Signal Corps: What happened?

2014-10-16T01:55:32-04:00

Let me take a moment to say that I only see my sphere and scope of the Army. I am sure there are other units out there that are still knowledgeable and have exceptional signal leaders. I also want to mention that in no way is this a direct reflection on units as a whole including my own.
If you’re not Signal (specifically 25N, 25Q & possibly 25S, 25B) you might not understand what I am saying.

Anyone who was in during MSE should distinctly remember ARTEP (Army Training and Evaluation Program). When WIN-T replaced MSE that standard that so many of us knew went away. There are justifiable reasons for this; speed of change, complexity of equipment and new MTOE standards. I understand why it was never redone to work with WIN-T.

What I do not understand is why the very fundamentals of our jobs have been forgotten. How no one understands the value of crew drills (or even knows what it is), cross training, proper grounding procedures, site security & defense, equipment preparation, convoy operations, site briefs, night time operations, tactical vs. strategic site layouts, HCLOS is never used, no networking standards are ever used, priorities of work, PACE plans, tactical discipline, jumping, recovery operations, what the DC power cable is and why you need it (completely serious) and maintenance (for instance know why keeping your generator level is important) to just get started.

I was on a Special Duty assignment for 6 years and left big Army when WIN-T was just being implemented. So I am out of the “know” so to speak as to what happened during this time frame. I have been seeing it lately from a position where I oversee many different teams and units.

There are so many other things such as the “tricks of the trade” that are known by older guys like duct taping tent stakes to a wooden sledge hammer to prevent your sledge from breaking.

I have been talking with many of my peers over the last month and even some Warrants and Officers. This appears to be larger than just what I see in my area of influence, and there are others who have went a step farther than me and actually acted on this topic such as this website: http://www.signal-chief.com. There Chief Troy discusses broader issues and tries to present units with lessons learned prior to deploying. While he does a remarkable job and has exceptional insight, I want NCOs to tell me what happened to where the rubber meets the road: signal team leaders.

This concerns me greatly because quite frankly this is what I was raised on and it’s what I know. If we have to do another invasion like OIF1, where we are not on a FOB for the entire deployment and the hazards are more than the occasional mortar round then NCOs I’ll be blunt.

It’s not going to turn out well.

Our chiefs are going to lose their #### on NCOs and Soldiers, NCOs will be getting relief of causes, and whole units will probably get bad images.

I don’t blame these young soldiers, and I really don’t want to blame the NCOs (and sometimes can’t because they themselves were never properly trained).

So help me out, what’s your take on this.

Response by SFC Peter Cyprian made Nov 29 at 2014 1:36 AM

2014-11-29T01:36:22-05:00

SSG Harvey, I totally get what you are saying. I watched it happening before my very eyes just before I retired. I honestly believe it started near the end of MSE and DGM. We evolved from packet switching to having routers in our shelters.....routers that we were not allowed to even touch- even though it was a key component of our shelter! Yeah, we could put the HSMUX and HSMUX 2 cards in and they would even let us do the jumpers, but that router was OFF LIMITS. As a CCNA I was outraged at this. As MSE and DGM went away and the Win-T came into its own, this mentality increased. I used to have a label for this- the "mouse clicker and button pusher syndrome". All the troops knew is that "on this screen I click here, then push this button". Did they know wtf they just did? Nope. Did they do it right? Yes, but if you have no clue WHAT you just did (besides the physical action of clicking and pushing), how effective and technically proficient are you?? I would correct this anytime I ran across it, but I felt like the guy dog paddling against the raging current. Do the troops at least know the fundamentals of electronics? Networking? GROUNDING (great point btw)? Do they know the difference between a power ground and a signal ground? Do they understand what the PEP and the SEP are grounded separately? I could go on all night but I think you "get it" and are on the same page. It needs to be fixed- that's a fact.

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Feb 3 at 2015 5:54 PM

2015-02-03T17:54:33-05:00

Wow. Still decoding and taking that in. Wow.

Probably a good thing I got out a while back. I would have a lot of trouble holding my tongue.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 9 at 2015 11:33 PM

2015-02-09T23:33:52-05:00

I had an SF signal detachment (two platoons) in the '73-'74 timeframe. We were still using the obsolete but reliable AN/GRC-9 (the old Angry 9). In many instances, voice transmissions were ruled out by distance, and SF communicators relied on continuous wave radio operation, using International Morse Code. The CW key was clipped to the operator's thigh and power was provided by a hand cranked generator. (Internet photo)

SFC Steven Harvey SFC John Gates SFC Peter Cyprian and SSG Private RallyPoint Member Sgt Tom Cunnally
SFC Robert Giffin, thought this might interest you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 2:42 PM

2015-04-20T14:42:14-04:00

SFC Steven Harvey :

I don't know if this is relevant. I'm a medic, and never worked with Signal.

However, the situation you're describing was rampant in previous units. My first unit, I almost can't blame the leaders, even. With a 1 year turnover, It's hard to get soldiers trained right and reap the benefits of that training. I extended a year, so I could help pass on the knowledge (extended to be a flight-medic. Didn't happen. Long irrelevant story) As soon as a soldier knew what they were doing (if they learned at all), they were out-processing. My latest unit was a guard unit, and I don't know what the solution there would be either, because we only had solid training two days out of the month. Both units were full of great and not so great leaders, so I can't be sure if that's even the problem. The only thing that saved me from these symptoms (if it did at all) was my love fro cross-training. If you need someone to get vehicles ready or take inventory properly or set up their freakin' OE-254 (skills I assumed everyone needed to know), they could always grab me or one of the 10 year SGTs.

Anyway, i'm not familiar with all the same acronyms, but am I way off-base here? Is this even a judgement a SPC can fairly make? Don't judge my units. Just a thought.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 6:56 PM

2015-04-20T18:56:31-04:00

The ARTEP was replaced by the STP.

Here's mine, for example: https://armypubs.us.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_b/pdf/stp11_25u14.pdf

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-04-23T16:05:17-04:00

We lost many of those skills because that responsibility was taken out of our hands, or we simply didn't allocate the time to continue to teach it. As the war progressed, technology upgrades poured in, and as the theater developed we lost sight of a lot of the basics (not just signal). Home station train ups became so time sensitive that it seemed like leader development (which comes back to most of the OP's issues) took a back seat to reset, upgrade, train enough for NTC and deploy again. It seemed like you had just enough time to do it once and move on to the next event. In theater there was a contractor to install your equipment for you, fix your broken toys, and commercial telecomm and shore power gradually replaced tactical equipment.

I was an MSE platoon leader in 2004 in Iraq. My battalion commander regularly came around and played stump the chump with the PLs to spot check they were doing things like routine maintenance and understood the basics. I needed an extra kick in the pants since I went from the schoolhouse to leading one of his platoons without being around for the pre-deployment training.

Now that deployments have slowed down quite a bit and our equipment is becoming more "army green" we're relearning how to do it all ourselves again. The contract maintenance is gone and we have more than enough time for leaders to crawl and walk through every step of the process. There's definitely now no excuse for not doing.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 4:17 PM

2015-04-23T16:17:14-04:00

I will say that many NCOs do not know about or use the tools that have been given to them... such as ATN.. which breaks down a training plan and go/no go assessment sheets.. but instead of asking what's wrong? Let's ask what are we doing to fix it? I was taught to use these tools and pass the information along.. and most senior leaders know of these tools but never look at it. They just know it's there! Call over to Signal Towers and find our what is available for you troops such as LWNS and ATN and then actually set substantial amount of time to conduct crew drills on the training calendar. AATW!!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 5:22 PM

2015-04-23T17:22:27-04:00

This is simple to answer really its like everything else I loved in the Arny that is slowly being taken away, like smoking soldiers, remeidal pt, even swearing really. The army used to be some very exceptional people once we allowed to many politicians to make decisions, and officers in to NCO business, we lost our hold, and now everything has to be softer, gentler and more politically correct, this is the military as a whole now really. I am a signal ncoic, the soldiers I have straight out of school are being told they will learn it all at their units, when they get to me I don't have equipment to train them on as we do not have funding to get it, and even more so its not on our MTOW so we aren't even allowed to have it. The next big killer is budget cuts, we used to have field training that's gone done to just sgts time training. I can only teach so much powerpoint, with out the hands on they will never learn. As a common ncoic I am lost how am I supposed to train soldiers on equipment they haven't seen and won't see until they are down range?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 5:50 PM

2015-04-23T17:50:28-04:00

I can speak for my last unit and assure you what you speak of is not the "standard" everywhere. I think it's like any organization, there is good and bad. I had a fantastic Platoon Sergeant who taught all of us just the fundamentals that you speak of. We even used those skills in FTXs as well as while we were deployed. It is the reason why the NCO is the backbone of the Army, because how we train our soldiers, is how they will train theirs. Leadership is the key to this problem.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-04-23T19:20:23-04:00

My unit has made a soecific effort to get back/keep these tyoe of training and working mentalities! Someone made the comment that they have pulled so much from our sphere and I completely agree. Personally I think it is just another cancer of the contractor warfare mindset of Afghanistan.
When my Guard unit returned we immediatly started working our crew drills etc and it was tortuous. I can definately see how units can completely lose their compentancies.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 8:37 PM

2015-04-23T20:37:45-04:00

Sounds like the problem begins with Fort Gordon -- what are they teaching our newest Soldiers? What is going on with the NCO courses?

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-04-23T21:53:40-04:00

You obviously aren't in the right signal unit. I'm a 25N and have been cross trained in 25Q, and 25S. The equipment is similar. You have different breakdowns in equipment and roles and capabilities. We even have current simulators that are up to date from the signal corps school house. Maybe I got lucky with my unit. But don't ever bash the state of units competencies / readiness/ capabilities based on what you have seen. I was a diffrent MOS on active duty we had a joint forces competition that was graded and judged. Signal core should get on board. You are an NCO make a change in the way your unit trains. It all starts with you and attitude.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-04-23T22:03:36-04:00

SSG Harvey, I would agree that this varies from unit to unit. I would also argue that the shortcomings you speak of are due to a lack of leadership. I am not saying that these leaders are not capable of being quality leaders in many other areas, but taking readiness and the ability to perform assigned task lightly is a recipe for failure. We are also in a down-sizing Army with an increased mission, so cross training is always important. I have always put large time and effort in ensuring everyone could do all of their assigned task and additional contingency tasks that I and others could think of. We then spent any extra training time on cross training. First priority is ensuring all know their job, and this is crucial before they can teach someone else. In the Signal world you have to be efficient and you have to know how to troubleshoot, and I cannot afford to rely on 1 or 2 people who know it all while the rest do not. The basic skills like grounding, generator ops etc. are all part of the overall training plan

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 10:59 PM

2015-04-23T22:59:01-04:00

I'm currently serving as an ESB Company Commander. My prior enlisted time was as a 25F working in EMS, SEN, NC, and LENs during my time. I've run through the ARTEP for just about everything MSE. Like you I was out of the loop when WIN-T came in (branch detailed FA)

We have allowed those skills to atrophy and while I've hypothesized a great deal about how it happened, I have found that I've been more successful refocussing on the training required to close the knowledge gaps that exist.

Sometimes it's better to have problems you can see and work on, rather than not have problems at all.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 12:39 AM

2015-04-24T00:39:32-04:00

SFC Steven Harvey. I gather that signals people are no longer trained to cobble up a bare bones low power CW transmitter and/or receiver from whatever spare parts might be picked up discretely from the indigenous population and/or scavenged from other high frequency equipment? What are you guys gonna do when the big EMP hits . . . and the only thing left are valves/tubes? Do signals guys still know how to operate anything like a simple suitcase mechanical burst radio? Do you even know what to so with BFO, PLATE, and LOADING? Warmest Regards, Sandy

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 8:25 AM

2015-04-24T08:25:54-04:00

I am currently near the end of my assignment with a NATO signal battalion. Your fears and worries is not just in the army, or even the United States military. Many of the service members I work with only have base knowledge, in their field of expertise, But almost none on the equipment itself. The biggest issue that I've seen in both NATO and regular army is that a good majority of our jobs are contracted out to third party civilian sectors. We have equipment that we have been trained on, but aren't allowed to put into use for training because there isn't a civilian available that day/week/month/year. I think the other issue is that we cannot seem to trade out our lack or technical training with army training. Unfortunately, signal units get the bottom of the barrel when it comes to training. Back in normal Army land, we had a hard time getting slots for things like, FTX, ranges, almost any form of combat training. I get that we are signal but if we can't train on signal, we need to be training army style.

There are a thousand issues in the signal community and really the army as well. We as NCOs are told to enforce standards that the army seems to be softening up on as of late. I see from the lowest ranking PVT to Sr. NCOs (even SGMs) lack the discipline, military bearing, and conforming to standards that is vital to a sustainable force. If soldiers don't have enough discipline to not walk and talk on their cell phones (something really simple like that), then (in my opinion) they will begin to lack in other areas of there job as well. These soldiers are getting promoted to the Sr. ranks (enlisted as well as officer) and they seem to just want to enforce the standards that they wish to follow.

Response by SPC Louis Rushano made Apr 24 at 2015 9:23 AM

2015-04-24T09:23:45-04:00

As a younger Signal guy a lot of what happened is easy to see, I got in the army around 07' so more towards the middle of OEF. I got in my unit only to look around and see how many people were getting out many of them with 3+ deployments done, much of them lower enlisted or sgt level.
Some were out due to burn out whether that be the families or their own doing back to back deployments, numerous guys had injuries (physical or mental like ptsd) or many had gotten job offers to be military contractors for way more money then the army would pay for several years in one year.
As a war/conflict goes on standards ALWAYS drop, all the training or equipment will not get you more bodies to operate said positions or equipment. Like the saying goes Quality or Quantity, well the military as a whole always picks Quantity then Quality when the peace time rolls in. With quantity you have to train like a cookie cutter basically then throw them to the deep end and let the units do the rest, they just didn't know/care units were not doing it down the line. Leadership is highly responsible but its also leaderships leadership that is even more so, contractors became so normal (prob. because high up leadership they knew) since the lower enlisted became below the standard "cookie cut" trained they needed contractors (former military or collage educated in communications) to be the backbone holding up the corpse called the signal corp. I have used equipment like tropo, stt, jnn, los, hclos, and prob stuff I should have not even touched because I was not mos trained for it but the need we so great they let me anyways.......*cough...the military intels phoenix...cough*

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 10:02 AM

2015-04-24T10:02:11-04:00

All great points SSG Harvey...good to see you here by the way! I will say this...the photo you included here is of my old battalion, the 86th ESB. I just left there October of 2014 and I do have to say that growing up in MSE it was truly frustrating to see those same issues when I initially got assigned there in July of 2010. Over the course of my tour there the leadership and the techs got in the weeds and actually started training ALL of the troops. From the Section Chiefs down to the team members. With the 86th taking on the responsibility of supporting NIE, those issues slowly began to disappear. I will say that when I left, the companies that were responsible for supporting NIE were quite proficient, not only with the basic tasks like grounding, but the technical side as well. It takes involvement from the top down to correct this issue meaning that us "old dogs" have to get in the weeds and fix those issues. In the end...the rewards we reap are quite bountiful!

Response by 1SG Mat Gothunts made Apr 24 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-04-24T11:20:44-04:00

Its the same in all MOS, soldiers stopped doing basic soldier tasks and focused in on one dimension of the war. I sat on promotion boards and askef real basic stuff a private should know, sgt and SSG were dumbfounded because they came in after 911...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 1:14 PM

2015-04-24T13:14:44-04:00

BTW folks. Atrophied skills aren't new to the Army. We'd do well to look at the challenge one of our sister branches had to deal with a few years back and the lessons learned from how they addressed it. Three BCT commanders lost their commands to tell it like it is.

Here's the document that started a firestorm of change: http://www.npr.org/documents/2008/may/artillerywhitepaper.pdf

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-04-24T13:45:15-04:00

Don't forget about your 25U! But I think you're spot on in regards to the fundamentals being forgotten. In the three units I've been in this far we hardly cross trained because there's "no time" to do so yet we should know a little about every signal MOS and piece of equipment. NCOs just don't stress that even when the soldiers do.

Response by CPL Charles Gale made Apr 26 at 2015 12:28 PM

2015-04-26T12:28:02-04:00

I can only speak for the 11th Theater Tactical Signal Brigade, I was stationed in Fort Huachuca for 5 year honestly I find it very difficult to remember times when I wasn't doing crew drill or FTX. I know that we had our own school "Thunderbird University" which pretty much covered need for the 25B, 25L, 25N, 25P, 25Q, 25S, 25T, and 25W. You can see that the university did not cover every signal MOS but even when we deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan our university came with us. I myself was a 25U which is known as the Jack of all trade and a expert of none. I felt a little out of place (there was only two of us) being in a signal brigade but the knowledge that I learned is invaluable.

My first duty station in German with 1st Armored Division was completely different. As a PVT/E2 I was the only commo guy for my company. Fresh out of AIT and responsible for about 80 radios, 35 vehicular intercommunication systems, 40 computers, 10 printers, oh yeah and my XO's coffee maker. We had a ton of FTXs and vehicle qualification exercises but no crew drills at least for the signal guys with in the squadron (we had Air/Cav too...). During my time there it was learn as you go.

Response by SP5 David Lunn made Apr 27 at 2015 5:42 PM

2015-04-27T17:42:29-04:00

I understand what you are saying and saw it happen with my own eyes. I caught the very end of MSE. I spent some field problems in a V3 shelter. I was an E4 and saw MSE fade away as WIN-T rolled in. I was trained for 25B on the CPN then later as a 25Q we were expected to operate the STT. As I moved from SPC to SGT I tried to enforce the standards from MSE that had been instilled in me. Standards like grounding and leveling the generator. Shift change briefs, tactical setup and drills. The Soldiers around me looked at me like I was crazy. My leadership looked at me like I was crazy. The problem is multifaceted. You have senior nco's undermining junior nco's for various reasons, including lack of trust and as a way to maintain authority. You have new Soldiers that don't know the standard but are indignant of the jr. nco 's authority. Most times they can't challenge the senior nco (unless they are a weak nco) so they challenge the jr. They want to do things their way all the time. You try to discipline them but without senior backing you are stuck. Some of your Soldiers get in Army knowing more than you do. WIN-T with civilian equipment opened that door. It was possible to have a Soldier that worked on cisco routers and switches on the outside and simply knew more then their leadership. This undermines the leadership if the Soldier is not keen to follow orders and wants to take advantage of what they know in a negative undisciplined way. Signal units by choice of Big Army were downsized and put at the mercy of combat arms units. As attached Soldiers on a CPN, my team chief had very little power. My signal section chief from the combat arms unit had little power. My SIGO had little power. It was a shit storm to say the least. I went to ALC at Ft. Gordon thinking I would finally get the training I needed. No luck. Will we train on Tropo? Not allowed. Will we train on the new STT. STT is down with a battery issue. Will we train on HCLOS? We have a computer simulator. We did train on networks and ip schemes. We cut grass everyday, performed barracks and exterior maintenance and performed any other detail we were assigned. This was the emphasis. I believe all these factors have lead to the disarray the Signal Corp is now in.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 28 at 2015 9:58 PM

2015-04-28T21:58:16-04:00

SFC Steven Harvey My SOBC class was the last to learn Tri-TAC and RATT rigs the first to learn how to run Radio Access Units (RAUs) in MSE in 1990. This early familiarity with Cellular technology helped me land where I am today. The downside is when the commercial side advances the technology faster than the military, the military will convert to get the benefit of the newest technology.

Commercialization of the skills needed to run the SNAPs, conversion of military to civilian, customers and equipment with dependence on bandwidth and high-speed connections. It will take another crisis in a remote country with NO infrastructure for us to re-learn our lessons.

With so much to learn about the new technology, leadership is making choices. It is doubtful an E-4 today could do the same as what I expected, they are not trained in it. Most I see can barely make a Radio call or control a Tactical net.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Apr 29 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-04-29T09:15:42-04:00

SFC Steven Harvey, just saw this today!

http://www.army.mil/article/147247/Fort_Huachuca_bids_farewell_to_Morse_code_training/

Fort Huachuca bids farewell to Morse code training

It is the end of an era on Fort Huachuca. The last manual Morse code class began on the base, April 27. In the future, the course will be taught by the Air Force on Goodfellow Air Force Base, Texas.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-05-06T15:04:28-04:00

SSG, your post made me appreciate even more soldiers and leadership in my unit. We are an understrength signal company in a sustainment brigade but time and time again the fundamentals are stressed each drill weekend and at AT. I am the only 25N in the unit, but I have a reliable group of Bravos and Uniforms I can count on to cover JNN ops. As far as field craft goes we have a broad spectrum of experience between deployment and combat MOS prior service (I am prior active 13F) and a tight-knit group of NCOs to train younger soldiers on the things you mentioned (priority of work, defensive positions, etc.).
I came into the TNARNG in 2008 after a ten-year break in service, so when I see a signal E-6 who has never seen a shelter half I have to chuckle. When I came out of active duty, signal was SINCGARS and COMSEC, now it's CISCO and laptops, but I digress... :-)
My point is, the signal "schoolhouse" is teaching kids in 4-5 months what it takes similar civilian occupations years to learn, AND it is an extremely perishable skillset. Consider also, the type of recruit attracted to the Signal world, many of them spent their formative years prior to enlistment behind a keyboard or gamepad. Once they are spit out of the system and arrive at their unit, Active, NG or Reserve, it is the NCOs time to take them under a wing and teach them about being a soldier, passing on knowledge that will keep them alive, or at least not looking like a soup sandwich.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 3:28 PM

2015-05-13T15:28:44-04:00

It hasn't all changed there are some units that still do cross-training and crew drills. But my honest opinion comes from when the transition from MSE to WIN-T happened we added a lot more civilians to the mix and now some units are scared to do certain things like that because we no longer fix our own equipment anymore. I'm currently deployed and work in a TIB (Tactical Control Facility in a Box) and we can't even access our own routers anymore and now have civilians that do all of our routing and switching. Even before the deployment I was a Baseband Crew chief and the first thing I was told was anything happens call General Dynamics don't fix it yourself. We lost track of the fix it yourself and focused more on getting ready to deploy and doing the bare minimum to train soldiers on equipment. Focusing on the NCOs and what happened with that is a lot of them don't know the equipment. We're so spread out as a branch you'll be a private in an infantry or artillery unit as a November working on radios then get promoted to SGT and go to a Signal unit in charge of a JNN or HECLOS and have no idea how to work the equipment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 4:40 AM

2015-05-21T04:40:52-04:00

Is there anyway I can ask my platoon sgt about doing this or should I just keep my mouth shut. All of what you stated would benefit us so much. Site security, crew drills, convoys but we don't do that anymore sadly..

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 2:31 PM

2015-05-21T14:31:07-04:00

Enter the JNN during 3ID deployment to Iraq. It was the first iteration and had a few bugs. IP telephony was new to the Army and not in AIT yet as this was not a program of record.
We go through more iterations culminating in Lot8/9. During that turbulence we had varying equipment models and configurations (layer 3 switch at the access case or not? How do we use the Content Engine? How to use Promina between JNNs on HCLOS over Serial?

During this era, you either got it or you didn't and we promoted people regardless as we had to fight a war while increasing the number of Brigades.
Enter WIN-T with TMs, a schoolhouse teaching material and experience at war. It got a bit better but the OPTEMPO and personnel turnover compounded with the lack of command emphasis on Signal training (in some/most units) due to the dissolution of the SIG BNs at the Divisions created a perfect storm.

Lets AAR as to how we succeeded in the mission: Some people stepped up and learned. Warrants, high speed NCOs and Soldiers and even some Officers get face time on the system and made it happen. Upper echelons published configurations, TTPs and provided in-theater equipment.

How we could have done better: Done more home station training. Convinced our leaders that we need time on our systems. Going to the field with the Brigade is not training for Signal as we are providing a service. The exception is when there is a published PACE plan that the Brigade can use to continue the fight when we are learning.

What you can do individually: Use http://www.signal-chief.com and check out the resources available on Milsuite, s6.army.mil and other collaboration sites.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Aug 26 at 2015 8:02 PM

2015-08-26T20:02:36-04:00

This problem has been around for a long time. I even saw this back in about 1984 with the deployable TACCS system, since most of the initial training was conducted with the TDA/Stand-Alone version of the TACCS system. How many individuals trained on the system could connect them through the variety of methods that they could be networked through, to include connecting two of them through AN/PRC-77 radios or MSEs when they became available? Very few. In the units that I was in, I was probably the only individual that had done it, and I was self taught and started with OJT as a 36K and by the time that I retired I was fully qualified as a 31V/U, which if I understand correctly is a 25U. Initially I was a line Infantryman, that was trained by an old school SF communicator, and in my later years moved into Operations at Battalion and Brigade level and was the primary computer system SME.

Part of the problem today is that a number of individuals that are now in the Cyber Warfare Branch want to forget the past and though they profess to be the group for defense and offensive operations, they only want to concentrate on offensive actions. Their problem is that before and now they have actually failed at what should be their primary function and that is defense, and in this case defense actually goes back to the basics but they tend to ignore that or say that it is not their job or function. I am a little miffed in this area because here on RallyPoint, I had this discussion with a newly minted 17C that had previously been I believe a 35Q ASI E6 and before that a 25U, and he tried to tell me that I did not know what I was talking about. What is funny about this is that I worked with the TACCS SPBS-R, TACCS SIDPERS, the ULLS S-4 system, and worked with the initial developers of the WIN-T system.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-08-27T22:29:02-04:00

You said signal and leaders in the same sentence and put them together...having spent my entire time in the military after 9/11 in the Signal Corps after joining at the age of 35, it's a shame that the leaders of signal see only the letters after people's names, mandatory training that HAS to take place, training that's done with a fire hose rather than understanding and of course the ever present PMCS and inventory...when training at the school house as an officer, very little if any time is devoted to actually how to train a unit, platoon, section, team or individual but a whole lot on how to CYA...your BOLC infantry experience is supposed to get you to understand how to train, I suppose....your powerpoint presentation is supposed to impress and inspire your subordinates to do their job...how is a 2LT going out to a battalion as their S6 (an O3 slot) going to know how to train that group? How is that 2LT going to convince that XO/S3/BC that it's vitally important to train on Tactical Comms when we utilize our Strategic network both at home and deployed? Hell it's hard enough for that BDE comms commander sitting at some echelon below BDE to know how to do that. Why on earth would I worry about WIN-T when I never use it here stateside? What unit commander is going to "waste" time training that asset? Let alone a whole company of signal that provides dial-up speed for 5 people and links to BDE at a speed of 256up and 256down or at best 4Mb over a LOS system? That 2LT is sunk...that O3 is sunk if they don't have the cohones to push back...take that 2LT out of the S6 slot and into a platoon to provide that key leadership experience with their level of I give a $%^t reduced...it's no wonder that units are having trouble getting trained. I've seen E8's at BDE that last set up VRC-12's now in charge of directing the IOM of WIN-T...that's not just a failure for the E8, they got set up for failure by the Officer Corps. In the active component on deployment, the 2LT/1LT can get rotated out after 30 days to go to CCC while the E5's and below sit in a tent tyring to keep the links together...inspirational I'm sure. If the 2LT's are not highly motivated to look out for their troops and not willing to push back on that field grade for training time, you get what you've seen...then those beaten up, abused untrained 2LT's grow into field grades with all the bad habits and attitudes instilled in them by getting pushed around and no training. And I'm sorry but not all of us get to live our lives in a Signal Battalion or BDE...generally the mission still happens because some non-comm or junior enlisted is high speed enough to get everyone's job done while working 18 hour days...and for this they get an AAM if they get recognized at all...the leaders you look for go where the action is, Combat Arms/MP etc....they do not go to Signal unless they are interested in CCNA, CCNP, NET+, CISSP, A+ etc to appear after their name, get out, and get bankrolled by some private entity...so really those guys are looking out for themselves not some 25Q that doesn't have a HCLOS to work on...Leadership is in short supply in the Signal world, it starts with the Officer Corps, infects the Senior NCO's and destroys the junior enlisted. Do this long enough, and the echelon you're at gets broken. If you find one worth a $%^t, hang on to them, follow them from post to post (if active) and tell all the Junior Officers to look at how that one does it....once the Officer Corps fixes their $%^t, we'll get to worry about the NCO's and from there the Junior Enlisted. Just my two cents...rant over.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 9:19 AM

2015-11-18T09:19:44-05:00

My personal opinion is the reason for this loss of this knowledge comes from lack of proper mentorship. I have been in low optempo units and very high optempo units, and I can say in all honesty my leaders failed in the sense of mentoring the individuals trained to take their place. I have witness MSG slave driving their teams shops, or organizations to perform without taking the time to coach or teach what was expected from us. I watched them groom their 2ICs or ncos to be just like them thus growing more ncos that do not know how to mentor properly/effectively.

Many of my peers are severely lacking in general signal knowledge, and I.T certifications doesn't mean anything when you are deploying with our multitudes of different systems we deploy with.

Also our NCOES Schools are failing in teaching critical knowledge to our perspective cmfs as well in all areas. Like what happened to teaching hand receipt discipline? I just watched some of the most suspect transactions happen over handreciept transfers from ncos that just don't know what is required. Some didn't even know what a TM was?

If you are senior in your perspective signal mos take a couple of ncos and mentor them. Once you retire that information is gone, and that's how history repeats itself.

sorry I am just ranting at this point.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2015 8:57 AM

2015-11-20T08:57:24-05:00

I believe you have gleaned on an issue that occurs in practically every MOS in the Army. I wonder how much can be rectified by better protecting training time and placing a higher emphasis on hip-pocket training/concurrent training at the Squad level? Or is it more an issue of not knowing what you don't know?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2016 9:20 PM

2016-10-01T21:20:09-04:00

SSG,

The change came about long before the introduction of WIN-T. It actually started with the Army's decision to dismantle Signal Battalions within Divisions in favor of the modularity of Unit of Action/Execution. These later became the Brigade Combat Teams we know today. As a result, the Signaleer's training focus was pushed to the back burner in favor of the maneuver unit commander's focus. This focus was usually centered on the certification of combat arms skills. Heck, you cannot fault them, that was their METL focus. With Signal Battalions, you had a Signal chain of command that had a METL focused around Signal proficiency, and all of their funds and focus were committed to achieving this task. I reminisce on the days of getting my site's LOS shots in in under 20 Minutes, and my 39D up and passing traffic in under 30. Whether we used Thursday's SGT Time or monthly team/PLT training, we trained to be the best at our craft. The thought of playing second fiddle to any other unit was just plain blasphemy. Our input in the training schedule aligned with the Brigade, Battalion and Company's METL so our training was never stepped on. The Army CIO/G6 has realized the mess caused by dismantling Signal Battalions and are currently comparing the effects of reintroducing a Signal Battalion or a larger G6/S6 back into the Division formations. one thing for certain, when the smoke clears and the testing ends, we must have a change in the BCT commander's focus. We must increase their understanding that Signal is one of his greatest weapon systems. Signal assets and personnel must be maintained and properly trained in order to be truly beneficial. Too often Commanders and XOs cringe at the thought of spending $50K on one circuit card, much less repairing an entire system. Our equipment cost big $$$$, and the battlefield is NOW digitized so BCS and MCS that give the commander that common operation picture and instant notification/visualization is a must have.

As an NCO, you must actively explore ways to train your Soldiers. No one knows their weaknesses better than you. We are working on reintroducing ARTEP standards for Signal MOSs, but until that comes into fruition, I need my NCOs to fight to protect their training and employ opportunity/hip pocket training to maximize Soldier proficiency.

Response by SPC John McDuffie made Oct 1 at 2016 10:17 PM

2016-10-01T22:17:12-04:00

I personally think the Army has failed itself. When I would go to a promotion board the focus was of questions were things that I could easily Google; questions like, "What are the pillars of ACS, what are the MOP levels, or what is the effective range of an M16?". None of these questions pertained to my MOS nor would they help me develop future soldiers. I think the Army needs to adapt and become like the other services where a soldier needs to learn their job in order to get promoted. The high tempo of the war has brought up a generation of leaders that aren't technical experts, but general experts which has corroded the "expert" branches. I had an NCOIC of a Commo Shop that was a 15 year E-6 who had never stepped foot outside of a training room or supply shop. The Army had failed him as a leader and me as a soldier.