Should Veterans receive special treatment when confronted by the law enforcement officers?

CPT Jack Durish — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:41:47 -0400

When veterans returned from WWII, they were transported in troop ships that forced them to decompress among others who had shared their travails. Today's veterans, including those who served in Vietnam, often find themselves deposited abruptly among civilians who neither know or care about their lives and experiences. It's bound to open old wounds and create new ones, and some veterans find themselves in conflict with law enforcement officers. It becomes military vs paramilitary, and the consequences can be dire. Should we support this new initiative?

Friends, family of slain veteran Brian Babb propose new federal law billed as “Brian’s Bill” |...

The president of the NAACP’s Eugene-Springfield chapter on Wednesday pledged his support to the family and friends of Brian Babb, the military veteran killed by a Eugene police officer earlier this year, and to their call for new federal legislation that would require changes in how police across the country respond to veterans in crisis. “I think it’s important that we team up when we deal with these issues that are common to all of us,” said...

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Sep 6 at 2015 3:44 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:44:10 -0400

Probably not; unless, they are clearly displaying evidence that they are veterans CPT Jack Durish
Law enforcement has a lot to deal with already in highly troubled areas. If there is sufficient warning and the police have time to look up the background on somebody then it that case special treatment or response techniques may be appropriate. However that could go either way for the veteran depending on his/her training and experience which is contained in the record.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Sep 6 at 2015 3:45 PM

SGT Scott Bell — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:45:38 -0400

some

Response by SGT Forrest Stewart made Sep 6 at 2015 3:56 PM

SGT Forrest Stewart — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:56:52 -0400

No.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Sep 6 at 2015 3:58 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:58:48 -0400

Given the severity of PTSD that many Vietnam and OIF/OEF/DS vets are suffering, and the issues that result from this, I think this is a good idea. Of course, how does a police officer encountering someone who is drunk, high or in a psychotic break, know that the person is a veteran with PTSD, unless that person is able to vocalize it? All of these issues are SYMPTOMS of unmanaged PTSD, and can lead to violent encounters.

Ultimately it is incumbent on police agencies to learn to control scenes without violent intervention wherever possible. I've mentioned this before, but police who are trained and experienced as Corrections Officers, are much more equipped to handle these situations without weapons.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Sep 6 at 2015 3:59 PM

Sgt Spencer Sikder — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 15:59:29 -0400

Based on the article, a qualified yes. Today's law enforcement has challenges laid down by court precedence the likes we have never seen before. The interpretation of the civil rights, the advent of social media and the continued need of our politicians to placate their constituency by enacting more and more rules makes law enforcement a challenge in it's own right. Now we add mental health into the picture and departments across the country have had to begin training officers to be conflict mediators. The uniqueness of military service adds yet another caveat. While there are many former military members serving in law enforcement, their experiences may be different than those with whom they may one day have to confront, so while I don't think it needs to be yet another law, it should be part of a well rounded training program for not only LEO, but all public servants.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 6 at 2015 4:03 PM

SN Greg Wright — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:03:34 -0400

Not a direct answer to your question --my opinion is that everyone has to follow the law equally and if you have occasion to deal with officers, it wouldn't be any different-- but I've often wondered if LEO agencies would do anything different if they were issued a warrant to arrest a SEAL or Delta operator.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 6 at 2015 4:20 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:20:02 -0400

all citizens should be treated equally

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Sep 6 at 2015 4:45 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:45:15 -0400

My opinion, wholeheartedly and overwhelmingly YES!

This is a terrible situation, and Brian was struggling with something beyond what any of us know however, the Law Enforcement Officers have to do their jobs. My answer is yes, Veterans should receive special treatment, many have dedicated themselves and demonstrated an incredible sense of duty defending our country. The honor and sacrifice by our veterans will never be understood by the general population, the LEO are probably the closest to understand what we go through as Veterans because they go out on a daily basis to confront home grown threats. Yes, we do deserve special treatment!

Response by SPC Bill Earley made Sep 6 at 2015 5:08 PM

SPC Bill Earley — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:08:52 -0400

I think yes because we have our private issues and at the same time no because we are responsible adults who should abide by the laws of the land we try to keep free.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2015 5:09 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:09:11 -0400

I would say yes but not to the point where a veteran is over the top and being a menace. Otherwise one guys the feeling that our service had or has no value.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 6 at 2015 5:17 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:17:24 -0400

Simply from a pragmatic standpoint, I don't think it's feasible.

I think CPT Jack Durish's leading paragraph is actually the "cause" as opposed to the articles's "symptom" in this case. We need to treat the root of the problem, not go after the symptoms. Placing bets on reactionary forces is going to lead to more dire consequences.

Response by SPC Bill Earley made Sep 6 at 2015 5:18 PM

SPC Bill Earley — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:18:17 -0400

I can't remember the exact amount but I was getting paid 80-83 and we still had to go to gym or whatever to get paid. I guarantee you it was less than yours but the military taught us how to become efficient!

Response by SPC Bill Earley made Sep 6 at 2015 5:24 PM

SPC Bill Earley — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:24:38 -0400

I wish I could help , I hauled jp4and 5 . Refueled many birds back in the day.

Response by LTC Robert Flynn made Sep 6 at 2015 8:04 PM

LTC Robert Flynn — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 20:04:52 -0400

It depends on the situation and circumstances. Many veterans suffer from PTSD and other mental health issues. They react differently from non-veterans. This needs consideration on a case by case basis.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 6 at 2015 9:36 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 21:36:28 -0400

"Should veterans receive special treatment when confronted by the law enforcement officers?"

Yes absolutely, they should be treated with respect, unless they don't deserve it.. But I'd say the same thing about Grandma, little timmy, The UPS guy and USPS lady, the guy that checks my water meter and the garbage men as well. OK , well I guess, no, veterans should not receive special treatment when confronted by the law enforcement officers....
If any of the above are observed needing special treatment, from a helping hand to a bullet in the chest, they should get it..without regards to what they may have done yesterday, for themselves, the country, or Walmart

Response by SFC Joseph James made Sep 6 at 2015 10:11 PM

SFC Joseph James — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 22:11:46 -0400

I think that the cop should know that they are dealing with a veteran, but how they deal with it is up to them. Remember most cops are professional and are veterans themselves.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Sep 7 at 2015 5:00 AM

SSgt David Tedrow — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 05:00:04 -0400

Special treatment no, understanding and training with dealing with veterans yes. As a Police Officer I have been trained to deal with veterans, PTSD, depression and other issues veterans and all people deal with.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 7:27 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 07:27:56 -0400

Veterans should both receive and give special treatment. Or no special treatment depending on the individual case an situation.

Almost every confrontations seems to get replayed over and over, and in almost each case the LEO or the one confronted are portrayed as totally wrong or totally right.

Frankly folks, I believe we must quit being the judge and jury unless we were present and have seen just what happened and what the actions reactions of the parties involved were.

Special treatment? No. Treatment with respect (by both parties) yes.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Sep 7 at 2015 11:01 AM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:01:16 -0400

Nope

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Sep 7 at 2015 6:03 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 18:03:13 -0400

I have had numerous run ins with the Law since I have been back. I have never broken the law and never intend to. The run ins always start out with being polite to them and then being offended by them and my not backing down to them. Just this last Jan I had an officer come at me in my driveway with his 12 D cell Mag Light raised in an attempt to intimidate me because he was telling me I had to do something I was told by my lawyer NOT to do. I stood my ground and it came to a stand off between the two of us. Since then They have broken my fence down several times in the middle of the night and once scared a young Lady as he was right next to her window at 2 a.m. Just today I had a patrol drive by my house 3 times at a snails pace, I walked into the middle of the street and confronted him with what he was looking for and if I could help, he just looked at me and drove off.Its these kinds of tactics they use on people to either scare them or create a situation they deem fit to use force on.

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Sep 7 at 2015 7:51 PM

SPC Luis Mendez — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 19:51:42 -0400

Absolutely NO! A delinquent, a law breaker, a criminal is such regardless of military record. Many veterans joined the service already with a record, even to avoid jail. This was a crisis in the late 70's when thousands were given the option of jail or army. They were taking HS and MS dropouts by the bus loads. It got so bad that NCO's and CO's were assaulted by former civilian gang members turned recruits by a judge.

So on account of what would anyone even think of such a thing. Only in a Perverse Politico-legal system such a thing can be suggested.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 6:56 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 06:56:26 -0400

No. Adjust or get run over. Anyone that isn't fat or straight up retarded can join the military. Special treatment because of it is stupid, and the feeling of entitlement that so many service members have is absolute bullshit. You're not someone special. None of us are.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Sep 8 at 2015 7:19 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:19:19 -0400

We are all equal under the law. No double standards.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 7:26 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:26:43 -0400

I think it's a great idea, CPT Jack Durish, but is it a practical idea? Maybe, if the special treatment means that specially trained officers would respond to the types of calls that resulted in the death of Brian Babb. After reading the article, I like the idea, but I'm not sure it can be implemented in a meaningful, effective way.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Sep 8 at 2015 9:35 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:35:52 -0400

Everyone should be treated the same until they make the LEO to not treat them the same.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Sep 8 at 2015 9:36 AM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:36:41 -0400

Perhaps we just want to be treated the same way that law enforcement treat each other..... as in not a criminal by default

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Sep 8 at 2015 12:21 PM

SPC Andrew Griffin — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:21:53 -0400

I believe they should! However, it should be determinate based upon the Offense and the Severity of it!

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Sep 8 at 2015 1:03 PM

SPC David Hannaman — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:03:02 -0400

Yes, and no. I have friends in law enforcement that admit when they put on the uniform their demeanor changes... to quote one "I become kind of an asshole".

Part of this is because they deal with some of the worst in humanity on a daily basis. Leaving a call where an addict is abusing his children and going directly to a call where a soccer mom forgot her baby in a car it's to be expected that the experience would influence his perspective.

Ultimately our judicial system is set up the way it is to avoid "heat of the moment" judgement, but that assumes that everyone gets a fair trial, not just the person who has the ability to hire a talented lawyer.

Of course I go back to my philosophy that "certain professions are callings, not careers." Law enforcement, teachers, healers, clergy... when they're in it for money or some other reason than the joy of helping people in need it usually does creates catastrophic failure.

We should expect all citizens to be responsible for their own actions... there are plenty of examples of prior military that as civilians don't represent idealized picture of the American soldier, and training *can* make us even more dangerous (not always, but possibly).

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Sep 8 at 2015 1:08 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:08:40 -0400

No one deserves special treatment from law enforcement.
We have to be respectful and even if irritated that we are being pulled over have to remember that the police are only doing their job.
And police officers also are being trained constantly in how to deal with various situations but remember no two situations are alike.
Its a 2 way street in dealings with law enforcement and I will admit I even "accidentally" handed my military / retired ID a few times when asked for my license. The police officers just smiled and said "Sir, your drivers license please".
I am pretty certain that 99.99% of law enforcement are only looking to do their job but in todays crazy world they have to approach each situation as life or death.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 8 at 2015 1:18 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 13:18:18 -0400

Too many holes in the story to make a real informed opinion. Would like to see the follow on results. From what I see and read, it's a mixed bag. There are many cases of suicide by cop, and no one talks about the cops trauma knowing this just happened. In regards to the treatment of vets as a different class, where will it end? Do we get to move to the front of the line at Walmart now? Do we bump folks at the local hospital ER? I already know we have reserved beds in the psych wards everywhere. Treat us as the first class citizens we are; the same way all American's are first class citizens. I want to know how he had a weapon in the house and family and the therapist didn't take it away knowing his condition? If the vet needed this level of assistance, there shouldn't be a weapon near him until he's stabilized. Dammit I hate to support VA and those letters telling folks to turn in their weapons, but in this case, could it have saved his life?

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Sep 8 at 2015 3:11 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:11:40 -0400

As we served in more dire circumstances than many police do I say we deserve a little extra measure of respect. I wasn't aware of Brian's Bill Thank You. We should be "teaming Up"!
Rick

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 9:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 09:02:59 -0400

No, but I do believe that the recognition of a person's prior military service may better help the police department and law enforcement agencies involved to understand and perhaps act on the situation. This may influence how these agencies act in a given situation but as far as special treatment a definite "No".

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 9:40 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 09:40:02 -0400

Common standard for all.

That said, LE officers are similar enough to us in many ways to understand where the "limits" are between someone being a law abiding citizen...and feeling they have to 'defend the perimeter'. Response should meet the threat...not the other way around.

I've had good/bad experiences with LE, and I'm sad to say that the worst were from fellow veterans.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Sep 9 at 2015 1:27 PM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 13:27:20 -0400

Suicide by cop is what it sounds like. When it comes to dealing with people in distress, there needs to be more empathy, less apathy. We are seeing this more with soldiers as PTSD is (FINALLY) starting to be addressed without the stigma of weakness. I think that the idea of a crisis team that can be deployed to assist when someone is out of control would lead to the preservation of life. Not just in fewer police officer involved shootings, but in a reduction in people harming themselves up to and including suicide.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 3:41 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 15:41:21 -0400

Not because of their service. Maybe because of the amount of respect they've learned to show, and deference to authority. Entiled vets being assholes, definitely don't deserve better treatment.

Response by Sgt Edward Allen made Sep 9 at 2015 4:18 PM

Sgt Edward Allen — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:18:44 -0400

As much as I would like to say yes, I must say no. We are all created equal. We are all citizens. What is law for one must be law for all.

Response by TSgt Daniel Wareham made Sep 9 at 2015 4:19 PM

TSgt Daniel Wareham — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:19:47 -0400

This isn't about Veterans receiving special treatment from the police, it's about the police being properly trained how to deal with people with emotional other disorders. That their weapons are not always the answer when confronted with conflict. This is also about the VA doctors calling the police instead of health professionals or someone with the proper training to deal with what the problem truly was. I truly do support the police, but so many of them are not aware of physical, emotional, and mental health issues and many don't want to be.

This man did not have to die that day and it was not "suicide by cop". It was a man who needed help and was failed by the very people who are paid to render that help.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 5:53 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 17:53:39 -0400

I think everyone should be afforded a basic level of respect, but respect is earned.

I'd like to say all of my military brothers and sisters should be given special consideration, but I don't think this is feasible. Then when one considers the miscreant gang members who have infiltrated all branches of the military, how are law enforcement officers to know which are "good guys"?

http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-gang-assessment-us-military-2011-10

http://www.stripes.com/news/fbi-says-u-s-criminal-gangs-are-using-military-to-spread-their-reach-1.57718

The FBI Announces Gangs Have Infiltrated Every Branch Of The Military

"A significant threat to the US military."

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 2:58 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 02:58:34 -0400

They should receive no more special treatment than anyone else dealing with mental issues. PTSD I will acknowledge is real but I think there are too many veterans that using it as a crutch to act like a jackass and not take responsibility for their own actions.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Sep 10 at 2015 4:56 AM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 04:56:42 -0400

All men are created equal. So no, veterans should not receive special treatment.

I did a little research on Mr. Babb and couldn't find proof that he did or did not point his rifle at officers. With that said, I am all for police being held accountable for their actions and do believe that some police shoot some people unnecessarily. But, if a person is pointing a weapon at someone, the person being drawn on has a right to defend themselves. However I do believe that the therapist who called police should have stressed that he suffered from PTSD and maybe the cops should have taken a different approach.

I was going to post a meme of Jim Carrey saying "Stop breaking the law asshole!" from the movie Liar Liar but I decided it wasn't necessarily appropriate here.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 3:14 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:14:06 -0400

CPT JACK DURISH: Should veterans receive special treatment when confronted by law enforcement officers? You don't need the article "the"...
To answer your question: No, I don't think so...