Should We Be Surprised By Male Sailor Misconduct Towards Female Submarine Officers?

2015-03-12T20:55:49-04:00

According to Navy prosecutors, a group of male submarine Sailors aboard the USS Wyoming traded illicit videos of female Officers in various stages of undress "as if they were Pokemon cards."
1.) Does this news really shock or surprise any of you? Why or why not?
2.) Is this a problem unique to this one boat, or does it represent a broader
problem across the Silent Service?
3.) What actions can be taken to prevent future occurrences of conduct such as
this? Who's responsibility is it to fix this?

Just as I did last week with my discussion with the Air Force, I am posting this discussion not to air the Navy's dirty laundry or to point a finger and laugh, but to learn from those of you who are closer to this situation what the reality is and what lessons you are learning that may be beneficial for the Army. I will not tolerate disrespect on this thread, and it is not my intent to see it sink (no pun intended) into a battle of mud-slinging, service-bashing, name-calling, or meme warfare! We are all professionals, comport yourselves accordingly.
Just a little bit about my background, I am a Military Police Officer, one of the few Army Branches that has integrated both genders and places them both equally into positions in which they can be expected to lead Soldiers into direct combat. I have served my entire career alongside women, including combat in Iraq. In my current assignment, I am trained in the Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response Prevention program, serving as my Unit's Victim's Advocate. Therefore, this story holds a professional interest for me.

Thank you!

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 12 at 2015 8:58 PM

2015-03-12T20:58:22-04:00

Yes, we should be surprised that grown men, with security clearances and the trust to run a multi million dollar projection of national power acted like a bunch of middle school kids trying to look at their dad's playboys.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-03-12T21:17:53-04:00

I think the use of the words "should be" implies that "surprised" is a condition in which we aught to be.

And maybe we should be.

But many of us aren't.

http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2013/05/27318.html

I AM surprised that the footage passed through at least a dozen sailors before one of them decided that the other guys were thoroughly (and inevitably) screwed.
Mind blown.

West Point Army Sergeant arrested after recording female soldiers taking showers

(Scroll down for video) A U.S. Military Sergeant was arrested and charged with sexual harassment related charges after recording female soldiers taking showers and using the bathroom, according to a statement released by military officials in West Point, New York.The sergeant first class of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, has been accused of recording women cadets without their consent, sometimes when undressed in the bathroom or...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-03-12T21:25:26-04:00

Surprised? No.
Disappointed? Yes.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 12 at 2015 10:01 PM

2015-03-12T22:01:35-04:00

Hell yeah we should be surprised MAJ Private RallyPoint Member!

Sir, this is not the behavior we expect from our professional military force. We should be ashamed and appalled as well as motivated to take action to prevent a repeat of this indecent behavior. All of our Service Members should expect, and every one of them sure as hell deserve better!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 12 at 2015 10:13 PM

2015-03-12T22:13:26-04:00

1) Surprised? Yes. I'm shocked actually. That anyone can actually think this is acceptable anywhere. I don't get it. I understand erotica, porn, etc. But non-consensual videos, I just don't get it. When the first guy showed the second guy... how did the burn fest not begin.

2) I hope it's isolated. Because if this is endemic, we just need to scrap the entire sub fleet and start over.

3) There will always be idiots. When we catch them, we burn them, and we burn those who tolerate them. As for who's responsible. It's always the individual, but like an unsafe condition, if you see it report it.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 10:39 PM

2015-03-12T22:39:54-04:00

I find the state of anyones surprise to be irrelevant. The fact that this is despicable, disrespectful, and downright wrong, is independent from being surprised. This needs to be dealt with swiftly and strongly and steps taken to try and prevent it.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 12 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-03-12T22:47:00-04:00

This does not shock me, as the submarine world is much like tankers or infantry in the Army; no woman...

Clearly it is unacceptable.

I think this typical of what happens, or will happen when women are allowed to serve in jobs that were previously all male; "the he man woman haters" society.

This needs to be zero tolerance, and it needs to be clear that woman are allowed.

So, get over it.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Mar 12 at 2015 11:07 PM

2015-03-12T23:07:31-04:00

Shocking! You could knock me over with a feather! When did male sailors start liking to look at naked girls? ;)

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 13 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-03-13T07:56:12-04:00

Of course this doesn't surprise me. Disappoint, yes. Surprise, no. The only part that surprised me is LT Hochmuth's comments as a defense attorney -- I wonder if he would also argue that shooting a 6'4" sailor with a .22 short shouldn't count as attempted murder because it only made a tiny hole in him and he was able to walk to the ER?

I doubt that the Wyoming is unique in hosting pockets of these sailors' value set. Immaturity and lack of respect is unfortunately in ample supply.

My own knee-jerk notion of the correct action in this case would be for every sailor who shared one of these videos to lose at lease one pay grade at mast. For recipients who didn't share but also didn't report it, well, let's just say that the Wyoming should have decks clean enough to eat off for a while.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Mar 18 at 2015 2:16 PM

2015-03-18T14:16:07-04:00

Back in the 80s this idea came up, women on submarines. Us bubbleheads all said "are you freaking nuts?" Not saying women can't do the job but the stress of submarine life without both sexes on board is bad enough. Adding this stresser into the mix is bad news and now we see why.

Unless you have ever served on a submarine you can not understand the life. I see a comparison to a tank crew. Not even close. The closest you might get is being on the space station and even then it is tenuous at best.

Studies are showing that submarine vets especially nuke electricians suffer a form of PTSD. Why? Because they are on alert 24/7 for months on end. No fresh air. No sunlight. No outside communications. No way to actually tell what day it is or time either. It is an isolated world.

Why nuke electricians? Because we owned the submarine. I hear this has changed recently. But we owned everything that had power going to it. We owned the "grid". I could be changing a light bulb one minute and then working on a highly technical generator the next. Any time power went out somewhere the electricians were called. It was rare for us to have "time off".

We were in 3 section rotation. That meant 6 hours of standing watch, 6 hours of doing maintenance and supposedly 6 hours of sleep. But for electricians it meant 6 hours of watch 6 hours of working on something, 6 hours of drills, 6 hours of watch, 6 hours of maintenance, 6 hours of cleaning (field day) etc etc. It was not uncommon for us to go over 48 hours without sleep. Most I ever did was 108 hours straight. Major piece of equipment was broken and I was the only one certified to work on it. I fixed it and started hallucinating I guess. I don't remember that part of it.

Anyway. Back to the point. This is not an excuse for what was done. These guys need to be punished. But maybe the Navy needs to rethink this issue too. How about an all female crew? Why not? I think by NOT doing this the Navy is saying women can't do the job.

Oh and I have seen women in the military (and as a civilian) doing things like this too. It isn't just a male problem.

Stop with the social engineering in the military.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 4 at 2015 2:58 AM

2015-06-04T02:58:33-04:00

When I was Master at Arms to Chief of Staff, Commander Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command, had to take one of my fellow first class in front of the Adm for writing something sexist on our Outgoing Female Lts going away card. When they first opened up the Surface Ships to the Ladies it was a Nightmare initially. Nothing surprises me and I rack this up to growing pains.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jun 4 at 2015 3:05 AM

2015-06-04T03:05:15-04:00

Surprised? No. Disappointed? Yes. The first time I saw a woman about a ship was 1993 - USS Ogden (LPD-5). 10-female Midshipmen joined us as we left Pearl Harbor. CoT (Green-side Commander) issued a standing order to "stay clear of the women." Besides, Marines had no direct business with the Mids anyway. Unfortunately, this directive didn't curb the unprofessional interest(s) of some 18-yr old knuckleheads. Fortunately, nothing serious happened. However, by the time we hit our first port o' call, we took on some newbies --replacements for those who didn't embrace (or understand) the directives.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Aug 8 at 2016 11:24 AM

2016-08-08T11:24:54-04:00

I find it hilarious for various reasons. A submarine is not neatly compartmented like in the movies. There are two "shitters" onboard that are out in the open. No door. No cover. Why? Cuz - the sub was built for men. So were I to be using that toilet and a female sailor happen to walk by, then she'd technically/legally be accused of harrasment/voyeurism, etc.

In an ideal world, female and male sailors on board subs will all have their own room, door, head, etc. Too bad it doesn't work that way in real life. By the way, you do know that on most boats, the doors come off the hinges for sound silencing reasons? So on most boats, shower/bathroom doors are replaced by shower curtains. When a wife would come on board, you'd stand outside the curtain while your wife used the facilities.

Theres a lot of spontaneous nudity on board subs. Some of the beds have guages that need to be read near/in them. If you're in bed when I pull back the curtain to read it, I hope you have your jammies on... Pipes flow near/through berthing. Lower level berthing has a huge "pantry" in the floor. What if the cooks - male - need to get into that pantry while the girl sailors are sleeping in that chunk of berthing? Too bad. Get your t-shirt and shorts on and learn not to sleep in the nude (yes - we had multiple complainants bitching about their privacy back in my day).

You'll stand in line to shower wearing only your towel. Try to do it another/different way. Try showering fully dressed because you've been pre-scared/listened to an urban legend. Can't be done. Someones' gonna see skin. "But it shouldn't be done..." Yeah yeah...yada yada. Its called cell phones. Don't want 'em? Ban 'em. Don't like my daughter at school getting upskirted either. But what can you do other than ban phones? Sorry government - no easy/rational answer.

Welcome to submarine life ladies.

Response by PO1 Gery Bastiani made Aug 9 at 2016 9:10 PM

2016-08-09T21:10:50-04:00

Back in the early 80's, at a convention in Las Vagas with a group of Navy fliers they had problems with the male fliers groping and other things with the female fliers it was referred to as the tail hook incident

Response by PO1 Felix Martinez made Sep 1 at 2016 12:30 PM

2016-09-01T12:30:56-04:00

Women on submarines was an inevitability. Having been on a submarine, there is next to no privacy. What was done is unacceptable and should be dealt with swiftly and in accordance with the UCMJ. The message needs to be sent out that such behavior will not be accepted.

In my opinion, such an action by sailors places blame not only on them, but also the command for not effectively setting the atmosphere on the boat. If they can't change old behaviors then room needs to be made for people who can. The sailors aren't kids and neither are the officers. They volunteered to serve. If people have problems following orders or a change in mission, they can very well deal with it until their discharge and leave.

Response by PO2 Christina Hutson made Oct 12 at 2016 8:13 AM

2016-10-12T08:13:13-04:00

Why is that a problem sounds to me men don't want to be ordered around by a female that's pretty sad when we been doing it for year other way around.

Response by CAPT Pete Dallman made Oct 12 at 2016 8:28 AM

2016-10-12T08:28:15-04:00

Yes, I am very surprised. Totally unacceptable behavior. As a matter of fact, if I were on that ship, I would be horrified that someone took advantage of my shipmate/fellow officer in that manner. As for the alleged perpetrators, I believe in justice, especially for the richly deserving. I had one similar type incident when I was in command and it was dealt with professionally and harshly. Completely outside of the norm and any definition/understanding of acceptable behavior.

Response by PO3 Charles Relf made Oct 12 at 2016 10:07 AM

2016-10-12T10:07:20-04:00

I must beg your indulgence, for a while I have seen the postings for rally point. Though I served with US forces, I am not an American. When I joined the group I requested that if I am allowed to join that my true rank be shown, not the equivalent.

I served 22 years in a trade that was men only for my first 5 years. Isolated and semi isolated postings were the norm. Part way through a 6 moth isolated tour the station of 200 men was altered with the addition of 20 Female service members, a few years later the trade was opened to female recruiting.

I have seen good as well as bad action on the parts of both genders. For this action to be ongoing as it appeared to be then there are two issues. One, individuals acting in an unacceptable way. People who should know better yet started and continued to violate rules as well as military regulations. The second is an issue with leadership. Isolated places have very few secrets, if not fully aware, senior leaders had an idea that something was ongoing. By failing to supervise, guide and step in, what may have been a couple individuals being disciplined has resulted in yet another incident where many suffer. Pride, respect, duty. Earned, and given. We have a duty to instill this in every person in our organization, period, full stop

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Oct 12 at 2016 10:22 AM

2016-10-12T10:22:32-04:00

The problem; beginning early as Kindergarten and reinforced in the home, is we often DO NOT teach the values and standards of behavior with respect to dignity, honor, prestige, and reputation. Many of those virtues are learned the hard way and reinforced through the uncomfortable process of consequences. We all know the variety of ways consequences can be manifested…at least I knew them, but I’m not sure consequences are part of today’s educational process. I’m not in favor of women integrated into ALL military billets, but since that is the direction we are moving, I personally would not tolerate this disrespectful behavior regardless of gender.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 12 at 2016 10:52 AM

2016-10-12T10:52:35-04:00

I Guess this is a prime example of why there was so much resistance to Putting Females on Ships of the Line... I spent a few weeks on one of these things and there was no females on board and there was no problems... other than being soldiers on a Navy Boat...

Response by PO1 Cliff Heath made Oct 12 at 2016 12:33 PM

2016-10-12T12:33:07-04:00

Embarrassing for the Navy but I am not surprised, you have young personnel who lack judgement "obviously" in a very confined and time extended space. There were bound to be problems, especially at the beginning of the integration programs for all co-ed restructuring I think. When I was in females were only allowed to serve on Tenders, glad as hell I never had too, not saying they can't do the job, but this is still "NEW NAVY" as I see it. Living conditions on board CG'S, DDG'S,all ships for that matter are tight make, it's a blueprint for trouble.

Response by LT Michaline Schalton made Oct 12 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-10-12T13:27:56-04:00

If sailors are hiding cameras to take pictures of female officers in undress, where else are they hiding cameras? And to whom are they giving/selling the images? This is not only a sexual assault problem, but it's a severe security problem as well.

Response by LT Michael Watson made Oct 12 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-10-12T13:33:02-04:00

Unfortunately, we probably are surprised because we expected better. This has been a. Loses community and the transition will not go along without some major issues. It will not be a sterile environment such as the corporate world where such issues are dealt with very quickly, some of which will be that in the corporate world they can just tap into the pipeline for another actor to do the job that understands the behavior expectations. Submarine service is a highly skilled and demanding training/performance environment, where there are not an endless supply of bright, young MBA clones.

Not making any excuses, and the expectations are clearly set. The punishment ant behavior must be made meaningful and consistently applied, no exceptions.

Response by LT Bob McFarland DC USNR (Ret'd) made Oct 12 at 2016 2:26 PM

2016-10-12T14:26:47-04:00

Bob J.Mc Farland LT DC USNR (Ret'd)

We should not be surprised by any healthy young male's actions towards women on board Navy ships. In the first place, the Navy made the biggest mistake of their entire history by allowing women to serve on ships with young, healthy men, whose testosterone levels are the highest they will be in their entire lives. It is only normal for healthy, young males to want to physically mate up with young healthy women. It happens everywhere that men and women live and work closely together. If you want to remove this problem aboard U. S. Navy ships, leave the women on shore. At least the men on shore have a much larger choice and aren't forced physically and emotionally to take advantage of the women, like the troublesome conditions on board ship.

Enough said on that subject.

Bob J. Mc Farland LT DC USNR (Ret'd)

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-10-12T14:29:53-04:00

1/ This does not surprise me at all. Military is comprised of many young personnel, who are sexually prime. Many of them will do stupid things. I do not condone the behavior but I am not surprised.
3/ We have to remind our Sailors not to objectify a person. Unless he or she gives permission to share his/her personal photos, we cannot share their photos. Our Sailors must have respect for other personal lives. Everyone is responsible to fix this problem, which is another form of sexual violation and hazing.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-10-12T15:59:07-04:00

Yes, I was shocked that the crewmen betrayed a shipmate... those women were trusted to command the operations of their boat while the CO slept, but treated as objects by people who they would have faced fire and flooding with. Disgusting! My crew at least had the class to never let me know if they disrespected me that much.

Near as I can tell it was isolated to the one crew, in that one division... really it was a bad bunch that forgot these women earned the same fish they did, and were worthy of respect for that if nothing else.

Most boats removed the access and conducted "really people?" training. Does this fix the problem? Not in all cases, but it at least puts those on the boarder on notice. Disrespect your peers or officers in such way and get discharged/go to military prison.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-10-12T15:59:00-04:00

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Oct 12 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-10-12T16:49:39-04:00

Surprised: No same shit happened when they allowed women on Combat ships in the early 90's. It needs to be cracked down on right away to keep it from getting worse.

Response by CWO2 Richard Rose made Oct 12 at 2016 7:45 PM

2016-10-12T19:45:41-04:00

I have been on the retired list for 21 years now, but my wife is a Commander in the Navy Reserve. So, I have remained up to date with the Navy and subsequent changes affecting the service. I am a former police officer and was a trained Sexual Assault Victim Advocate. There should be no difference in expected conduct by sailors and officers. We knew back in the 1980s that we would no longer be able to man our shipsin the future with all male crews. A sailor is a sailor and is subject to the UCMJ. Sexual Harassment training has been mandatory since Tail-Hook. Zero Tolerance is the only acceptable response to such conduct. 45 years ago if an enlisted sailor had obtained photographs of an officer that sailor would have been prosecuted to the full extent of the UCMJ at a Courts Martial. There would have been brig time.It's all about respect, discipline, and command involvement. Too often Commanding Officers and senior enlisted leaders careers have been destroyed by inappropriate relationships. Leaders from E-4 to 0-10 know the rules and it is their duty to ensure that everyone is treated with dignity.

Response by PO1 Charles Babcock made Oct 12 at 2016 8:12 PM

2016-10-12T20:12:40-04:00

As a sub vet from the '80's, my first question is WTF are they doing with a camera on a submarine. Virtually everything around you is classified at least confidential except maybe your bunk and the galley stove. Am i surprised that the boys were peeping on the girls? not particularly. Should the boy's been taking video/pictures of the girls? read the first line of my comment again. If they are willing and able to use camera's to video shipmates (male or female) WTF else might they be taking video's of and showing to whom?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2016 8:52 PM

2016-10-12T20:52:22-04:00

Unfortunately this behavior does not shock me at all. We are living in a society that has seen several states outlaw females from wearing leggings in school as they have been determined to be a "distraction" for boys. Instead of us as parents teaching all of our children to treat each other with dignity and respect. Our puritan ways when it comes to nudity are not helping us raise young men the right way. I hope that those involved are punished to the maximum allowed under the UCMJ!!

Response by PO1 Kevin Arnold made Oct 13 at 2016 12:17 AM

2016-10-13T00:17:46-04:00

Unfortunately, male submariners can be very childish. Also rember that most are single and can be young as 18 or 19 years old. Everything is well pretty close onboard and we'll nature can happen after seeing the same woman for 6 months. You stand watch, train, eat, sleep around them, do drills, clean, and spend more time with them then your own family. In fact you would have to put into each submariners mind to treat each other like family. So you need to get the crew together and say that we are a family of sorts in that you need to treat each other with respect. Yes it will be hard listening to a female officer giving out orders or direction but you have to respect their rank. If they are earned their dolphins like everyone else then they should get the same respect. It it going to be interesting with them getting rid of job titles. A crew operates better when they know what each one does. So now they will say hey Petty Officer what tyoe school did you come from. Only the Administration Office would know only because of their orders of new people. But now you wouldn't have Yeoman anymore so who would know, no more detailer either but that is another discussion all togther.

YN1 (SS) Arnold, Kevin Retired.

Response by LCDR Bruce Sheppard made Oct 13 at 2016 6:57 AM

2016-10-13T06:57:29-04:00

you seem to be assuming that this sad policy will never be reversed. it's obvious that, for the men at least, having to LIVE in close quarters with the opposite sex presents an additional stress in an already stressful environment. and to what end?

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 13 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-10-13T08:49:23-04:00

Surprised? No.
Disappointed? Yes.

Response by CPO Nate S. made Oct 13 at 2016 5:15 PM

2016-10-13T17:15:49-04:00

This is not acceptable!

We should keep in mind the various formerly all male communities will be undergoing changes as women are increasingly integrated into these areas of service. Also, keep in mind that behaviors and attitudes stem both from the bottom up (what people's upbringing provides) and the top down (what they seem to be told or are shown by example is OK). In either case, the military has always been a microcosm of the good and bad in society in general. Also, keep in mind until society as a whole provides strong actions in society to curtail such behaviors from the carpet sweepers to the CEO level, we will continue to have such behaviors. Each each one of is accountable male and female to assuring proper behaviors are adhered to!

In his book, Its Your Ship, Captain Abrashoff points out the issue of personal responsibility and accountability from the deck seaman to his role as CO. We'd do well to help men and women officer and enlisted ask the simple question: What if this were their sister, mother, grandmother or wife that had been violated in this way. We have to look at ROOT CAUSE and not simply punish some. If we punish without getting at the root cause and helping young men and women to take a different approach, then punishment alone may drive others to even more negative behaviors.

As an HMC I have had to deal with these aftermaths and is not fun! We have to remember that everyone has a right to privacy and a violation of that privacy, how every small a space it comes in, is a violation of TRUST. Sailors on subs must trust each other, as sailors, marines, airmen and solders in any unit that is highly successful, must trust each other, otherwise unit cohesion goes into the toilet and a CO's ability to maintain HONOR in their command is - SHOT TO HELL!!!

Response by PO1 Daniel Ladd made Oct 13 at 2016 10:22 PM

2016-10-13T22:22:53-04:00

Having been in the Navy for 16+ years and stationed at Commands performing Diesel Electric and Nuclear Submarine repair, I was stationed with female Sailors all of my career. I have great respect for these women and would proudly serve with them again! Does it shock me to learn of young Sailors video recording female Officers in various stages of undress? Hell no! You are talking about junior Sailors who in some cases haven't even had a mature relationship with a woman, much less learned how to act like a mature male Sailor. This problem is not unique to the Silent Service or the Surface Fleet either. In 1980 my ship, the U.S.S. Ajax (AR-6) had four brand new female Ensigns recently report aboard just prior to me reporting aboard. The crew was for the most part very respectful to these Officers, with the occasional whispered remark between enlisted Sailors. I can't speak for the male Officers from the wardroom. One thing that our command had was training about "Women in the Navy". This was one on the first training courses which included sexual harassment, how to spot it, report it and avoid it. The crew was also reminded during training that these Officers were an essential part of our crew and would be training and working on qualifications just as their male counterparts would be. We were expected to act like mature Sailors and treat everyone with respect. In those days one could expect your Leading Chief Petty Officer or Leading Petty Officer to put the boot in your a$$ if they heard or saw you disrespecting a superior, especially a female Officer. I believe the "old ways" of discipline worked better when it came to correcting a problem at the lowest level unless it required the attention of the XO and CO to hold formal Non-Judicial Punishment for the offender(s).
I believe it is parents and societies responsibility to teach both boys and girls how they are expected to treat each other. When this doesn't happen, you end with youths making poor decisions both in the civilian world and the branches of the military.

Response by LCDR Bruce Sheppard made Oct 21 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-10-21T13:04:28-04:00

this is what our Liberal leaders do, they set a lofty goal that everyone can agree with, i.e. Equality, then they come up with the DUMBEST policies to get there. and how can you disagree with a policy like This one? are you against "Equality"? see how that works?

Response by PO3 William Durborow made Oct 30 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-10-30T00:20:24-04:00

I served in submarines when it was still all male. We did do several day cruises familiarizing Female Midshipmen with Submarines.
Being in such a confined and restricted space privacy is a rare comodity and needs to be respected. This closeness gave crew a feeling of comraderie and even family. I would never find it acceptable for a 'brother' to disrespect another member of the crew this way!
The Submarine Service has always maintained the highest standards and traditions of the Navy. ANYTHING and ANYONE that detracts from that needs to lose their dolphins!