Should the US bring back Vocational Training?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:27:21 -0400

Here is an interesting Forbes article on the merits of vocational training in high school as opposed to the college prep education. What are your thoughts?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholaswyman/2015/09/01/why-we-desperately-need-to-bring-back-vocational-training-in-schools/

Why We Desperately Need To Bring Back Vocational Training In Schools

Throughout most of U.S. history, American high school students were routinely taught vocational and job-ready skills along with the three Rs: reading, writing and arithmetic. Indeed readers of a certain age are likely to have fond memories of huddling over wooden workbenches learning a craft such as woodwork or maybe [...]

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Sep 8 at 2015 9:30 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:30:51 -0400

I would say most definitely. This would provide badly needed jobs and where there is a need for them.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 9:47 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:47:42 -0400

Yes. Many people can't afford to go to college. This would allow them to graduate with training and experience in a trade, ready to enter the work force.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 8 at 2015 10:11 AM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:11:34 -0400

At the risk of offending some I think that Forbes is right. Many, if not most, people have no business in college and are simply wasting time and money. In the last few decades we have promoted the idea that everyone should go to college. While doing so we have dumbed down colleges and universities and created a bunch of totally useless degree programs that do nothing by leave students deep in debt for no real benefit. Many who do actually graduate will never use their degree and will end up in a low paying dead end job anyway. Instead of getting a useless degree and flipping burgers most would be much better off with vocational training which prepares them for a job that actually does pay well. If anyone has doubts they should check what plumbers, electricians and welders usually make and compare it to someone with a degree in basically nothing. A side benefit is that the craftsman doesn't owe thousands in student loans before he even starts working.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 10:28 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:28:55 -0400

Absolutely. It should be brought back. We need more skilled labor in the private sector. One of the main reasons I joined the military was to learn a skill I could turn into a job once I finally left.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Sep 8 at 2015 10:50 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:50:03 -0400

Yes LTC Private RallyPoint Member the USA should increase the use of vocational training and their should be efforts to remove any stigma associated with VO Tech.
There are significant numbers of underemployed and unemployed college graduate and there are shortages in many of the technical trades - our nation could use many more skilled carpenters, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, steel and other metal workers, etc.
Some people are very gifted at working with their hands. It will be great if they are allowed and encouraged to get vocational training and experience.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Sep 8 at 2015 11:42 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 11:42:38 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member I am an IT Technician. This is a field where VO TECH is the way to go. You can spend $30,000-$150,000 on a degree that is irrelevant in three years when it comes to this field. Going the certification route you get the initial training and certification, then you maintain it. It is my personal opinion that the maintenance of training is where the real benefit lies. It doesn't matter what the trade is, if the technology and skills needed to maintain a profession change, the training that comes with it is far more valuable than anything taught in a classroom.

Response by Joseph Wong made Sep 8 at 2015 12:01 PM

Joseph Wong — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:01:08 -0400

Yes, absolutely. However, there needs to be closure between credentialing military and civilian. We bring on many Field Technicians and communication people, much of this could be taught as it is in the Army (25L) other service branches, or part of the SCTE certifications (private sector.) Either the military teaches you the Broadband trade or TWC does, there has to be other ways people can receive training. Once someone is trained, I think it should count as college credit so people can keep moving forward in their education.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 12:15 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:15:23 -0400

The guy who hosted dirty jobs has been pushing this for a while now. He has a non profit set up, but it is geared towards high school students.
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/
Vo-Tech is the only reason I made it through high school myself and I took the whole "college is the only way to succeed" bait and now I am stuck in a job that is not a good fit for me. Now no one will take my technical experience seriously, all they see is my last job and my degree. I think the Vo-Tech program should be revised along with college so that equal weight should be given to both, and maybe allow for a combination of them to help prepare some to go on to running their own businesses.

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Sep 8 at 2015 12:39 PM

SGT Patrick Reno — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:39:49 -0400

Yes, we need more vocational training. More and more High schools seem to be cutting these programs because of funding. There are only 8 colleges in the country that teach a Maintenance Mechanic or Works Repair type of program. I have worked in maintenance for 29 years in Sawmills here in the northwest. Maintenance is one of the highest paid fields in any type off manufacturing today. I have been on the advisory committee For the Maintenance program at North Idaho College for the last 15 years. It always seems to be a struggle to get the word out to local high schools about the program. I just found out several months ago that my old high school was cutting out all of it's vocational class's. It is such a shame to take this learning opportunity away from our youth. I am the highest paid employee out in the plant, and the basics for everything I do I learned in a high school shop class. Lets put it this way. I have 15 millwrights and only one of them is under 50 years old. And this is starting to become a industry problem with no young people entering the skilled trades. Yes I said SKILLED TRADES. You have to have specific skills to do the type of work we do, most people do not look at it as a skilled job. How many English lit. majors does our country need.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Sep 8 at 2015 1:07 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:07:03 -0400

LTC Frank D. I have seen Vocational training conducted at various high schools in California and Texas, so Voc Training is taking place but very little reporting is done about it. You can easily research agriculture, new construction methods, electrical etc.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 8 at 2015 1:07 PM

SPC David S. — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:07:05 -0400

Yes - and here is why. Not to discredit a lot of hard work by many high school students the truth is many of the college prep students are poorly prepared for college either academically or financially. Student loan debt is at a record high at over $1 trillion, and the average undergraduate who borrows to attend school graduates is nearly $30,000 in debt before they have a job. Also almost 20 percent of all student loan borrowers are in default. Despite these facts POTUS has encourage this reckless debt with IBR plans (Income-based repayment plans to protect students from early career struggles, layoffs and tough economic times). Contrary to the concept this removal of the finacial entrance barrier just further devalues a college education while at the same time flooding the market with degree holders with bad GPA's thus lowering starting salaries. I certainly feel the trades have suffered in the US because of the emphasis we have put on a college degree. However persuading high school kids that getting your hands dirty is the right fit might be even more of a challenge.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 8 at 2015 1:21 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:21:10 -0400

Yes. It teaches useful skills for those not interested in college

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Sep 8 at 2015 1:42 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:42:27 -0400

I think it would be a great idea, and not only for degrees, not everyone is going to want a degree but I would think that more then 95% of people want a viable skill that they can use to make a living.
Vocational training is something I have seen put to great use in the Philippines. We have been helping some of my wife's distant relatives over the years attend vocational training as cosmologists, auto mechanics, midwifes and dental helpers (a step below the college educated dental assistant). Its not always about the smarts, its about what is affordable to help someone get a step up.
As we are one of the greatest nations in the world, we need to invest in our people, especially our returning veterans who need some new skills besides warfare.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 8 at 2015 5:34 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:34:20 -0400

I was truly and well surprised when I discovered that vocational education had been severely cut and, in some places, totally eliminated. One day, while living in California, I asked why? I was told that leaders of the Civil Rights Movement had complained that minorities were being shunted into vocational education classes and schools by virtue of prejudices that averred that they were incapable of coping with academic education or college-prep classes. As a result, everyone was being shunted into courses for which they had no interest or competence regardless of race, gender, religion, or nationality. This may help explain why high school drop out rates are so high. Fortunately, community colleges seem to be picking up the slack. One such institution near where I live offers all manner of vocational training and excels at it. However, students must first endure high school to get there and many have the desire to learn beaten out of them by a one-size-fits-all curriculum. Sad...

Response by SrA David Steyer made Sep 9 at 2015 2:42 PM

SrA David Steyer — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 14:42:19 -0400

YES! I think we push college too much in our society, because not every one should go to college and you see less and less trades being taught. It's not a bad thing to be college educated, but we need people to do trades, and I looked around my area and they are very few trade schools, and the ones that do exist are lacking.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Sep 10 at 2015 1:29 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:29:57 -0400

This should be an option offered in high school.

Response by LCpl Dan McTiernan made Sep 10 at 2015 1:47 PM

LCpl Dan McTiernan — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 13:47:02 -0400

If everyone goes to college and no one experiences vocational training, then who do I call to repair my appliances, plumbing, electrical, ............

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 10 at 2015 3:18 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 15:18:55 -0400

I completely agree with the thesis that vocational training should return as college is not for everyone.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 2:19 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 02:19:04 -0400

I am retired as a teacher. I taught math. My district has trashed vocational education except a couple courses. All high schools had it and most middle schools used to have it. Now all students have to take the college prep courses required for University of California admission. They also put students in higher math courses before they understand the previous course. They water down the curriculum so the more challenged students can pass and the advanced ones don’t get what they need. Many students take algebra but can’t balance a checkbook or do percents. The slower students are sometimes put in an extra support class for math and English so they can catch them up; in the meantime they can’t take the fun courses; then they dislike school more. I can understand that the school districts want to make college more accessible to more students. However, they shouldn’t force it on them! Offer that college prep track to any student that want to try it and give them appropriate support. Let those who want a vocational track pursue it. Some students may prefer to delay college and either go to a vocational school, get a job or join the military, where they get great college benefits and take a few college courses at a time or go later in their career. Many people do very well by waiting they would be more mature and able to handle the courses. The military or community colleges can give them the courses they need later to they need to matriculate to a 4 year college.
School systems must restore vocational, culinary, business education. They can tie academics to the practical classes and the students would then see the relevance for it; ie. business or shop math (which would include geometry as well as some algebra and trig)

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Sep 12 at 2015 10:19 AM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 10:19:49 -0400

At the very least LTC Private RallyPoint Member, vocational training should be offered as an alternative to college prep education.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Sep 12 at 2015 12:12 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 12:12:32 -0400

I wish I could find the article again, but I read one that mentioned the U.S. is going to be in trouble in the "blue collar" area, because a lot of our current workers are getting ready to retire and only a few are trained to take over.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Sep 12 at 2015 1:29 PM

COL Ted Mc — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 13:29:30 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member - Colonel; The biggest problem with "Vocational Training" is that if the student cannot master the course content then they cannot get their "certificate" by pursuing "alternative content" and/or writing a two page paper explaining why the course content is "reactionary".

Face it, I sure don't want a welder or a mechanic who achieved a "social pass" working on my vehicles and I certainly don't want someone with a Gratuitous Educational Documentation doing research/technical work for me.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2015 1:31 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2015 13:31:53 -0400

Both should be available options for the student. If not one, than at least the other!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2015 10:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2015 10:52:13 -0400

I agree. Not everyone is going to be a software engineer or hedge fund manager or business accountant. There's no training for positions that exist between corporate go-getter or service industry. Plumbers, electricians, construction, mechanics... skilled trades that are outside the "white collar" realm are important.