after the military. I am going to say that degree did not help me find any extra leadership skills so I am already convinced college students aren't the answer to being commissioned officer. What needs to be done is screening officer candidates based on experience more than education because that young E5 in any service already gets more respect than an O1, O2, or O3. If the dour year degree is going to be required, then screen the education of said candidate. I had an O1 in a transportation squadron with a degree in Interior Decorating. Her knowledge wasn't a help in loading an aircraft or repairing a vehicle and she was actively killing any respect she might have gotten from NCOs by sleeping around in the enlisted barracks. That's a lot of education to be a simple hooker.

Response by LTC Thomas Foster made Jul 10 at 2021 12:10 AM

2021-07-10T00:10:52-04:00

It was not a requirement to have a four-year degree when I was commissioned in 1983, only to have more than 2 years of college. I completed my degree as a Captain under the Degree Completion Program - a DA assignment at Ft Benjamin Harrison with duty at Columbus College in Columbus, GA.

Response by LTC Thomas Foster made Jul 10 at 2021 12:14 AM

2021-07-10T00:14:01-04:00

It was not a requirement to have a four-year degree when I was commissioned out of OCS as an Infantry 2LT in 1983. I completed my degree as an Infantry Captain under the Degree Completion Program - actual assignment after IOAC with assignment at Ft Benjamin Harrison with duty at Columbus College.

Response by LTC Edward Clark made Jul 12 at 2021 2:39 PM

2021-07-12T14:39:08-04:00

Officers who need advanced degrees to perform their duties start to be selected at the Sr Captain - Major levels. Sometimes higher. Requiring them to serve as a junior officer is fruitless.

Response by COL John Power made Jul 21 at 2021 12:13 PM

2021-07-21T12:13:14-04:00

What some of the responses fail to recognize is that the requirement for a college degree is not driven to provide for a capable LT or CPT. Officer careers are a development process. While you are placed in positions of responsibility and expected to perform, you are also being trained and evaluated. The Army has a career development process that essentially doesn't "utilize" your development and growth until you actually reach the O-6 level. At that point you start to command large formations, manage substantial amounts of money or other resources or are in significant policy development positions. The assignments and additional schooling leads to that. And the educational background positions you to be more receptive and responsive to the process.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Jul 24 at 2021 8:05 AM

2021-07-24T08:05:45-04:00

Being book smart does not make you a good leader.

Response by PO1 Mike Wallace made Aug 1 at 2021 2:13 PM

2021-08-01T14:13:10-04:00

Leaders whether officer or enlisted must have very very good judgement and exercise it. I don't see that being taught in our places of higher learning. Leaders are also required to be able to get people to do things that sometimes goes against their human nature such as running towards the battle and not away from it. Having 4 6 or 8 more years education does not a leader make.
If you think advanced degrees are beneficial I'm curious what kind of subject matter you had in mind.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Aug 9 at 2021 7:54 PM

2021-08-09T19:54:12-04:00

I think the length in years really not the issue it is the type of degree they have and witch so called college they went to.
With most colleges teaching hate and distain for America and the Military.
Along with there Marxist ways.
Now i am also of the opinion that all Officer's should be Enlisted for at least two years before they get their Commission so they have a clue about the last minute duties they hand out ,With NO understanding of the real time it takes to get them done.

Response by SGT William Hawkins made Aug 24 at 2021 2:48 PM

2021-08-24T14:48:10-04:00

Too many are educated beyond their learning ability.

Response by SSG Paul Carrier made Aug 24 at 2021 6:31 PM

2021-08-24T18:31:41-04:00

I'd be in favor of requiring an officer to achieve NCO rank before considering them for commissioning.
Other than aviation warrants it is pretty much what we do in the WO corps for quartermaster and maintenance branches

Response by SGT Lenise Hamilton made Aug 27 at 2021 5:25 PM

2021-08-27T17:25:12-04:00

Often times officer have sense but no common sense, we all know who do all the work, enlisted members without a doubt, and the officer's are caught foaming at the mouth for all the credits.

Response by 2LT Dave Williams made Aug 28 at 2021 5:08 PM

2021-08-28T17:08:26-04:00

Seems like a lot of the answers are missing an important point. A college or university degree really reflect an ability to conduct research and make decisions based on multiple sources of information. The actual degree doesn’t matter.
There is still the opportunity for direct commission, so quality people can advance.

Response by SSgt Dexter Dearth made Aug 28 at 2021 11:27 PM

2021-08-28T23:27:49-04:00

No, it should still be a requirement as well as a path for exceptional NCO's to become Officers based on their experience and education. It was a sad day when the USAF did away with WO's...these were the technical experts that thrived in their field of expertise. Saying that my Aircraft commander had a degree in Physical Education, was short, fat, and balding as a Cpt, also was a poor pilot and leader. My 1Lt Co-pilot was a AF Academy grad and was a great person, good pilot, and had my respect...not so much for the A/C. Needless to say, I went out of my way to help my 1LT because he was a good person and Officer.

Response by PO1 Charles Smith made Sep 7 at 2021 2:05 AM

2021-09-07T02:05:27-04:00

let me start out with a story that was told to me. "General Grant was going to promote one of three second lieutenants; they all appeared the same on evaluations, so he decided to interview them, by asking them how they would go about placing a flagpole on the parade ground. the first one, immaculately dressed, talked about digging the hole correctly, and having the pole the correct length. the general said okay and called the second candidate in. this parade ready gentleman talked about finding the correct regulations to insure it met standards. the general said okay and called in the next candidate. This young man look like he was bewildered to be there and had slept in his uniform. when grant asked his question, his response was ," why the fuck would the General ask me, you just grab the first Sargent walking by and tell him to put up a a goddamed flagpole". Grant said "you are promoted."
The first thing one must understand is what is the job of enlisted and what is the job of Officers. In my opinion, enlisted are internal, there to make things function smoothly within their purview. Officers are to have their eyes on the external and make decisions. Officers need an understanding of what enlisted do, but should only be managing them through the senior NCO under them.
first off I would keep the service academies and ROTC programs. I would get rid of anything that smacks of hazing. Being a Robert A Heinlein fan, I would add classes that no grade is given, but at the end of their Schooling, an independent board of senior enlisted and officers would evacuate each graduate based on their record generated at the school to include the ungraded courses instructor evaluation and the term papers they had written as to the acceptability as an officer. They might also designate some to 02 or in rare cases 03 (this would be subject to a separate board and submitted to congress.)
I would take a lot more officers from the enlisted ranks then is currently done. I would allow any enlisted to apply for it. but they would have to enter an approved educational program. They would also have on their periodic evaluations a fitness for consideration in becoming an officer. Once they feel ready, they can apply for commission OR be recommended for commission by the CO of their unit. They would be boarded for fitness, then sent to OCS with the same ungraded classes except at a higher pace, evaluated by the standing board at OCS, with the same rank consideration as before with the caveat that their rank evaluation would include time in service consideration. Most should be able to become 02s.
I was a big fan of WWII submarine warfare. My heroes were people like "Mush" Morton and Richard O'Kane. I followed how The aircraft carrier supplanted the battleship. How no matter how you dice it, Cruisers are the unsung workhorse of the navy.
I also followed how politics both enabled and hindered WWII in Europe. No matter how much the active duty are supposed to stay out of politics, they must be aware of that that affects the armed forces. I recognize that 01-03 are really training ranks. I also recognize, from problems encountered in WWII that a great peace time officer may not be able to do a good job as a wartime CO.
Okay it may appear that I have strayed of subject, but we need the education, but we need specific things that are not taught in our high schools; how think critically, how to read critically, how to learn on our own, how to evaluate information (what info is subjective, what is objective.)
To me, the only way you could make the divide between Enlisted and Officer the smallest, is to have All officers come from prior enlisted; but this might not give us enough 01 to 03 to weed out to get the number of 04 and above that are needed.
Added note: I would have the space force come exclusively from prior active duty, officer and enlisted, the other armed forces to include the coast guard. Space is more unforgiving than any battle field ever encountered and we cannot suffer any fools here.

Response by LT Robert Kennedy made Sep 15 at 2021 6:28 PM

2021-09-15T18:28:07-04:00

Personally, I would like to see the college degrees removed as any kind of requirement for a commission. Instead I propose that all officers be drawn form the enlisted ranks and attend OCS, regardless of Branch. This would eliminate the service academies and save the a few 100 million a year for the services.

Response by SSgt Veronica Fraga made Sep 15 at 2021 6:46 PM

2021-09-15T18:46:29-04:00

NO! Hell no!
I have long held that everyone should be treated fairly regarding who gets to become officers. The military sends to OCS any dipshit who managed to finish college, whether or not Mommy was writing all his school papers because he didn't have the critical thinking capacity, let alone English grammar, to do it himself (true story!). Then, the military develops Bootstrap programs for enlisted people that are impossible to get into. My dream is that EVERYONE goes through Basic and Tech School for their assigned field. Then those wanting to go Officer Track spend 2 years working as a grunt. It's disgraceful the way many junior officers treat enlisted members. They have been trained to believe they are BETTER than us! And so many promising enlisted people will never be allowed to pass through that glass ceiling.

Response by SSgt Veronica Fraga made Sep 15 at 2021 6:48 PM

2021-09-15T18:48:14-04:00

Oops! YES! Reconsider!

Response by SSgt Veronica Fraga made Sep 15 at 2021 6:53 PM

2021-09-15T18:53:51-04:00

BTW, I'm prior enlisted. Since then I've finished college and earned 2 master's degrees. I'm no "better" equipped to become an officer now, than any enlisted member or NCO. I've just read more books.

Response by SGT Erick Holmes made Sep 19 at 2021 6:25 PM

2021-09-19T18:25:22-04:00

Do you really need a degree to lead troops to battle, to take care of them in need and put a foot in their a÷× when then need it. Does a degree help when your troops are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice without notice in order for you to finish your degree. Is there a degree requirement when officers are there in the fox hole with you and letting you know everything is going to be all right. Finally does the degree certify you when you have to tell Soldiers family the reality of something bad has happen. No it doesn't. The ARMY or any other branch will teach you everything you need to know about any and all situations and if you can't get the answer now, we'll get back to you with the answer.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Sep 27 at 2021 12:43 AM

2021-09-27T00:43:12-04:00

To many officers already come in with out enough sense. Now, you think extending it out further will help? I assume the 2LT already has the advanced degree, to be asking the question.
Sadly too many officers already come in with enough of a disconnect from those they are working with. Sorry, but college does not magically bestow leadership skills. Some degrees do provide a little leadership and admin training, but with very little application. Obviously Military academies would be exceptions to this, but you then deal with a different kind of disconnect.
Personally I would rather deal with an officer who has worked through the ranks, and gained that leadership role based on merit, skill and standing out above his peers (Degree or No Degree).
However, once a person hits a masters degree, or higher, they are more likely to persue the pay and comfort, such a degree can offer. So unless they get a "professional pay" stipend, most wouldn't even consider the discomforts of military life, and leaving the military with a few exceptions and a lot of dregs.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2022 1:50 PM

2022-02-16T13:50:19-05:00

No. If anything require successful completion of a 2-3 year enlisted contract on the front end prior to commissioning. That will earn far more respect up front that an old 2LT with a Masters Degree.

Response by SFC David Johnson made Feb 16 at 2022 2:14 PM

2022-02-16T14:14:14-05:00

People are going to get lost with 4 years or 6 years college. I have seen desk jockeys with zero college, nail land navigation and watched 11B SSG’s get “disoriented”. Not everyone can see the picture.

Response by SPC Paul Hayward made Feb 16 at 2022 2:26 PM

2022-02-16T14:26:33-05:00

new officers already have an "i'm more educated" attitude towards the enlisted ranks, they don't need more college, they need to be more humble in knowing that they don't know everything, as the old saying goes "wisdom is knowing that you don't know" and these young officers need to look at the enlisted troops, especially those that have been serving for many years (e-5 and up) as the ones to look to for guidance on how to lead and how to take care of those they are in charge of, they don't need more "education" to do that

Response by SSG Douglas Espinosa made Feb 16 at 2022 3:48 PM

2022-02-16T15:48:38-05:00

A degree doesn't necessarily make someone a good leader or even smart. I've met folks that were dumb as bricks with Doctoral degrees. Even on the Civil Service side. I always remember what my father taught me. A degree is just a piece of paper saying you are trainable. And half of these graduates ain't even trainable...It depends on the person. I do have to say it helps though. I am glad I used my GI Bill after the service and earned my degree, but it didn't help me in Civil Service either.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2022 3:56 PM

2022-02-16T15:56:34-05:00

Generally, O's are out of touch when it comes to the capabilities of the troops they're assigned over. Having someone with a Master's. . . Even MORE out-of-touch with even LESS practical experience. So, we'd end up with 26-or-so year old butter bars with plenty of exercises in theory, trying to use theory to persuade a 25-y/o E5 who has ACTUALLY BEEN DOING THINGS (while you were in college) that you are somehow correct, because your Master's says you're smart.

Also, your age won't earn you any respect. If AGE is your metric. . . Wow, you area dead-ass wrong and should just get out of the military.

CAPABILITY is THE metric. Whether you're an idiot with a Bachelor's or an idiot with a Master's, you'd still be an idiot (not YOU, as in "you, the OP"; "you" as "in general"), you'd just be more of a pompous, "I hAvE a MaZtUrZ!!!"-idiot.

Response by TSgt William Kaelber made Feb 17 at 2022 3:08 AM

2022-02-17T03:08:26-05:00

Nope...but the courses/degrees should be tangible, like engineering, medical and such...
none of that horse crap "business", "management" or "P.E." major type degrees.
If they can't do math or have a hands on skill with the degree...they need not apply for an Officer position, they are otherwise as useful as a fresh out of High school recruit, and should be seen as such.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Feb 17 at 2022 1:33 PM

2022-02-17T13:33:13-05:00

A 4-year degree is hard enough to achieve. While it might not prevent a new 2LT from getting lost in the woods, it does lay a solid foundation for a Commissioned Officer to start on their leadership track.

Response by COL Eric Wishart made Feb 17 at 2022 10:24 PM

2022-02-17T22:24:01-05:00

As a former Brigade Commander and Professor of Military Science, I believe a four year degree is totally sufficient. Developing a Junior officer is, in my humble opinion, a three phase event. Time in ROTC or at a military academy provides basic indoctrination and inculcates the candidate/cadet in military culture. Their basic course gives them a very basic understanding of their branch and some very mild exposure to their craft. It is finally in their first leadership assignment as a platoon leader or platoon commander in the USMC where they are forged as leaders. A master’s degree is not going to make them a better small unit leader. A good platoon sergeant will do that. The higher education is important at mid-career to develop officers in strategic thinking, and getting a more balanced world view.

Response by SGT Ed Greenslit made Feb 18 at 2022 8:29 AM

2022-02-18T08:29:46-05:00

Prefer that to be an officer they be enlisted first. It’s easy to give someone an order to do something you’ve never done.