Should we consider sending ROTC cadets to attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET (formerly Leadership Training Camp)?

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 19:43:55 -0400

Should ROTC cadets attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET (formerly Leadership Training Camp)?

What cadets are prepared for ROTC and the Army?

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Aug 10 at 2015 7:49 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 19:49:46 -0400

It was about 29 years ago that I was in ROTC, can you explain the difference?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 8:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:05:57 -0400

Yes.

IMO, if nothing else it will instill discipline and give "straight to commissioning" (non prior service) officers an idea of what the enlisted Soldiers go through.

Officers' decisions directly affect their troops. When an Officer has had their boots in the same place as their troops, it allows them to make better decisions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 8:06 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:06:12 -0400

No. All cadets benefit from the leadership training camp prior to graduation and commissioning. Some cadets might find BCT a valuable supplement for training to become an officer during or prior to enrollment in ROTC. The leadership training camp exposes college students to the Army without paying them as full members of the Army and develops important skills in college students for the next step in their careers as military officers. The cadets that are prepared for the ROTC and the Army are the cadets that seek to place the country above self, recognize and acknowledge that there are hostile forces and people that seek to malign the country and its people, and stay healthy and motivated to navigate through the military bureaucracy.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Aug 10 at 2015 8:17 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:17:22 -0400

Absolutely not. CIET, LTC, Basic Camp, whatever you call it is intended to teach different things. They are not interchangeable.

I think the more interesting question is should they ALSO attend BCT. I think the answer to that is no, for a couple of reasons - both practical. They are not going to be called on to use the same skills that a PVT-SPC will be called on to use, so it is a waste of resources to train them on same. Second is an issue of time - when would BCT be fit into their ROTC time? What would have to be dropped from academic life? And when? I could see a slight argument for it between HS Senior and Freshman year (much of BCT is foundational knowledge that it would benefit a 2LT to know...), but then what do you do for the 2 and 3 year cadets?

Response by COL Thomas F. made Aug 10 at 2015 8:17 PM

COL Thomas F. — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:17:37 -0400

Interesting. I was a prior service entry so I didn't do CIET. From my recollection of Basic Training ('89), I'm not sure if that's the proper place to bring in future officers, or those that want to be officers. BCT was a vicious grinder (IMHO) to see who wanted to be a Soldier and had the intestinal fortitude to make it through. Curious, do cadets need to be contracted at that time to go through CIET? If not, BCT is a big chunk of training dollars for 10 weeks of indoctrination that the cadet could then just shrug off ROTC after graduating. With the downsizing of the force, those BCT slots will be ever more valuable for enlisted recruits to keep the force strong. I say stick with CIET to see if they want to do it then muster them out if they feel its not right for them. To harsh?

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Aug 10 at 2015 8:25 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:25:15 -0400

COL Private RallyPoint Member, I agree with COL Vincent Stoneking. Absolutely not.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 8:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:43:37 -0400

I have a feeling they will be doing away with CIET soon. They're already pushing for all Cadets who don't go through the first two years of ROTC to attend BCT. They're also gearing ROTC Cadets towards service in the Guard/Reserve.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 8:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:51:00 -0400

I would say absolutely not. While some of the skills learned (marksmanship, d&c, and customs and courtesys) are sorely missing from some ROTC programs I can't see much benefit from the rest of the BCT experience. If they are going to go through BCT they might as well also go to OCS and just do the full package. ROTC is a unique experience that aims to create well rounded leaders for our military, similarly but different from the academies, BCT cannot mimic that. Additionally, I believe the BCT exempts them from the first two years of ROTC which I would argue are two of the most formative to creating an officer who it's not only a leader, the goals of years three and four, but also a good follower.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 9:04 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:04:03 -0400

I actually like that idea. I think it would be a great experience. Not only would they learn the basics of the Army but they would also have to interact with soldiers and have to work with others without using their rank.

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 9:04 PM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:04:18 -0400

I attended ROTC basic camp which is a 6 week booked down BCT with more emphasis on leadership. I thought it was very helpful but IOBC and ranger school were what taught me how to be a good LT. I think all of ROTC is just designed to make sure you have the potential to serve as an officer , not to teach you how to be one.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 10 at 2015 9:08 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:08:45 -0400

If that's the case then should they make direct commissions do the same? At least going through ROTC (if the program is still run the same) you get a taste of military life through 4 years of training. Doctors and lawyers and other professionals that obtain direct commissions and attend a "welcome to the military" course may not have any military experience. It's sort of like saying the inventory control manager at a warehouse has to know how to drive a forklift to do his job correctly. COL Vincent Stoneking hit it out of the park on his response.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Aug 10 at 2015 10:30 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:30:20 -0400

No. I do not believe that BCT makes better cadets because it does not focus on leader development. It is focused on making civilians into Soldiers. A cadet that has been to BCT will have some different experiences than a cadet like me who came right out of high school to college. But those experiences do not necessarily translate into leadership. While CIET has taken the place of the Leader Training Course and incorporates many of the same things, ultimately all contracted basic course cadets will go and MSIIIs will serve as squad leaders before they start CLC. So CIET and BCT have two different missions and outcomes.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 11:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 23:00:27 -0400

Some do; cadets who are already in the Reserves and had basic training as an enlisted person are excused from CIET (formerly basic camp and Leadership Training Camp) and first 2 years but do go to LDAC/Warrior Leader Course (Formerly Advanced Camp) as all cadets to. I don't think they should make basic training nor the first camp mandatory to all cadets who do the full 4 years of ROTC classes or who get equiv credit for it. The main reason is that it would cost more and require more manpower at Fort Knox, Some cadre members need to remain on campus for recruiting and other maintenance tasks. It also might be a disincentive to some who do not want to give up 2 summers. Instead, require several leadership training weekends for MS1s 2s and 3s as prep for LDAC. They can be FTXs as most units already do as well as some overnight (if facilities exist) garrison leadership activities such as drill, practice teaching classes, working on how to write and present FRAGOs/OPORDS, group teambuilding activities, rapelling, PT, barracks procedure (ie how to make a rack), and maintaining weapons, equipment. (In addition to weekly leadership labs) I discovered that the more difficult part of the camp was not the tactical stuff but the administrative leadership stuff. When I went to Advanced Camp years ago, I found I was not adequately prepared for that part as I thought the tactical stuff was my weaker area; but found the tactical stuff easier) Just some of my thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 11:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 23:05:19 -0400

BCT... give them a taste of what its like in the enlisted side

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 11:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 23:39:03 -0400

Sir,
I think we would be money ahead going this route. Instead of going to "LTC" as it was called in my ROTC days, I would support sending all Cadets to BCT like OCS candidates. As someone who attended BCT and was an SMP member until commissioning, I regularly found ROTC frustrating. Many of my peers lacked even basic Soldier skills or discipline. The upperclassmen were expected to teach these things, but typically had not been instructed properly themselves. While I don't think BCT is the silver bullet to fix that, it would be a step in the right direction. It would also eliminate unnecessary Cadre and infrastructure that could be better used elsewhere.

The only way for it to be feasible would be requiring a contract prior to attendance, but that's not anything new. I think BCT would be a good "gut check" as well. Soldiers deserve good leaders. If they can't handle BCT, it pains me to think how they would handle combat.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 3:21 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 03:21:51 -0400

Yes I believe ROTC cadets should attend BCT instead of this new CIET thing. Money and logistics aside (that is a whole monster in itself) giving cadets the opportunity to learn real basic soldier skills from some of the best subject matter experts around (Drill Sergeants) would be invaluable for their growth and developments as leaders. That being said, it should be a training experience identical to that gone though by every enlisted soldier not a dumbed down cadet version. I understand that cadets are not privates, but I think there is some merit in a new 2LT going to their first unit with just a little taste of what it is like being that 'private' at the very bottom of the totem pole - "you cannot lead until you learn to follow."

I think if it were to happen cadets should be intermixed throughout normal BCT Companies and be forced to, or given the opportunity to, work with their junior enlisted counterparts who they will be asked to lead very soon. Though BCT is no a physical or mental gauntlet, I believe it marks a right of passage that every soldier - regardless of rank - would be better served by going to and completing.

*note: I am assuming LTC Rossenberger is referring to this new thing Cadet Command is having MSIs go to which is another LDAC-type thing in between a cadet's Freshman and Sophomore year. I am in no way saying that BCT should replace the "Advanced Camp' that currently takes place between a cadet's Junior and Senior year.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 8:45 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:45:26 -0400

The truth is, they should attend both. The first two years of ROTC (MS1 and MS 2) should incorporate all training tasks in BCT, integrated with Fundemental Officer Leadership training. Anyone who wishes to join ROTC within 2 years of graduation, should go to BCT to 'catch up.'

The problem is, the MS1 and MS2 years have gotten more 'civilianized' over the years, to avoid culture class with each educational institution.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 10:38 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:38:08 -0400

Interesting discussion, but for future ROTC cadets entering ROTC program for MSIII year with the ultimate goal of becoming a commissioned officer, CIET/LTC is much more beneficial than BCT. LTC was a good program when I went through (Summer 2011). It covered all the basic soldiering skills (basic rifle marksmanship, TLPs, squad tactics, CWST, customs and courtesies, confidence course, and D&C) in addition to leadership dimensions which are essential for the foundation of the modern professional Soldier and future leader. Not sure about the current CIET, but its predecessor had DIs who demanded discipline from each cadet and weren't afraid to use corrective training methods. Overall, it was a solid program that prepared me for MSIII year and was a "crash course" to LDAC, not to mention the full-time tuition scholarship incentive. Just my $.02.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 1:31 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:31:02 -0400

No, simply because the ROTC CIET is oriented towards the ROTC commissioning program. Army BCT is oriented towards enlisted service. That being said if the cadet is prior enlisted BCT and their enlisted experience inform their training as a cadet and eventual service as an officer. I was prior service when I attended ROTC as a 4 year scholarship cadet and my enlisted experience certainly helped me to be a better cadet and officer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 2:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:00:54 -0400

I taught ROTC for nine years as a contractor and this question comes up a lot, even before CC added CIET. However the question is moot. TRADOC does not have the capacity to put another five to six thousand soldiers through BCT every summer.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 2:02 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:02:49 -0400

Agree. I'm surprised ROTC cadets don't already attend BCT. BCT would provide a solid base of experience to build from.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 3:18 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:18:34 -0400

No I don't believe that incoming Cadets should attend BCT. I myself am a graduate of LTC (Leaders Training Camp) and I found it to be a very educational course that was completely voluntarily.

If you send Cadets to BCT it wouldn't give them the option upon completion the decide "Hey, maybe this whole Army thing isn't for me". LTC does give these prospective cadets that option without signing a contract.

I believe Cadet Command is doing a excellent job giving these prospective cadets a taste of what the Army is like and allowing them to make their own decision based on whether or not being in the Army is their best choice.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 4:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:11:05 -0400

I am prior service and think that Cadets should attend BCT. I believe that you should be knowledgeable and familiar with those that you are leading. I feel like the Army would greatly benefit. Just my thoughts though.

Response by Cadet SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 4:49 PM

Cadet SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:49:24 -0400

So this is an interesting debate that, as an MSIII cadet cadre for CIET, I've had with my fellow cadre both cadet and real army. Though it would seem obvious that Basic would be a good choice for cadets to attend but you have to look deeper into the objectives and limitations of the ROTC program. ROTC is a pre-commissioning program, which means it exists to develop cadets into 2LTs, so the requirements of participants is different from enlistees. We are trying to develop our leadership abilities which would necessitate that we understand the level 1 tasks taught at basic. However most cadets who attend CIET (or when it used to be LTC) are still civilians, not even having signed a contract to join ROTC so there are limitations and it is also intended to give them a taste of what the Army is like without going FR. This is unlike Academy Cadets who have madde a commitment to serve. Next, and most importantly, cadets are not privates and should be trained differently because of this fact. Army leaders must be able to think critically and make decisions which is different from what the private is being trained to do. Therefore training must be different and foster this kind of thinking. Lastly, CIET/LTC exists to prepare cadets for CLC (formerly LDAC) in which leadership is further developed and evaluated. That being the case the roots of what is important at CLC must be taught at CIET.

Now I have yet to go through it, but I imagine BOLC-B goes into more detail about working in an Army environment that privates would learn at BCT so there isn't anything missed. I did howevver find value in my fellow cadets at CLC that had prior service and had been through BCT. They make great officers and add to the diversity of experience of the officer corps.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 5:07 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:07:28 -0400

Good question sir,
As a prior enlisted I will say that there is no need for cadets to attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET. I enjoyed my basic training time way back in 1999 but truth to be told, all I learned there was how to shoot, sustain 'torture' :) and physical pain and yes drill and ceremony. Nothing I learned in basic training prepared me to be a leader the additional NCOES courses did prep to be a leader. Unless the idea is to have the future Officers smoked, I do not see any relevance whatsoever for the cadets to attend BCT

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 7:43 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 19:43:28 -0400

So Gentlemen, From the bottom looking up; I can't see how BCT would teach that young officer anything about leading that it truly needs to know. But, I am not sure the current path is doing much either. Craig Mullaney's " The Unforgiving Minute" touches on this a little. And, he is a West Point guy.

I don't know about other Branches, but as I have seen, the combat arms basic courses are about the only Basic courses that are getting a good portion of leadership focus across. The Signal Corp is actively training Officers to fail, in so much that we have called it the SOB Course.

With that being said, the Branch schools are the ones that should be responsible of drilling leadership into these officers. That is when it really becomes real for these young men and women.
I would like it if all officers attended a baseline of training prior to, or after basic course. That way, as the senior NCO in the company, I know the basic skill sets taught to every single one of my new officers. As it is now, it is hit or miss what the officer was taught prior to going to Basic Course.

I would do the same to SSGs too. That way I know every SSG has a baseline of skill sets. As it is now, the Army is not "equally yoked" with its ALC and SLC courses.

This is my dream, I highly doubt the army will move in this direction.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2015 3:53 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 03:53:14 -0400

Yes, BCT would be a fine substitute for CIET and save the Army money. There is a large expenditure of resources, both dollars, personnel, and training areas to execute CIET each summer. These assets would be better focused on the post MSIII-year advanced camp, which is the culminating event of cadet training. Half of CIET cadets never contract resulting in a zero-return on the investment for the Army. The skills that are required to start the MSIII year are a basic understanding of Customs and Courtesies, Drill and Ceremony, and Basic Rifle Marksmanship. All of the land navigation training, small unit tactics training and leadership education that they receive during their MSIII year will determine their success at advanced camp. Their growth and mentorship during the MSIV year will determine how they start out as a 2nd Lieutenant.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2015 11:18 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:18:34 -0400

Why not do both?

BCT is basic indoctrination and would make them better leaders by helping them understand what their Soldiers go through and provide a shared experience.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2015 1:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:26:26 -0400

Yes - although I would say that at least LTC (or whatever it is called now) should be mandatory. Just 4 years of ROTC is not necessarily enough to develop dsicipline, professionalism, and the military mindset. Although this is highly dependent on the individual program and staff. BCT or LTC can help to minimize this variation by giving all cadets a baseline of the Army culture. Another argument formandatory BCT attendence is that it lessens the cultural gaps between leaders and soldiers. I have overheard remarks from soldiers along the lines of "officer so-and-so never went to basic, so he/she wouldn't know." There is something to be said of shared experiences that can solidify a team. To those that state BCT does not teach the same skills, my only counter argument is that OCS candidates and prior enlisted were still required to attend, so why not cadets? (Typed on my phone, so I apologize for formatting)

Response by Cadet CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2015 4:37 PM

Cadet CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:37:52 -0400

I was enlisted and received a G2G scholarship almost 3 years ago. I currently am entering my MS3 year. It is extremely hard to build and work on leadership skills when most of your time is spent teaching new cadets basic soldier skills.

I feel that you are a soldier first and a officer second. To train to be an officer the basic soldier skills are required.

I believe that BCT can do that and will allow ROTC to focus on leadership and not basic skills

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2015 5:20 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:20:18 -0400

Absolutely!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 1:23 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:23:28 -0400

I think the fact that we are having this discussion proves the program, not process, is broken. I attended Marine Corps boot camp, not sure this makes me a better officer/leader. I do know that I hear terrible things about ROTC and have seen some questionable products.

Response by 1SG Christopher Turk made Oct 14 at 2017 1:39 PM

1SG Christopher Turk — Sat, 14 Oct 2017 13:39:11 -0400

You cannot be a good leader until you can be a good follower. I believe sending Cadets through basic training would not only provide them with much needed training, but would also give the future Army leaders the experience of what their Soldiers go through and are taught.

Response by MAJ JohnK Wright, V made Aug 4 at 2018 2:48 PM

MAJ JohnK Wright, V — Sat, 04 Aug 2018 14:48:09 -0400

I went to Fort Knox for Basic ROTC Camp (July 1976). We had DIs and were in a basic training Battalion and treated the same as E1s except we were all College Juniors. Once ROTC Basic Camp was over, the unit and DIs went back to training E1s.

The next year (1977) I went to Fort Riley for our ROTC Advanced Camp. I remembered that I was tired for first in the morning land nav group in the morning and also in the afternoon.

I have no idea of what LTC is, but there were a lot of ROTC Cadre from all the different Colleges and Universities in our Region who also helped with training/admin/support.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Mar 14 at 2019 10:43 PM

LTC James McElreath — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 22:43:48 -0400

Col,
The nice thing about basic training is your future 2LT's upon graduation will be pushing troops around in their units and have had no direct contact with the soldiers. One reason I left AD was that one gets tired of being messed with by a snot nosed 2LT trying to make a name for them selves. Their training should be mixed in with regular soldiers going through. This way the cadet get to experience basic as a recruit arriving to the reception point.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Mar 15 at 2019 6:13 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Fri, 15 Mar 2019 06:13:48 -0400

I would!