Should there be conversion of 19D MOS back to 11D?

Mon, 24 Oct 2016 21:32:02 -0400

Cavalry Scouts seem to share a lot of related skills aside from specializing in reconnaissance. Back in time before Korean War I believe 19D MOS used to be part of 11 series, until someone decided that it better fits with Armor.

Nevertheless, we have 11Cs, who tend to do much less related work of actual infantry and more akin to artillery field, and then we have 19Ds, who do a lot of 11B work.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 9:43 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 21:43:42 -0400

Depends, will they get to keep their Stetsons and spurs?

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Oct 24 at 2016 10:26 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:26:07 -0400

Actually a little adjustment on timeline and the decision. 19D was created as a MOS in 1979, I believe, Full conversion from 11D did not really complete until sometime in 1982-1983 (this I watched with my own eyes). I was a member in one of the last National Guard units to convert from 11D to 19D, they did not have to recycle via AIT because they didn't change much in the training manual. The decision was made at the General Grade level because overall and across the Army the number of Cavalry Soldiers and units were declining........had nothing to do with Armor or being with Armor. It was Generals nostalgia at the time to preserve Cavalry units which where in fairly short supply in 1979 and dwindling. So in my view a rather dumb decision that has cost real money that could be used elsewhere. I have no idea what they teach about the History at Ft. Benning or about reactivation of the MOS 19D. I know what I heard in 1982 on how it was communicated to me the decision was made. At any rate once the decision to shift to an entirely new MOS, the Scout Section attached to our NG TOW Company, then wanted out of the TOW Company and wanted to be in their own Scout Company because they stated our training for 11H was so different they were not being trained to 19D standards (which I think was partly BS)...........and there it began. Realignment of 19D's out of Infantry Companies happened and when I went on Active Duty in 1984. Scouts were part of HQ Company in a Mech Infantry BN and had a Bradley M3 vs the Infantry Bradley M2.

If you ask me it doesn't really matter if they are a seperate MOS or in the 11 series job family, the only real difference is one approach spends more Taxpayer money over the other. So I am fairly neutral on rolling them back in. I think though from an administrative and career perspective rolling them back together might be better because it would make lateral transfers easier when one MOS gets short handed vs the other. However, since I was never 19D it does not make a difference to me.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 6:16 AM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:22 -0400

Only if they quit wearing those ridiculous hats.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 9:04 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:04:29 -0400

No. Not at all. Cav primarily use Bradleys while the basis of infantry revolves around dismounted tactics.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 9:41 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:41:31 -0400

First off I am a little confused on your 11C comment. I was/am an 11C and I have done more Infantry shit than most Infantrymen, when I take a piss it comes out blue. I have carried more weight and walked just as far as any 11B in any of my units. I have cleared buildings/rooms with my mortar section/platoon. I have place indirect and direct fire on objectives from support by fire positions. I think your misconception of 11Cs is very skewed.

I will give you this, there can be a difference between a light mortarman and a mechanized/Stryker mortarman. This difference is also noticeable between the mechanized/armor and light Scouts. To answer your question I think the Cav should keep their own MOS if not for anything else, for tradition.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Oct 25 at 2016 10:02 AM

SSG Robert Webster — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:02:22 -0400

I am sure that this question has been around the block a time or two, for exactly the same reasons.
However in American military parlance, they (the 19Ds) are cavalry (dragoons - mounted infantry).

Response by SPC Dave Elzinga made Oct 25 at 2016 11:30 AM

SPC Dave Elzinga — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:30:55 -0400

Why not stop screwing around with the Army and let them do what they do

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 4:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:11:03 -0400

Speaking as a former 19E, I believe they belong with Armor. I was in 4/12 Cav at Ft. Polk and we were a mix of scouts and tankers. A platoon had 2 scout tracks, 2 TOW tracks and 4 M60's. We used to chew regular Armor units up and spit them out in exercises all the time.

Response by PVT Robert Cameron made Oct 26 at 2016 11:18 AM

PVT Robert Cameron — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 11:18:46 -0400

As to your comment about 11C. Back when I went through Fort Benning the mos was listed as 11B-C2. They had the same training as I did, but the had to learn how to hump the mortar along with us. There's not much use for the mortar toting 11C's anymore. Our brothers and sisters have better weapons. And if I'm not mistaken I believe that the mortar was replaced by the tow missile system. And that too can be humped by a grunt. Especially in places where vehicles can't get to. So when it pertains to the 11series, your still a grunt.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 7:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 19:30:14 -0400

Absolutely not. Cav Scouts are a specialized MOS that primarily conducts mounted reconnaissance for Armored divisions. Yes there are many skills that they share with the Infantry, but that can be said of a lot of different MOSs. However, there are enough differences to justify keeping Cav Scouts in the Armor branch. Bear in mind that the only reason Cav Scouts are attached to some Light Infantry divisions right now is because they were an a quick solution to fill a capabilities gap due to their MTOE equipment (HMMWVs, vehicle mounted long range sensors etc).

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 10:52 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:52:10 -0400

You are. POG and will remain one

Response by SGT Carl Doerr made Oct 27 at 2016 11:36 AM

SGT Carl Doerr — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 11:36:20 -0400

As we all know. Yea the Cav. Ride into battle. But without dismounting they're sitting ducks. Upon contact they dismounting they're no different the straight leg Infantry with fire support from their vehicles. And those dam hats need to go. They belong with the air cav pilots.

Response by SGT Melvin Beard made Oct 28 at 2016 12:54 PM

SGT Melvin Beard — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 12:54:45 -0400

19D's, are basically mounted Infantry assigned to the Cavalry. An MOS is a job title to distinguish what the soldier's job is and what slot is available for recruitment.. So basically a CAV Scout is an 11B doing 11B and Scout activities. The 19D designation marks it as a survival MOS. The Modern Scout can defend and attack if need be but the main focus is to scout enemy forces, avenues of travel or approach. So no, I don't think they should go back to an 11B designation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 2:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 14:53:52 -0400

It's always fun to poke my head into any conversation about us Scouts, just to see all the hate we get.
Already responded to one enlightening individual who had a case of diarrhea of the mouth.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 7:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 19:40:11 -0400

Imagine a world where Soldiers had so much pride in their profession that their focus was on mastering just that...their profession.

Response by SSG Kyle Stromgren made Oct 28 at 2016 10:20 PM

SSG Kyle Stromgren — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 22:20:34 -0400

Come on the Infantry guys need somebody to rag on just to rag on

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2016 10:03 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:03:11 -0400

I heard that a 19-D is like the infantryman of Armor.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 31 at 2016 4:36 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:36:07 -0400

A conversion? No, I don't think so. Cavalry is Cavalry. Maybe make two separate MOS for the separate duty types(As in 11D Infantry Scout/19D Cavalry scout).
Personally, no Cav Scout I ever met did much "11B work"....Conversely, 11C's definitely do grunt stuff...especially in light or Airborne units. They carry a hell of a load.

Response by SPC Delbert DeTray made Nov 1 at 2016 12:18 PM

SPC Delbert DeTray — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 12:18:39 -0400

ok Pissing matches aside until you serve in a light infantry unit dont judge your counterparts yeah mortars are attached to HQ but they get all the shit details working for the 1stsgt and CO. I saw this as a 11B secondly 90% of cav scout units in the army dont really do there jobs because they are misused the active word is scout our unit used them as intended as scouts and recon especially with 5 out of 10 scouts being long range and sniper qualified but to answer your question no they are intended to scout the forward areas for the tanks and heavy mechanized units so they should stay with the armor and be used as intended.

Response by MAJ James Woods made Nov 1 at 2016 1:35 PM

MAJ James Woods — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 13:35:57 -0400

Cav Scouts and Infantry are not the same. There is uniqueness between what they do. Also Armor has Scouts cause heaven forbid you tell an Infantryman that he's going to be told by a tanker what to do. Hahaha!

Response by SGM Jerry Kastler made Nov 1 at 2016 2:25 PM

SGM Jerry Kastler — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 14:25:46 -0400

It really doesn't matter to the scouts which career field they are in, though that was the actual reasoning behind moving them to armor. If you go back far enough you will find that even tankers were 11E at one point. Tactics are driven by terrain, available weapons systems, and the enemy you are facing. But the actual job of serving as a scout doesn't really change all that much. Scouts for a light infantry Bn or Cavalry Squadron screening a Division, you keep doing the same mission. And in case you are curious, they didn't fit in with the infantry any better than they do with the tankers.

Response by SFC David Xanten made Nov 1 at 2016 3:28 PM

SFC David Xanten — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 15:28:32 -0400

I never understood the reasons for creating MOS 19... in the first place. I was an 11E from 60-67 and then became a 11B40, a 11D40 and again a 11E4H. I liked the idea of all the Real Combat Arms, sorry Artillery, sharing the same MOS and have never agreed with the change.

Response by SGT Paul Casteel made Nov 1 at 2016 5:06 PM

SGT Paul Casteel — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 17:06:31 -0400

As a former 11C in the 82nd, I have to say mortar teams do primarily Infantry work, with a little indirect fire in support of their Infantry mission. Cavalry Scouts primarily perform reconnaissance in support of mechanized units, whereas Infantry units have elements assigned to perorm that task for them. I think 19D is a pretty hardcore MOS, and I think it should be celebrated as it is, and not moved to the Infantry series.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Nov 1 at 2016 7:49 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 19:49:17 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner…The straight answer to this question is NO, the reason is the CIB is the Infantry. In 1967 the requirements for the CIB were laid down, a soldier had to have been awarded 11B MOS through completing Infantry AIT, 30 days of Combat or getting a combat wound. The Enlisted ranks eligible were E-1-E-6. I understand now E-7 and E-8 can be awarded the CIB. The 11D's of my era have made the augment that they sometimes pulled Infantry missions, while true it was always the exception. The only time I can remember 11D's going on an Infantry mission was when the Rifle Squad was short men due to combat wounds or KIA's…When the Platoon Leader called over the horn "Dismounts to two six" he meant the 11B's…Being an 11B is the crappiest job in the Army. In garrison you are always the ones who gets the shit details and were always last in line for passes, but first in line for weekend guard duty, weekend CQ or KP…In Combat the 11B is the one in font of the tip of the spear and the first to make contact and enviably the first to take casualties. The CIB was created to recognize that sacrifice that is only asked of the Infantry…The Combat Action badge was created for those who are less the Infantry.

Response by CPL Richard Flagg made Nov 2 at 2016 12:40 PM

CPL Richard Flagg — Wed, 02 Nov 2016 12:40:40 -0400

Speaking as an 11B who served at JRTC as OPFOR with the 1/509th at Fort Chaffee, AR during the early years; I feel that 11B and 19D are very similar. The BN was a combination of both MOSes and we worked quite well together. In my assignment in the SCOUT PLT as a TM LDR I was filling a 19D slot as a 11B and we had no problems in our mixed 11B and 19D PLT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2016 6:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 18:28:30 -0400

Infantryman or more politically correct, Infantry persons like to talk shit about cav and then try to get into "recon platoon". The fact is this conversation is a waste of time. A better conversation is why are 19ds taking over the MGS strikers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2017 8:09 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:09:56 -0500

I hate to break it to you, but 11D translated to 11E back in 1974 (or perhaps 1975 - I've slept pretty often since then.)

Still, I think you miss the use to which they are put. There are no scouts for an Infantry battalion. There are only scouts for Armor. And why? Because you can't set up an LP/OP in an M-1A.

Even so roles are changing. True scouts are a vanishing breed. Pathfinders? Gone. Long Range Surveillance Units? Going fast. Rangers? Who knows? Those reconnaissance missions are taken over by drones and satellites.

Even task organization removes the need for scouts. And Infantry/Armor task force has Infantry (duh) to handle scouting details. You might be arguing that 19D be absorbed into 19K even as 11D was absorbed into 11E. Perhaps one of the very few reasons 19D continues to exist is that the 19Ks need to have some idea what scouts do and that they can be depended on.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made Jan 20 at 2017 2:17 AM

SPC Franklin McKown — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 02:17:43 -0500

NO they should reactivated the branch and attach A-10s as well as heavy lift,WHY not I'm a scout and I safety wired a BlackHawk with our crew chiefs in Korea.The AIR FORCE needs to focus on SPACE not the COIN/CAS mission, anymore.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made May 26 at 2017 11:24 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Fri, 26 May 2017 23:24:26 -0400

Heavy Mortars are definitely Artillery, New ones shoot as fart and have the punch of what was light Artillery. 13F and 19D are similar but identical

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2017 10:02 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 22:02:29 -0400

Ok I don't agree with either one of these responses. I have both armor and infantry MOS's. I will simply say this: The diversion of 19D from 11D was not done lightly. At one time there were *a lot* of infantry MOS's. In fact, infantry was the primary combat arms force and everything else was mostly considered support. Even armor was considered infantry at one time (11E-Armored Infantry). They even had 11F-Infantry Intelligence Specialist. However, as time passed there was a lot of discussion regarding expanding certain fields (such as intelligence) as technology changed and the Army grew. This led to the creation of new corps (such as the military intelligence corps). One could argue that separate corps/MOS's like this allow for more specialization and greater esprit de corps. If you were merge MOS's back under the infantry regiments you would lose that I believe. Just my two cents...

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 18 at 2017 9:37 AM

SPC David Willis — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 09:37:17 -0500

God no, if you think you have heard "were pretty much infantry" already, just wait until they are pretty much infantry.

Response by CPT Bruce Dow made Dec 18 at 2017 7:09 PM

CPT Bruce Dow — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:09:10 -0500

Back when I had a Armored Cavalry platoon we had 2 scout squads (11D), 2 Sheridans (11E), 1 Infantry squad (11B) and a 4.2 Mortar squad (11C). It was the smallest combined arms team in the Army

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 5:42 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 05:42:08 -0500

Never been a part of a cav unit, so i thought cav brought strykers? And their roots is armour isnt it? They would lose all their heritage.

Response by SFC John Alford made Jun 4 at 2018 4:22 PM

SFC John Alford — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 16:22:57 -0400

I served with 11th ACR in Vietnam and held the mos of 11D. I think 19D should be changed back to 11D. As 11D40 we did everything 11B does plus act as scouts, pulled security for convoys, set up night and auto mic ambushes. As such I was awarded a CIB which a 19D is not allowed to receive.

Response by SSG Joshua Faulkner made Jun 10 at 2018 5:43 PM

SSG Joshua Faulkner — Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:43:41 -0400

I dont Know what scouts you guys have been talking too, but as for me and bwing a former scout all we did was infantry work. We just had fewer men. Oh and by the way there is a reason the cav is always at the front of a battalion run. We are the first in.

Response by SFC Louis Cosme made Jul 30 at 2018 2:08 PM

SFC Louis Cosme — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:08:28 -0400

The whole discussion is somewhat ludicrous. There are wide variations within a single MOS without even involving others, i.e. 11C mortars 4.2mm vs. 81mm. 11B line infantry vs. scouts. I was an 11B Scout and can tell you it takes quite a bit of training to get someone up to speed coming from a conventional line company.

Response by SSG Mark Greer made Sep 17 at 2018 7:40 PM

SSG Mark Greer — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 19:40:50 -0400

I do not know any Delta that wants to be an 11D. And know none that want tonware an EIB. NONE.

Response by SPC Chris Thomas made Apr 26 at 2019 7:33 PM

SPC Chris Thomas — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:33:11 -0400

BLASPHEMY!! Lol

Response by PV2 Ronald Knox made Jun 26 at 2019 8:49 AM

PV2 Ronald Knox — Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:49:29 -0400

Armor to be used right always needs its support or its vulnerable

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Nov 1 at 2019 5:02 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 17:02:58 -0400

Àir calvary belongs to no one but themselves and find the enemy long before anyone else, engages him and eliminates him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2021 7:52 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Apr 2021 07:52:16 -0400

I would rather ride in a vehicle than walk. the 11sies can keep all their flair, I wanna be able to walk when I'm an old man.