Should the NCO rank be on the sleeve (like USAF) on the combat uniform?

2014-10-12T19:43:03-04:00

BLUF: Should the NCO rank be on the sleeve (like USAF) on the combat uniform? (and Class B)?

I heard an interesting theory a couple weeks ago. NCOs are the "backbone" of the Army. (and the rest of the services). On the current ACU uniform as well as the Class B, you really have to be "right up on" someone in order to see the rank. The perspective I received (from another service officer) is that the Army is "reducing" the value of the rank by making it harder to distinguish. Take the example of an E8 and E9 rank on the ACU. We have all mis-identified that.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 7:49 PM

2014-10-12T19:49:06-04:00

CSM Private RallyPoint Member, I know just what you mean. It's tough to know whether to call a senior NCO First Sergeant or Sergeant Major, based on the rank as it is. (Is that a diamond or a star? Very hard to tell.) Nevertheless, I think the rank insignia is where it belongs.

Response by SPC Dave St.Andrew made Oct 12 at 2014 7:49 PM

2014-10-12T19:49:15-04:00

Great post CSM Private RallyPoint Member, my biggest fear in life is accidentally mistaking a E-8/E-9 because my eyes are horrible and I have to be right on them to see the rank. haha, make it visible so even us blind guys can see it.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Oct 12 at 2014 8:03 PM

2014-10-12T20:03:40-04:00

And get rid of this ridiculous uniform.. Bdus were a better uniform by far

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 12 at 2014 8:48 PM

2014-10-12T20:48:27-04:00

CSM Private RallyPoint Member, I had a thought along that line regarding when the Marines wear the woodland patterned CCU ... All the ranks just looks like a black blob (officers included when they do the subdued field rank)!

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 12 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-10-12T22:38:53-04:00

As the Air Force is the only one with it on the sleeve they seem to be the out liner. I do think that one combat uniform across all branches would be idea. If we look at the Marines that do not wear any rank on the MARPAT. They know who's who in their CoC.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Oct 12 at 2014 11:06 PM

2014-10-12T23:06:26-04:00

I may be out now, but even the old collar tabs were hard to see at times... (besides alcohol related moments) They should go back to the sleeve or the collar. But in the middle of the chest seems dumb...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 11:24 PM

2014-10-12T23:24:04-04:00

Unless the Army is going to redesign the uniform to fit the rank on the sleeve or give us a uniform that we can press, we need to leave well enough alone.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 11:50 PM

2014-10-12T23:50:41-04:00

Two comments that work for their respective branches. The AF clearly distinguishes between its officers and enlisted based on rank placement. Only the officers have rank on the collar just as only the enlisted wear rank on the sleeves. Makes it very easy to pick out people at a distance. I also like what the Marines do, where enlisted wear subdued rank at all times and the officers wear non-subdued rank in garrison.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 12:27 AM

2014-10-13T00:27:46-04:00

I think it would benefit all the services if we all looked alike in the work/combat uniforms. So yes put it on the sleeve Army. Think we look silly with all the different camouflage patterns.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 1:57 AM

2014-10-13T01:57:53-04:00

I am a traditionalist, I guess.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Oct 13 at 2014 2:09 AM

2014-10-13T02:09:26-04:00

Arrgh..BLUF belong up front not at the end!!! That being said, I am partial to the AF rank placement. Easy to tell Os vs Es.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 2:26 AM

2014-10-13T02:26:14-04:00

CSM Private RallyPoint Member,

All sergeants major should be required to have an RFID chip implanted so that my phone vibrates when we're within range of each other. While we're at it, let's make the lieutenant colonels' rank silver instead of black. Don't they know Soldiers salute shiny things by default?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 3:22 AM

2014-10-13T03:22:04-04:00

I think we should go back to the way it was in WWII where rank was worn on the sleeve of every uniform.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 13 at 2014 9:30 AM

2014-10-13T09:30:56-04:00

And by the way....take the pockets off of the sleeves. What is that really about anyway??

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Oct 13 at 2014 9:34 AM

2014-10-13T09:34:36-04:00

It doesn't matter where you are wearing your rank as long as you are doing what you are supposed to be doing? If people have to actually look at your collar, sleeve, or center mass, you might want to start working on making sure you are doing your job.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 10:18 AM

2014-10-13T10:18:37-04:00

I really miss the BDU days, so my answer is biased, but I am not in favor of placing chevrons back on the sleeves of utility uniforms.

In my quest to satisfy my hunger for knowledge, I took the time to read the report written by then COL Hal Moore after the Ia Drang Campaign in 1965. (Moore was promoted to COL very shortly after that engagement and assumed command of the brigade his battalion had been in)

The bottom line is that in the report, he put special emphasis on the fact that the NVA targeted NCO's at an alarming rate...and that removing chevrons from the sleeves of the combat uniform would decrease the likelihood of NCO leaders being targeted specifically in an engagement.

I think that reasoning is still valid today, much in the same way that medics no longer run around with only a pistol and a huge red cross armband on their uniform. While it may be easier to see the difference between 1SG Snuffy and SMA Chandler, the utility uniforms are still supposed to be built around the realities of combat.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 11:11 AM

2014-10-13T11:11:43-04:00

Officers ranks need to be identifiable. When saluting 6 paces out, a rank should be recognizable, therefore if when tested you cannot see the rank then it needs to be accented. The salute is not the only courtesy that should be displayed. When an individual sees a non com approaching they should be able to address them also. SGM to PVTs and Vice Versa. We should all be recognized for our ranks. PVTs earned their rank and deserved to be addressed for their accomplishments as much as an NCO or Officer.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Oct 13 at 2014 12:00 PM

2014-10-13T12:00:54-04:00

the bigger the better!

Response by SFC Robert Bailey made Oct 13 at 2014 3:43 PM

2014-10-13T15:43:08-04:00

I dont believe the Army is reducing the value of rank as much as poor leadership is reducing it. NCOs are letting officers absorb more and more of the NCO roles thereby giving up the leadership. The Army is promoting senior NCOs based on NCOERs that were written because our previius generation didnt want to hurt the feelings of a sub-standard NCO or they didnt want to" hurt their career". Ive seen sub-standard soldiers passed around like a bad check with no recourse because an NCO wanted to maintain their popularity or didnt want to hurt feelings. It isnt the Army policy makers that are devaluing rank, it is the "leadership" itself. Before changing the size of SSI you should research the lessons learned.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Oct 14 at 2014 12:19 AM

2014-10-14T00:19:54-04:00

Like back in Vietnam era uniforms!

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 14 at 2014 9:58 AM

2014-10-14T09:58:59-04:00

I like the way it was on the BDU (although part of me still really likes the rank on the sleeves).

Officers should wear non-subdued rank in garrison.

Bring back officer branch insignia on the uniforms.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 15 at 2014 6:03 PM

2014-10-15T18:03:36-04:00

I'm in favor of sleeves in dress uniforms, to include shirts. On the combat uniform, I'm in favor of emblems on the collar, but not on headgear. Why? For the same reason I'm in favor of eliminating unit patches. Why give the enemy more intel then we have to. The larger the rank (sleeves would make for some large rank indeed) the easier it is for enemy marksmen to eliminate unit leadership...

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Oct 19 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-10-19T12:03:15-04:00

I always hear that it was put on the chest, so troops would have an excuse to stare at females' chests. Do not know if that true or not. Really can't think of any other reason though.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025 made Oct 28 at 2014 9:22 PM

2014-10-28T21:22:20-04:00

Does anyone else remember soldiers doing one more push up for the "Tiger"? Those multiple stripes were recognizable a mile away.

"Sleeve" stripes were always a nuisance when you were promoted. However, MSG Krotzer survived a weak company commander's wrath by forgetting to write a letter requesting voluntary reduction in grade and merely cutting one rocker off two uniforms. Krotzer was hell on troops for a while, when the captain never asked for the letter again and orders were never published SFC Krotzer magically became MSG Krotzer by wearing the remaining uniforms with 3 up and 3 down.

We did get back to the 'Village" after a while. Then MSG Jackson who was an I Corps MP rousted us one Sunday morning, as we hit the trail, MSG Jackson drove by and left us in the dust.

I would chose collar tips, that way, in today's Army you do not inadvertantly check something else.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2014 9:01 AM

2014-10-29T09:01:46-04:00

CSM Bentley, I'm with you on this one...yet also know there are egos who enter a room long before the rank can be noticed.
I always thought SGM/CSM should have a leather pistol belt and a permanent issue .45.
Not a fan of swagger sticks, although I was presented on made from old ammo.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2014 9:03 AM

2014-10-29T09:03:43-04:00

PS--my dad said to always keep a set of brigadier stars in your pocket in case you are captured. Drives everyone nuts and you might live a little longer.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 29 at 2014 9:08 AM

2014-10-29T09:08:01-04:00

I was all in favor of having the rank on the collar. For me, it was easy to spot.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Oct 31 at 2014 1:30 PM

2014-10-31T13:30:07-04:00

Put it back on the sleeve where it was for most of the 20th century.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 1:35 PM

2014-10-31T13:35:54-04:00

I'm mixed on if it should go on the sleeve or back on the collar. You literally have to be a couple feet away to distinguish a 1SG and SGM/CSM. I have even at times had A hard time distinguishing SFC/MSG.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Oct 31 at 2014 3:21 PM

2014-10-31T15:21:48-04:00

I like it on the sleeve the most even if it was on the collar when I was in the Army. I think it looks better on the sleeve just like Class A's

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 3:32 AM

2014-11-01T03:32:17-04:00

CSM,
I have to disagree with this one. The Marine Corps has the smallest ranks of any of the other services but the respect they have for the ranks is one of the best I have seen. I don't think the size or location of the rank reduces the value of the rank at all.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 4:50 PM

2014-11-01T16:50:17-04:00

Working in a joint environment It gets really hard to distinguish when identifying ranks especially during the early hours and when the sun goes down. To be more specific the NAVY ranks are the hardest to identify due to E7 chiefs where most SM assume they are offers when they see shiny. I love the Air force because the enlisted ranks are in the sleeves and the officer ranks is in their collars

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2014 1:58 PM

2014-11-02T13:58:02-05:00

It is hard to see the rank for a reason, if its hard for us Army types to see it, and we are familiar with it, how hard do you think it is for the enemy to see it and distinguish it? Of all the reasons I want the ACU to go, this is not one of them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 9:40 PM

2014-12-08T21:40:00-05:00

I've always been a fan of placing it on the collar. Then you can easily distinguish from a fair distance who's coming up on you because officers wore their branch on the left of their collar.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Apr 5 at 2016 8:31 AM

2016-04-05T08:31:58-04:00

My question is do you want to make your rank more or less recognizable to the enemy.....?

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Apr 5 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-04-05T10:30:52-04:00

Rank is really only needed for when you interact with other units. When I am with my team, they know my capabilities and what I am allowed to order. My CSM does not need rank on his uniform for me to recognize him. Would it be nice to recognize a CSM from a SGM from a 1SG, yes. Needed, no.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:20 AM

2016-04-05T11:20:41-04:00

As a prior Air Force soldier I found that one of the most difficult parts of my transition to the Army was identifying the ranks of Senior Enlisted members. I have also had career Army soldiers walk past me and not salute thinking I was a SPC. My own personal opinion is that it would help having the rank on the sleeve. I feel it would alleviate some of the issues I have encountered not only personally but have seen others experience.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-04-05T11:26:15-04:00

It may suit to garrison needs to have the rank on the sleeve, but at the end of the day it is a combat uniform and shouldn't announce priority targets to the enemy.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 12:02 AM

2016-04-06T00:02:13-04:00

I dislike the ACUs and ABUs. I'm not concerned about rank placement as it has never caused me any angst. The uniforms themselves look sloppy and the material is not durable.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 12:02 AM

2016-04-06T00:02:47-04:00

That is one think that I don't think that OCP helps. The darker colors hide the rank. ACU was not bad but now when have brown on your rank patch it all just blends in until you are right up on them. Luckily I am in an Airborne unit so my beret clearly displays my rank as with those in my unit. But when on post you could run into CSMs and not even realize who they are.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 7:06 PM

2016-04-06T19:06:14-04:00

Let's keep the field uniform as is, but since we are on the topic of uniforms...

Put the NCO rank on the sleeve for the Class B shirt. Just like the it was with the old khaki uniform. Officers would place the rank, and if they really want it their branch insignia, on the collar. We should go back to a more military appearance. The khaki uniform was changed in November 1981 with a wear out date of September 1985. That was done in an effort to save soldiers money much like the ASU.

I just returned from a conference where several Army and Air Force officers were in attendance in their Class B uniforms. Sadly the civilians at the conference recognized the AF members, but thought our guys were hotel security.