Should we have enemy weapons to train with?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 01:27:06 -0500

So recently I was putting together training and realized that most soldiers don't have much if any familiarity with enemy weapons systems. From everything I've heard, back in the 80's units had access to AKs RPKs PKMs and RPGs. Not only that but there was also ammunition allotted for said weapons systems to train on yearly. When did we get away from this and do you think we should start again?

Response by SFC George Smith made Feb 5 at 2017 1:31 AM

SFC George Smith — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 01:31:34 -0500

Yea at least for a working Knowledge so if Needed they can Clear and make safe the weapons taken and If in an emergency you would have the Ability to use their weapons against the Bad Guys...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2017 1:44 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 01:44:27 -0500

I think there should be, especially right before a deployment if you know what weapons will likely be used in the region.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Feb 5 at 2017 2:12 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 02:12:15 -0500

Oh Hell Yeah, You get Stuck in Geronimo's Territory You Better Know How to Use His Equipment.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 5 at 2017 7:10 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:10:20 -0500

this is a good news bad news story.

Your Enemy, and allies both use the same weapons.....
So good news is, you will have access to those weapons when deployed., cross training is common, if not the actual mission.

Bad news, sometimes the good guys turn out to be the bad guys. . So always have three more good guys then the number of "others" when training, working, sleeping, eating....

Response by GySgt Melissa Gravila made Feb 5 at 2017 7:38 AM

GySgt Melissa Gravila — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:38:51 -0500

IMO there is no such thing as too much TraiNing, be prepared for any possible scenerio...failure to plan is planning to fail.

Response by SFC Jerry Humphries made Feb 5 at 2017 9:33 AM

SFC Jerry Humphries — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 09:33:54 -0500

Yes , yes and again Yes. It couldn't make more sense to be familiar with weapons one might find on on a battlefield. It could be the difference in turning around a bad situation.

Response by SPC Ronald Borders made Feb 5 at 2017 9:50 AM

SPC Ronald Borders — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 09:50:22 -0500

I agree, but I was in the Army back in the late 80's and early 90's and the only people that played with combloc weapons was Special Forces.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Feb 5 at 2017 11:20 AM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 11:20:11 -0500

Before my deployment, we had some folks from Century International come by with a ton of foreign weapons such as full auto AKs, PKMs, RPKs, and rubber ducky RPG7s. We were given enough ammo to familiar fire with each weapon. And we also had the chance to go downrange in a dugout trench so we could hear what each sounded like being fired around us. This training proved very useful on our deployment as the AAF in our area were more inclined to fight than to plant IEDs and run. This also showed us how to clear any weapons we confiscated, which was quite a bit.

Our instructor also wanted to pass along to us not to be afraid of the weapon and its capabilities, but to respect it instead.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Feb 5 at 2017 11:30 AM

SGT Philip Roncari — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 11:30:33 -0500

For my part very easy question to answer ,their AKs worked all the time ,our M16s not so much!

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Feb 5 at 2017 12:19 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 12:19:23 -0500

Part of Red Flag in the 70s was a hands on trip through displays of Soviet weapons. Very informative for aircrews then and don't see how that's changed since then.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 5 at 2017 4:10 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 16:10:04 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, when I attended the SF weapons course in 1970, we had the opportunity to familiarize with virtually every rifle, submachine gun, etc., current and obsolete, foreign and domestic, that was available at the time. I thought it was important then and I think it's important now. GySgt Melissa Gravila SP5 Mark Kuzinski

Response by SGT Matthew S. made Feb 5 at 2017 5:04 PM

SGT Matthew S. — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 17:04:21 -0500

Logistics and available time aside, yes. It never hurts to at least know how to clear something you may confiscate, and is always nice to have a rough "hands on" idea of the capabilities & limitations of what you may run up against

Response by SPC Johnney Abbott made Feb 5 at 2017 7:31 PM

SPC Johnney Abbott — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 19:31:03 -0500

Yes totally. Anything can happen. If a situation happens and all you have if enemy weapons you're going to wish you knew how to use multiple systems

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2017 11:59 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 11:59:38 -0500

For combat arms, yes, most definitely. For others, as time and unit funds allow. As all MOS' *can* come in contact with the bad guys, it's a valuable skill. But the historical incidents of that happening are rare.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 7 at 2017 12:03 AM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 00:03:19 -0500

I have done so more than once, so of course.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Feb 7 at 2017 10:47 AM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:47:20 -0500

You can get all the foreign weapons training you need at the 18 Bravo course. You would have to be a student of course.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2017 11:30 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:30:37 -0500

I would advise a hands on training for all service members, maybe not tied into basic but possibly as a pre-mobilization training to familiarize SMs on the common weapon systems of the area they are entering.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2017 12:11 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 12:11:00 -0500

I'd love for us to get around to this. But first we'd need to actually have enough time at the range to get familiar with our own weapons before we can think about trying to gain familiarity with our enemy's arms.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2017 7:39 AM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 07:39:29 -0500

There are weapons in the US arsenal that are unfamiliar to our own troops. but yes, because Marines are all basic Riflemen but other branches should be familiar based on their MOS. they become weapons of opportunity. The round, the firing, field stripping. It can be done by "class" of weapon. Most are M-16 based and that would be a class.

Response by Andy Van Der Plaats made Feb 8 at 2017 8:29 AM

Andy Van Der Plaats — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:29:31 -0500

I'm glad to see the question being raised, but also saddened at the same time to hear that such training is no longer happening, or only authorized for selected units. Knowledge is power, or so the saying goes. I would also suggest that units, especially those being sent into dangerous situations also undergo more than the typically lame force on force training. Unless they're exposed to 'extreme stress' and conditioned to deal with it, there's no assurance they'll be able to perform when it necessary. Shirts and skins type training doesn't cut it.

Response by Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin made Feb 8 at 2017 9:34 AM

Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 09:34:49 -0500

I don't know about everyone, but I did get basic weapon familiarization training with a couple of AKs and a a PKM as I prepared to become a military adviser to the Afghan Air Force. We also got familiarization training for the M-249 and M-60. We didn't qualify on them, only the M-4 and M-9. Throughout my year in Afghanistan we also had the option to fire a few rounds during our quarterly range time too. I think anyone going into a combat location should at the minimum receive familiarization training, so they at least know how to use the weapons we might come across.

Response by CPT Geoffrey Lea made Feb 8 at 2017 10:11 AM

CPT Geoffrey Lea — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 10:11:06 -0500

I don't recall ever having the opportunity to operate enemy weapons back in the 80s. We did see lots of film and sometimes see displays of enemy weapons. I will also say this, many of the films greatly exaggerated the capabilities of the Russian weapon systems (tanks come to mind). I think we should make sure we have the money to adequately train with our own stuff first. Then if possible, enemy weapons.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 8 at 2017 2:07 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 14:07:00 -0500

We had rubber ducks for the enemy weapons so Soldiers could learn to identify them and report them in their SALUTE reports and Engineer Recon reports.
Live fire training chances were few and far between and the only 2 occasions I remember in 30 years for us came when we did a mission in Bosnia at Uglivik with a Russian Airborne Engineer PLT and they let us fire and in Iraq when we were training Iraqi Engineers.
Bosnia was simply luck, and in Iraq it was needed since the IA Soldiers were integrated and it was important to know if the weapons were cleared and functioning well. Also occasionally you'd find some as part of a cache, so they would need to be cleared for safety.
So in my opinion it's always good to know more than less, but weather you would ever get to apply the training is random and that again increases or decreases depending on your MOS and mission . Weapons and ammo training cost money so other than everyone being able to properly ID and potentially clear enemy weapons I'm not sure the value of everyone being able engage targets and fire them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2017 9:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:35:43 -0500

Get with your Schools NCO. There is a course for this offered at Ft. Bragg.

Response by SPC Tom Walsh made Feb 8 at 2017 10:33 PM

SPC Tom Walsh — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 22:33:46 -0500

I think this kind of training is vital for combat arms units and the forward support units that directly accompany them. As well as MP companies. These are the units where US Service Members are most likely to encounter foreign weapons on the battlefield. All personnel in these positions need to be able to safely handle these weapons in the all-too-likely event they do encounter them in the field.
A basic "Foreign Weapons Handling Safety" class would be extremely useful as well as easy to add to all service's basic training. If nothing else, it could be done using real weapons and dummy ammo in a classroom environment. A more advanced version would be taught at Combat Arms Advanced schools or at unit level using personnel who are already proficient with the foreign weapons available.

Response by SGT Sunny Lalingua made Feb 9 at 2017 8:22 AM

SGT Sunny Lalingua — Thu, 09 Feb 2017 08:22:12 -0500

SF, Seals, Rangers. These and other similar units are cross/trained in the weapons you listed among others. The question to ask, in my opinion, is, can we spend more time and money training units to be tactically and technically proficient, to have more adept marksmanship, better weapons familiarity with those weapons assigned through the TOE?

Response by SGT Ron Egan made Feb 10 at 2017 10:35 PM

SGT Ron Egan — Fri, 10 Feb 2017 22:35:03 -0500

When I was stationed in Berlin,75-77, Deputy Brigade Commander Richard T. Katter was famous for asking during his inspections, "tell me everything you know about the Soviet counter part to your personal weapon, or crew served weapon, radio if you were a RTO, or what ever.

Response by LTC Ken Bowers made Feb 16 at 2017 12:33 PM

LTC Ken Bowers — Thu, 16 Feb 2017 12:33:32 -0500

SSG Canfield you are correct. In 1985 I attended the WARSAW PACT weapons course. I believe it was part of the 7th ATC, and was housed on Grafenwoehr Training Area AKA "Graf". Students were formally enrolled and were provided accommodations for the week long course. Instruction included familiarity with Vehicles, Small Arms, and mines. We received thorough instruction on AK-47, RPK MG, and RPG-7 and RPG-16. There was also plenty of live fire. in using those weapons I developed a healthy respect for their capabilities especially the RPG-7. I found the RPK and RPG-7 to be easy to use and accurate. I would hope that course is still operating, but it probably went the way of the "M151 1/4 ton Trk" when the Iron Curtain came down. So for a while we had different enemies, but they all used soviet weapons. I'm sure that every division in the Army has plenty of captured enemy equipment from Iraq and Afghanistan. Good luck getting that started. There is a definite need for it, and the training value will remain long after you walk off the range!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2018 11:28 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:28:59 -0400

Soldier don't even know how to properly use our own weapon system. So lets set this one as priority one before moving into others.