Since when is "jungle expert" an authorized tab?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:02:23 -0400

I'm seeing some Rangers here with that tab under their ranger tab. Unfortunately they walked off before I could engage them and ask. <div><br></div><div>The amount of tabs and right shoulder sleeve identifications that have been created at will over the last few years never ceases to amaze me. Is this authorized?</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not saying this as a jerk but rather a general discussion question. If we can create entirely new uniform items why not start creating our own uniforms in general. See what I'm saying?</div><div><br></div><div>Also it may actually allow commanders to do this but I'm missing it in the regulation. I certainly don't know everything so I might be missing it. </div>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 8:11 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:11:45 -0400

Maybe it's unit policy to identify Jungle Warfare Instructors.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 15 at 2014 8:38 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:38:04 -0400

My guess would be along the lines of the EOD and CBRN patches. I don't recall seeing those in 670-1 either but I may be mistaken. But it may be a local Command policy like SSG Cedeno stated.

For example, I work in the hospital and wear a badge. There's no badge in 670-1 or how to wear it, but there is a Commander's policy on how to do that. Once I leave the hospital I'm supposed to take it off. (but I don't because it makes me feel important) That may be the same reason those jungle rangers are doing it. LOL

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 15 at 2014 9:19 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 21:19:55 -0400

Local policy can dictate certain additions, for example, as an SGL at PLDC at Ft. Stewart, we wore black pistol belts with a 3rd ID NCOA sticker on the buckle and a 550-cord braided whistle attached to the breast pocket button and the top button hole on our BDUs. Same with those of us in cavalry units could wear Stetsons and spurs on Fridays within certain areas of post, mainly your unit footprint. I have never seen the Jungle Expert tab, so can not speak on it, but I was unaware of any additional tabs being authorized for wear other than the newish Sapper tab.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 10:05 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:05:47 -0400

Found this on Wiki. The "JUNGLE EXPERT" tab was often worn by graduates of the Jungle Operations Training Center until the school became inactive in 1999. The tab may have been official until 1982. The tab was never recognized army wide, but enjoyed a quasi-official status much like that of the Cavalry Stetson. That is, the tab was often authorized to be worn by graduates of the school by local commanders and by members of the United States Army South specifically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabs_of_the_United_States_Army

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 5:39 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 05:39:57 -0400

SFC,

The jungle expert tab was brought back by the 25th ID here in Hawaii within the past 8 months. They have conducted 1 or 2 Jungle Classes since then and I know another SFC that went through it and currently wears the tab.

V/R,
Edwin J. Velazquez
SPC, USA

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 16 at 2014 8:11 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:11:32 -0400

Here's some interesting info. Of special note is the Calvary Scout Stetson. I guess it's the same thinking.

Obsolete and Unofficial[edit]

Several tabs are widely worn unofficially by members of the US Army. Often these tabs are worn on the underside of pocket flaps so as not to violate uniform regulations. Such tabs also appear on stickers, shirts, hats, etc. These include tabs containing the words "SNIPER", "AIR ASSAULT", "FISTER", "SCOUT", and "RECON". The "SAPPER" tab was an unofficial tab until 2004 when it became an official army tab.

The "JUNGLE EXPERT" tab was often worn by graduates of the Jungle Operations Training Center until the school became inactive in 1999. The tab may have been official until 1982. The tab was never recognized army wide, but enjoyed a quasi-official status much like that of the Cavalry Stetson. That is, the tab was often authorized to be worn by graduates of the school by local commanders and by members of the United States Army South specifically.

The "RECONDO" tab was often worn by graduates of a reconnaissance and infantry skills school that was terminated in the 1970s.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 3:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:56:38 -0400

IMO it's a similar situation to the Rams Head Badge worn by graduates of the AMWS, a NG school. Because of our proximity to the school we like to send soldiers when funding is available. When those graduates go back to their unit they are authorized to wear it (at least in our state), but when they go to the "big Army" schoolhouse for NCOES or on deployment it comes off.

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/amws/content/pdf/The%20History%20of%20the%20Rams%20Head%20Device.pdf

Unfortunately AR 670-1 doesn't directly address all forms of tab or brassard, and local commanders have to publish policies.

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Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 4:09 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 16:09:33 -0400

The "jungle expert" tab is authorized to wear, by order of the CG, while assigned to 25th ID after successful completion of the Jungle Operations Training Course. Once the SM leaves the Lightning Division, they will have to remove the tab.

What other tabs are you talking about? This is the first one that I know about that has been authorized for wear by a local commander.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Apr 17 at 2014 5:51 PM

SSG Genaro Negrete — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 17:51:50 -0400

You beat me to it SFC Jones. I was about to pose the same question. I guess it's one of those things where you can "add to" but not "take away". The two instances I've seen (arctic tabs in Alaska and jungle tabs in Hawaii) are only local command specific. I PCS'd to Ft. Hood and had to stow the arctic tab. Had to do the same when I went to ALC at Ft. Sam from Alaska. Even on TDY, I'm fairly certain that ranger shouldn't have been wearing the jungle tab.

Even so, I kind of like the identifying feature. The Army uniform seems to be all about standing out amongst your peers. Badges and tabs left and right!

Though in Alaska it served a more practical purpose. The tab producing course (Cold Weather Leaders Course) is designed for team and squad level leaders so that they can learn the arctic survival skills necessary to train in that environment and teach it to their soldiers. It allowed other soldiers (of any rank) to quickly identify SME's and fix issues with equipment and training methods before they lead to chilblain or frost bite or even over heating.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Apr 17 at 2014 6:02 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 18:02:17 -0400

My MI guys were all about their "PowerPoint" tabs along with some of the other staff folks. Most of them felt the "suck" of the TOC justified it. ;)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 6:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:59:11 -0400

SFC Swartz, here it is, direct from AR670-1:

22–12. Badges authorized for wear on Army uniforms

f. Tabs are authorized for wear on either a permanent or temporary basis.

(1) Permanent wear. Tabs indicating individual marksmanship or special skill are authorized for permanent wear.

The tabs authorized for permanent wear are: Sapper, Ranger, Special Forces, and President’s Hundred.

(2) Temporary wear. Other tabs are considered an integral part of the SSI and Soldiers are only authorized to wear them while assigned to the organization that prescribed wearing the SSI with the tab. Temporary tab examples include:

airborne, honor guard, mountain, and Pershing.

Response by SPC Steven M. made May 7 at 2014 8:01 PM

SPC Steven M. — Wed, 07 May 2014 20:01:49 -0400

THE ARMY JUST BOUGHT BACK JUNGLE SCHOOL AT YOUR BASE DUDE THATS WHY ITS A NEW THING JUST READ IT IN THE ARMY TIMES ITS A JOKKE - 70% PASSING RATE
http://www.armytimes.com/article/20140505/NEWS/305050061/Tropicaltraining

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 3:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 May 2014 15:09:34 -0400

I'm a senior instructor at JOTC. The current POI is not graded on a pass/fail basis. We provide one week (6 days) of Jungle skills which include: Jungle medical, patrolling techniques, waterborne operations, ground sign awareness, and rope assisted mobility. We provide the training to the units going through (BN level, with a one week offset between individual rifle companies). The 70% pass rate refers to the amount of injuries sustained. The terrain is very rugged and is something Soldiers are not used to operating in. While Hawaii doesn't represent the heat, flora and fauna as some jungles across the Pacific can provide, it does have a realistic view on the hazards associated with operating in a jungle environment. The training is less like a school and more like a training rotation.

Our cadre have been to many foreign jungle schools across the globe including Malaysia, Australia, Brunei, Thailand, and the Philippines and are continuously going to more.

As far as the Tab goes, it is division authorized much like the "Commando tab" of 10th mountain or the "Arctic Tab" im Alaska and only worn in 25th ID. If any questions about the training feel free to contact me to avoid speculation.

Response by SGT David Starr made May 23 at 2014 2:35 PM

SGT David Starr — Fri, 23 May 2014 14:35:23 -0400

I graduated from JOTC in 1987 part of the 3/87 Infantry Regiment before it was disbanded after the Gulf War. I went over the Air Force and my local Security Forces Commanders comments went like this "hell yeah you can wear it you earned it" So I guess its up to your Commander. :) It would be amazing if they started up the School again and wanted instructors sometimes DOD Schools get Civilian training like here at Fairchild for the SERE School. I'd volunteer to teach!. Former JOTC Graduate D. Starr

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2014 3:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:56:57 -0400

It is a tab that was brought back into training in May. While on my 2 week drill this year I was in the PX and picked up the ARMY TIMES and on the cover was the jungle expert course that is back in phase now. I do not know all of the specifics but I know it is a course though

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2014 6:30 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 18:30:36 -0400

I went through the course and wear it around. It is only authorized for wear around Oahu since it is still a 25th ID school. It was the CG's call.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 9 at 2014 10:24 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 10:24:50 -0400

There are only 4 tabs authorized for permanent wear:

1) Ranger
2) Speacial Forces
3) Sapper
4) President's 100

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 14 at 2014 2:42 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:42:55 -0400

I think it's authorized as local wear while assigned to the 25ID.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 14 at 2014 3:19 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:19:22 -0400

They closed down JOTC in 1999, and recently re-opened it, with the first class graduating in March or April. There was an Army Times article about it if anyone cares to look it up. The tab is part of the deal.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 18 at 2014 6:33 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Mon, 18 Aug 2014 06:33:57 -0400

It's just a 25th thing. 2nd AD wore their unit patch on their left breast pocket in accordance with Paton's wishes. I think the tab should stay in Hawaii and maybe Hondo where they are needed.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2014 11:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 23:28:20 -0400

As of a few weeks ago, even in HI, it isn't.

When they reconstituted the Jungle School, the CG here authorized it for wear for all SM's who completed the course as long as they wore it only on the island of Oahu.

When we were finishing the course a few weeks ago we were told they decided to do away with that. So now no one wears it.

While we were at the school, there were a few guys from TRADOC there assessing the school and building their own curriculum based on the current POI. Eventually, TRADOC will take it over and it will be an individual course rather than one attended by whole units. It may get approved to be an official ASI at that point, but like ARC and many other Army courses, it likely will still not have a tab. Just look at the four current authorized tabs- Sapper is the newest, and SLC has been around for ages. It finally became authorized in 2004.

Response by PFC Nason Herron made Nov 18 at 2015 9:49 AM

PFC Nason Herron — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:49:46 -0500

Spent 2 weeks at Ft. Sherman prior to going to Vietnam. I don't recall receiving any JOTC patch.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 11:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 23:13:08 -0400

Since CSA General Milley authorized it for wear yesterday.
Jungle Operations Training Center, Senior Instructor/Senior Medic

Response by Cpl Franchot Johnston made Nov 13 at 2016 6:27 PM

Cpl Franchot Johnston — Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:27:50 -0500

Went through JOTC Ft Sherman CZ in '74 with 3/2 Marines.
The USMC doesn't allow ANY patches or tabs or whatever on any uniform,
except para, scuba, and Presidential guard. Maybe the airdales get to wear pilot and crew badges.

Response by SPC Robert Treat made Aug 4 at 2017 5:34 PM

SPC Robert Treat — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 17:34:45 -0400

Does anyone know if there is a way to get a replacement cert. for the jungle expert school? I went through in '89, and my cert. has been lost over the years. Only thing I can think of, would be if someone could send me a copy of their cert via jpeg, then I could redo it with my info on it. Any ideas, thanks.

Response by SPC Todd Rhoades made Sep 1 at 2017 9:11 PM

SPC Todd Rhoades — Fri, 01 Sep 2017 21:11:24 -0400

Maybe it's me or my generation, but it's not about the dog and pony show, it's about the training and education received. SF and Ranger were the only tabs authorized in my day. Even though I am one of the original Mountain Sappers and many went through SLC, it wasn't about the tab, it was about being a more effective force. The Army wasn't about individuals, it was about high speed-low drag units. In my day anyway! Maybe that needs to be stressed more these days. An army of one is easily defeated.

Response by SPC Robert Coventry made Oct 20 at 2017 8:11 PM

SPC Robert Coventry — Fri, 20 Oct 2017 20:11:14 -0400

When I was in 1985 I was awarded a Jungle Expert Patch after being stationed in Panama for 6 months, we wore a subdued patch on our jungle fatigues and the one below that hung on your class A's in a plastic holder looked stupid

Response by SSG Daryl Spencer made Apr 7 at 2018 1:57 PM

SSG Daryl Spencer — Sat, 07 Apr 2018 13:57:43 -0400

If you went to the jungle warfare school in panama and your unit went to the school you can wear it I was in the 4bn 10 inf in panama 1981 to 1983

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 7 at 2018 8:12 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 07 Apr 2018 20:12:57 -0400

It was for years, but then they phased it out, when we gave Panama back.

Response by CPL Brian Prosser made May 7 at 2018 7:38 PM

CPL Brian Prosser — Mon, 07 May 2018 19:38:26 -0400

We had a Light Leaders Course out at East Range in the 90s but we didn't get a tab, a patch, or a ribbon. We did it just to prove we were that good at our jobs, just like EIB, RIP(I Think ya'll call it RASP), Ranger School, or any or high speed Infantry course

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 4:54 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:54:26 -0400

All I'm saying, is when it rains the entire course, morale in the course is low and wearing garrison boots in muddy gultches is a good way to bust ass with a 249

Response by SGT David Speck made Feb 7 at 2020 11:34 PM

SGT David Speck — Fri, 07 Feb 2020 23:34:04 -0500

When I was at the 101st (Aco 3/187 Inf Reg) in the early 80’s we were authorized to wear the Jungle Expert patch on the chest pocket of our jungle fatigues.