Should Veterans receive special treatment in Court after committing a crime?

2014-12-02T19:34:08-05:00

In most states, the Court is recognizing Veterans that have committed a crime and offering a different type of program to them. (In line with the probation that they may already be granted). How do the masses feel about it?

I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 7:39 PM

2014-12-02T19:39:08-05:00

I'd say yes, if the situation were such that the person's status as a veteran was something the court should consider.

Veteran's Courts for situations where a veteran acted out due to PTSD or injury have been very successful getting veterans to help instead of putting them in jail.

Response by PFC Aaron Knapp made Dec 2 at 2014 7:46 PM

2014-12-02T19:46:46-05:00

We are still responsible for our own actions. While I believe they need special training for LEOs to deal with Vets there are enough programs available both in and out of the Service that we need to create a culture of utilizing the programs available to us. Otherwise we just continue to justify the idea that PTSD is an excuse. If your suffering from PTSD reach out to someone and get help before you do something that you and the military community will regret. Check you head space and timing folks. And I'm not trivializing it... But there is help and support groups out there, let's use them.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 2 at 2014 9:50 PM

2014-12-02T21:50:56-05:00

The outreach programs offered by "Veterans' Court" usually focuses on insisting on the veteran accepting responsibility for their actions and seeking the help needed to correct the behavior.
Most veterans are running into the problem of compounded issues that are getting them into trouble. Rather than it being a single act, it is a cascade effect of decisions made under less than optimal conditions. Prescription drug abuse and self-medication is usually what leads to these lapses in judgment, mainly related to untreated service related behavior patterns.

The outreach helps bring these issues to the attention of both the veteran as well as assistance programs to get the veteran help that he hasn't had before. Call it a triage.

There are already over 230,000 American Veterans serving time in prison. 150,000 will experience homelessness in the next year. Over 8000 will kill themselves.

As Veterans, we represent less than 7% of the US population. While our at risk group is smaller, a little more than 3%, proving that we are more adaptable over all, 10% of prisoners are vets, 20% of suicides, and 25% of the homeless have worn a uniform in their lifetime. I'm going to say causation here may mean a greater need to extend a hand to those veterans rather than throw them away.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-12-02T21:55:31-05:00

With extremely rare exceptions, whenever a question is prefaced by "should veterans receive special treatment for ____," my answer is always the same. No, veterans should not receive special treatment. We are not above civilians, and we should not expect to be treated as such.

This is one of those exceptions.

As 1SG Private RallyPoint Member has said, veterans courts have been successful in getting veterans suffering from psychological issues help instead of just throwing them into a cell which helps nobody. When someone breaks a law and is sentenced yes there is punishment involved, but as important if not more so is the rehabilitation. These veteran courts seem to offer significant improvements to the latter, which in my opinion gives enough merit to offer "special treatment."

Response by SPC Matthew Farnsworth made Dec 3 at 2014 4:26 PM

2014-12-03T16:26:10-05:00

If a person has a significant criminal history no they should not receive special consideration. A SM who made a mistake should (depending on the charge) receive special consideration depending on the circumstances.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Dec 30 at 2014 9:34 AM

2014-12-30T09:34:33-05:00

Nope. You're a citizen like anyone else. UCMJ provides for uniquely military issues, but your career choice does not grant you special privileges in terms of civil crimes. We all live under the same social contract.

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 31 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-12-31T10:26:54-05:00

Vets Definitely need help. I will share one of two personal experiences. I was permanently retired from army after LOD investigation determined I have permanent irreversible damage to both lungs. After being discharged from the ER for acute broncospasm. I wasn't responding to treatment and thought they were going to have to admit me. I drove my kid out of state to stay with my parents. I got pulled over in front of my parents house and charged with DUI and Child endangerment for failure to successfully do a breathalyzer test. I explained my health situation and attempted it 8 times with two different city cops who cuffed me and took me to jail. It's considered a refusal and Automatic DUI. I produced the documents to the city judge. The letter on VA letter head from my doctor that my lung capacity is reduced and would interfere with the ability to successfully complete breathalyzer test. I also produced documents of ER Visit . I was denied a court appointed Attny bc it's not required in city court. The city judge barely thumbed through the

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 31 at 2014 10:57 AM

2014-12-31T10:57:48-05:00

Continued... City judge barely thumbed through the documents. The little Podunk city got thousands of dollars into the city coffers and I got labeled for life. My license was suspend for 6 months. I chose not to get my license back because of fear of being pulled over with my daughter in the car. My closest family is 7 hours away and that would put my kid in child protective services nightmare. My dad said that city has such a history of corruption that they all should be put under the jail. To answer your question yes vets need help but not because we are SPECIAL. A veteran legal representative may have been able to see that I was it least treated fairly. Think about what that label would do to your life, your career, your volunteer opportunities. I have to stop here before I go into all the things that would get me Baker Acted.

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Dec 31 at 2014 11:00 AM

2014-12-31T11:00:14-05:00

This is a very good question. It depends on the severity of the crime and history of the military member. I’ve seen Court go on both sides – due to your service to our country you are hereby sentenced to probation etc, etc, etc…There have been major penalties for military members who have been charged with public disturbances / domestic violence due to PTSD. They were told that because of your trainings you should have been able to control your temper and were sentenced to harder terms because of that.
You are responsible for your actions – you should be treated fairly in a court of law.
On a personal note I have received special treatment with traffic violations.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 31 at 2014 11:34 AM

2014-12-31T11:34:53-05:00

Heinlein wrote about how holding trials for Veterans conducted only by Veterans could lead to a large separation in society in Starship Troopers.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Dec 31 at 2014 1:42 PM

2014-12-31T13:42:13-05:00

Justice should never be administered automatically without due deliberation.

I have long argued in opposition to the "Three Strikes" laws. How silly to base justice on a baseball metaphor. Rigid sentencing guidelines are the result of our failure to trust our judges. Wouldn't it be better to replace the judges than attempt to determine just punishments at a distance, say from legislative chambers?

Thus, veterans who commit crimes should be judged as fairly as all other perpetrators. If they suffer a disability that influenced their criminal behavior, a disability that might mitigate the punishment rendered to any other criminal, then that should be taken into consideration. But to automatically assume that veterans suffer some sort of mental or emotional disability and because of it, their punishment must be mitigated is to assume that all veterans are somehow defective. Do you believe that? I don't...

Response by CPL Rick Stasny made Dec 31 at 2014 5:22 PM

2014-12-31T17:22:14-05:00

As someone who has spent the last two decades working around inmates. I feel that alternative sentencing may be a very good option for minor offenses, but violent crimes should not be considered for these options. I have an open door policy and encourage the inmates to voice their concerns prior to them becoming problems. I recently had an inmate throw the PTSD card at me, and more so as a threat to get his way. I made all of the appropriate referrals for him. In which he was non compliant with the psychs and anyone he encountered. Sipply put, he was a violent inmate and in complete denial of his crime. He did not want to take personal responsibility in society or behind bars. He was actually shocked that the officers could tell him what to do. I turned it around and said, well as a soldier you had to follow orders and you will here too.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Dec 31 at 2014 8:34 PM

2014-12-31T20:34:38-05:00

If a veteran does have PTSD or some other mitigating condition then that should be taken into account and the vet get the proper treatment. A good example would be a vet with PTSD and a problem in crowds gets bumped hard and goes off. That would be a mitigating circumstance to me.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Dec 31 at 2014 9:43 PM

2014-12-31T21:43:25-05:00

Yes and No.

In making sentencing determinations, Judges (State, County and Federal) utilize the resources available to them, which includes a Pre-Sentence Investigation &Pre-Sentence Report by a Probation Officer. The history of the defendant would be taken into consideration when formulating a sentence that will cease the errant behavior and punish appropriately.

Special treatment? As in should the crime be discounted? No, I (having spent a tremendous amount of time involved with the Courts) know that Probation Officers report accurately to the Court and the Court takes their opinions/information seriously into the formulation of those sentences. The Veteran should speak honestly and openly about "what is up" and either get the help needed or face the music.

There are situations where Pre-Trial Diversion can be an option and in some cases may be a viable solution, but I don't necessarily see that as "special treatment"

In cases of PTSD/Emotional Disorders-Mental Disorders/Addictions, I believe that open and honest conversation with the Court/Probation will lead to the getting of the appropriate help.

Veteran status does not constitute a pass.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 31 at 2014 9:50 PM

2014-12-31T21:50:39-05:00

What are Vererans? Oh, typo...never mind.

It is all about the details but overall, I think they should get special treatment...the heaviest book they can find should be thrown at them, they are supposed to know better.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 10:51 PM

2014-12-31T22:51:06-05:00

It depends on the circumstances but I do believe veterans courts are beneficial. Vets with mental illness or PTSD may not really comprehend the seriousness of their crimes. They really need to be understood and helped. And we can't just treat everyone the same. Because some people just indiscriminately, intentionally with no remorse commit crimes against property and persons. They know what they have done planned it and carried it out. Those are individuals that do not deserve reasonable doubt.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 11:26 PM

2014-12-31T23:26:11-05:00

I think we all can agree to an extent that we must keep in mind the enduring debt we owe our country’s military Veterans. There are serious challenges our men and women face when returning home. Sadly some of the challenges they face are substance abuse, psychological health issues. Even sadder is that it can often lead to destructive and criminal behaviors.

Let's not kid ourselves, many of these issues have a direct connection to combat trauma, MST, and other service related connections. Does it require appropriate measure to address them? most certainly. Unlike most courts, veteran's courts were modeled after drug courts. Their inception (Veteran Courts) in 2008 were to do just that, to treat Veterans who suffered from substance abuse(alcohol or drug) and mental health issues. The courts are designed to address the particular needs when Veterans are entering the criminal justice system. Is it a perfect system? no, it's far from perfect but it's start.

Like most Veteran Treatment Courts(VTCs), in the 30 or so states that have I have researched so far, there is startling theme. Judicial, correctional, drug/alcohol treatment centers, mental health providers, faith based counseling and other community support groups collaborate with one another to make sure these veterans get the treatment they need. With the help of VTCs, Veterans get sober, they recover, they get some stability to get back on the right track to becoming responsible citizens in their community. This program also promotes public safety. We've all heard the bad stuff concerning Veterans, PTS/PTSD and the media blows it so way out of proportion and its so negative, of course there's always a stigma about Veterans.

Drawbacks, sure there's drawbacks, this is a court system that is still new, not every state has a court in each county. Some states are talking about having a court in major cities where there is heavy Veteran population. One of the unique things about VTCs is there's a screening process before they see the inside of one. Each state has a different requirement. Most courts I found share certain prerequisites, for example:
that the Veteran has been charged with a non-violent crime only
that the Veteran had been diagnosed with substance abuse and or mental health problems
as of result of their military service
In some courts, they only accept Veterans with issue directly related to their combat experiences only.

One very unique detail is that the veteran must admit guilt, there is no "plea agreement", there is no "not guilty", the veteran must admit their guilt before admitted into the program; there is accountability.

In the history of the drug and mental health courts there is precedent that holds true to today, violent offenders are excluded form the program and that framework has been applied to the VTCs. So consider this, do we exclude treatment for Veterans who commit violent crimes? Is there not some correlation between violent crimes and a Veteran's combat experiences which is inherently violent? I can't speak for everyone's combat experiences, as to how violent they were. But isn't it feasible? How many cases of domestic violence occurred on the base/post after units(s) returned from deployment did you hear about?

Ladies & gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than us. It will take time to get where we need to be. The problem can't be solved overnight as it wasn't created overnight. I'll be bluntly honest, it's hard for me to accept that someones dishonorable or other than honorable discharge is somehow less deserving of treatment from someone who served honorably. I disagree with a system that cherry picks not taking into account of set of bad circumstances have driven someone so far down a rabbit hole and for them there is no light as they look above them, no hope, I want to have hope for that someone. I know, someone may say "SSG Garza, you can't save everyone", I can't accept that, I may be the odd one here that thinks that, if so, then so be it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 3:19 AM

2015-01-01T03:19:07-05:00

No. They committed a crime. They should get the same punishment as our civilian counterparts. But there should be some consideration due to there may be some under lying issues (PTSD, drug/alcohol abuse).

But to give them a pass because they put the uniform on is no reason for special privileges.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 9:44 AM

2015-01-01T09:44:51-05:00

Yes, by all means! The need to fix the underlying behavior will make that veteran less of a drain of resources and by virtue of their service, it is the least we can do.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-01-01T13:02:18-05:00

I have always felt that the best form of discipline was to use the minimum force necessary to alter the behavior. I use that with my children; I use that with my Soldiers.

In the case of crime, a judge needs to decide what kind of cat stands in front of them. My personal opinion:
1. First-time offender who made a mistake - this person is probably embarrassed by their behavior and wants to make amends. Most effective response: a mentor who can guide them away from making mistakes and give them alternatives.
2. First-time offender who is on a bad path - this person might not understand that their life is at a crossroads. Most effective response: some sort of "scared straight" program. This person needs to look into the abyss and decide to turn away... or not.
3. Repeat offender with an addiction problem (ie drugs, kleptomania, sexual offenders) - need professional help, not jail. They may struggle forever with their disorders, but with correct treatment, may be functional and not dangerous to society.
4. Repeat offenders that commit crimes for "entertainment" or some kind of "getting even with those who have things that I don't"- most likely, these people are running with the wrong crowd. Most effective: hook them up with the "right crowd". This is something the military excels at - and a reason that once upon a time enlisting was an alternative sentence.
5. Repeat offenders who are genuine sociopaths - people who have a problem and act out by attacking others. Most effective: lock them up and throw away the key.

I realize that this is a bit simplistic, but a judge has to measure what will be most effective at ending the behavior. In my opinion, mandatory sentences are wrong-headed.
In the case of veterans, there is a very high probability that they fall into a category where prison is not the right answer. A court that specializes in common veterans' issues will have a better chance to find the right solutions.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Jan 1 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-01-01T13:27:51-05:00

I see the answers to your question go off on several tangents. I see this as fairly simple.

(1) If in a civilian court, no. Equal justice for all. If the crime was committed because of some psychological factor, it should have the same attention as a civilian who had psychological factors. Some judges have been know to go lighter on a veteran than a civilian because of their contribution in a combat zone or even for serving when others have not, but that is normally on lesser charges.
(2) In a military court . . . yes . . . Isn't that why we have our own special laws and codes such as the Uniform Code of Military Justice. We have various level of justice such as Office Hours or Article 15 and different levels of Courts Martials?

Response by Sgt Dale Cusack made Jan 1 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-01-01T15:04:49-05:00

I too feel that it needs to be decided on a case by case basis. I do not believe that a veteran that is otherwise normal and does not have PTSD or Brain Injuries from combat should be treated and anyone else that committed the offense they are accused of. For those that are not familiar with the old axiom, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime holds for everyone!

I don't really believe that giving a wounded warrior, especially with PTSD, the benefit of the doubt and working to get them help they have earned and deserve rather than throwing them into a prison because it is easier to sweep under the carpet than deal with. I also do not think it is fair for a veteran, active or not, to receive higher levels of punishment for protecting themselves in violent situations just because of the training they received.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Jan 1 at 2015 6:48 PM

2015-01-01T18:48:37-05:00

On some areas you can work with the veterans but serious offenses should be handled on the seriousness.

Response by SMSgt David Zobel made Jan 1 at 2015 8:45 PM

2015-01-01T20:45:10-05:00

Most codes, like the one in California, require some logical connection between the charged behavior and a combat related disability. That means it has to be a logical connection as accepted by both the prosecution and the judge. That's not an automatic hurdle. The special treatment is usually associated with sentencing, not with finding, so the conviction is not usually set aside until after a successfully completed alternate sentence. Because of where I work, I get to meet such veterans with regularity, and I've yet to meet one that was simply getting over on the system. It's a good deal that seems to be being used to good ends.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jan 1 at 2015 10:01 PM

2015-01-01T22:01:17-05:00

YES, call me biased if you will but for the 1% of our country that raise their hand to put their butt on the line and volunteer....I say they deserve special consideration.

Now, don't get crazy - we have to be held accountable I don't mean a get out of jail free card, but our Veterans deserve special consideration for their service.

Response by CW2 Martin Brannan made Jan 2 at 2015 1:41 PM

2015-01-02T13:41:23-05:00

Veteran status should always be a consideration when adjudicating criminal conduct. While it seldom excuses criminal conduct, it may explain conduct and serve as mitigation. It will certainly be used to show knowledge or intent when relevant, so the blade of justice should cut both ways.

Most veterans' courts do not permit serious offenses to be adjudicated in them and many require the acquiescence of crime victims before victim crimes can be heard there, as well. The only felony offenses that would probably fall into veterans' courts jurisdiction would be drug crimes and, in all likelihood, a community forward-looking enough to have a veterans' court would also have a drug court for those offenses.

The vast majority of veterans' court cases deal with status crimes - public intoxication, loitering, disorderly conduct, petty theft, shoplifting, etc. Considering that most veterans, whether they serve in combat or not, suffer some form of adjustment disorder when returning to civilian life, these types of offenses are very common for veterans and should be dealt with in a compassionate way that serves to rehabilitate rather than stigmatize.

As a prosecutor, I always considered a defendant's status as a veteran in seeking appropriate justice. That consideration did not always result in different treatment for the veteran. In fact, it was probably outweighed by other factors more often than not, but when appropriate it did result in giving a break to the vet.

Additionally, I, and most career prosecutors I know, always treated unrepresented defendants with special attention. The goal of a professional prosecutor is not to obtain convictions but to obtain justice. Justice is subverted anytime someone is unfairly treated based solely on their not being able to afford an attorney and yet not qualifying for court-appointed counsel. If you are faced with the criminal justice system and aren't sure whether you are entitled to counsel, a general rule of thumb is this 1 - if you can afford counsel, you are always entitled to legal representation, 2 - if you face the possibility of serving jail time, you are always entitled to counsel and court-appointed counsel if you are indigent, 3 - if the offense will not result in incarceration but carries a serious non-jail punishment (in Arizona, for example, the loss of certain rights/privileges or the requirement of registering as a sex offender) you are entitled to court-appointed counsel if indigent. A bit more free advice - whatever you tell the judge can be used against you, so it's better to remain silent than admit culpability and pleading not guilty even if you believe you are guilty is almost always the better course of action. Just because you may have done something illegal doesn't necessarily mean you are guilty of a crime. Most crimes require criminal intent on your part, not just a criminal action, and you will always be better served if you can talk to an attorney (or even a parent or close friend who can give you objective advice) than pleading guilty at your initial appearance.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Jan 2 at 2015 6:54 PM

2015-01-02T18:54:10-05:00

It would really depend upon the Offense and the Circumstances surrounding the crime. If you were in Clarksville TN, and want to sleep in your car after you leave a bar, should you be charged with a DUI? But, if you beat someone to a Bloody Pulp while in a drunken stupor, then yes. If you're sober and beat someone to a pulp while having flash backs, then there maybe something more to the story and another way to handle to problem

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 7:43 PM

2015-01-02T19:43:33-05:00

Yes, Veterans that have been in especially for some time and those that have returned from arduous duty stations and situations have been trained and have evolved to act and respond to a certain set of rules to conduct.
Then if in another country their are those laws and most certainly those laws are at times different to the extremes from our own.
Then they come home, be it a standard and "normal" return to the American ways and laws with also different community standards or even they come home to a situation that requires additional assistance to come back home both physically and emotionally.
War is hell, the reduction of life to true either I kill you or you kill me, the life on the edge in submarines deployed for many months at a time, advance teams of special forces and the like and the list goes on. We have, most all that have served a career anyway, lived the life of some duty on the edge, that caused total focus on that standard of duty, even if it was contrary to all internal "moral" standards. The value system of survival and war, ......

Veterans are entitled to a jury of their peers. The only way to do that is to put them in a situation where they can be honestly evaluated, tried and then dealt with as a member of the community is if we take the time to be honest, the regular citizen has no clue of what this man or woman has "LIVED" and "SURVIVED". Now they need help, some may say no, but it is already proven that these Vets have an extremely high success rate at reintegration into their communities.

Perhaps those that operate or are a part of the prisons for profit don't like this but, so what. ;)

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Jan 3 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-01-03T09:37:36-05:00

Perhaps for minor charges but for anything that civilians could face some serious time for, no. Too many troops today have subscribed to the "hero" label and think they are special and deserve "perks" because they slip on a set of ACU's in the morning. Once the shine wears off of the current rah-rah and it will, they need to know that their actions are not acceptable in a lawful society.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jan 3 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-01-03T09:54:57-05:00

In terms of guilt or innocence. Absolutely not. A crime is a crime. Prior good act(s) are not an excuse for current bad acts and prior military service should not be a "get out of jail free" card. If it ever becomes so then we will see the current esteem that the US population holds the US military evaporate before our eyes.
In terms of extenuation and mitigation. Yes if part of the extenuation/mitigation relates to something that is service connected such as PTSD. This, however, should not be a recurring trend for a single individual. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 10:28 AM

2015-01-03T10:28:49-05:00

I have always felt that rule of law should always prevail. I have seen a disturbing attitude among service members the by putting on the uniform we some how become "holy". We have each chosen this path in life, being a member of any of the armed service does not in any way excuse criminal behavior or immoral choices. As Members and Veterans of the Armed Forces, we need to hold our selves to a standard deserving of the honor given to us by the citizens of this country, and when we fail to do that the full weight of the law should be applied.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 3:06 PM

2015-01-03T15:06:11-05:00

Perhaps some leniency for mild misdemeanors, but felonies should get no clemancy. You know your right from wrong...you choose to one or the other.

Response by SGT Charles Vernier made Jan 3 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-01-03T15:29:43-05:00

No we are not above civilians and yes we are accountable for our own actions. That being said at the low point of my life after my divorce and having my ex take my children from me my vehicle was being repossessed and I attempted to get into the vehicle to retrieve my stuff (including my pistol) at which point the repo man started shoving me. Instead of backing off I reacted as trained and it resulted in me being arrested for misdemeanor battery. Fortunately the judge was willing to dismiss the case when I showed that I had started treatment for PTSD and alcohol.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Jan 3 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-01-03T18:33:06-05:00

I think it depends on the crime. If it is something that can be explained by PTSD or just making a simple mistake then I think we should take it into account. However if there are crimes egregious enough, I believe veterans should be held even more responsible.

Let's say an officer who knows the values and held those under his or her command accountable to them violates the same ones. I think in this case they should be held more responsible since the country trained this officer.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 3 at 2015 6:49 PM

2015-01-03T18:49:06-05:00

If cops get special treatment, I say Vets should get special treatment for their service as well.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 3 at 2015 7:03 PM

2015-01-03T19:03:03-05:00

I could agree that a pretrial "Veterans court" could be useful in sending a Vet down one of two roads.... Either to one side and treated the same as the other criminals.. or to the other road, due to being determined (at least initially) that some service related "illness" or mental dysfunction: was a proximate cause for the crime... And then the special treatment for the vet would amount to a speedy path to mental/ physical health care first,,and THEN to court for the trial of their accused crimes.

I see happening like this.
Vet is caught and charged with possession of Oxy, non prescribed. Vet court determines Vet is a wounded warrior that was prescribed opiates while in, became addicted, and later discharged... sans open prescription pad serving up all the opiates they ask for.. Vet finds the same drugs on the street, gets caught.... Is he wrong? Yes? Is he responsible for his actions. YES.. are there mitigating circumstances... YES.. the requested special Vet treatment.........get him help FIRST... (if he will put in the work) then deal with the crime committed .

Does this sound like a hypothetical? .... Well its not.....its a very real event...all except the Vet court.. that part is what id like to see... the rest of the event is real.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Jan 13 at 2015 11:01 PM

2015-01-13T23:01:07-05:00

No!!

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jan 14 at 2015 12:00 PM

2015-01-14T12:00:02-05:00

NO, UCMJ is more restrictive then the public judicial system, therefore we all know how to conform to laws and utilize discipline. See CPT Jack Durish comment in this string for an excellent point. Just because we have served our country is no excuse to commit crimes against the populace and have them dismiss it due to our service. If the veteran is mentally unstable, then the court has options to deal with that the same as all the other mentally unstable folks residing on the streets of our country.

Response by SSG Rafael Rodriguez made Jan 14 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-01-14T12:08:21-05:00

Aloha TSgt Jackie Jones, Broad question here, it depends on the type of crime and the facts that surround it, don't get me wrong...i am a firm believer that the punishment should fit the crime. Things like PTSD or other mental issues may be in consideration but the bottom line should be that the victims and their family get closure, which does not happen all the time.

Response by SPC John Decker made Jan 16 at 2015 4:30 PM

2015-01-16T16:30:25-05:00

Being a veteran should not matter, one way or another. We all know that there are vets out there that need help. With the V.A. not doing what they should, we have vets out there committing crimes they would not otherwise commit. In that context, YES they should be treated differently.

Response by Cpl Charles Thompson made Jan 16 at 2015 7:17 PM

2015-01-16T19:17:39-05:00

Well things like Drug court I believe yes in certain circumstances. EXAMPLE: prior to 1983 the US, didn't not recognize PTSD, therefore no real treatment (not much different today) for guys back from Vietnam, so they self medicated. Most time landing in prison when they should have been receiving drug treatment and psychological care. I personally know a person who had been using Methamphetamine to escape having to deal with nightmares.He is clean now.My point being and as whole the justice system needs to carefully review these cases.

Response by Sgt Martin V. made Jan 17 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-01-17T02:15:13-05:00

Short answer, NO. My Sergeant Major (Regimental Sergeant Major who deployed with 8th Marines in 2011) once said that because we have served that we are held more accountable for our actions. That has stuck with me through the years and I have thought a lot about it and agree with him.

Response by PO3 Paul "Jeff" Braden made Jan 17 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-01-17T11:33:53-05:00

Yes, after serving the country a veteran deserves all the govt can afford to give him/her. Being a veteran or soldier is a much different thing than being some Joe on the street civilian. A veteran should be treated special in the eyes of the court and the govt.

Response by SSG William Patton made Jan 17 at 2015 11:44 AM

2015-01-17T11:44:03-05:00

Justice should be meted out equally, but we all know that does not happen. Because of social status, some citizens are more equal than others. Veterans should not be treated differently, unless their military experience has pushed them into mental illness and the justice system has a mechanism to address those issues. I think the court uses the philosophy of mitigating circumstances in dealing with veteran offenses and this is dependent upon the nature of the crime and level of violence if any is involved. Each case should and most often is, determined on its own merits.

Response by SFC Richard Schott made Jan 17 at 2015 11:44 AM

2015-01-17T11:44:04-05:00

Only in cases of mental disorder, all others should be processed thru normal procedures.

Response by Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns made Jan 17 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-01-17T11:50:45-05:00

Hell no because we are the epitome of discipline, honor and integrity. We should possible reduced but never any special treatment. We fought so that all citizens could get equal treatment under the law. It should also be most considered as to the infraction, if it is a major infraction flip the switch and throw away the book but if it minor, fee and admonishment should be good enough. No one and I mean no one is above the law.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jan 17 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-01-17T11:58:46-05:00

Absolutely not. SEVERAL reasons for this:

1) First and foremost, your oath should NOT end once your service is complete. The values that you've lived by in the service should NOT end as you retire or ETS...

2) People are people and those in the service risk their tail to ensure that people remain free and are considered "equal" - To include veterans. And therefore, we should be seen as equal in the eyes of the law.

3) This is probably going to be the most unpopular - Everyone's offended nowadays. Everybody is "tolerant" today - to the extent to where if you oppose a view intellectually, you're intolerant and therefore, ignorant, or worse, "toxic". So many have some sort of chip on their shoulder, some sort of PTSD related bad habit, or behavior. Or at least think this in their mind.... The veteran culture out in the civilian world has become one of victimization and sadness. I have, and I'm not joking or being facetious, have heard of office clerks claiming anxiety or even "nightmares" of the amount of paperwork they had to do... Really?

I can understand if the individual truly has some sort of mental illness due to service - then yes, get them the treatment that they need, and in the meanwhile, fix the system on how we react to mentally ill criminals as a whole. It's broken on the civilian side as well as the military/VA end.

This is just unacceptable behavior. Providing special treatment to veterans when they do something stupid is feeding int that. We need a change in culture and mind set...

Response by SGT Robert R. made Jan 17 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-01-17T12:08:04-05:00

A person's circumstance should be considered in the sentencing phase of a convicted sentence, and I would hope they are for veterans with mental instabilities or disabilities.

That being said, no one should get special favors because of who they are or what they have seen during a criminal investigation or trial. No person is, or should, above the law.

Response by MSgt Arvin Stott made Jan 17 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-01-17T12:09:18-05:00

While I am tempted to say yes to the question, after considering it I have to say no. A crime is a crime. If you commit one then you should pay the price. Why should you get credit for serving after doing a less than honorable act.

Generally, speaking you do the crime, you should be ready to do the time. Not saying there will not be occasions where special consideration should be given, but that is true whether you served or not.

Response by SPC Christopher Trafnik made Jan 17 at 2015 12:14 PM

2015-01-17T12:14:05-05:00

It depends on the crime

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 17 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-01-17T12:16:49-05:00

On a case by case basis, this could possibly work. At first glance, I was tempted to say no based on the title of the thread, but looking at the question in its entirety, I understand more about the intent.

Response by PO2 Frances Smart made Jan 17 at 2015 12:19 PM

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A Viet Nam veteran with PTSD and significant psychosis was put to death the other day, because he blanked and killed a police officer in a particularly heinous way. The video of that death has become a training video for police departments everywhere on how not to approach a car. It was awful. And yet the courts had plenty of documentation as to the mental condition of the veteran. They were not allowed to consider that information during sentencing, however. I just feel it woud not have hurt anyone for that veteran to have been committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life. There is a program within the VA called Justice Outreach, which helps veterans who have been arrested to get help navigating the system. I called them just the other day for a fellow shipmate of mine who sustained brain damage on active duty and is now addicted to meth and dependent on alcohol. He went drinking, became belligerent, and when a police officer and an EMT tried to get him out of the bar, he hit both of them. As much as I feel that anyone who hits an EMT, who is just there to help, deserves to sit on their butt in jail for a few months, my friend needs help. It doesn't solve anything to let him sit there. Better to get him into rehab. Better for the system, better for my friend, better for society.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 17 at 2015 12:20 PM

2015-01-17T12:20:57-05:00

I think this is an emerging program. Hawaii is also taking a lead with respect to this topic. See attached. What is not stated in the web article is that the prosecutors are also veterans with combat experience. It does not mean that veteran's are not responsible for their actions, but does mean that the court recognizes that there may be more going on in the veteran's life that needs to be addressed.

It is a great program and works well. Are veteran's entitled to it... no. Am I glad the program is offered and works... YES!

http://www.courts.state.hi.us/special_projects/veterans_court.html

Veterans Treatment Court

The official website of the Hawaii State Judiciary. Provides access to case records, forms, contact information and Appellate Court opinions

Response by PFC James Pease made Jan 17 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-01-17T12:24:45-05:00

I am a disabled peace time veteran, and also a mentor in Veterans Treatment Court here in Racine WI. I am also a long term recovering alcoholic, addict, and former offender. I say absolutely, veterans should get the specialized options.

It goes beyond a moral judgment of right or wrong. Veterans, be they peace time or combat vetted, are a culture unto themselves. Veterans have lived a culture of violence, be it trained and applied or only trained and never applied. Domestic abuse, drug and alcohol addiction, and all the little criminal nuances that go with those addictions, as well as a military lifestyle with an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, dictates that those men and women think differently than the general civilian populace. It doesn't really matter where the "stopping place" happens, but it betters our society and communities in the long run to have another venue to step in. Add now the high number of combat veterans returning from duty to society, and remember the dismissal of the Vietnam veterans.

Not all Viet-era vets suffered ptsd, addiction or criminality, but many did. And were left dismissed and untreated. How many veteran offenders now are the children and grandchildren of these untreated, often dysfunctional families. We as a nation have an obligation to address criminality and addiction in as many ways as possible to keep our communities safe, healthy and crime free. Being on the scene in Veterans Treatment Court, I applaud this effort and I am blessed to witness first hand the difference it can and does make.

Response by A1C Wayne Martin made Jan 17 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-01-17T12:27:24-05:00

They should receive special treatment before they are sent home, lessening the likelihood they'll commit crimes. If, after they've been trained to cope, they commit crimes anyway, throw the book at them.

Response by SPC Robert Norton made Jan 17 at 2015 12:36 PM

2015-01-17T12:36:25-05:00

No, i don't think they should be treated any different. They joined the service to stand up for what they believe in. they have troubles, we all do, but preferential treatment for serving your country, sorry no.

Response by SSG Richard Relyea made Jan 17 at 2015 12:46 PM

2015-01-17T12:46:30-05:00

No soldier is more important than setting the right standard. Soldiers with mental health issues should be cared for in such a way that any law breaking tendencies should be noticed before any crime is committed. Our troops need care not special treatment. Yes if they have PTSD that should be taken into account but should not be a get out of jail free card.

Response by TSgt Michael Perry U.S.A.F. Ret. made Jan 17 at 2015 12:55 PM

2015-01-17T12:55:35-05:00

Yes! Vet court is no cake walk, I've been thru it. It offers real solutions though and they are huge into the veteran seeking and getting whatever treatments they require, plus the VA docs respect them and place the veteran in a specialized category where medical and psycological followup and monitoring is mandatory; which for many veterans is novel and welcomed. Real solutions can be effected by the veterans courts as witnessed and experienced by myself.

Response by SSG William Strong made Jan 17 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-01-17T13:26:47-05:00

I have read a number of responses. There are MANY Vets that do not ask for help when they need it. People, particularly Vets, are a proud bunch (aren't we). Combat does things to a person that would not have happened as a civilian. I believe the Special Court can be a place to force a Vet to have medical assistance. However, an habitual law offender that has received medical assistance, may need more disciplinary action. I could expand more, however, my two cents will be enough.

Response by SGT Shawn Novorosky made Jan 17 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-01-17T13:36:29-05:00

yes

Response by Capt Andrew Cosgrove made Jan 17 at 2015 1:44 PM

2015-01-17T13:44:13-05:00

As is the case with most things in this world...It Depends.

What is the crime? If it is not a violent crime such as simple robbery or a misdemeanor I would want to know if it a direct result of something like PTSD that has not been well treated that should be.

I will say that for the most part in my mind (There are exceptions to everything) a veteran has demonstrated a higher capacity and should be held to a higher standard. Much like if a cop commits a crime, I would support harsher penalties for them as opposed to street urchins making a life of petty crime. They are held to a higher standard.

Veterans who commit crimes should get stiffer penalties.

Again though, there are so many different variables and as I mentioned before, It Depends.

Response by PFC James Springer made Jan 17 at 2015 1:53 PM

2015-01-17T13:53:00-05:00

That would depend on the crime itself. stealing to feed him self and family then yes.

Response by PV2 Shawn Wolff made Jan 17 at 2015 2:05 PM

2015-01-17T14:05:14-05:00

This post is very broad in relation to content and circumstance. If related to self defense during an altercation that resulted negatively for the perpetrator, and incurred a death or was considered unjust use of deadly force during defended self. I think it comes down to rewarding the vet, and too bad for the criminal.

Response by SGT Henri de la Garrigue made Jan 17 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-01-17T14:08:18-05:00

HELL YES WE SHOULD!!!! There are many returning soldiers that have PTSD. The Army seems not to recognize it that way anymore. I have PTSD with SEVERE HYPER-VIGILANCE. I'm being treated for it - but no thanks to military that I gave 7 years of my life to & the V.A. FLATLY denied me any benefits.
Henri de la Garrigue

Response by SGT Justin Singleton made Jan 17 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-01-17T14:13:47-05:00

The purpose of any court isn't to punish but to correct behavior (if possible). Whatever actually helps to correct the behavior should be administered.

Response by SSG Randy Bradbury made Jan 17 at 2015 2:18 PM

2015-01-17T14:18:25-05:00

Absolutely! Anyone who has put his or her life on the line for others is entitled to special consideration from those "others" (i.e. American society), even when his or her behavior has offended said "others." (IMO, this does not necessarily apply to those who served only in non-combat positions, although some consideration is still merited.)

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 2:43 PM

2015-01-17T14:43:38-05:00

If it's due to something service connected or related like PTSD? Yes. Unconnected crime of any kind? Fuck that guy.

Response by MSgt William Harris made Jan 17 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-01-17T14:44:45-05:00

Yes, I feel that all veterans that served their country and were discharged honorably should be given special consideration based on the crime they committed and whether or not they are a repeat offender. I do feel that in cases of murder or rape is a totally different story!

Response by COL Ted Mc made Jan 17 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-01-17T15:04:14-05:00

I'm of two minds about this one.

I object to "Veterans" getting special treatment, but support treatment based on the convicted person's actual condition.

If that means that "Veterans" with PTSD get the same treatment as non-veterans with PTSD, I'm for it. If that means that "Veterans" without PTSD get the same treatment as non-veterans without PTSD, I'm for it. If that means that people with PTSD get different treatment (designed to assist them in coping with PTSD) than people without PTSD, I'm for it. If what is actually meant is that "Veterans" get free "Get Out Of Jail" cards simply because they are veterans - I'm AGAINST it.

As far as "those with significant criminal histories" are concerned, the real question is whether the PTSD is a causative factor which has to be taken into account (and it may well be).

[ASIDE - Although the medical establishment doesn't agree with me, I believe that the acronym PTSD is an inaccuracy and the condition should be called Post Stress Traumatic Disorder (PSTD). This might seem to be a picky and pedantic distinction, but I believe that it is actually a more accurate description of the condition since the "trauma" can be caused by long duration low level stressors just as easily as it can be caused by short duration high level stressors and limiting any discussion to the "SDHLS" precludes the identification and remediation of conditions brought on by the "LDLLS". This is just the opinion of a ground-pounder so any input from the medical side on whether misidentifying a medical/psychological condition interferes with treatment and/or whether this semantic change might be beneficial, would be appreciated.]

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Jan 17 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-01-17T15:11:03-05:00

Merely based on Veteran status? Absolutely not. What makes the Veteran so special in making poor decisions compared to the rest of the population? I would only advocate special consideration to the extent the Veteran suffers from adjustment disorders such as (but not limited to) PSTD and TBI. I would expect the courts to apply the same standard to vets as tehy do to others with mental challenges.

Before anyone destroys my foxhole consider this, does it matter how the "disability" was obtained?

Response by PO1 Michael Rohman made Jan 17 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-01-17T15:41:17-05:00

What would work better than special treatment in court would be better programs to rehabilitate vets to civilian life before discharge. Vets are trained to defend the laws and land of this country. Combat vets may require some extra attention to adjust to the civilian world. However, when it comes to committing a crime, I have to ask one question. Would a military court give them special treatment? Then why should the civilian courts? A crime is a crime, period!

There are certain special circumstances where they might be better handled differently than a civilian, such as ex-POWs and bad PTSD sufferers. I'm not talking lighter sentences! Just handle them in a way that won't exacerbate their mental state but still be a proper punishment for their crime.

The police should be better trained in how to access a vets mental state when contacting them in the street. In Portland there was a federal investigation into the local police over their shooting some vets in mental crisis'. I'm not expecting them to be psychologists! Our local police here wear black combat type uniforms. That alone is a trigger to many combat vets. More research is needed to evaluate this particular issue!!!!!

Response by PO1 Gary Garvine made Jan 17 at 2015 3:42 PM

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As a retired veteran (20 years Navy), I committed a crime 4 years after retirement mainly out of anger and frustration, and was put on probation, then about 18 months later was charged with another crime. Since I violated my probation, I was sentenced to 6 months in the county prison. I did not receive any special treatment even though the circumstances for the second crime and the way it occurred were an accident.

I did my time and am a better person for it even though it has separated mefrom living with my family.

Response by CW4 Robert Goldsmith made Jan 17 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-01-17T15:47:08-05:00

When I saw this question, some names quickly came to mind. They are Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Muhammad, Jeffrey Dahmer and Lee Harvey Oswald. These are some of the most infamous men in American history; all veterans. The answer to the question is NO! Every service branch has a set of core values that if adhered to will distance anyone, veteran or not, from interaction with the criminal justice system.

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Jan 17 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-01-17T15:55:15-05:00

I'll answer this one with a question. Do you think we veterans should be held to a higher standard or the same standard as civilians?

I expect more (and better behavior) from veterans and thus think we deserve no leniency in court. Serving our country does not entitle any of us to get away with crimes. I wouldn't want it any other way. When a veteran commits a crime, he/she shames the pride and honor we hold in such high esteme. We're better than that.

Response by SCPO Carl Wayne Boss made Jan 17 at 2015 3:57 PM

2015-01-17T15:57:33-05:00

I believe this should cut a couple of different ways.

(1) If an accused has a had a generally clear record (except for possibly minor traffic offenses) before and during their service... I would lean heavily toward clemency or leniency at the Judge's discretion.

(2) If the individual has been a chronic abuser of the law before their time in service and had problems with infractions of the UCMJ during their tour(s) in the service and those and other infractions have continued and follow an individual back into civilian life. I would say discipline needs to be applied.

(3) If the individual has had no previous record before their time in service and performed well with little NJP and or infractions requiring Courts Martial under UCMJ, then depending on the nature of the infraction and again at the Judge's discretion... I'd say clemency or leniency should definitely be a consideration. Second Chances are good teaching tools... sanctions applied could be Community Service and/or Probation.

However, if the offender showed up in front of my bench yet again after the "Second Chance" and I was the Judge... I'm afraid I would be a lot less kind!

PSCS C. W. Boss, U.S. Coast Guard (Retired) sends...

Response by Capt Al Parker made Jan 17 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-01-17T16:07:55-05:00

No, a crime is a crime. If the court considers the Vet then the cout should recognize POOR, SICK, NEED, AGE, EDUCATION of the person committing the crime.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Jan 17 at 2015 4:42 PM

2015-01-17T16:42:04-05:00

TSgt Jackie Jones,

That is a Very good question. Like you said lighter or harder sentences are already done on a case by case basis, and as I am sure any senor staff N.C.O. or officer knows judges are harder on military personnel when near a military base,( the young ones do tend to get a little rowdy out in town lol. The Special Treatment is the Judge's Discretion Civilian, Veteran, or active duty. if anyone commits a crime the Judges do take things into consideration if no priors t on petty crimes or felony's they more then likely give a lighter sentence. We as Veterans or active duty are afforded the same Courtesy. Violent Crimes/ Murders no one gets special treatment even if it's their 1st offence. The Judges are restricted to the guidelines of the law themselves when it comes to sentencing meaning there is a bare minimum of what the judge can impose and a maximum for the crime committed. Plea Bargaining and all sorts of other arrangements can effect the sentencing also. so we do get some special treatment but so do civilians.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-01-17T16:47:16-05:00

The problem with writing off veterans or anyone else for that matter has consequences and some of those we may not like. They are not going to just disappear and jail only exacerbates these problems. If anything they become more street savvy. They become homeless and hopeless.

You'd figure that they would be squared up but we cannot see the past or the future just the now. We can try and provide avenues for people (especially veterans) to move on. I would rather said that we tried, other than they deserve no second chances.

In the end, it is our business but as veterans we have to be truthful and being an isolationist in regard to people is a recipe for disaster.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-01-17T16:59:09-05:00

I believe that in certain circumstances, yes there should be specialized cases for Veterans. Veteran's Court aims to help rehabilitate vets who might not have been ready to transition to civilian life. In MY case personally, I was not ready to transition, mentally or emotionally. My unit ignoring the personal issues I was having during my last year in, despite advice they were given by my doctor and the end result.. was basically an explosion. I got out with an honorable discharge thanks to my doctor, not my unit and my transition out was basically my unit and sergeant doing what they could to get me out of their hair as quickly as they could.

So I got out and got in trouble.. however I had no prior brushes with the law before enlisting OR during. If it hadn't been for the legal and rehabilitation help I received from the VA, I'm not sure where I'd be now. As it is now, I'm in school(doing well), paying for my own apartment, my own car, and insurance. And all of this happened 9 months ago. So.. my legal issues are clearly not a reflection of who I am as a person. If a person is not a repeat offender, I do believe that the VA should offer them specialized help and legal options. Service members have to deal with a LOT of things that civilians do not and honestly I believe that has a huge effect of their mental and emotional state which might effect how they act once out in the civilian world.

I think though, that it should be based on each specific case.

Response by SSG Don Waggoner made Jan 17 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-01-17T17:09:23-05:00

I am a criminal defense attorney and a retired veteran. In th Army, I had many experiences with veterans of Viet Nam who suffered from PTSD, bu, at that time we didn't think of it that way. I remember one sergeant who I went to wake up and he jumped up in a combat stance, like I was VC come to cut his throat. We mostly laughed it off. As a defense attorney, I have met and represented numerous veterans with various ailments caused by the military-everything from alcoholism, drug abuse, combat related PTSD, other mental health issues, and many others. In many cases they are no different than someone who has never served with the same ailment. In other cases, the military is directly responsible for the ailment and the soldier would not act illegally without the impact from the military. In such cases, the military service and its responsibility for the actions of the veteran should be recognised and considered in deciding how to punish or handle the veteran. Some can be saved, some cannot be saved. Some are forever dangers to themselves or others and need to be put in jail or special institutions. Some have committed acts so heinous, the only thing anyone wants is punishment, regardless of the responsibility of the military for the act. Veteran courts are mostly there to help tose with PTSD, and drug or alcohol addictions. They are not there simply to lighten the sentence just because one is a vet. There may be the rare case where I think active service should garner a reduction in sentence simply for that service. But, in general, these veterans have stolen from someone, injured someone, or damged property and there is no excuse and you, or they wouldn't want them to do the same thing to you. But many of these same grounds for leniency or treatment applies to civilians as well. Criminal issues are difficult to manage and determine the appropriate outcome because almost everything is illegal to do nowadays. Merely because they are a vet, probably not, but it is a starting point and something to consider. Good question.

Response by SGT Carole Shelton-Toney made Jan 17 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-01-17T17:09:59-05:00

Yes they should. I do not consider a sensitive Veteran Court as special treatment. My city has Veteran Court the offers mentors and clear path to assisting Veterans in putting their lives back together either through treatment or restitution - once completed, the charges are then dropped. Misdemeanor charges only.

I personally see no sense in arresting a chronically mentally ill homeless Veteran for Vagrancy or for being involved in a fight - after all combat Veterans were taught to do just that and we all know that TAP's - Transition Assistance Programs are fairly useless.

We are sensitive to every other population in this country if we have to be - we (need) to be sensitive to Veterans. And yes, as a Veteran, I am biased.

Response by SSG James N. made Jan 17 at 2015 5:49 PM

2015-01-17T17:49:52-05:00

In every case there should be a Veteran's Court. The primary reason is that an individual with TBI's has many area's of non normal functioning areas than many of you do not know. Check this link and be educated.
http://www.neuroskills.com/resources/rancho-los-amigos-revised.php

Then we have many veteran's with PTSD. This comes with many types of psychological issues that may or may not lead to criminal behavior, or behavior that ends with a crime such as assault and battery upon an individual who may or may not deserve it.

There are also many other issues Veteran's have that demand, yes, demand a different kind of judging that so called normal civilians do not have.

Would you so quickly judge an individual who did something inappropriate, who has lost the ability to judge the behavior as such? Would you even recognize this by looking at them? No. You would not.
My main disability is invisible to the naked eye or to most observers. I am STILL trying to relearn some stuff, even points of sarcasm, that I lost to polytruamatic TBI issues beginning with a closed head injury that left me amnesiac, having long term memory loss, short term memory issues, and speech impediments>
I know what it is to 'not be normal', and I know what it is to be in a position where someone is judging me for something I don't quite get, as in a professor scolding me for some comment that is completely innocent to me, but for some reason, someone else found inappropriate.

Traumatic Brain Injury Resource Guide - Rancho Los Amigos - Revised

Response by Sgt G.P. Murphy made Jan 17 at 2015 5:55 PM

2015-01-17T17:55:44-05:00

Veterans Court has started in Mass. I am in the process of being trained as a Police prosecutor This along with Drug Court is available to those who wish to except the the help. We as peer's and Brother must work with our Brothers and Sisters to get involved with the treatment being offered, all cases are treated case by case, to shorten this please as always remember "Never in front of you, Never Behind you, Always Beside you" We must take care of our own.

Response by SSG John M Jacobson Sr made Jan 17 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-01-17T18:09:07-05:00

The Law is the Law. I am a veteran with PTSD but that does not put me above the Law. And if someone is using their PTSD as an excuse, and I know this would be hard to prove but we should not get any special favors just because we are veterans. After all is that not part of what we were defending? We have all put our time in to protect the constitution and the laws of our country, should we not also abide by those laws as well?

Response by Cpl Tim Nealy made Jan 17 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-01-17T18:16:22-05:00

No...I believe that there should be no differential treatment for veterans...If and when we commit a crime we should be punished as everyone else. The dishonor and shame itself is even greater....

Response by SCPO Robert Bagnell made Jan 17 at 2015 6:23 PM

2015-01-17T18:23:53-05:00

I believe it will prove beneficial to not only the veteran, but also society in general. Veterans have many problems, including PTSD, not normally seen in the general population, some of these problems are exactly why the veteran is now in the criminal justice system. I have been involved in law enforcement both military and civilian for over 35 years and would advocate for programs for veterans similar to what we see with drug courts (for the general population) where not only is justice served, but what is in the best interest of the individual is also considered.

Response by LCpl James Robertson made Jan 17 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-01-17T18:25:28-05:00

Its base on the mental state of mind and his/her physchiatrist as to whether he/she can be tried in a regular court of law.

Response by SCPO Larry Knight Sr. made Jan 17 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-01-17T18:30:33-05:00

Absolutely not, since I had the opportunity to sit in on a federal case involving a 20 yr NG veteran, who abused his position in a official capacity. Having served his country and then employed in a position of greater responsibility with the federal govt (ie; supervisor over the passport division) , He allowed non US citizens to travel with phony passports in and out of this country we all swore an oath too! He willfully and knowingly committed numerous rapes and took monetary favors in exchange. He will be serving the rest of his natural life in a federal prison, for as long as he lives.

He essentially betrayed every veteran both former and currently serving by his actions. So no veterans "DO NOT" deserve preferential treatment in a judicial system regardless of the crime. If you commit the crime do the time, it's as simple as that end of discussion . This E-7 is and was as indicated an "E-7" who lost touch with the real title befitting this individuals counter parts who wear their uniform with pride and leave the service with it intact .

Good on all of you who serve and have served your country to the highest standards, and will never waiver in this lifetime.

Response by Sgt Harlin Seritt made Jan 17 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-01-17T18:33:19-05:00

Absolutely not -- especially with the U.S. having a fully volunteer military. Our nation's justice system is founded on rule of law and the idea that all men/women *should* be treated equally. I don't think my military service should allow me to be punished less while others who would have committed the same crime be punished more. Issues like PTSD should be taken into account based on a person's sanity but people who have never served in the military can also be afflicted with this.

Response by LtCol Richard Edmonds made Jan 17 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-01-17T18:36:12-05:00

Good Topic TSgt Jones. I am retired from the Marine Corps and I am an attorney in Michigan now. The topic that you are addressing here is what is known as Veterans Treatment Courts. This type of court started out east, I think Buffalo, NY and is spreading across the country. I have helped to start Veteran Treatment Courts in several counties in Michigan.

It is important to note that this is NOT special treatment for veterans. The Veterans Treatment Courts are modeled after other "special" courts such as Drug Courts. These "Special" Courts take certain specifics related to the Defendant into consideration and provide for "Special" terms associated with the probation.

In Veterans Treatment Courts, the Prosecutor and the Judge will determine what types of violations will be permitted to plead in this "special" court. Some victims object to Spouse abuse to be offered in this Court, while others think that would be appropriate.

In working to set up Veteran Treatment Courts, we often consider Veterans with PTSD as the target Defendant. Possibly, the veteran is self medicating his/her PTSD with alcohol or drugs or maybe the spouse abuse or fighting was triggered by a PTSD episode. However, whatever violations are selected the Court is then established by legislation or ruling by the State Supreme Court.

The primary component of Veterans Treatment Courts compared to other "Specialty Courts" is the inclusion of Veteran Mentors. In Michigan and in other States that I have studied each Veteran Defendant who is placed on Probation is assigned a Veteran Mentor. In Michigan we try to match Marines with Marines and Sailors with Sailors and so on. Also we try to match Combat Vets with Combat Vets.

Next we also include the VA. At each court hearing there are VA Reps in the back of the court with computer terminals tied into the local VA Hospitals. If a Veteran Defendant needs immediate hospitalization or Treatment the VA Reps handle that on the spot.

The Veteran Defendant is NOT given a softer sentence - but he is insured additional support to help him/her make it through Probation. I have worked with Veterans Mentors who are typically GySgts or MSgts and in a couple cases SgtMajors, these Mentors take their jobs seriously and kick ass to make sure their Veteran gets squared away -- This is Military Tough Love at its best. The Judges I have worked with have 'Graduation' Ceremonies when a Veteran Defendant completes his/her probation successfully. Lots of tears and hugs. Depending on the violation upon completion of the Probation the Veterans record is cleared so that he/she can go get a job.

So Should these Courts be encouraged. YES. I encourage all Veterans who are reading this to check with their local District Court to see if they have a Veterans Treatment Court and how to volunteer to be a Veteran Mentor.

Response by SPC Richard White made Jan 17 at 2015 6:47 PM

2015-01-17T18:47:59-05:00

I think that courts should give Veterans the benefit of the doubt.Speaking from personal experience I was considered a threat to the community due to my training so my bail was revoked.Definitely not fair.

Response by SFC Nyla Newville made Jan 17 at 2015 6:56 PM

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I think it depends on the circumstance, and I think there are too many Veterans already in prison instead receiving the help they needed and some times you don't realize you need help.

Response by CPO David Sullivan made Jan 17 at 2015 7:44 PM

2015-01-17T19:44:36-05:00

For Drugs and Alcohol yes
Strong Arm robbery and Murder... No

Response by Cpl Patrik Bernard made Jan 17 at 2015 7:55 PM

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Of course everything has to be determined on a case by case basis so the crime and the severity has to figure in the sentencing.

One point of consideration is that several generations have grown up without military service and the concept seems very distant, much like the conflicts in faraway lands, but the demands made on our service members are far too real. Even the majority of our leadership have been unwilling to accept responsibility to service even as they are being handed the reins of authority.

Veterans are the ones who have shouldered the responsibility and in many cases carry the "scars" associated with the awesome responsibility.

This is not to imply that veterans are maladjusted or pose greater risks to civil society rather we should be cognizant that in many instances "unresolved issues" as a result of service could sometimes lead to extemporaneous circumstance.

Having veterans specifically empaneled to sit in on juries associated with veteran crimes may be useful in determining the level of consideration that may be warranted as a consequence of their service.

Response by SGT Michael Bassett made Jan 17 at 2015 8:02 PM

2015-01-17T20:02:34-05:00

Depends on the crime.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made Jan 17 at 2015 8:09 PM

2015-01-17T20:09:14-05:00

Can't do the time - Don't do the crime.

Response by PO2 Chris Wilcken made Jan 17 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-01-17T20:23:26-05:00

"Special treatment" is a very vague term. If two people with the exact same background, health and mental consciousness - with the exception of one of them being a veteran - committed the exact same crime, I see no reason for "special treatment". This implies that the veteran defendant is in some way above the law, which in no circumstances is acceptable. With that being said though, in my opinion a veteran with diagnosed mental health issues who commits a crime that was in some way caused by said issues, SHOULD be disciplined with this illness kept in mind. This is no different than if a mentally unstable civilian committed a crime, and the judge was more lenient on their punishment verses the one of a healthy minded, conscious criminal. So in a way, there would be no special treatment due to veteran status, but more so due to the fact of a confirmed mental illness.

I know that in my city, they hold Valor Court for veterans charged with a crime. "Summit County Valor Court was established due to the recognition that many of our veterans return to civilian life with serious trauma both physical and mental, which may lead to their involvement with the criminal justice system. By providing this court, veterans are given access to programs, treatment and interaction with mentors in a collaborative initiative to enhance chances of success." I do not see this as "special" treatment, but rather a way of acknowledging the special needs of certain veterans to get them the help they need.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 9:16 PM

2015-01-17T21:16:46-05:00

Yes: Hold them to a higher standard of accountability. As an individual who has defended the freedoms of our nation, they have the duty to continue to uphold those standards in civilian life as well. I am not saying that there should not be special consideration if a crime is linked to PTSD, but if the former soldier blatantly disregards the law, then they ought to have a more stringent sentence.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Frusha made Jan 17 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-01-17T21:21:27-05:00

I would say that depends. It depends on the nature of the crime and the individual. IF he/she has PTSD, there may be need for consideration, if they have a TBI, there definitely needs to be consideration.

One thing we DON'T want is to be seen as above the law. Even murder can be seen through understanding, where PTSD and TBI are concerned, but, there is no more justification for special treatment than with any other American that does not have PTSD, or a TBI.

Response by TSgt Thomas Monaghan made Jan 17 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-01-17T21:36:07-05:00

I am a ret Tsgt and have been a corrections officer for 14 years. I have seen many people come in and out through my jail, many are veterans. These inmates have done amazing things for this country in Iraq/Afgahnastan, but di not recieve the help form the service upon there dishcharge from the service. I feel as though Veterans court is a good start bur alot more needs to be done. Many of these individuals are in for PTSD related crimes, they try to help through the DOD/VA can't so they keep ending up in jail.

Response by PO1 Jesse Armstrong made Jan 17 at 2015 9:43 PM

2015-01-17T21:43:50-05:00

Hi Troops,
I am with agreement with 1SG(P) on this one too... its a situational case by case basis. One needs to review there past military records and see if first there are any medical issues so its a case by case issue..

Response by MSgt Stephen Dodimead made Jan 17 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-01-17T22:40:06-05:00

It would depend on the crime and the vets background. PTS and TBI should be considered.

Response by LCpl Gary Mello made Jan 17 at 2015 10:41 PM

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I think as a man you should stand up and be accountable. Ask for help prior. PTSD or not. But then again I'm not a combat Veteran so YES a program to get another Veteran the help he/she needs instead of a prison cell is a better idea. By using PTSD as an excuse is the same as why some shitbird couldn't finish bootcamp then puts on the uniform and holds a sign begging for money, then swears they are a Veteran. The truth is the military itself needs a better disembarkation program, just kicking the soldier to the curb with a boot in the ass out the door doesn't help. I know, I was that guy. Swore I did everything right the whole time. One slip up, boom your out. Get fucked. No counseling, no help, no nothing. Honorable discharge, but I felt abandoned, and alone. The whole catching AIDS in 1992 didn't help any. Damaged goods, not combat effective, would put others at risk. Those were the words used at my discharge board. I Didn't want out, I was force out. Different war in and of itself, but I'm a Marine, hence I'm still kicking... It was probably better I walked away and tried to piece together my life which has been a rollercoaster. To be exactly that, a total mess on the inside, but solid till the end. I'll stand beside the broken, the tired, the hungry, the forgotten any day of the week. You won't see me standing near politicians, lawyers, cops, or Judges. Not my scene at all. I'm a shadow of an idea looking for a cure myself.

Response by SFC Scott Parkhurst made Jan 17 at 2015 11:03 PM

2015-01-17T23:03:32-05:00

Having been also a Police Officer (went on leave just for Desert Storm), I totally understand the "Vet." Having dealt with on the streets before I myself went in. I found myself somehow (and wanting to) to give them that extra break. No, I didn't let a murderer walk or anything like that, but there's something about the "why's" they did what they did and I got that....You have to look deep and "feel" with your heart and even consider PTS(D). There was a lot of aspects of why I did what I did on the streets with everyone....But when it came to Vet.'s I just looked deeper that's all. And now that I am one of 20 years it's funny how I so truly really get it now. And I would hope to God I would at least be treated fairly if I messed up.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 12:02 AM

2015-01-18T00:02:32-05:00

I agree with 1SG (P) Jerry Healy.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 18 at 2015 12:21 AM

2015-01-18T00:21:18-05:00

I would say, it depends. Every situation is situation dependent. First time offenders for petty crimes, I would say yes.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Jan 18 at 2015 1:55 AM

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When I was a law student in New York I volunteered at the Nassau County Veterans Treatment Court. I do not view it as special treatment based on veterans status. A specialist court such as the veterans court is ideal for veterans because veterans often have a similar underlying health issue and have a similar culture to build treatment upon. Society overall benefits because the recidivism rate is amazing low.

First are the underlying issues Traumatic Brain Injury(TBI) and Post traumatic stress syndrome(PTSD). Both can effect judgement and can lead to substance abuse. There was a solider that suffered TBI and before we got him into the Veterans Court the judge in the other criminal court was hostile, and the reason was the judge assumed his slurred speech was the result of drug abuse instead of TBI.

Next is the culture of the military that vets carry with them, even WWII era veterans still have it, and it provides an excellent base to begin treatment. When you have a certain set of commonalities it allows courts and treatment workers to tailor programs to better suit the patient.

Lastly, the recidivism rates are amazing low and in some courts zero. My time at Nassau County Veterans Court we had both ups and downs. The ups included people finishing the program and getting their lives in order. The downs included people failing their drug test the day before finishing the program.

In summary veterans courts benefit society, they better serve the treatment and rehabilitation aspect of judicial system and they are an overall most efficient use of judicial resources.

Response by 1stSgt Darrell Lahman made Jan 18 at 2015 2:19 AM

2015-01-18T02:19:40-05:00

I don't believe so. Why should a vet be held to any other standards then a nonvet. You were held to a higher standard when you were active and you swore an oath to protect the very document that many of our laws are based on. Do you think you are above the law just because you served? All do respect but the answer is no.

Response by SFC Charles Mallory made Jan 18 at 2015 4:43 AM

2015-01-18T04:43:05-05:00

absolutely not

Response by SrA Rex Brown made Jan 18 at 2015 5:00 AM

2015-01-18T05:00:04-05:00

"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." I know people are going to say " But those with PTSD should be exceptions" I know many with PTSD most have not went out and committed crimes and are doing a great job with mixing back into society. One young man I know got into using drugs and was caught, tried and convicted for a year in jail. He is seeking treatment while still in jail and will be going to a rehab facility after. He didn't want to use his PTSD as a "special circumstance." He wanted to be punished just as everyone else and to get help. Some people are using PTSD and other things as a crutch to get away with what they know to be wrong morally and legally and it really gives the ones that are trying their damnedest to fit in as normal, functioning people a bad light. I have seen the eye rolls some of them get because they have a disability or a mental disorder when there is nothing holding them back. People no matter what their circumstance need to take responsibility for their actions and quit trying to use a "flaw" as a way to get away with breaking the laws. They knew the law before they went into the military so they should know it when they get out or are still serving. Maybe I am just a hard ass but that's the way I see it.

Response by CPT Paulgh Despeignes made Jan 18 at 2015 5:11 AM

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leniency and mitigation of corrective measures (coupled with effective rehabilitative activities that will help the individual abstain from further criminal activities) may considered, depending on the severity of the crime.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Jan 18 at 2015 5:32 AM

2015-01-18T05:32:08-05:00

No more than any other minority should get special treatment for criminal acts. When we start down of path if making excuses for criminal behavior outside of the individual that made the choice to conduct themselves in that fashion, we strip away the right to hold them accountable. Every person regardless of circumstances has the ability to choise to do the right thing. When they choose the dark path of the criminal world only the bright light of justice and direct consequences can help them.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Jan 18 at 2015 8:06 AM

2015-01-18T08:06:09-05:00

When it comes to a person that has mental health issues, or PSTD, would have to say yes to a degree. However, my answer is no to others because in the Military, you are taught "Duty, Honor, Respect, Integrity" and you especially know what is right and what is wrong. No one was putting that gun to your head when you committed that crime. Whether it was speeding or robbing a bank.

Response by SSgt Bradley Woelfel made Jan 18 at 2015 9:02 AM

2015-01-18T09:02:04-05:00

As a Marine and a Police Officer, I think it depends on the situation and the crime. Most crimes do not deserve special treatment for Veterans like me. Veterans, above civilians, should know better and have a responsibility to act in a way that makes everyone else look up to us.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Jan 18 at 2015 9:33 AM

2015-01-18T09:33:07-05:00

I have a hard time viewing this as "special treatment" when, for the most part, there are mitigating factors that coincide with the issue. If there are LOD issues that preclude the behavior, then this is just another way of dealing with the problem and trying to find the answers. I think this is just different and not special.

Response by SCPO Lee Pradia made Jan 18 at 2015 9:34 AM

2015-01-18T09:34:40-05:00

PTSD should be identified and treated, however, once a crime is committed it's a whole different ball game. All veterans should be held accountable for their actions, rape, murder, theft, assault, drugs and all others. We were held to a higher standard while on active duty, why should it be different afterwards. Most had been diagnosed and remained on active duty without incident. Unless there's some serious mitigating circumstances ie; self defense, no special treatment.

Response by Sgt Brad Kilgore made Jan 18 at 2015 9:45 AM

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As a veteran that personally went through a veterans court, I feel that I was very fortunate to have such an experience. I got a DUI on New Years 2012, Austin TX luckily has a vet court program that I was accepted into. Due to my BAC, I had to participate in the program for 18 months. During that time, I was required to attend multiple drug and alcohol classes as well as counseling. Much like Marine bootcamp there are 3 phases within the court and within the drug and alcohol classes. I am glad that the DUI happened since it made me realize that I was an alcoholic (like many other service members) and the court made sure that I received the correct treatment to get me on a better path. Upon SUCCESSFUL completion of the vet court program the charges are dropped and the case is expunged. There are monthly meetings with a case worker and they also require random urinalyses as well. Much like the service, you get what you get out of it. I am very thankful for veterans court and it helped me get the help that I thought I didn't need.

Response by SGT Jason Mouret made Jan 18 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-01-18T10:05:47-05:00

I think it depends on the level of crime. But I definitely think we should have special treatment for bankruptcy and forclosers.

Response by SFC Jeff Gurchinoff made Jan 18 at 2015 10:22 AM

2015-01-18T10:22:01-05:00

This article in not particularly informative as to the scope of inclusiveness into the Veterans Court program. This program is NOT intended for repeat violent offenders, nor is it "all inclusive." The program is a very selective system where the court and VA mental health professionals team up to provide more focused rehabilitation to veterans that (if left to serve out time in local jail systems like their civilian counterparts) would NOT receive proper rehabilitation or have the underlying causes of their problems addressed. It is administered by the Judge, all orders are handed down through the court and ANY violation of the imposed rules automatically terminates the veterans court program like any other probation violation and the offenders would then go directly to jail and not collect their $200. I would think if the article laid out the facts and administering guidelines of these programs (look them up they are all over the internet, by state) you would have less people thinking Veterans are getting some sort of free pass in the legal system just because they once or currently wear a uniform. That is NOT the case

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-01-18T11:18:53-05:00

This got me thinking, and contradicting myself too. If a soldier committed a crime they ought to be held to a higher standard, therefore a slightly more strict sentence (instead of 5-8 months in jail, civilians get 5 and we get 7-8). But if they acted put from PTSD, proven by diagnosis or not, ought to be granted help services and maybe inpatient. Otherwise refusal is jail or fine, whatever it may be. I'm not too savvy on policies nor had experienced much. A buddy vet of mine was killed by another vet. Tried to blame PTSD or insanity, ruled as just being an idiot (really, he is stupid as crap). So he should have been given a worse sentence. We represent a lot through our actions, committing a crime ought not to be taken lightly.

Response by TSgt Jackie Jones made Jan 18 at 2015 11:20 AM

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No one here is getting a free pass based on their Veterans status. Veterans Court, like a Drug Court, is intended to help individuals that have been in trouble with the law that need and want it. Each Veterans Court is different. Some exclude certain crimes, some exclude certain discharge statuses. But overall, it is a bit of special treatment- if they are successful, most offenses are wiped from the record like they never happened. Joe Civilian may not have that option with a matching offense. I would call that a bit of special treatment- not that I am opposed to it since it includes ALOT of hard work from the defendant/veteran.

Response by CW3 Eddy Vleugels made Jan 18 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-01-18T11:22:36-05:00

I would say that it should be handled on a case by case basis; I do not believe that there should be a double standard just because an individual served. Case in point: Should Timothy McVey have received leniency in his sentencing for the OK City bombing just because he served? Should Pvt Manning receive special dispensation for having leaked national security information, just because he served. I hope everyone agrees that the answer should definitely be NO!

Response by SSgt Manuel Tavares made Jan 18 at 2015 11:27 AM

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Sgt Charles Letness I strongly agree with your assessment on hireing veterans, Company's and local government talk the talk for publicity but unfortunately , they do not walk the walk. When I separated from active duty , I applied for a job with the county prison system as a guard, took the test and scored 6 out of 400+ applicants was interviewed. During interview work schedule was dicussed and seemed to be a go until I mentioned that I was still on active reserve and then everything changed and I was never called. That was 24 yrs ago and it seems that unfortunately nothing has changed.

Response by CPT Edmund Quirk made Jan 18 at 2015 11:39 AM

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Depends on the severity crime and the willingness of the subject to attend either therapy or rehabilitation to prevent future infractions.

Response by LTC Mike Fayette made Jan 18 at 2015 1:35 PM

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While I'm happy this conversation was started and has generated a lot of great thought, I think the question is wrong. It's not that veterans deserve "special" treatment in courts. It's that veteran's deserve "different" treatment. Look, there are already DWI courts, Drug courts, Mental Health courts, etc. throughout the US. As a result, the US taxpayer and communities in general find themselves lessening their fiscal burden, releasing space in jails for actual violent criminals, and healing/helping those persons described above in ways that keep them from returning to our criminal justice system. The same holds true for communities, districts, etc, who have established veterans treatment courts. As a VTC mentor, I have seen the power of partnerships that come together to heal and help a veteran as opposed to warehousing him or her in a jail. The jail therapy rarely works and it's so much more expensive to do. No, I don't believe veterans (and I am one) deserve anything special. But we should be valued by our communities as "different" - in a positive way.

Response by SCPO Rick Decker made Jan 18 at 2015 1:50 PM

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As a retried veteran and criminal defense attorney, I can tell you that Veteran Courts do make a difference in allowing for individual treatment of veteran defendants. Even in courts that do not offer veteran deferral programs, I often raise the issue of the effects of war, combat, and the everyday stress of military service during allocution at sentencing. Many judges seek to understand the background of a person and exercise discretion during sentencing after they understand the person's history. I recently had a Viet Nam veteran with a 40-year history of law enforcement contact from '67 to '07, I showed that in '07 he finally made contact with the VA and started getting treatment for his PTSD. 7 years later, the doctors changed his drug protocol and it resulted in a charge - this judge routinely gives the maximum sentence with that kind of criminal history - this case results in 14 days of jail time rather than a year, because I was able to bring the history into play. I believe that in many cases, a referral to Veteran's Court is appropriate and I believe that veterans have earned at least some consideration.

Response by SSG Willie Means made Jan 18 at 2015 3:07 PM

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The prisons at one time were filled with Vietnam Vets. They have now mostly passed away. When those Vietnam Vets returned, instead of a welcome home and all kinds of programs to help them re-enter society, it was like that group as a whole was set to face a 'SPEED TRAP'. You just did three years in the Army and You did two tours in Vietnam. Yet, You go to a package good store and You still can't buy alcohol. You explode before You can stop Yourself. You're in front of the judge and You get the speech, "You people got to be taught that You can't come back here tearing stuff up just because the rules are different than when You were in the Military." You see the picture I'm painting? The entire system was set up so Veterans did not receive the help they needed immediately because the people in charge knew many of them were going to wound up in jail, prison, or worst, dead. There is a 'ton' of help for Veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan and that's really great. However, that entire generation of Veterans before those two wars should be receiving just as much assistant as though they're coming out of the same wars with every other Veteran. No Veteran should be standing in front of a Civilian Judge for anything. Make the Military make room and oversee Veterans cases who break the law and then go through the WHOLE package before sticking that Veteran in some prison to rot away and live out the remainder of their life. We're taught to kill. As a Marine Buddy of mine once told me, "Every Marines' first job is an Infantryman and then what ever their other job is they were trained for.

Response by SGT Kevin Gardner made Jan 18 at 2015 3:49 PM

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I came home from a deployment in 2009 shortly afterward my wife had a mental breakdown she went off the deep end and I hd to get help for her, her doctor gave me paperwork stating that if she attempted to hurt herself I was to restrain her, see she would hurt herself pretty bad and I mean bad. Anyhow in 2012 after being released from the Army we moved to Stevens county, my wife had another break down and I had to stop her from hurting herself, in the process my neighbors called the police, well they showed up a couple of hours after I got my wife calmed down and thinkin straight I told them what happened and my wife also explained to them what had happened, I went on to explain to them about how I had doctors orders to stop her from hurting herself, when I attempted to show them the paperwork I was arrested and charged with a domestic dispute, the public defender told me he did not care and that I would take whatever deal he made for me. So I fired him and hired an actual lawer.

Well after my new lawyer brought all of this to the prosecution they dismissed the charges for fear of a lawsuit if it went to trial.

Ever since then I have had nothing but trouble from the Stevens county deputy's, harassment even being threatend by deputy's after I stoped a couple of tweakers from robbing us. A dispute with one of my lovely neighbors accusing my dogs of killing their chickens resulted in a gun being pulled on me on my property, after I had called the police deputy Hoover threatend me with arrest. i won't de bullied on my property especially by an officer of the law and I explained this to deputy Hoover.

Like a lot of combat veterans I have PTSD and things like this seem to me to just be a way to send us over the edge.

But if there was a veterans court when the first incident happend I would have been able to stop any of this befor it drained my savings account,

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 4:05 PM

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If you take into consideration that the majority of states and municipalities have been utilizing drug courts for drug users for the past 10+ years, then it seems fair that they should give Veterans a second-look and assist if possible with a specialized option. I was asked to be a mentor for a county Veterans court a few years ago. It took me awhile to understand the concept and how it really worked. Here a few points from my mentor program.
- Each Veteran has to request from their initial court to be entered into Veteran's court. Veteran's court has to accept them based on their charges and possible risk evaluation.
- The entrance into Veteran's court is usually decided as a plea agreement between their private lawyer and the prosecutor's office.
- The Veteran's court consists of five individuals: judge, prosecutor, probation officer, case manager, and public defender. These five work together as a team to decide on the course of action for each individual in the program. All five are present at each court hearing and they allow any private lawyers to attend if they wish.
- The case manager (and possibly the probation officer, depending on if they are ordered to have one) works one-on-one with the Veteran to set up their appointments with the VA or doctors, private lawyers, any sort of treatment program (AA, NA, anger management, etc).
- Our Veteran's court has a representative from the VA that attends all court hearings and is available to meet with the Veteran to answer questions about the VA and assist with getting appointments with the VA.
- Each Veteran is assigned a mentor and that mentor has to attend training to based on the court's requirements. Currently, all of our mentors are Veterans themselves.
- There are three progressive levels (gates) the Veteran must achieve in order to be released from the Veteran's court. Level 1 is designed as a six month focus on the Veteran stabilizing their life. For example, during Level 1, the Veteran meets with the case manager and once a week and attends court every other week to discuss their progress as to if they have a job, have enrolled in school, meetings and appointments they attend and so on. Level 2 is designed to give the Veteran a little freedom. During Level 2 they meet the case manager once every two weeks and attend court once a month. Also, during Level 2 (designed to last another six months) they continue to share their progress and what they are doing for themselves to ensure they won't re-offend. Level 3 is designed to let the Veteran work towards completion. During Level 3 they may speak with their case manager once every two weeks or so (usually allowed to be over-the-phone) and are asked to attend court if possible as they are afforded the opportunity to work through Level 3 more or less on their own. Level 3 is designed as another six month gate. So after approximately 18 months and if the Veteran has successfully completed all requirements and not re-offended they may graduate from Veteran's court. This allows the Veteran's court team to enter a judgement on their behalf for their original court and then the original judge can take that into consideration during their sentencing. I have seen some Veteran's receive a dismissal and others have their charges reduced.

From my perspective, the Veteran's court in which I am associated with is designed pretty well. It has an incredible team of individuals and can help the Veteran immensely put their trouble behind them, while also teaching them valuable stabilization techniques and offers them the ability to balance their lives, in hopes the Veteran will not re-offend.

I think its important that Veterans get a 'second chance', as we are a different breed, and have given up so much of our personal lives to further the democratic policies of our government for the whole of our nation. Veterans are taught how to be resilient and adapt to different environments, that doesn't mean some of us won't struggle with transitions though. I see my Veteran's court as a way to allow Veterans the ability to continue their service through their local community.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 4:16 PM

2015-01-18T16:16:22-05:00

TSgt Jackie Jones , great question. There are a ton of variables to this but I think that it is safe to say that generally speaking military service should be considered when deciding punishment for veterans. I know that as a police officer I have let many soldiers out of a ticket just for being in the military. The only counter to this is should veterans be held to a higher standard?

Response by PO2 Bruce Lacillade made Jan 18 at 2015 4:25 PM

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Why do some veterans have significant criminal records? The justice need to address the reasons for this so that the roots causes can be treated.

Response by SSG James Petrik made Jan 18 at 2015 4:37 PM

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Plausible,...Will the end justify the means,
In some cases yes if it is legit ably related to either a disorder or condition, i.e. PTSD, or in like. but if we put blanket role or law that covers all veterans and Active duty Service members then this can be an open door for Service Members to wreak havoc on the civilian public. We serve the civilians and need their confidence that we are their protector in the time of need.
I have to disagree with the 1SG Statement of the “3 strikes” especially when it comes to both drugs and alcohol. ONE time and the Max is thrown at the offender, but the higher the rank the ease of the punishment is lesser. I know mitigating circumstances for example a Female or Male is raped and during the course of this heinous act, the alleged rapist is maimed and killed, is it justifiable to execute the victims? Or imprison them? Everyone will say no but it the same happens before the act or commission of the crime the law is on the side of the rapist and not so favorable for the victims.
I think we as Veterans both Active and or Separated have the discipline and training to be better than to be a thug preying on the public. Yes there are a*holes that need their A* kicked but we are not the A* kicking police force just because we are veterans. I believe that if Conges vote to activate us to go to War then Yes We Are the A* Kicking Police force, But this is set by another complete real of rule and Laws.
James Petrik-SSG, USA (ret)

Response by SGT Michael Moore made Jan 18 at 2015 4:38 PM

2015-01-18T16:38:13-05:00

I'd say yes, If the situation was to such that the veteran showed PTSD was in part the issue. After all the veteran paid the price and may still be dealing with it.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jan 18 at 2015 4:49 PM

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WTH? Really?! This is a matter of personal accountability. We all (well, most of us) took oaths to "support & defend" the Constitution. I would submit that we would, similarly, agree to support & defend all Constitutionally valid laws. At what point to we quit blaming bad decisions on such things as child abuse, PTSD, and the like?! If I got into a drunken binge & subsequently committed a crime, to who does the responsibility fall? Me. If there are mitigating circumstances, I hire a lawyer to present my case... and let the proverbial chips fall will they may.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 6:27 PM

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Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Response by CW5 Jose Rodriguez Fabiani made Jan 18 at 2015 7:56 PM

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PTSD should be considered by a trial court in sentencing a military veteran, and to assign a given factor is a matter for the discretion of the individual decision maker.

Response by PO3 Dr. Todd Marquez, PT, DPT, MA made Jan 18 at 2015 8:40 PM

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This sounds great for victim-less crimes, but of course there is no such thing. PTSD is a very real thing, but I think the diagnosing of PTSD gets tossed around too much. While some people suffer greatly from battles afar, keep in mind that PTSD is diagnosed for people who 'suffer' from much less. We need to better understand and define PTSD before we start using it as a form of defense or segregating veterans within the judicial system.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 9:14 PM

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Quick BLUF: No.

Upon further review, there needs to be more research done on whether or not this actually aides those that the crime was perpetrated against, the jurisdiction, then the former service member that committed the crime. In that order.

We have become a society that wants to hand things to people, because they say "I need" when it is actually "I want". I believe that people need to be held accountable for their actions, if that means helping them out instead of levying the harsher penalty, then so be it.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Jan 18 at 2015 9:31 PM

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TSgt Jackie Jones TSGT Jones... I will start of and say NO. We are not above the law and should receive no special "exemption" because of service... with an quasi exception and that I'll explain at the bottom.

Now, before the crucifixion begins... my position is one of the story of the Wolf, Sheep, and Sheepdog. I am a sheepdog... as many of us are that serve. I protect... still... the sheep from the wolf. Now, unfortunately, the sheep are wary of me because I look like a wolf. They know the wolf is bad and they are scared of the wolf... and we, because we look like a wolf, are not completely trust. Why? We are akin to wolves!

So when a sheepdog breaks the faith with the shepherd... and hurts the sheep... the penalty must be hard and swift. That is way I answer no special treatment for those you mention above. I cause challenges for all the other sheep dogs that are trying to protect the flock.

I'll now drop the other foot.

There are some of our brothers and sisters out there that need help. Unfortunately it is not known/seen until to late, or almost to late. They are now in trouble... or in and out of trouble... and the root cause is service connected. Here is where I relent and say, yes they do deserve a specialized option. As we have put them in this dilemma, or helped, we have to try an get them the help they require. That doesn't mean a "get out of jail free card" it means help... and they still answer to the music.

my 2 cents

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Jan 18 at 2015 10:37 PM

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I believe that it should be considered. PTSD, Depression, Self treatment, these can all lead to actions that can be criminal.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made Jan 18 at 2015 11:27 PM

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Only in the case that Jody got your girl and gone.

Response by SPC Larry Buck made Jan 18 at 2015 11:37 PM

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Ma'am remember that you said "Histories" if they keep up the stupid acts they need to be recycled, but once? Grab them punch and kick slap something educational not 39 years for shooting someone in a blackened house and half asleep or drugs, how much how often? Evidence!? Too much variety in choice, one concrete law, no judges discretion if they can choose their buddy will get a slap but the jerk will be cut off and the best defence he'll have is death penalty, yes any crime, in or out of service needs special courts, the military service changes you believe me..

Response by SPC Rebecca Vazquez-Lozano made Jan 18 at 2015 11:40 PM

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I just have one more thing to add there are so many veterans who dont even know about the veterans court who wouldve benefitted and deffinately deserved legal help. My husband wouldnt be still sitting in prison today if for one his chain of command wouldve paid enough attention to see he needed help and two he wouldve had a veterans court behind him

Response by SSG John Devane made Jan 19 at 2015 12:06 AM

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SSG John Devane If you do the crime don't hide behind the military and embarrass
the rest of us

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 2:57 AM

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Honestly, no I don't believe that veterans should receive special treatment. If the fourteenth amendment of the constitution means anything it means "equal protection under law". That should mean both in the for and against opinions of jurors and judges. Equal protection means just that, equal protection. No matter who you are you should get the same rewards or punishment for the same action.

Response by PVT Dominique Stewart made Jan 19 at 2015 6:24 AM

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I'm biased. But yes, veterans deserve special treatment in court.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 7:38 AM

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I think it depends on the case. If you have someone that has a legitimate claim for an injury or PTSD then I think they deserve to have options. However, not all veterans have problems and I would hate for people to start thinking they can claim their "PTSD" made them do it so they get punished less. Since being in the Army I have seen several Soldiers claim to be suicidal and/or have PTSD because they either want attention or they want to get out of something. And I have also seen many people with legitimate claims of PTSD or other injuries. Those are the ones that should get helped.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Jan 19 at 2015 7:48 AM

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I served with some people who were great human beings, I served with some who were some of the biggest POS I ever met in my life. I don't think a veteran should get special treatment if they commit a crime. There are a lot of criminals serving in the military like all other aspects of life. If they get caught and convicted, they need to do the time for the crime they committed.

Response by PO2 Jon Van Dop made Jan 19 at 2015 9:40 AM

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Yes, but...

There are qualifications that should be in place. A veteran like myself who essentially drove a desk for a few years and faced the risk of paper cuts shouldn't be given any special allowances. A veteran that saw war and is suffering from PTSD or TBI and their crime is demonstrably connected to either/both of those conditions should be given a different program from the standard "perp."

Many vets with PTSD try to self medicate with alcohol or drugs. These vets need help. They need to company of others who have gone through the same things they have gone through. While active duty, they have their unit. Then they're out and essentially on their own. They need face to face connections with people who can walk with them through recovery and then provide accountability. A court in coordination with a local dept. of mental health and/or a VA can be a huge boon in this regard.

Response by SPC Erik Atkinson made Jan 19 at 2015 9:44 AM

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I believe that veterans nowadays are a different breed or class of civilians. Most of us have had different experiences while serving and come from different backgrounds, however, our values which were instilled early remain the same for dictating how we act. I applaud the justice system for having a separate court system for handling veterans cases. We are a unique breed that deserves different levels of punishment if we commit crimes. Obviously, no two veterans are the same in how we handle certain situations. Some of us with PTSD, and/or TBIs, may not have the momentary wherewithal to understand what they are doing is wrong. In those instances, it is a comforting thought to know that there is a court system that will understand the gravity of what we may be going through and refer the veteran to the right form of help. Please understand that I agree that all bad behavior MUST be met with some form of punishment. No crime should go unpunished and the military has either taught us or re-strengthened our knowledge of the values which we were hopefully taught growing up.

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Jan 19 at 2015 11:15 AM

2015-01-19T11:15:03-05:00

NO, emphatically NO!!!!!! That is like saying a police officer or firemen deserve special treatment for crimes of murder or arson. Come on be serious, everyone needs to be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 11:22 AM

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Special Treatment? No

Veteran is for anyone who has served regardless of if you served in a combat zone or not. However, it there is be consideration for someones Military and combat service when a judge should when rendering a verdict.

Response by SSG Izzy Abbass made Jan 19 at 2015 11:55 AM

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The problem that VTCs are hoping to manage are those men and women who never had any run-ins with the law, go on one or more deployments and then find themselves getting in trouble with law enforcement. Not only is are there certain requirements that have to be met for a Vet to be including in the VTC docket, there is a strict program they must adhere to in order for them to successfully complete.

As we have seen with the VTC in Colorado's 4th Judicial District (El Paso county which is the home of Ft Carson and three USAF installations) with the following impacts:
-Program graduates have a 0% recidivism rate. Program participants but who've not graduated have a 14% recidivism rate. This compares to a national average of 68-75%.
- Cost saving toe the community per participant is $33,390 per year

Since launch in the 2nd, VTCS have expanded to 4 other districts in CO.

Response by PO1 Richard Vogeler made Jan 19 at 2015 12:50 PM

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Yes their veteran status should be taken into consideration, as long as there is something in the veteran's background that should be considered and in line with the case. If there was a veteran that was trying to get out of something, because he screwed up but had nothing in his past related to his service, then no, it shouldn't be taken into consideration. But if the judge is dealing with someone that may or may not have been diagnosed with PTSD or some other kind of mental/physical disability that should be diagnosed and treated, then yes it should be taken into consideration. To be taken into consideration the veteran must have been diagnosed/treated through a VA or other medical institution, or the trial may have to be postponed where the veteran could be evaluated, because a lot of returning and current veterans have not went to the VA for one reason or another. Then the courts can carry on.

Response by SSgt Stevan Auldridge made Jan 19 at 2015 1:28 PM

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It depends on the crime. But even issues involving PTSD should not exonerate the veteran for whatever crime they committed. Does a mother of a dead child care if the drunk driver is a veteran? No all she cares about is the dead child. If we create a separate but equal class then people will begin to resent the veteran. I am a veteran and a LEO. People use all sorts of excuses to accommodate the bad things they do. I would hope Veterans do not do this. And yes I have had to deal with veterans who come in to my care decrying "I AM A VETERAN!!! HOW DARE YOU DO THIS". I inform them that I too am a veteran and that if he truly is a Vet he should be ashamed of himself and the dishonor he brings to the uniform.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 1:52 PM

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No, they should not receive special treatment. They should be treated like all citizens and held accountable for their actions and crimes. Or do we become a nation that accepts behavior; turn a blind eye, make excuses for. If that is the case no one should be in jail and the justice system should be disbanded.

Response by PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) made Jan 19 at 2015 2:07 PM

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This question that you have posted is very difficult to answer without sounding bias either way. Since being out, I have ran into several veterans that have had PTSD episodes happen and have lead to them getting arrested and placed in prison. They were not allowed to use that fact of why they committed the crime.

Does that give us veterans with PTSD a window that should allow us extra help even in a court of law? I'm not sure. I have PTSD, but I haven't committed a crime. I'm not sure how to properly attack this.

Response by Sgt Tom Derus made Jan 19 at 2015 2:38 PM

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Yes, especially if they have ptsd

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 19 at 2015 5:34 PM

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I think that this all depends on the crime. If it is someone that has a significant criminal history then the answer is no. i have been deployed three times at two different locations and this dose not mean I should be allowed to break the law. if you have a Sm that the crime was caused due to a health problem then maybe the answer would be at this point be yes. So again it all depends on the crime.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 19 at 2015 5:35 PM

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Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 19 at 2015 5:36 PM

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Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 19 at 2015 5:41 PM

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Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jan 19 at 2015 5:50 PM

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I believe there are distinct levels of delineation with respect to why they are in court. Capital crimes are held at a different level than a misdemeanor. There should be separate evaluations for the veterans in case a little bit of help is useful in helping a veteran through their particular situational difficulty so they can correct behavior and become a productive human being, as opposed to another lost soul who served.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jan 19 at 2015 5:51 PM

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Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jan 19 at 2015 5:51 PM

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Response by PO1 William Bargar made Jan 19 at 2015 5:55 PM

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As a "Veteran" shouldn't you be held to a higher standard? I think so.......

Response by Sgt Arthur Went made Jan 19 at 2015 7:14 PM

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I don't believe we should get special treatment if you commit a crime.

Response by LTC Mark Ronning made Jan 19 at 2015 9:07 PM

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I retired in 2013 after 15 years in the Army JAG Corps and 9 years in combat arms. I recall my opposition to Veterans Courts while on my final Iraq tour in 2010. From within the military I viewed Veterans Courts as somehow offering an excuse for poor behavior. Following retirement I quickly changed my viewpoint following first hand contact with the veterans who had legal issues for the first times in their lives. The vast majority of men and women who I encountered had stellar military records and no prior legal issues. They shared the military values and did not want special treatment.

I found men and women who needed help to get back on track. I found men and women who daily relived terrible circumstances in a civilian world that shunned them. I found men and women who were repeatedly rejected from employment for which they were qualified. I have yet to find a veteran who wanted to go before the Veterans Court in order to get a deal. In fact, I have not found that Veterans Courts are there to let vets off the hook.

While each State is different, and in Oregon each county with a Vets Court is also different, the premise of our local courts is to look at more than the crime - but instead to look at the bigger picture. The photo above is from Marion County, Oregon. I have opened a law practice here in Marion County which employs veterans and dependents and which provides general legal services to veterans and Servicemembers. There is a great need because the legal community is primarily composed of individuals with no military background. Rarely is there understanding of DD 214 versus a VBA 21-0958, much less what it means to have been a gunner in a lead vehicles during OIF.

The Veterans Court in Marion County was established in recognition of the sacrifices that veterans have made for their country. The Heroes and Heritage Hall outside of the Veterans Treatment Court is adorned with stories of local veterans. It tells the stories of those local veterans who went before us, displaying the military values that we hold close to our hearts. The Heroes and Heritage Hall reminds veterans as the walk into the Courtroom that they are something more than the crime of which they are accused. It reminds them that they stand on the shoulders of the men and women who went before them. It reminds them that they represent the American military tradition and that others still look to them for what it means to be a Soldier, an Airman, a Sailor or a Marine.

Our court looks to the crime committed, of course. It is a justice court. However, justice is not served by the mandatory sentences which politicians like to impose. Justice is served by deliberate evaluation of the crime committed, the circumstances surrounding the crime and the punishment or the reparation or the treatment needed to atone for the crime. In my experience, the Marion County Veterans Treatment Court is a shining example of the American justice system ideal. It provides a thoughtful and comprehensive societal response when individuals are charged with illegal acts. It takes into account that the individuals have placed themselves in harms way for the good of society and partners with community and veteran organizations to support the veterans who sacrificed for their country.

The Veterans Court in Marion County Oregon, like most Veterans Courts, does not have a dedicated funding source. It depends on grants, good will and continued community support for future operations. The cost of returning our veterans to productive lives and giving them a hand up is so much less, however, than the cost of incarceration. I venture to say that nobody is harder on a veteran who committed a crime than that veteran is on him or herself. What the veteran often needs is a battle buddy, a mentor and a system that is willing to recognize the military values that still reside within. These men and women raised their hands and defended their country without hesitation. Their mindset and their view of the world is not the same as those who would occupy the cell to their left and their right.

Veterans Courts have the ability to positively impact honorable lives that have turned down a bad path. By placing a veteran to the accused's left and right, by demanding accountability and by expecting the best of the accused, veterans often rise to reflect the Soldier, Airman, Sailor or Marine that still resides within them.

I could not have been more wrong in opposing the Veterans Courts while I was active duty. That opinion resulted from an ignorance of what many veterans face on discharge. Never leave a fallen comrade became a part of who I was in the Army, and remains a part of who I am. The veterans who face the criminal justice system of do so because of deep wounds and the Veterans Courts help to rescue them when they need the support of their fellow veterans.

Mark Ronning / Northwest Veterans Law / Salem, Oregon

Response by LCpl Lawrence Toledo made Jan 19 at 2015 11:41 PM

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Why not? So what if they have long criminal histories. I for one have a violent criminal record. And I'm treated very well by the sheriffs department and the state whenever I get locked up. There are many special programs for us Vets inside the walls. In fact the last vet program I was in, back in 2006, brought back that military bearing. I was able to realize I needed to change my life for the better. And I did and continue to this day. Not only am I clean and sober but in perfect health and back on track.

Response by 1LT Jeremy Ramsey made Jan 20 at 2015 1:41 AM

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I am a former JAG officer and I currently have my own practice where I try to assist veterans in their legal needs. I am involved in a local veterans court and I see the answer to this question in two challenging ways:

1. Veterans should hold themselves to a higher standard. We are representatives of a noble calling and history. While on active duty, I was always disappointed to see my fellow soldiers acting without integrity, which happened often, sadly. When we accept the position of a soldier it should be reflected in our actions. We are not perfect, but we should act in a way that leads people to respect us and look up to us. This should continue in our time as veterans.

2. Most veterans that I know with legal issues just don't know what to do with their training, experience, and new lives once they have been discharged. Some have literally been trained as weapons and then are thrust into the civilian world without any direction or therapy. How are they to respond? Most dive into alcoholism, drug abuse, and violence. The VA does very little to help and does not look like they are trying to improve. So this leads to a "perfect storm" where soldiers are constantly breaking the law. This should allow lenience in their punishment. However, what good will any court do if the soldiers are not provided with some type of outlet, direction, purpose, or hope? I see many studies about soldier suicide and PTSD, but little about ways to solve these dilemmas.

Personally, I think there should be more focus on promoting family life and Biblical values. It is one of the few successful rehabilitative paths that I have personally observed and promotes the integrity that I mentioned above.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Jan 20 at 2015 12:25 PM

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All behavior is learned. Of course the Veteran should and need and should get special consideration. Training re education what ever they need they should get. We have asked no more of any command, In War, in our entire nations history, Other then the Revolution, The Civil War, and now The war on Terror. It is It's self a new style of War. One that consumes nations in fear. And you bother to even ask if they should get special help. YES and Then some. You go and do what they had to do for there country and try being on your on. That is the bases of suicide.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 3:40 PM

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Absolutely not. A Service Member should be held accountable for their actions and poor decision making abilities just like everyone else. I have been serving proudly in the US Army for over 21 years now, and I see people that try to take advantage of their “veteran status”, whether they are active or not too often when they are in some sort of trouble with the law. Service Members and Veterans NEED to be held to a higher standard not have their issues and troubles be “taken care of”.

Response by LCpl Jim Esposito made Jan 20 at 2015 6:25 PM

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Nobody should get special treatment in court because they are a veteran. It should be taken into account, to possibly try and decide on a persons intentions and/consequences. Just like it shouldn't matter if you grew up poor or you are a college grad. How would vets feel if the justice system were harder on them because we are suppose to be honorable and honest, etc.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 6:26 PM

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A crime is a crime whether you're military, ex military or you never served. Military and ex military should set a positive example.

However I would understand if for minor crimes on a case by case basis that if found guilty they got a reduced sentence, but on the same token for more serious crimes, also on a case by case basis, some may need a harsher punishment.

That's just my opinion, but I think this is a great discussion topic.

Response by PO2 Wayne Kleinschmidt made Jan 20 at 2015 6:36 PM

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Yes I can see in some cases where a combat Veteran came home and has PTSD or other military situations may need special consideration. We have a decorated combat Veteran in our community that was medically discharged for PTSD. The military never told his family, police, sheriff, VA, or anyone ells that he was even coming home much less why. With in months of his getting home someone set him off and he killed the individual. In the course of investigating the Veteran and his situation it was found that his 1st Sgt. feared for his life when he was around this Veteran as he thought he was in Afghanistan. He now is in jail and scares the guards. He starts yelling at all hours of the day and night calling in firing missions and the like. He hits the floor if a door is slammed. The other prisoners fear him because as they put it "he's a bomb waiting to go off". Since he has been incarcerated he has received no mental health appointments, and has been taken off all medication that the Army had put him on to help control his PTSD. I have had to educate the local law enforcement on how to properly handle him. No one in this area including the defenders office know anything about the military much less PTSD and what can happen if untreated. The local judge has called me numerous times to ask questions, and get phone numbers of VA doctors that can help him out. So in short yes we need to at very least educate the local judicial system on proper handling of Veterans.

Response by Cpl Joshua Vrooman made Jan 20 at 2015 9:24 PM

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For me it would depend on the nature of the crime. Was it something that was brought on and aggravated by their service, ie did some civi get his teeth kicked in for saying something similar to what Michael Moore recently posted about snipers?? That to me might warrant some understanding and leniency.

If it was a crime in which the veteran used his military training to assist him in committing a crime or if the crime itself was particularly heinous in nature, I believe that they should be judged as any other criminal.

Generally speaking I consider military personnel to "know better" than the average person what is and is not acceptable behavior and conduct as not just a citizen but a citizen who volunteered to uphold the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic. If you stray from that promise to your country and its people, be prepared to be judged.

Response by Sgt Arthur Grant made Jan 21 at 2015 12:11 PM

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Once upon a time veterans came home and they were well regarded, given good jobs and treated appropriate to their contribution to the country. This isn't the case now.

Veterans can suffer from issues that were caused as a consequence of their service to their country, and this might lead to an issue with the law, such as an altercation where the veteran is threatened and subsequently acts according to his military training, especially Marines. I want to immediately clarify that I am not discriminating against anyone who served in the other branches. The difference with Marines is what? First and foremost, everyone who has been a Marine is trained first and foremost with infantry skills. In the other services, this training may less depending on their MOS. A cook might have mild training, for example, or a Navy engineer's mate might not have the same extent of combat training. But every Marine gets this first and foremost. I acknowledge there are other divisions of the branches which then further develop these skills, such as Special Forces and Seals. But you guys know what I mean. It's difficult. You are trained to do a certain THING to those who oppose you, and the civilians sometimes don't respect this. You are never going to be the same as them: they shouldn't screw with us They ought to know better. But they don't. And they push you and mess with you, and they don't have a clue what they are messing with. These skills we have as a consequence of our military service ought to be considered, not that we are a detriment to society, but that we have done something FOR the country and that is forever.

So yes, veteran status should be considered in the eyes of the law. If an off-duty police officer receives consideration in a court of law, then so likewise should those who have served in the military, because we are NOT civilians, and never again will be.

Response by PO2 Doug Niergarth made Jan 21 at 2015 1:07 PM

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Typically, no there should be no difference in the treatment of veterans. The one exception that I can see is when the vet is suffering from PTSD. This is a situation where the nation has consented to send their people into harms way and, as such, needs to suck it up and deal with what that action does to people.
Not that this should apply to all civil infractions mind you but the use of trained and experienced shrinks in the courtroom could moderate the impending punishment to get the most advisement for upstream treatment of vets just getting out. If the infraction is a case of the vet dealing with veteran issues, it needs to be recognized as such.

Response by Cpl Joel Grissom made Jan 22 at 2015 11:01 AM

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In some cases I can see "special" treatment, only to defer to the fact that they have served their country honorably. When I first read this I thought, "like celebrities?". I do think that veterans should be given a small amount of deference with a good chewing out - something to the effect of "I am taking into account your honorable service to our country, but you are not acting honorably now".

Not to digress (but I will), I think it is stupid that we give deference to celebrities. If you stole a pair of shoes, you should pay the price, the same as everyone else. Just because you are on TV or movies you should not get released from jail early. If it is delaying a multi-million dollar budgeted movie, too bad. They will think twice before committing a crime again, because their career will suffer.

Because of this stance, I think that veterans should be given a small amount of leeway, in terms of what the punishment is or how severe the punishment is.

Response by Sgt Sam Granado made Jan 30 at 2015 5:57 PM

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I think as veterans we should be held to a higher standard. You fill in the blanks.

Response by SSG Randall Ford made Jan 30 at 2015 8:28 PM

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I feel it should go by an individual case by case. If the vet has a bad case of PTSD I'd say consider. If just trying to use the being a vet bears no difference. I've seen vets use that excuse used several times. Such as guy left his dog in a hot car and when confronted about it used the excuse he was a veteran. Now do you think that makes a difference. Hell no. you did your time but gives you no right to be cruel to animals or children or anyone for that fact. Just a sorry a.$ careless bum.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Jan 30 at 2015 9:15 PM

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Yes and No. Depend on the circumstances and type of crime.

Response by SPC James Pfost, Jr. made Jan 30 at 2015 9:20 PM

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I would say yes, but only as a way of maybe having a separate Veterans Court. Thus allowing them to work off the remainder of what's leftover from sentences. That said, major crimes such as murder, different feeling towards that.

Response by LT Vincent Wittig made Jan 31 at 2015 2:27 PM

2015-01-31T14:27:49-05:00

I believe that question should be left up to the judge. If there is a history of mental health problems linked to military service, then I don't think it's a bad idea. Proving the link is the difficult part. I pose a question to you and the group. Should military members receive harsher punishment then their civilian counterparts? Ie UCMJ court martial. I've witnessed soldiers receive 2-3 times the prison time a civilian would have received for the same offense. Not only would they serve time for a first offense with no previous criminal record, they lose their career and on top of that are given a disonorable discharge. Where is the justice in that? I know many will reply with military is held to a higher standard. That is a cop out answer. People make mistakes in life. Should it be a mistake they live with their whole life because they made the decision to serve their country? When you really reflect on it, a travesty is occurring. An issue I think the general public is blind to.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 1 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-02-01T14:08:47-05:00

Here is an example of the a Veterans Court working for the veteran and not necessarily punishing him. http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/local/2015/01/31/ex-marines-path-sobriety-began-veterans-court/22657959/

Ex-Marine's path to sobriety began with Veterans Court

Participating in Brown County specialty treatment court may have saved his life, he says.

Response by MSgt Stephen Dodimead made Feb 5 at 2015 12:10 AM

2015-02-05T00:10:39-05:00

I am torn here because if the vet commits murder and is suffering from PTS maybe some consideration should be used. This is a difficult issue to reason out but, if a crime is committed the victim rights need to be considered too.

Response by CPO Scott Hosler made Mar 1 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-03-01T12:26:05-05:00

No! Period. Although I would stand behind stiffer punishment.

I recognize that there are exceptions to every rule, and that sometimes there might be a lot of gray around crime circumstances. However, a soldier, sailor, or airman have all been trained to achieve higher results, to act with honor and courage, and to defend the constitution. Breaking a law is simply not acceptable, and should be punished. And when the trust that has been bestowed upon us is violated, the punishment should be more stern IMHO.

Response by PO2 Jeffrey Sheibels made Jul 7 at 2015 9:50 PM

2015-07-07T21:50:46-04:00

No one, I mean absolutely, no one should receive any kind of special treatment after committing a crime. The justice system needs to remain unbiased towards everyone regardless of any kind of status, race, sex, or creed that they might be. The justice system should remain blind to these things.

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Sep 7 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-09-07T19:57:13-04:00

On account of what? Absolutely NO. Some vets were already delinquents and law breakers before they joined or were given the option to join by a judge. Only a Corrupt, Incompetent and Perverse Legal system would do that.

Response by SSgt Shane Karst made Sep 11 at 2015 1:15 AM

2015-09-11T01:15:52-04:00

All evidence should be weight, period. A rape victim should be considered for psychological help following a crime, because trauma does absolutely have its effect. It's not just veterans. If a person was hurt or killed in the crime, justice must be meted out for that. That is to help with the healing process of the victim and victim's family. Our justice system, quite frankly, is poorly set up in my opinion. I'd like to see true corrections and rehabilitation and not at the tremendous expense of taxpayers. Paying for a criminals education is not fixing the problem inside of them. That's what it's supposed to be about, isn't it? What about setting up correctional facilities staffed with recovering drug addicts for drug offenders? Working with the inmates will help those in recovery and provide real rehabilitation for the offender. The same holds true with veterans with PTSD. They must accept justice for their crime, but throwing them in a cell isn't really going to help them or society.

Response by SSG Bruce Booker made Sep 17 at 2015 3:50 PM

2015-09-17T15:50:42-04:00

This has been an interesting discussion so far. I'm a Vietnam vet who spent a 37-year career in a large law enforcement agency. (I have my own 'stress issues' from both.)

Some veterans deployed to a combat zone, some didn't. Some of those who deployed saw actual combat, some didn't. Some of those who saw combat suffer from PTSD and/or have other disabilities, some don't. Why would just "being a veteran" be a reason to allow your or me to receive a lesser punishment, or escape punishment altogether, if we commit a crime? Would the same "special treatment" apply to other groups, like Peace Corps or Red Cross volunteers, or international aid workers, some of whom work in very dangerous, stressful places? (Just asking, not suggesting.) (As one comment in this discussion pointed out, some veterans were thugs when they joined, they were thugs while they served, and they are still thugs after they get out.)

Service-related disabilities, both mental and physical, deserve the same consideration as any other disabilities, especially similar disabilities, regardless of the cause. (You don't have to be a military veteran to suffer from PTSD, although it seems to be much more prevalent among vets.) Did a disability significantly impair someone's ability to "form criminal intent," the ability to tell right from wrong? If it did, then is the cause of that disability really relevant? Legally, either we're impaired or we're not.

If my disability doesn't rise to that threshold, it can still be considered as a "mitigating factor" at sentencing. I've seen that happen many times.

So in answer to your question, should veterans receive special treatment in court, I'll answer, "Sometimes, but not because they are a veteran." In the legal system, we should be held just as accountable, and also receive the same considerations, as anyone else.

Response by LCpl James Robertson made Sep 24 at 2015 5:26 PM

2015-09-24T17:26:42-04:00

This is not special treatment for veterans only, even civilians after committing felony crimes has the right to be examined by a psychiatrist, to determined if a person is sane or insane to stand trial. For example if the veteran now have the mental capacity of a Ten year old, trying him in regular court is not Justice. This veterans would then have to be tried in Court in a Mental Health Facility, which could lead to life incarcerated in a Mental Health Institution. It doesn't mean a person goes free for his/her crime sane or insane, its just finding the right court for the person(s) circumstances if treatment is needed for the rest of his/her life.

Response by SSG Chris B. made Jan 15 at 2016 4:08 PM

2016-01-15T16:08:42-05:00

I have PTSD. With depression and anxiety disorder along with a whole host of other physical ailments from my time in. I have a service dog and medication that helps me get through the worst of it along with a support group of my friends and family. If I were to go rob a liquor store I would expect no special treatment. Then again everyone's different. Some people don't have the support structure I have and don't have the morality that was instilled in me as a child. So, no, I don't believe that every vet needs special treatment. Some might some don't. Lumping us all together as one blanket category is the same as saying all blacks are gang bangers on welfare.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Jan 15 at 2016 10:22 PM

2016-01-15T22:22:09-05:00

I know this thread is over a year old, but I wanted to comment.

I serve in the Guard, have an incredible civilian career that affords me both the ability to fund philanthropic endeavors and to give my time for vets. Working as a mentor (and later, mentor team leader) in our county Veterans Court seemed like a great way to send the elevator back down to guys who need it. Reality is complicated; vets seem loathe to give a fully honest accounting.

Here are a few observations:
1) The mentor role can either be a joke or a real boon to prior service members (and occasionally, drilling Guard) in the program. I am 40, and am the youngest mentor in our program, and having first enlisted active duty 22 years ago, am the only one with service past the Vietnam Era. Most of our participants are GWOT veterans. For the older vets, showing up for the court sessions and taking notes seems to be about the extent of their actual involvement as mentors with these troops. It's a shirt and a hat and a warm fuzzy without any real commitment. There are about four of us that take late night phone calls like an AA sponsor would, or drive people to the VA Clinic or the VA Hospital 20 miles away. There is a kiss-ass relationship in many instances between the court staff and our mentors; whereas on paper we're to be advocates for our guys (not legal, but personal), many times in spite of that mentors will betray confidences to probation officers.
2) This Court ostensibly should help reduce one of the leading causes of veteran homelessness--criminal recidivism. It *does* put prior service members in touch with a litany of programs and services. Many of our participants live at several local rehab or transitional living centers, with beds specifically allocated for vets. We have some that are still functionally homeless, but it's generally managed.
a) Problem A - The Court is a political boon for judges (if elected) and District Attorneys. Since it can also be a liability, District Attorneys only put low risk offenders in. I fought hard to get a veteran with severe PTSD, self-medicating through that and the loss of his wife, into the program. He really could have used the care, the support of his veteran peers, and the programs, but because it was his fourth DUI, he was too big a risk. Instead, we get admitted non-combat veteran first offenders. Sorry, but some Cold War era veteran whose sole risk was incurred in training does NOT merit the same treatment as a veteran wrestling with demons acquired in combat. But that's what we get. Safe bets that don't carry a risk for the DA. And I understand this--it's a matter of public safety. But don't beat your damn chest and pretend how much you love veterans.
b) Problem B - Non-combat veterans get into the program on the merits of an honorable discharge. Nothing sets my teeth on edge than someone getting this privilege when they have zero overseas time on the DD214. Go to ARD with the rest of the DUIs, do your domestic violence time like the rest of the wife-beaters. The government never cashed the "blank check," so move along smartly and make room for guys who are drowning the screams of their buddies out with the drink, or for crying out loud, huffing industrial chemicals. We've seen it all.
3) The program encourages participants to be honest, but what they really mean is "follow the script." If a veteran is in the program because he was drinking, and he's not getting anything out of anger management, the court doesn't receive, "I cannot see the value in this" very well. It wants to hear "everything is just peachy."
4) The court places an onerous burden on participants. With the demands for appointments, paying off punitive restitution, I've seen veterans with their lives falling apart struggle to meet child support obligations. One fellow couldn't enjoy his custodial time due to court service obligations. When a veteran comes into court, again, being honest, and says, "I can't keep a steady job because you demand I go to this or that appointment at the VA that is unnecessary, my child support is in arrears, I have less than $100 a month to live on right now and I can't see my kids," it gets me so angry that there is very little to no concern for the court creating exactly the kinds of triggers. The drop out rate is high, a figure that no one is tracking. We've had suicides. The court evades accepting any responsibility or part in these things. It does not recognize that it creates many of the factors that most real 12 step programs try to help eliminate in people's lives.
5) That onerous burden also requires, as a diversion program, offenders to render a guilty plea for the litany of crimes the DA tosses at them. They might have the prison sentence deferred, but they end up paying the financial penalty for the full spectrum of charges, many of which they could defeat or reduce with the help of a sound defense attorney. As I mention above with the inability of these courts to account for or reconcile with every other obligation, when the bill comes due for restitution from the prothonotary, it's hell on these guys.
6) There is an issue, one that is surely controversial, in that minority veterans are seldom accepted into the program. When they are, at least locally, they have, to date, been far less successful than non-minority peers.

It's a program with its heart in the right place, with a lot of potential to do a lot of good.
1) It does demand drug and alcohol offenders undergo abstinence-based recovery.
2) It forces participants to do not just mandatory public service hours, but large phase packets for each of the four phases prior to graduation, as well as one big service project they set up and run. One guy started a new support group, another created a riparian restoration project, all good stuff that reminds these folks that the military imbued them with much leadership potential, and the ability to exist on a plane beyond their addictions.
3) Again, it puts vets in touch with programs that are good.

If you want to be a mentor - remember that the judge, the DA, probation and parole rely on YOU to lend them legitimacy. Our mentors, myself included, are the only folks besides the participants who serve or have served. That means we can't just sit in the back of the courtroom and nod our heads. If something is bullshit, it is absolutely vital that we stand for our participants, while remembering that many of them are highly skilled in manipulation. But it's the court's job to be cynical. Our job is to be a damn battle buddy.

I just advise anyone caught up in the justice system and considering this program to weigh the effects of pleading guilty and paying those fines, as well as participating in a program that will consume at least 20-30 hours a week in its early phases, 10-15 in its late phases, and keeps its hooks in you long after, against negotiating/reducing charges through a plea deal with the DA. If you find the considerable burden of this program overwhelming, you end up right back where you started, with no way out of a guilty plea, and the promise of expungement or sentencing deferment gone, a seriously bad move in the case of misdemeanors. If you can get in the program with felony charges (rare), do give it your best shot, but seriously think about it even for Misdemeanor 1 charges.

I'm not a lawyer, not even close - but the focus seems to be on whether or not vets merit special treatment. I would put forth is that it's not a slam dunk that it's the right kind of special treatment anyway!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 8 at 2018 10:37 PM

2018-05-08T22:37:32-04:00

1. It is not a normal court. 2. It is a Veterans Court. 3. They take in to effect that you may or actually are suffering of PTSD/depression/self medication and or alcohol abuse. 3. I t is a bear- you are assigned a Vet mentor who ensures to make your appts/meetings/court appearances. You are required to go to counseling for 1 yr, you are normally required to do community service for 1 year and stay clean for that year. You miss one item and you either start over or you go to regular court. If you graduate the program- the judge can grant further probation, expunge your record, dismiss the charges- their call. This court does not cover, murder, rape, aggravated assault or attempted murder. If they have a series of crimes - they are not allowed in the program- it is mainly for 1st time offenders