Should trainees be allowed to quit basic training?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:52:29 -0500

Trainees are now able to voluntarily withdraw from Basic Combat Training, be it through a written VW, CMHS drop, or through repeated patterns of misconduct. Should they be allowed to quit, or should they be legally forced to complete the contract that they signed? Minimum time of service, meet the basic requirements of that contract, etc?

Invite others to respond

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 2:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:05:39 -0500

Sure, quit basic training, get out of the military with a dishonorable discharge

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 2:09 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:09:39 -0500

Someone who can't handle the pressure of basic training, is not likely able to handle other military high pressure situations.

We let soldiers quit other, albeit much more challenging, training when they realize they can't hack it. Give them an OTH discharge.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Feb 27 at 2015 2:15 PM

Cpl Mark McMiller — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:15:13 -0500

With budgets being cut and our military forced to cut jobs, I don't think it's a bad idea to let someone who doesn't want to be there leave and open a slot for someone who does.

However, I don't think any who leave recruit training voluntarily should be given a honorable discharge or anything even close to it. I don't think they should legally be considered a veteran unless they graduate from recruit training. They should maybe be given some kind of administrative discharge for lack of compatibility reasons that carries with it no veteran benefits.

Response by LT Jessica Kellogg made Feb 27 at 2015 4:00 PM

LT Jessica Kellogg — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:00:38 -0500

The military isn't for everyone. I'd rather someone figure that out in basic training then in the middle of a situation where other service member's may be placed at risk by their actions.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Feb 27 at 2015 4:15 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:15:10 -0500

If they decide to quit they should be allowed to, but they should also have all benefits removed and their pay stops the instant they quit. Pay back any enlistment bonuses, etc. Other than Honorable discharge at the least, would like to see a "quitter discharge" as they are breaking a legal contract.

Response by SrA Marshall Dotson made Feb 27 at 2015 5:05 PM

SrA Marshall Dotson — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:05:45 -0500

Sure if their cowards ....crybabies sure u want those guys with you ?

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 5:06 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:06:53 -0500

I do not disagree with the majority of the answers here, but being pushed and challenged made us who we are today.

I could cite countless times that I would have shyt-canned the whole thing in (Army) Basic. Being motivated to do better was part of the experience. And THAT was essential to my successes in life. :)

Response by SrA Marshall Dotson made Feb 27 at 2015 5:07 PM

SrA Marshall Dotson — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:07:46 -0500

I ended up in my air force life last three years. I was a combat controller ..wanted to quit so many times lifting logs to eat knee high in the surf. But I didn't. Difference in a man and boy

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 27 at 2015 5:10 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:10:06 -0500

I think they should be made to pay back the money invested in them and they should have thought before signing a legal contract. Legal contracts have consequences and like the saying says can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 5:13 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:13:59 -0500

I don't like the idea of being allowed to quit Basic. Seems to me that when you sign a contract, you're agreeing to complete what you sign up for.

I guess if someone wants to quit, they should get an OTH discharge. Maybe with that I would agree that quitting is "okay," because then there's a consequence and folks would not be likely to quit the first time the going gets rough.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 5:39 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:39:46 -0500

I am a 1SG over a USAR BCT Drill Sergeant unit, and until this past year, was a Drill. BCT SMs cannot simply quit. There is a lot more to it than just saying, "I Quit". The SMs also have to figure on a Less than Honorable, or a General Discharge for Unable to Adapt. This closes a lot of doors in the civ world that most SMs are not willing to accept after things are explained to them. I do agree that when you sign the contract, you are obligated; but, there are some who need to find another line of work.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Feb 27 at 2015 5:57 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:57:33 -0500

Sure, but trainees aren't free and come at a high cost. Anyone who quit must be financial responsible and pay ALL of the costs associated with training and processing.
Training: meals, lodging, transportation costs, clothing costs, medical costs and other training expenses.
Processing costs: Security screenings, medical expenses, testing expenses, hotels, meals, etc.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Feb 27 at 2015 6:24 PM

MSgt Jim Pollock — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:24:56 -0500

I'd like to see the option for trainees to quit until they complete basic training.

We aren't drafting people anymore and enlistment standards are rising. In other words, we don't need any particular enlistees. Accession school instructors should be solely in the business of shaping new SMs, not 'remotivating' kids that lack the maturity to succeed.

No harm, no foul DORs would also enable an abrupt increase in training standards that approach Marine OCS standards (a course that allows DORs).

Most importantly, the military services would shed their perception as a place to send kids that need to 'grow up.'

There was a time that only officers were viewed as professionals. That time is over. Making basic more of a selection experience than a transformative one will go a long way towards solidifying that fact.

Response by SGT Micheal Adams made Feb 27 at 2015 6:31 PM

SGT Micheal Adams — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:31:37 -0500

No way in hell! Stay and complete one thing in your life. It's freaking basic training for crying out loud. Grow a set and stand your ground. If you don't like it tuff, no one said life was fair and no one is going to give you what the military has to offer. Finish the job you signed up to do. My opinion is mine based on a boy who quit school and would have been a quiter today if it weren't for the military.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Feb 27 at 2015 7:34 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:34:36 -0500

They signed the contract, sucks to be them, they should of thought about it ahead of time. They should realize there is no "rose garden". A contract is a contract. suck it up and do it.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 27 at 2015 8:51 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:51:23 -0500

We invest many thousands of dollars in a recruit under the assumption that in return we will get some years of labor in return.

If they can quit, can we employ tort to recover the loss?

Response by SGT Micheal Adams made Feb 28 at 2015 4:31 AM

SGT Micheal Adams — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 04:31:18 -0500

When I attended basic, men were tore down and rebuilt soldiers. We may have cried the first week in our bunk silently but we didn't quit. Men before us did it, men of their word. The problem with current standards are if we treat you bad you can complain and someone will hold your hand. Stop all this "let them quit crap" stop coddling them and make fighting men out of them. You will have some wash, always have but most men when held to their word and their promise will turn out as honorable men.
Do you honestly believe that if you let someone quit during tuff times Viet Nam could have been fought. Basic training is where boys go to become fighting men. Please excuse the expression but pop the titty out of their mouths and let them suffer. It will not kill them. How many of those fighting men return from a tour wR time or not and become Police men and firemen to protect and serve the citizens of our great nation. Most of them learn self dissaplin and self motivation in where BASIC TRAINING. Stop just stop.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 4:47 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 04:47:05 -0500

They should quit pay prorated and they should have to procure their own transportation home.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:30 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 06:30:33 -0500

Choices have consequences, but does the military want Soldiers/Marines/Airmen that will choose to quit at the first sign of adversity?

In the Army, a Chapter 11(Entry Level Separation) is the method for separating "quitters". If a Trainee refuses to train, they are refusing the lawful orders of a non commissioned officer and are subject to UCMJ (usually an Art15) followed by separation.

The By refusing to separation "quitters", we are pushing a problem on to the operational force. In the long run, that will cost the military more resources, in time and money. I'd rather see BCT a a filter. High standards in initial entry standard create a better foundation for the fighting force.

Response by PO1 Joan (Tipka) (Plummer) Fisher made Feb 28 at 2015 6:39 AM

PO1 Joan (Tipka) (Plummer) Fisher — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 06:39:17 -0500

I agree with most here that a contract is a contract. If we keep coddling them they will never get the ambition to better themselves. Even my own children have had to learn the hard way because I refuse to "Bail" them out. If the recruit wants out of their contract then let them buy it out in exchange for community service = time left on contract. Then they will learn accountability for their actions, determination because they have to buy out their promise of service and maybe they will learn that the world does not evolve around them. Nothing in life is free unfortunately the new generation thinks it is and that society owes them. My mothers family helped build this country when they came here in 1620. My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean War and Vietnam. If we allow the future generations to act in this manner the past is lost. My fore fathers did not run away from duty and their promises because it was too hard. They knew in order to make life better and keep the peace they needed to serve their country. The military is in my blood.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 8:55 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:55:06 -0500

I'm fine with the idea. If someone can't make it through 8 weeks of basic training - especially with as easy as it has become - then by all means chapter/get out. It may hurt the individual for a while if they got a chapter discharge, but the military isn't for everyone. Not to mention it would save millions of dollars not having to send them to AIT, pay them in the future, or pay their eduation cost (TA and GI Bill).

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 9:08 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:08:18 -0500

Lots of opinions here, but what is really needed are metrics. Do Soldiers who create problems in Basic Training ever adapt to being good service members and at what rate?

In the small population that I can personally discuss (my own Basic Training class), many good trainees ultimately had trouble in the regular force and either chaptered out or got out at the end of their initial enlistment. In other words, their Basic Training performance did not predict their actual performance. Some marginal trainees are still in...and still marginal...and we have been paying them a paycheck for 8 years and getting not much out of them (almost all are still E-4s). I am beginning to worry they will make it to retirement and get a check for the rest of their lives. We should have shown them the door (waiting for more leaders to catch on to using the "bar to reenlistment"). The worst trainees, the ones who make histrionic suicide claims, spent almost the entire time at sick call, etc. never finished Basic but were on the rolls (getting paid) for the entire cycle - some were still there when classmates finished AIT. 100% of these trainees (and I use that term for clarity, not description) would have quit if we would have let them. We should have let them. Their fake medical issues caused injured trainees to have to wait for hours. We probably spent at least 2 or 3 times on these wash outs then we spent on graduates.

I understand what it means to sign a contract, but understand that there are BIG costs to the military for forcing people who don't want to be there or don't belong into staying. The biggest cost, which a few people have pointed out, is that it hurts the image of military service and interferes with creating a professional force. In high school, I had two friends who were separately sentenced to military service (different cases, different judges). It caused me to view military service as akin to jail and did impact my decision to join after high school. We should have a reputation for kicking people out of Basic Training, not forcing people to stay in. Look at other things that function that way: medical/law school, Ranger School/Special Forces, firefighter/police academy, etc.

It should be hard to get accepted to even attempt Basic Training, and then finishing Basic Training should be a demonstration of your personal will, not something you cannot escape from...like prison. Just this one change would go a long way to change public perception of the Armed Forces. Yes, people thank us for our service, but deep down, many Americans still see us as a necessary evil and not as professionals.

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Feb 28 at 2015 10:06 AM

MSgt Allan Vrboncic — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 10:06:04 -0500

No. Once you swear in, you are IN. Then it is up to the Military Branch you Joined up with to decide whether you are fit for Military Service or not. End of story.

Response by SGT Nathaniel Hiller made Feb 28 at 2015 11:33 AM

SGT Nathaniel Hiller — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:33:09 -0500

Let them quit, talk about saving the tax payer quite a lot of money in future training costs. Of course if you quit, you receive no benefits or Veteran status.

Response by Sgt Carlos Perez made Feb 28 at 2015 11:42 AM

Sgt Carlos Perez — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:42:55 -0500

No once you are in and sign that contract you must go through the training, if you dont qualified then discharge with unable to adjust to militery life.can not be let off so easy.but the usmc training cant be deluded or we are traing a bunch of wimps that will weeken our force while other country will surpass us.I know being push to your limits has it advantages and you will know your linitations which well help in combat situations.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 12:11 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:00 -0500

I think if someone really doesn't want to be in the military anymore they should be able to quit. I would rather that someone quits early on in their career, instead of getting pushed through then sent to a unit where they have to be dealt with there. In addition, if you do quit you don't get any benefits and you are never allowed to try and enlist again (in any service).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 12:18 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:18:23 -0500

Just my two cents, but the US Army is a desirable enough professional organization that we don't need to force people into our ranks. If someone doesn't want to serve, I don't need them in my squad.

We're not in a draft scenario and my opinion might change at that point, but as-is, we're talking about a fraternal organization that offers training, healthcare, upward mobility, fully-funded civilian education, free gym membership, tax incentives, employee discounts all over the place, free travel and retirement at 20 years.

Are there occupational hazards? Sure. The same could be said of construction work, for a tenth of reimbursement. Military's not for everyone. The quicker we can get people out who don't want to be here, the better.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Feb 28 at 2015 2:47 PM

Capt Brandon Charters — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 14:47:06 -0500

Absolutely. I would want no part of serving with someone who wanted out that badly and couldn't complete the minimum requirements of being in the military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 3:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:37:20 -0500

THERE SHOULD KNOW WHAT THERE ARE GETTING IN TOO ,THERE WATCH MOVIES ON THE SERVICE IS ALL ABOUT AND THE TRAINING IS ABOUT IT NOT A PINIC IT HARD WORK YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT WENT YOU SIGN THE CONTRACT,THERE SHOULD GET A GENERAL DISCHARGE, WITH NO BENEFITS,MY THOUGHT ARE THAT READ BEFOR YOU SIGN AND ASK ABOUT WHAT SERVICE IS ALL ABOUT

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 1 at 2015 5:35 PM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 17:35:47 -0500

Yes. It is a volunteer military, and if they don't want to serve, they need to be gone. Making them stay would serve no purpose. The volunteer military works because the team members want to serve.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 4:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 16:26:27 -0500

Yes, they should be able to quit. This is a all volunteer Army and your contract shouldn't take affect until you graduate from basic. Many Soldiers realize it isn't for them once they arrive to their training post and fear reprisal for wanting to quit. Usually these are the ones that end up being problem children down the road.

Response by SPC Jerry Goodman made Mar 4 at 2015 8:02 PM

SPC Jerry Goodman — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 20:02:07 -0500

I say let them quit, but only allow them to do it like within a few weeks of basic. The military already has enough shitbags in it already, would be nice not to have them stay. When they are discharged it should be like if they never went in and take back there pay.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:57 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:57:57 -0500

I think we need a different approach on how we assess new recruits. Just being to breathe and dome push-ups and sit-ups should not be a indicator someone is reddy for service. What I would do is something similar to the academies where they can quit at any time prior yo their junior year.

I would have them sign a conditional contract that allows the prospect to quit at anytime prior to the last half of training with an understanding that they are barred from any military or federal service for 5 years. This would be a penalty to think on but not a life altering one. After 5 years I would let them be reassessed but bar them from getting any sign up bonuses and they would have to pay back over their term of enlistment costs incurred from their first attempt. After 5 years they would almost be allowed to have clean slate including potential officer accession.

After the second phase has begun they can quit but with a little more stringent penalty. Bared for life any federal service no second look at any reentrance into the military.

I agree that we should not haphazardly let them quit at any time and any phase in the training. But this should two way process where if they just are not cutting it then a Matisse parting of ways would be better. As someone commented about wasting money on letting them goto basic and quit at anytime. I would rather not waste more money and resources to bring in the problem child that most likely will end up either being booted early or court martialled anyway. Being that we are now a military that has to do more with less we don't have the time or resources to be someone's surrogate parent anymore. It's our job to train to proficiency to serve the nation. It is not our job to be the babysitter to someone's immature millennial brat. Giving them 5years to grow up a little bit might make a retread a more capable service member. I would rather resources to training and proficiency of those who want to be there will benefit us more in the long run.

Response by SrA Marshall Dotson made Mar 12 at 2015 3:15 PM

SrA Marshall Dotson — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:15:00 -0400

Yes sir .....I agree ....u can't never quit...never want that have my back ....never would trust em......can't finish basic training ....wow ........coward ...gave up ? Not exceptable

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 2:22 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:22:55 -0400

Sure. Saves tax dollars. And as an NCO, it saves me a lot of time, effort, and headaches down the road by not having to deal with these kinds of problem soldiers if they are forced to stay in until their time is up.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 2 at 2015 2:34 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 14:34:29 -0400

Do we need them? Do we want them if they are going to quit? If you answered 'No' to those two questions, the answer would be yes. With the reduction in force, let those who don't to be there go.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 2:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 14:47:22 -0400

In my humble opinion: The drill sargents should a go / no go a recruit in the end of basic....or alow the recruits to not continued to AIT

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 2 at 2015 3:02 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:02:42 -0400

If they want to quit and go through the process like 1SG Gregory Bowman stated, they should have to pay back the money tax payers wasted on them for being weak little civilians. I am sorry if I sound harsh but other than, having a hard time finding certain jobs, holding being indebt would be a good idea I think.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 2 at 2015 3:40 PM

SSG John Erny — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:40:58 -0400

No with a but. No it should not be as saying I quit. These young people who enter the service are going see and do things that they have never done before. Their initial reaction may be I can do this it is to hard, but the truth is many of them can. Let them be challenged then rewarded by proving to them selves that they are cable of meeting the changeless of tough training. They will gain confidence and pride in what they have accomplished.

But, if the DI finds that a troop who wants to quit is going to be a problem rather than an asset to the military by all means let them go. The DI's should be given and enlistment God Gun as well, if they have a troop that is meeting the standard but is going to be a problem for the receiving unit they should be able to recommend to the chain of command that that person be separated from service. How many of you have seen PVT FUBAR come Basic/AIT and wonder how did he/she ever pass basic and I want to strangle their recruiter. PVT FUBAR is now a problem the NCO corp and the unit commander who may have to show the troop to the door.

That may sound cold of me but I have seen troops come out of Basic who never passed a PT test and were pencil whipped through so the BT Unit would not have to deal with them. They seem particularly found of doing this with Guard and Reserve troops. Not our problem any more.

Another idiot that comes to mind could do his job sort of, but was walking safety hazard. He opened the air lines slightly on a truck though it would be funny, luckily no one was hurt. He also got a ticket right outside the main gate for 80 in a 55; the same week he went outside the designated travel area with two other trouble makers.

Who gets the Job of smoking the aforementioned idiots, me. They spent the better part of the night draining a huge mud puddle with buckets. To what end? I did what I was told to do, teach them a lesson. On the other hand you just can't fix stupid.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 3:45 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 15:45:30 -0400

I doubt this is completely true if at all, but I say if they want to quit then let them. I don't want whines, wimpy ass wuiters in my Army. Better they quit now than when they get to myself and fellow NCO's

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 10:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 22:13:50 -0400

I am in general agreement with most of the responses that say that new recruits should be allowed to quit. I don't think it should be easy, but I do think that if people find out that the military is not for them, then they should be given an opportunity to terminate their contract. As for the consequences of terminating their contract, it should be under the category of general discharge and incur no significant hardships, but give no rewards whatsoever.

My thought is this: why do we want people who don't want to be here? Any good organization should be built around individuals that want to be there. If people don't want to be part of an organization, but are required to, they are usually low performers and detrimental to the overall organization.
I think giving people an out in the early stages of training would help eliminate some of the problems we face as an organization. It's about creating an organization of people that want to be here and are motivated to do a difficult job. All good organizations and all good businesses have to work hard to keep good people and often get rid of people that "need" to be there.

I do offer a solution: Create an military-wide program (branch specific, Active and Reserve) that both evaluates and indoctrinates recruits prior to attending Basic Training. The Army National Guard has been doing this for years with their Recruit Sustainment Program (RSP). For three to six months prior to shipping to Basic, recruits attend a one-weekend-a-month drill intended to prepare them for Basic Training. During those drills, the new enlistments are given a PT test, complete administrative paperwork and learn Skill Level 1 Warrior Tasks. I think expanding that program throughout the military and making it a requirement for all new enlistments would greatly improve the military's ability to prepare and screen new recruits prior to their attendance to Basic Training.
I spent seven months as a RSP Instructor/SGL and during that time, there were recruits that decided the military was not for them as were able to terminate their contract (it was not an easy process, but easier than doing so at Basic Training).

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 10:17 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 22:17:56 -0400

I think that yes you should be able to quit, you earn the right to be a soldier because you volunteered to do it, not because you were forced... I don't want people coming into the army who have the quitting mindset or that are weak willed. What are they going to quit next because it was too hard or frightening?? Combat? And risk the lives of your entire squad... I would much rather have the soldier who volunteered and never quit by my side than the one who was forced to complete his training. I also think that if you do decide to just voluntarily quit because it's too hard or scary ( medical issues are a different issue) then you should be required to pay the government a fee based on the cost up to that point of training as a penalty for breaking a contract you signed and took an oath.

Response by SGT Lawrence Lloyd made Apr 4 at 2015 5:21 PM

SGT Lawrence Lloyd — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 17:21:34 -0400

It's a contract that you signed and volunteered for! Why make it easier for those to quit when the going gets tough! I was not a man when I entered Basic Training, but sure was when I graduated! Military service is an honorable profession and one of the core values of the Army is HONOR! Be a Man/Woman and honor your commitment and contract!

Response by SPC Shyue Lor made Apr 16 at 2015 4:29 PM

SPC Shyue Lor — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:29:49 -0400

Yes they should, i dont want them watching my back in combat if they quit during basic.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 12:29 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 00:29:09 -0400

They have always been allowed to leave during basic training. Even back when I joined a trainee could request an administrative separation within 30 days of entering service....was not advertised but has there and was done.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2015 11:07 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:07:27 -0400

If the trainee truly believes that this job is for them, then sure. Why waste money and resources on someone who does not want to serve? That just leads to further headaches down the road. Give them a GD and send them on their way. There will always be more recruits.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 4:38 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 16:38:53 -0400

I believe complete basic training and decide there. I graduated September 2013 and when I reached AIT they gave me a slip basically stating "Do I want to stay in". At that moment, that is where people should re evaluate what they wanted to do and honestly, I prefer people who want to be in the military and watching my back instead of someone who doesn't.

Response by PFC Scott Ballor made Jul 13 at 2015 3:15 PM

PFC Scott Ballor — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:15:33 -0400

yes get the people who are there for training get trained

Response by CPT Arch Nissel made Jul 14 at 2015 4:57 PM

CPT Arch Nissel — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 16:57:02 -0400

Trainees should not be allowed to drop for other than the older "Family" requirements. They may not get the training but even if they are regulated to chain gangs they started it they need to finish it.

Response by Daniel Torluemke made Feb 2 at 2016 10:25 PM

Daniel Torluemke — Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:25:45 -0500

I went into the Army in 1976. I was 17 years old. My recruiter filled me with tons of lies. I had no clue what I was getting onto. I couldn't wait to get there. It was the biggest mistake of my life. I was too young and immature, and was unable to hack it. While they made my life a living hell for about three weeks, telling me that I was a "Sorry excuse for a human being," and worse, they gave me a 635-1 Honorable Discharge . I did not get any Vets benefits but I was given an honorable discharge. In the years since then I have been a productive tax paying citizen. I regret that I could not hack it but I was just a kid. I didn't even shave yet. Why would you wish to ruin anyone's life at such a young age simply because they made a mistake enlisting?

Response by Daniel Torluemke made Feb 2 at 2016 10:34 PM

Daniel Torluemke — Tue, 02 Feb 2016 22:34:20 -0500

Why not take the one's having a hard time and put them into a remedial platoon until they are ready for Basic training. Don't humiliate them, teach them how to March, make their bunks, clean their weapons, get them up to speed with the physical requirements. allow them to deal with home sickness. Perhaps a three week class. I'm willing to wager more would make it if they did this. To a lot of them the initial shock is too much and it psych's them out before they can know if they can hack it or not. Seems like this would be a better and less expensive way for the military to deal with this.

Response by Dana Sala Richman made Sep 24 at 2017 11:00 AM

Dana Sala Richman — Sun, 24 Sep 2017 11:00:00 -0400

Yes, is this not a free country? I agree with LTJG, they should be allowed to exit rather than place other Soldiers at risk in theater because this is not that life for them. Unfortunately SIT's do no realize until basic training that they cannot carry out the missions. True strength comes in being able to stand up and say, hey I made mistake, now let's fix it....

Response by CA Delete D. made Feb 14 at 2018 11:13 PM

CA Delete D. — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 23:13:15 -0500

Let em out. No drama or dirty looks, but make sure to shut their pay off immediately and get them on a bus home at their own expense. Recoup costs via wage garnishment or as an offset on their next tax refund. Also, the re-code will probably be listed as "N/A" simce they will have less than 180 days, but if they wanna split while in bootcamp then they should probably just be designated an RE-4 so they can't pull that "I wanna give it another try" bullshit because they can't afford to return to school and are working some minimum wage job going nowhere. Clear the path for folks who took the oath and contract seriously. One has the opportunity to ask questions and make an informed decision before signing.

http://military.findlaw.com/administrative-issues-benefits/what-is-a-military-enlistment-contract.html

What is a Military Enlistment Contract?

Basics of the military enlistment contract for enlisted service members.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 24 at 2018 3:22 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 15:22:27 -0400

They quite early, let them pay the gov't back for their training costs! Damn snowflakes

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Mar 24 at 2018 5:56 PM

Capt Tom Brown — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 17:56:17 -0400

No but staff should be able to discharge those who are unsuitable on the spot, rather than sending them on for others to continually deal with for the rest of their enlistment!

Response by SSG Marshall Paul made Jan 22 at 2019 8:40 PM

SSG Marshall Paul — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:40:21 -0500

I do not think it was an option in '67, so it shocks me to hear of it. Maybe our way was not the right way, however. So I will read others' thoughts with interest.

Response by Sgt Carlos Perez made Jan 22 at 2019 9:00 PM

Sgt Carlos Perez — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 21:00:07 -0500

If it’s a discharge it should be other then honorable, our arm forces have been Depleted thru our pass administration, but now we have a leader at the helm, and hopefully he will bring our great arm forces to the top again. We have a leader thru Trump our President who cares for country and believe in power thru strength, our men and women of our arm forces should be second to none. I for one do not want to see our military weaken ever again.

Response by SGT George Smith made Jan 23 at 2019 2:02 AM

SGT George Smith — Wed, 23 Jan 2019 02:02:33 -0500

XHell no!!

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Feb 13 at 2019 11:13 PM

CSM Patrick Durr — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 23:13:44 -0500

I spent 3 years a drill sergeant and 2 years an OSUT Infantry 1SG. In my experience, every trainee wanted to quit at least once. Given the chance, many would have that ultimately went on to graduate and be quite successful. So, no. If they choose to go through the process of pattern of misconduct or the mental hygiene route by lying...then let the characterization of the discharge so reflect for at least a short time. Tough lessons learned for today's youth.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Feb 14 at 2019 2:45 PM

SFC Byron Perry — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:45:00 -0500

Nope

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 2 at 2019 2:30 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 02 Apr 2019 14:30:18 -0400

I don't want a quitter in the Army.

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Jun 8 at 2019 1:15 PM

SPC Gary Welch — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 13:15:08 -0400

If they can't handle basic kick them out their going to be a drag on whatever unit they go to

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Jun 29 at 2019 1:32 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 13:32:40 -0400

No. Last week.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jun 29 at 2019 8:20 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 20:20:48 -0400

That is a terrible idea. Make them honor their commitments

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2019 11:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 23:06:43 -0400

I think the bigger question to address is why/how these individuals were allowed to join in the first place? I fully agree the Army isn't for everyone, but I also think it reflects poorly on the Army that we're letting in people who are unfit to serve from day 1. Another consideration is the potential backlash from such a policy. Would the wrong type of people be willing to join now that there's a way to voluntarily withdraw from Basic Training?

Response by SFC Russell Bettinger made Aug 6 at 2019 7:52 PM

SFC Russell Bettinger — Tue, 06 Aug 2019 19:52:12 -0400

HELL NO ,MY Basic 1968 M.C.R.D. San Diego. Sure The Hell Was not Fun,was being trained for War not a Picnic .QUIT Never.6 year Marines another 20 ARMY retired age 60. Combat Veteran yes, Retired as Bn Master Gunner.

Response by PFC Edmond M. Austin made Aug 8 at 2019 11:02 AM

PFC Edmond M. Austin — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:02:56 -0400

Sign a contract in the World and back out you get sued for damages.

Response by SPC Johnny Middleton made Aug 30 at 2019 10:32 AM

SPC Johnny Middleton — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:32:55 -0400

No! I hated boot camp and so did Just about about every trainee in my unit but we made it through and became pretty dam good soldiers. I hated my DI but after many years I came to realize that the toughness he installed in us saved our lives. Thank you Sgt Robinson.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2019 9:48 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 21:48:13 -0400

They do give participation awards at graduation...not quittters. Recycling usually did the trick. LOL

Response by SGT George Smith made Sep 4 at 2019 6:22 PM

SGT George Smith — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 18:22:12 -0400

We need to teach these quitters there is no easy out. Grow up and be an adult. It used to be our military was the greatest light bulb for young people. If we, America, don’t turn these kids around this country is doomed. As too discharge there used to be a “Discharged for the good of the service”. I don’t know if there was a payback provision or not. Life isn’t eSy. Step up, do the work.

Response by SPC Michael Bolarakis made Sep 4 at 2019 6:39 PM

SPC Michael Bolarakis — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 18:39:40 -0400

NO!

Response by SPC Michael Bolarakis made Sep 4 at 2019 6:43 PM

SPC Michael Bolarakis — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 18:43:03 -0400

What happens when there’s a draft? The choice, may not compromise are readiness today, BUT! Tomorrow, it very well could.

Response by SGT Michael Heffner made Oct 4 at 2019 9:04 PM

SGT Michael Heffner — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:04:16 -0400

You knew what you were getting into before you signed & raised your right hand. So no!!!! That's what wrong today, The easy out!!!! I don't like it here so I'm going to take my ball & go home mentality. I went to BCT in "89" the weaker troops were brought upto speed with help from their platoon mates... Go back to old school hip pocket training.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2019 12:45 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 00:45:27 -0400

I went through basic training at Ft. Dix in 83. 2 days after starting I wrote jokes on my paperwork. Got called into Senior Drill's office and asked about it. I cracked a joke and started laughing hysterically, Senior Drill never even cracked a smile and I knew I was in real trouble.
I said since you will dog me to the end I quit and want to go home. His reply was I don't dog, I train. But he did agree that I should go home, just have to run it by the 1Sg , will take about a week. Week of training goes by, 1Sg approved it. Now has to be approved by CO. Alright, going home. End of week CO approved it. Now has to go to BC. Another week approved. Oh yeah end of fourth week, sign here. What? No f...ing way, I am half way through. Sfc Tussilla was an awesome DI and a great leader and he knew exactly what he was doing. To this day I thank him for that. I finished near the top of the class and did 8years. Got out in 91. Missed it for years and in 2006 joined the NG. Still at it but nearing the end of my usable service time. Got a bit banged up overseas and am getting medboarded out. But no you sign a contract you stick to it. Hopefully there is still good leadership in basic like I had

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Nov 7 at 2019 3:50 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 03:50:06 -0500

ABSOLUTELY!! After 30 days confinement in Kansas!!

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2019 11:17 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 11:17:28 -0500

No, but if society approves, let them work off the cost incurred by government through community service. No free lunch for the able but unwilling.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Nov 7 at 2019 1:11 PM

SGT Robert Wager — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 13:11:17 -0500

I believe that until you graduate BCT you are essentially a civilian transforming to a soldier. That is the reason there are entry level separations. It is TRADOC’s responsibility to deliver quality, motivated, and trained soldiers to the regular Army.

Some people truly want to be a soldier but simply do not have the military mindset to succeed. It is the Drill Sergeant’s job to weed out those that cannot adapt. If through counseling and observing the recruits progress in training it is determined that he will not become a quality soldier then that person should be removed from the service without prejudice. The first step in that process is identifying those individuals who realize early that they made a mistake in joining and removing them from other trainees as their bad attitudes will spread like a cancer.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 7 at 2019 8:09 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 20:09:33 -0500

Yes because I don't want quitters in the military.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Monk made Nov 10 at 2019 12:14 AM

SSG Jeffrey Monk — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 00:14:30 -0500

Personally I feel you should let them go. If they are willing to quit in basic what will they do when things get really hard. Cut the dead weight. I'd rather have half a squad of soldiers than a full strength squad where half of us are carrying the slack for the rest. That was the one thing I liked serving under the Clinton Admin. Higher recruit standards and even easier to chapter people out.

Response by SPC Geoffrey Jenkins made Dec 10 at 2019 7:29 AM

SPC Geoffrey Jenkins — Tue, 10 Dec 2019 07:29:07 -0500

only if the soldier is mentally fucked up and can't make the transition from civilian to military life,but quit is not an option,I got my ass kicked by a drill Sgt(I was the comedian and I deserved)lol
I turned out alright/lol

Response by PV2 Ross Bryan made Jan 5 at 2020 10:11 PM

PV2 Ross Bryan — Sun, 05 Jan 2020 22:11:32 -0500

I WOULD HAVE BEEN OVERJOYED!!
I NEVER WANTED TO BE MILITARY!!
THE ONLY REASON I JOINED THE ARMY RESERVES WAS THE DRAFT NEARLY GOT ME!!
HOW EVER WHEN I WENT TO BASIC I HAD DECIDED TO MAKE THE BEST OF IT!!
THEN I WAS BADLY HARRASSED BECAUSE OF MY BALANCE AND INABILITY TO MARCH AND DRILL PERFECTLY!
I HAD ALWAYS BEEN A KLUTZ ALL MY LIFE!
I ENDED UP BEING A VEHICLE MECHANIC
AND WAS GOOD AT IT!!
BUT THEN I WAS RAGGED FOR HAVING DIRTY AND GREASY CLOTHES WHILE DOING DIRTY AND GREASY WORK!!
ALL IN ALL A TOTAL WASTE OF MY LIFE!!

Response by SPC Andrew Murray made Jan 24 at 2020 7:16 AM

SPC Andrew Murray — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 07:16:00 -0500

Yes quitting should absolutely be allowed. Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier and not everyone realizes that when the recruiter gets them to sign the paperwork. That's the whole point of a failure to adapt discharge. I'd rather have people who want to be there.

Response by LCpl Bradley Otto made Mar 23 at 2020 7:35 PM

LCpl Bradley Otto — Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:35:08 -0400

There are minimums that have to be met. The recruiters have min skills needed to qualify for basic training. That said every branch has in place also a list of disqualifying items that would be compiled during recruit training. I can only speak about the Marine Corps, the Instructor's(DI's) are charged with turning slimy cilvians into raw basic Marines. That said there are only a few ways I re all you could get out of basic, 1) Medical issues that arise during training that make it unsafe for the recruit to continue. Heart, lung, and many other issues. 2) Mental derress , during the 13 week training, evaluations are given and observations by the DI's are reported to the Senior Staff and Company Commander for further eval.
3) Any recruit that is deemed a danger to theirselves or others and after extended consulting can be discharged.
To the best of memory if you as a recruit can write to your district senator and pled your help, but should the DI's should find out, your counseling will begin on the 1/4 deck and continue to insure you truly feel you want to leave... Semper Fi

Response by GySgt Herman Poe made Apr 20 at 2020 8:29 PM

GySgt Herman Poe — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:29:48 -0400

Give them a dishonorable discharge and six months in the brig. Lesson one in contracts

Response by PO2 Ronnie Chandler made Jul 24 at 2020 5:47 PM

PO2 Ronnie Chandler — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 17:47:57 -0400

Forced to complete if I had not had that I would have quit which would have been terrible

Response by SFC Sean Funkhouser made Jul 26 at 2020 11:36 PM

SFC Sean Funkhouser — Sun, 26 Jul 2020 23:36:10 -0400

It should be a dishonorable discharge regardless of time served.

Response by HN Alan Dignan made Dec 2 at 2020 6:43 PM

HN Alan Dignan — Wed, 02 Dec 2020 18:43:48 -0500

They should be treated like when I went to Navy Boot Camp. Those who had dicipld

Response by HN Alan Dignan made Dec 2 at 2020 7:01 PM

HN Alan Dignan — Wed, 02 Dec 2020 19:01:37 -0500

They should not be discharged before 120 days except for medical or mental reasons. When I went to Navy Boot Camp. If you were a screw up, you went to the MIC company. If they didn't straighten you out, then you weren't worth having. The only ones who marched better were the stockade prisoners going to the meal hall. I could not blieve it when I was told you only had to tell your NCO you wanted out.

Response by GySgt Herman Poe made Dec 6 at 2020 9:11 PM

GySgt Herman Poe — Sun, 06 Dec 2020 21:11:45 -0500

My knee jerk reaction is trash him. But if we keep, The trainee if he is passed. Well then he may be the guy next to you in combat. So give him a dishonorable.

Response by Cpl Ricardo Toledo made Dec 6 at 2020 10:50 PM

Cpl Ricardo Toledo — Sun, 06 Dec 2020 22:50:26 -0500

In my opinion when I went to Bootcamp (1989). I didn't even know you had choices to quit. It never crossed my mind. Lets be honest though your recruiter doesn't exactly explain to you the realities of Boot camp. He's just racking up poolees. If within the first week you honestly feel it's not for you they should be able to duscharge you without ruining your young future. That is all

Response by COL George Antochy made Feb 25 at 2021 5:41 PM

COL George Antochy — Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:41:37 -0500

They should be allowed to be dropped. If not some Commander will have to deal with the individual latter. Better to cut our losses sooner than later. I would then issue a bar for the individual from future Military or Federal Service for 5 years, and bar them from Federal assistance (grants, EBT, welfare, loans). People need to understand that there are consequences for their actions. Grow up snowflake.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2021 12:07 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:07:45 -0400

If you sign up for the military, Swear in,(most likely at MEPS when you complete your physical and then the day you leave for boot camp), You have had ample time to change your mind. You are signing a binding contract. Which is most likely the first adult thing you have done up to that point. Suck it up and get through it. In the end of it all, you will be a better person for it.
Do your homework and learn what is expected of you before you sign up. Tons of YouTube videos out there for basic training.
So no, I do not think anyone should be able to quit without repercussions. A lot of money will be spent on you on your journey. Only caveat I guess would be that you have to pay back what the military has spent on you, to include your trip back home. My 2 Cents

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 26 at 2021 3:55 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:55:36 -0400

They absolutely should be able to quit.
Army Basic training is not hard. If they can't handle that, then we don't need or want them in uniform. Get the ones that can't hack it out early, before we've invested too much into them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2021 4:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:11:20 -0400

They could always quit. The only question is how much time should they serve before they are set free. They should have to pay back the investment,

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 26 at 2021 4:15 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:15:34 -0400

No, money and time invested warrants the contract the very reason it exists is for ROI. Secondarily what doe we then teach about commitment, this is another slippery slope for our military. Change is good when there is practicality and common sense applied.

My thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2021 6:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:11:29 -0400

Just realized this is an old post...

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Oct 26 at 2021 10:20 PM

MSgt Steve Sweeney — Tue, 26 Oct 2021 22:20:33 -0400

Ask yourself.... Would you want to serve with someone that really didn't want to be there? Would you want to lead troops that didn't want to be there, or find yourself in a position subordinate to someone that didn't want to be there?

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Oct 27 at 2021 4:11 PM

SPC Roger Giffen — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:11:15 -0400

In 1974, quitting was not an option available. But I can see letting some go. They will become a problem for the platoon during training. I do agree they signed a contract and should honor their word.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Oct 27 at 2021 4:23 PM

SPC Steven Depuy — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:23:41 -0400

As long as they don't get an honorable discharge, I don't want them in a fox hole next to mine anyway.

Response by TSgt Gary McPherson made Oct 27 at 2021 5:16 PM

TSgt Gary McPherson — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:16:30 -0400

I;m a retired USAF but a FORMER Marine.my boot camp was 1956.Living hell for 12 weeks.I saw some who flat could not make it and were let out.Back then one could NOT just say I quite.One man tryed to kill himself on the range because he failed to qual.Yes it was rough but those who worked to get out I would NOT like to have them with me on combat.If boot was too rough then what would combat be like for them. Military' has changes a lot.I have always been thankful I went through Marine boot as it made me grow up in a hurry and helped we throughout my USAF time.Let the DIs boot them out but with out honor..Now the ones how tried hard and failed are a different story.Let them out but with honor.

Response by SSgt Randall Morrow made Oct 27 at 2021 5:25 PM

SSgt Randall Morrow — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:25:07 -0400

No, get rid of them! They will only be a problem when they are sent to a post. They are not really motivated to finish and do not have the discipline. This happened to many back in the 1970s So many soldiers that should not have been in were stationed at Ft. Carson and it was a MESS. This was during the last of the Vietnam era soldiers recruited to serve.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Oct 27 at 2021 6:44 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 18:44:42 -0400

Mixed feelings here. Boot Camps are supposed to test your mettle. So Id encourage those weaklings to not don a uniform. No shade...it ain’t for everybody.

There is a difference between being a Marine Infantryman, and enlisting into the easiest/safest/non-deployable branch/job (Air Force supply clerk?) ... and if you can’t even handle that, then Id ask how you handle eating food and converting it to poop...and maybe service is what you need to get yourself parented in the areas where your parents failed.

On the other hand, SERVICE is supposed to me more about what you can do for it, and less about what it can do for you.

Response by PFC Anthony Bruce made Oct 28 at 2021 3:41 AM

PFC Anthony Bruce — Thu, 28 Oct 2021 03:41:07 -0400

They want out, let them out. I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with someone that didn't want to be there.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2021 1:17 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:17:53 -0400

Had bronchial pneumonia in 64 65 due to the crap from the old coal fired furnaces at ft leonard wood.dec jan feb. I would have recycled rather than quit!@@.toughed it out. Served 6 years e5 in 3.

Response by LTC Kim Ready made Oct 28 at 2021 6:44 PM

LTC Kim Ready — Thu, 28 Oct 2021 18:44:44 -0400

I feel you sign a contract and make a commitment. What is your word worth, if you raise your right hand and make that commitment and then just walk away with no consequences if you don't like it. What does that say about you as a person?

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Oct 29 at 2021 2:22 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:22:32 -0400

It’s a sad reflection on our society, when it gets tough or hard just quit and collect free shit for life, no effort required. They should be put in the stocks and let the Sr classes torment them and pelt them with rotten fruit. Embarrass them then give then a dishonorable discharge that sticks fir life, you signed a contract, you took an oath...twice, anytime before that you could have just gone home.