Sinking Standards And Indoctrination: A Veteran's View Of The College Experience

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:26:06 -0400

When I graduated high school I immediately enlisted in the military. After months completing OSUT at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and a brief vacation home for HRAP, I was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas. Over the next few years, my education would come in the form of deployments, field training exercises, structured self-development courses, and professional development schools. I wanted something more though. I looked forward to a time where my career would be at such an optempo as to allow for me to complete my formal civilian education. That time never came. Instead, I found myself medically retired at the age of twenty-four. After a brief stint of wallowing in my own self-pity, I decided to get my life back on track and, ten years after graduating high school, I found myself front and center in a college classroom.

I had previously imagined how college would be. I was never a great student in high school; more often than not, I was a slacker who managed to skate by with good test scores. In my head, I thought that, at best, I would be roughly a B student if I put some real effort into my work. Due to the VA educational benefits that I had earned, I did not have to split my time between working some part time job to pay the bills and use my spare time to complete schoolwork. No, I could completely dedicate myself to my studies. I soon found that my vision of what college would be was nothing close to the reality of it.

I soon found that I was not expected to put in the kind of effort that I had set out to do. Surrounded by hordes of young kids, ranging in ages between 18 and 22 mostly, I was easily one of the oldest people in each classroom. Most of the students didn’t do the assigned readings, turned in homework late, and scored terribly on midterms and finals; did they know something I didn’t? Yes, they did. It would seem that the American education system had morphed from a place to broaden one’s formal education and promote critical thinking to a daycare of sorts where these teenagers and early-twenty-somethings could prolong their childhoods for a few more years while the teachers, in what can only be rationalized as an effort to keep their jobs “useful”, tossed passing grades on to transcripts. Eventually, without learning how to even properly format a paper, these students would graduate with Bachelor’s Degrees in their various disciplines. This is not at all an exaggeration, sadly.

Just recently, I completed a condensed three credit hour course during the summer 2018 semester. I didn’t have to study, I didn’t open up the books after the first week, and I spent most of the lecture time arguing with the professor. I ended up with a final grade of over 99%. How did this happen? Well, because the course was simple to begin with. I was always going to get a low ‘A’, but the reason that it was nearly a perfect grade was because the professor continually added extra points to exams and assignments in order to ensure that every student received a passing grade. If this sounds asinine to you, it should. The idiotic professor’s disgusting and intellectually dishonest practice allowed me to receive a 121% on an exam just so a few more undeserving idiots could pass. This is what the American education system has become.

Now, I have spoken before about a professor that I have become quite close to; in fact, if it were not for our professional, student-teacher relationship, I may go as far as to say we were friends. She has not yet been taken in by this system of inflating grades to ensure the survival of her position, but even she has voiced how the standards that students are being held to are abysmal at best. Reading comprehension is non-existent, the ability to write a coherent paper of over a page and a half is rare, and it would seem that grades are seen, by students, as not earned by virtue of hard-work and demonstrated understanding but rather they are bought and paid for via their tuition. This may be a symptom of the rampant entitlement that seems to be almost ubiquitous amongst this up and coming generation. Sadly, I belong to this generation.

At the very same time that students are being shuffled through their university education, many professors take the opportunity to vomit their vile personal beliefs from the lectern. In the army we always joked about fighting communists as if it were a thing of the distant past, but it would seem alive and well. I never imagined having to defend the American way of life in a classroom and yet, time after time, I find myself defending the constitution, capitalism, and the rule of law from whole groups who believe that the founding fathers had it all wrong. If the fact that students were getting unearned diplomas was not enough to anger me, listening to students and professors preach the many blessings of communism surely did the trick.

After two more semesters I will graduate with my BA in English; I am on track to graduate with honors. I will be throwing my application for admission to a short list of institutions and I have no doubt that I will be allowed to attend one of them. I can only hope that graduate school will not be tainted with the same practices as undergrad.

If attending college has taught me one thing so far, it is that traditional, four year degrees should not be sought by everyone. In fact, I have become a firm believer in the value of technical schools and trades. Were it possible to go into my field, teaching, without a liberal arts degree, I would. What has become apparent is that the often spoken lie that one cannot be a success without a college degree has been espoused so many times that we all seem to believe it and that is sad. I have an entire group of very close friends who have never attended college, some of them dropped out of high school, and they are all on their way to making far more money in their careers than I can ever hope to make as a college English professor. Perhaps we would be better off if students understood the value of some of these careers or at least understood the necessity of hard work.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 29 at 2018 4:43 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:43:28 -0400

Congratulations on your endeavor to earn a degree. I went to college in the 90s and had to work hard to maintain a B average while I worked part time. Now participation equals passing grades? What is your major in and what was your MOS?

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jul 29 at 2018 4:50 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:50:44 -0400

I have often thought that I would have made so much more, gotten so much more, out of my college education had I served first. I was a very immature 17-year old when I entered college and frittered my time away, passing well enough on a minimum of effort. How much better might I have done if I had served first and matured. Well, to be fair, if I had served first, I most likely would never have earned rank and most likely would have been in trouble most of the time. Then, going to college later, had I matured, would have been in trouble in school among a bunch of immature 17-18 year olds as immature as I was at that age.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jul 29 at 2018 5:03 PM

LTC Kevin B. — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:03:26 -0400

My experience teaching in both the undergraduate and graduate levels, at five different universities (both public and private), stands in stark contrast to what you've articulated.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Jul 29 at 2018 5:15 PM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:15:51 -0400

I think it depends on the school (at least I hope so). The Virginia public universities are not yet giving away grades if my friends and neighbor's students are any indication. However, there are definitely some that are. As for Grad school, it depends on where you go and what your major is. Education seems to be a rubber stamp. Those degrees that require a state level exam, are not, because there is some accountability.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2018 5:33 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:33:17 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson I graduated from a very demanding high school in 1968. After I was discharged in 1972, I worked full time and went to school full time. The junior college and university that I graduated from were also demanding. I studied hard in college and saw many students fall by the wayside because they were there to party or were unprepared for college work.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Jul 29 at 2018 7:53 PM

SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 19:53:51 -0400

1. It sounds like you will be a good and interesting Professor.
2. Ask those people who believe in communism...if they have ever been or lived in a commie country? My guess is the answer is no.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jul 30 at 2018 4:11 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 04:11:03 -0400

Lucky for me I branched out of Liberal Arts in my Junior Year to Business Admin which is largely conservative and also more apolitical than Liberal Arts which tends to be leaning heavily towards the Left. My memories of UW in the late 80's was the nice mini-Intifada they held in the Student Union including Reservist IDF Officers that should have behaved better, though I understand their emotional need to defend the homeland even if they are overseas in the United States.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Jul 30 at 2018 10:01 AM

SFC William "Bill" Moore — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:01:27 -0400

I retired in 2011 and had earned close to 190 credit hours of college equivalent credits. However, they were scattered all over the place, between science, English, criminal law,,,you name it. And I still didn't even have an associates! I decided to take advantage of my Post 911 bill, even though a degree was not needed. I was, by far, the oldest student in my classes, many times, even older than the Professors. I was working full time during the day and attending classes in the evening which turned out pretty good as there were a lot of working students doing the same thing. There were many "out of High school" students as well and the difference between them and the rest of the working students were blatantly obvious!

Group projects were a nightmare, so much that I would start each course, requesting that I would be allowed to go "Lone Ranger" on group assignments. They all allowed me that luxury and I always was at the top of the class. As a whole, most of the Professors I had would not allow a student to skate. That's not to say some didn't and then there were some courses that were too elementary that effort to attend was the hardest thing required. However, before I retired, I attended a different college which is known to be extremely liberal, in the state. Extra credit was always given on tests and assignments were rarely turned in. I attended three classes at that school and absolutely believed it was a waste of time and money.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2018 10:36 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:36:45 -0400

I have never heard of this grade inflation. I received both my BS and MBA in the 90s & never had a professor give additional points for anything, maybe 5-10 points of extra credit. But this was in a Calculus II class where there was a steep grading curve- the highest score in the class was a 60 (this was an A). Not everyone passed.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jul 30 at 2018 11:34 AM

SGT Tony Clifford — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:34:51 -0400

This is true to some extent. I worked a 22 hr/ week job and had 16 semester hours of classes. Even with my energy being so diffused, I only needed to put forth real effort in a handful of my classes (calculus, structural geology, sedimentology, petrology). The majority of my classes especially the general education classes were a cakewalk. Only in the science and math classes were there any challenges. The worst part is that many of the general education classes were just indoctrination. I was expected to express an opinion that was in line with the professor's view point. If I varied even slightly, I was openly mocked in class by my professors. Thus, I gave them the answers to questions of politics that they wanted to hear. This did even infect some of the science classes. In particular my water resources class. The professor point blank ask me if I voted for Trump, when she found out I was former military. I told her, "Not that it's any of your business, but no, I voted Libertarian. " She would regularly say that humanity was too large and espoused the myth about the population bomb. Even when I mentioned that the book she was referencing was written in the 70s and stated that the carrying capacity was 6 billion and the current population is nearly 8 billion with no global famine, she smugly continued to go on her rant. That's the real problem with higher education. We have an echo chamber forming. These people locked in their ivory towers no longer even consider that their ideas should be challenged.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2018 12:11 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:11:14 -0400

How far along are you in your degree program?

Seeing as how your example you posted below is a 100 level course, maybe it just wasn't that difficult.

Did the same thing happen in you 300 and 400 level courses?

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jul 31 at 2018 10:26 AM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:26:30 -0400

Sgt. Joseph Gunderson,
I read your story and it terrifies me to hear some American youth desire Communism instead of Democracy: seems necessary that Veterans who teach (I Substitute Teach as I am earning my Teaching degree) should be more in number as a ready bulwark against hate-filled and treasonous indoctrination. VETS ROCK!

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made Jul 31 at 2018 3:04 PM

Lt Col Robert Canfield — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 15:04:08 -0400

I can't argue with just about everything you observed. That's why I focused on a STEM curriculum instead of ANYTHING close to liberal arts "studies". In engineering you either do the structures analysis correctly so the bridge stays up or you don't and the bridge falls down. You write the software so the application works, or it crashes. In medicine, you diagnose the problem correctly and the patient lives, or he gets sicker and possibly dies. There is not a lot of "fuzzy speak" in the STEM fields. Although I did have to take a some humanities/liberal arts courses to "round out" my education (academia speak for "we want a shot at indoctrinating you"), I found most of these type courses to be an interesting temporary diversion from the rigor of math & science -- kind of like reading the comics or doing a crossword puzzle. You are in control of your education; you select the path of study you wish to take. The most important skill any education can teach you is what I call FSO skills -- "Figure S**T Out". If you are not learning that, then change your major -- or the college you are attending.

Response by SSG William Jones made Jul 31 at 2018 11:58 PM

SSG William Jones — Tue, 31 Jul 2018 23:58:55 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2018 4:56 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 04:56:27 -0400

Which college are you attending?

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Aug 1 at 2018 9:05 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 09:05:37 -0400

So with the striving for this position, which has not done you in yet by seeing the state of the current situation, will you be able to float above it and actually teach to a standard? Will you be able to retain your position if you do?

I have noticed that our education system has developed into a way in which the high school degrees of our parents have become the college degrees of our generation. There could be many reasons for this including ensuring that the new graduates are entrenched in debt (or military servitude as some of us have) or just have four more years to be taught what the DoE intends for them to learn.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2018 9:26 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 09:26:21 -0400

I think you just went to a low ranking school, because I can tell you that my university was not easy at all.
When I was in undergrad, I remember talking to a female student in my class who transferred from Umiss. She was shocked by how rigorous our university was, and she regretted being a transfer student there. And of course her GPA plummeted dramatically.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2018 2:12 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 14:12:36 -0400

Using a liberal arts degree to measure current college standards is about as useful as use a fresh out of OTC officer to measure all officers. Everyone has known liberal arts degrees are a joke since the 90s. What did this guy expect?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2018 3:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Aug 2018 15:12:19 -0400

I never had that experience when I went to college and got a Bachelor's before I joined and in online courses, never have I been handed a grade. In fact, in a statistics class I took when I got my first Master's, I had to ask the teacher if there was any way I could get some extra credit. I ended up a point and a half from a B - so I got a C. A C in graduate courses on TA is like an F so I had to pay back that TA money for that class (but the VA guy at my college included it in my GI Bill since I was using both and I got a refund check so it worked out). That class was hard I hate numbers.

But not everyone should go to college or needs to go to college to get a degree. I've known that.

Response by SPC Trish Sugas-Lopez made Aug 2 at 2018 4:46 AM

SPC Trish Sugas-Lopez — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 04:46:44 -0400

It would seem that the American education system had morphed from a place to broaden one’s formal education and promote critical thinking to a daycare of sorts where these teenagers and early-twenty-somethings could prolong their childhoods for a few more years while the teachers, in what can only be rationalized as an effort to keep their jobs “useful”, tossed passing grades on to transcripts."

I back this fully. I, too, have seen it with my own eyes. I was in my 30s when I first went back to school, took lots of classes, unsure of what direction I was going in, getting the basics, finally deciding on Administrative Justice, and graduated with Highest Honors. Everyone I was in class with thought I was some super genius. My favorite saying in reply, was, "it takes so little to be above average." I did 136 credits at a GPA of 4.0.

I went back to school to change career fields in my mid 40s. Even in my hardest prerequisite for the nursing program (physics), I put in the work. I stayed after to talk to the instructor after class if I didn't quite get the material. I went over it again and again until it did make sense. I took copious notes. I taped all the lectures of classes that were on the difficult side and then after class I went home and transcribed that one hour class worth of notes, even though it took me three hours to do so. I then had literally everything the teacher had said. No mistakes, no missing information. I studied for my tests until I knew the info backwards and forwards. If it was a writing exam (common in nursing and nursing prerequisites), I planned out the best answers to the possible test questions and practiced writing out test answers over and over again, until the day of the test, therefore, I blew it away.

But I was a veteran. I took pride in what I did, and I was there to do a job, and get it done right and get it done to the best of my ability. I graduated Magna cum laude from nursing.

("At the very same time that students are being shuffled through their university education, many professors take the opportunity to vomit their vile personal beliefs from the lectern.")

Yes, I had some difficulty with that at the university level. Not so much in the community college. It is absolutely indoctrination.

("If attending college has taught me one thing so far, it is that traditional, four year degrees should not be sought by everyone. In fact, I have become a firm believer in the value of technical schools and trades.")

You said it! I have to seriously agree on this. I hear you. If I could have done it, I would have as well. Unlike most career fields today, our schooling is BASED on critical thinking. And I'll tell you, the cheating ran RAMPANT. There were only 2 dinosaurs in those classes, and we were out of the loop (not that I would have cheated anyway), but it makes one real sore to see these entitled kids getting good jobs and positions after school based on work they didn't do.

-----------------

(" In the army we always joked about fighting communists as if it were a thing of the distant past, but it would seem alive and well.")

Well, seeing as I was in Germany when the wall came down in 1989 (!!) I can't say the same, but honestly, communism never died like we thought it would, like the East Germans dreamed it would, and like Germans and Americans celebrated that New Years eve, that it would. It just picked up a new name and carried on. Evil does that in the world. It won't be defeated until the end.

I remember being in formation and hearing General Joulwan say something to the effect that 50 years ago, we were fighting a mad man and a corrupt regime, (Hitler) and that "today" we were fighting another mad man and another corrupt regime (Saddam Hussein), and it occurred to me that with all we do, with all we sacrifice, nothing sticks. They keep coming, they keep trying. They won't leave US in peace. They are not content to walk away and recognize that we won. Their goal is total world domination, (aka OWG) no matter how long it takes, no matter how many wars must be fought, and no matter how many casualties are lost in the fight. We, and our Constitution, are the biggest remaining threat to their agenda. Which is why we, as a nation, as a people, need to appreciate what we have, the sacrifices that have gone before us, and know what it is we stand for, what we're willing to fight and, if necessary, die for.

Good luck to you. Not only in school, but beyond.

Response by Ken Kraetzer made Aug 2 at 2018 2:55 PM

Ken Kraetzer — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 14:55:41 -0400

Thank you for your service, perhaps you can transfer to a more competitive college.

Response by SGT Everett M. Cheney made Aug 3 at 2018 9:45 PM

SGT Everett M. Cheney — Fri, 03 Aug 2018 21:45:40 -0400

Military service prepares us for so very much but in my experience it also prepared me to be “UNDERWHELMED “ regarding 75% of civilian and or public safety educational opportunities. I learned to pick my battles and focus on the goal and not the “gaggle “ of the inexperienced being led by the untested.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Aug 4 at 2018 2:11 PM

MAJ Steve Daugherty — Sat, 04 Aug 2018 14:11:02 -0400

I was a High School dropout in 1967. I was bored and did well on tests but I had to get married and went to work I finished HS taking an exam one night while watching TV . Because of high ACT and SAT scores I started college at U of Colorado going at night and working. It wasn’t easy like HS and had to learn to study. Ended up in theArmy in 1971 and spent an enlistment as a Buck Sargent. When I got out I had a difficult time adjusting to school as in the army we all followed the same rules but each professor had his own set and you had to figure it out for yourself. I survived and did well enough to get into medicine and back into the army. It wasn’t a cakewalk. There was a time in the 60’s that there was talk of inflated grades in an effort of the intelligentsia keeping young men out of the draft. The socialists if today seem to think that society can function with egalitarian benefits without hard work and creativity. When things collapse around their ears they will be hard pressed to survive

Response by Jerry Rivas made Aug 5 at 2018 10:01 PM

Jerry Rivas — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 22:01:20 -0400

There is a lot to be said for skilled trades.
A plumber makes more money than the average college graduate.

Response by SGT Jennifer Rixe made Aug 6 at 2018 1:05 AM

SGT Jennifer Rixe — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 01:05:20 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson My hat is off to you good sir for speaking the truth of your experience. My experience with college has been somewhat different than what you have described, although when I had first started pursuing my AA degree I would say that your analysis is spot on! I think that it depends on which college you are attending and what major your are pursing that dictates the amount of effort it will be needed to put into your education. When I was going to school for my undergrad in psychology, I attended a private Catholic university. My biggest class size was 8 students.
That being said, the professor's expectations were much higher than they had been when I was getting my Associates but thankfully, I've always put my studies first and made sure that I was getting the most out of my education. Graduate school has been a totally different experience - at least from my perspective! It is demanding, challenging, and the curriculum is designed to weed out the students that are not truly into the degree plan. I have absolutely no clue how, but I have managed to pull a 3.72 GPA while working 40+ hours a week, going to class, doing the homework, working on completing my 760 hrs. of my last internship by working 20 hrs. on Saturdays and Sundays, 2 10 hr. shifts. Summer quarter is almost completed so we'll see what the GPA ends up then... my point is, don't get too discouraged with regards of how things have been so far during your education career.
You're a bright man, so I'm positive that you will do well in grad school. It's very disheartening to read about your observations with students just being passed through onto the next degree with no effort being exuded. The biggest issue that I see is that once these students graduate and start putting their feelers out for careers in their degree field, those disciplines will suffer because the pool that they will be hiring from will not have the slightest idea of what it takes to be successful without a pass off.
I wish you the best of luck in grad school my friend... you'll do great things I'm sure! :)

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 6 at 2018 10:55 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 10:55:13 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson I feel some of your pain. I have been (while probably twice your age LOL) plodding my way through school after dropping out/being asked to leave (potato-potaato) back in the 80s and enlisting in the Marines..
Started back at school a few yrs ago, and take a class at a time, and they are truly easy, I can say that with only 2 classes left finally LOL... I think that the ease of the classes is a combination of age and experience, and a desire to finish something (learned in military) i.e. not afraid to do the work..
I would caution you a little, because nothing posted is truly staying on the private side, and as we see all the time, posts and tweets (which I am not a fan of -all that hash tag stuff) come back to haunt us.

I applaud your efforts, and hope you kill it in grad school. With that degree, you can become the type of teacher that you would like to have had. I have been going online, because of work and still being in the service, but so far, I have been lucky and all of my professors have been solid, with either degree related experience, and/or veterans or both. It is sad, but we do live in an environment of "everyone gets a prize". That is all well and good until the proverbial shit hits the fan, then we need folks who actually know what they are doing....

Best of luck

Response by CPO Nate S. made Aug 6 at 2018 1:56 PM

CPO Nate S. — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 13:56:44 -0400

I received my AS degree on active duty after being largely operational. I finished my BS in 1999 after retiring and was told by many of my younger fellow students that my work was forcing them to work harder. What was interesting is that the "non-military students" felt I was outshining them working so hard. Their problem not mine!

Regardless, I was going to do my best all while, along with my wife raising two middle schoolers thought high school. Like Maj Landgen, I had a high B average overall. It had been a long time since I had chemistry, physics and other courses. I now have A's in two different master programs, that because of family issues, I still need to go back and complete.

I even found myself teaching at the Associates level (after I got my BS with the masters work I had done) and the quality of students, save those older who want it, was poor. I taught Anatomy & Physiology for two years at a community college. That was interesting!

Also, I agree with your statement "...four year degrees should not be sought by everyone. In fact, I have become a firm believer in the value of technical schools and trades." Absolutely! We have a lot of smart people whose time and talent is wasted going to get a 4-yr degree, when they are the bright ones we need in what I like to call "Thinking Technical Specialties".

Finally, many people as Winston Churchill once told someone "... don't know their own bloody history." Perhaps, if people "... learned to think for themselves (aka the process of critical thinking..." vs "...being so gullible and needing someone to tell them what to think...." we'd all prosper a little more by solving real problems in honest ways.

Response by 1stSgt Nelson Kerr made Aug 6 at 2018 8:28 PM

1stSgt Nelson Kerr — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 20:28:29 -0400

That sound like when i went to College in 76 for a couple of semesters, nothing new here.
And there is now doubt that having a degree makes you less likely to be unemployed and likely to make more money.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Aug 7 at 2018 7:37 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Tue, 07 Aug 2018 07:37:47 -0400

I appreciate your personal experience and agree with you in many ways. You took a similar path to me. Instead of going straight to college out of high school you went straight into the military, learned the ropes of adulthood, and then went back to school. I think what you experienced is a combination of two different things. 1) About 2/3 of the college experience is learning to be an adult --managing your schedule, being responsible, accountable, independent. You learned all this in the military so it was nothing to you in college. I'm sure your fellow students did not have similar experiences. 2) Sounds to me like you were probably a pretty smart person to begin with. You likely went to a university that wasn't challenging enough for your level of education. A different school might have changed things for you. Many colleges today are just degree-machines designed for the lowest common denominator. It's unfortunate. If you plan to go to grad school much of this will change! Be sure to select a school requisite with your abilities and trust me you will be challenged!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2018 10:16 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Aug 2018 10:16:02 -0400

Looking back, I would do things a tad different if I had the opportunity. My approach to college was much the same as it was to high school, do just enough to pass. Chalk it up to immaturity. I will say that I learned a lot in college both in class and about life.

I was quite disappointed with graduate studies though. I was quite a bit older when I signed up for grad school, and determined to learn as much as I could. What I learned in grad school was how to conduct and document research. My biggest disappointment was in what the professors accepted/allowed from other students in my classes. We had to write a paper for each class, each term and do a presentation on our paper. What I found so disheartening was students who I assume paid someone to do the work for them as when giving their presentations, they couldn't even pronounce some of the words "they used" on their slides. The professors either didn't notice or didn't care.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Aug 8 at 2018 2:58 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Wed, 08 Aug 2018 14:58:58 -0400

Somehow I just have to chime in and say that your degree choice may have something to do with your experiences. My grandson went from high school (honor student) straight into college for a computer engineering degree and hasn't run into the situations you describe. Yes some professors offer extra credit, especially in classes like calculus, but they certainly aren't giving away grades. Grading on a curve is nothing new in college, they were doing that in the 60s when I was in college, so if you perceive that as professors inflating grades for their professional survival you're way off base.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Aug 8 at 2018 4:01 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Wed, 08 Aug 2018 16:01:49 -0400

I (used to) teach CompSci classes... programming is more art than science so it leaves a lot of room for creativity. I always told my students to strive for elegance in their code and would grade accordingly.

Some couldn’t script ‘Hello, World’ in DOS without assistance. Others were artists.

Now days i don’t teach anymore, but have friends who still do. From time to time i help grade *GRADUATE* level papers... APA format research papers...

Most can’t formulate a sentence, much less a coherent paragraph.

I weep for the future....

Response by COL David Turk made Aug 11 at 2018 6:23 AM

COL David Turk — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 06:23:17 -0400

The cartoon “Doonsberry” chronicled this situation with a fictitious university (Walden, I believe).

Response by SSgt Ryan Sylvester made Aug 11 at 2018 7:48 AM

SSgt Ryan Sylvester — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 07:48:41 -0400

Alright, this is a highly anecdotal response, and simple one man's opinion compared to your own. YMMV, and all that.

First, you are very correct, the traditional 4 year degree may not be for everyone, it really depends on your career field, what you want to do in life. If you want to do something that requires technical skills, technical schools are definitely the way to go. And you can make good money in those fields... HVAC, for example, is in such high demand right now that experienced technicians can potentially clear 6 six figures a year. It'd involve longer hours than your 9-5 office job, but it can be done in a "blue collar" field.

Higher education, you get out of it what you put into it. And it starts with school selection. I have a Bachelor's Degree (plan to go for a Doctorate at some point) from Eastern Michigan University. Sure, I could have taken my Chapter 33 to University of Michigan, a very prestigious state university, and gotten my 4 year degree in some Computer Information Management program. But I took the time to research. I wound up at EMU which, while not quite as prestigious as "the U", had the exact program I wanted: Information Assurance. A program that, by the by, held certification from the NSA. So while the university may not have been the most prestigious that I could have gone to, the program itself was top notch.

My experience is school was similar. A lot of young kids, at least in the GenEd courses. There were plenty of older students, though, and better still, a strong presence of fellow veteran students. I had plenty of people that I could relate with. However, I still engaged with the younger kids in classes, to various degrees. I often took leadership positions in group projects, typically without the role ever being defined... it just worked out like that. I kept groups on point, and if one member wasn't pulling weight, fine... I handled it myself. Because I wasn't letting our group suffer because one person was lazy. Did they benefit? Sure. But I was alright with that. It was impacting their own learning experience, not mine. However, that was the outlier condition. Most of the time, especially in my program's courses, everyone pulled their weight and then some.

Because I knew most of the concepts taught by the program (as it fell in line with my AFSC), I was often already an SME in most of my program classes. Digital and Network Forensics? I wrote the book on Computer Investigations for my Peterson AFB IA office. Policies and Procedures? I was writing (and signing) policy letters, from scratch, as Base Computer Security Manager. System Administration classes? I did that for 9 years. Networking? Worked many times with Tech Control troubleshooting the network, where our systems were concerned. I had experience in spades, and I never hesitated to impart that wisdom to my fellow classmates, especially those who were struggling with certain concepts. And I not only helped them, but reinforced my own knowledge and gained skill as a trainer and mentor.

My class selection was also important. Even in GenEd. I didn't go for the easiest classes. I went for classes that either interested me personally, or would challenge me as a person. For example, I took Astronomy. Right off the bat. I love science, I love space. Astronomy gave me a great starting point for my college life, as I was able to learn about something I love and have great interest in. I also took Interpersonal Communications because, frankly, I have a hard time communicating with people (I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a people person). That allowed me to develop skills in dynamic communication. The theory portion of the class was a breeze, but the practical application portion stretched me. And that's just a couple examples.

In most cases, I engaged with my professors regularly. I was quick to offer opinions and insights, get into debates, and generally lead interactive discussions in class. Not so much that no one else could get a word in edgewise, and I would often wait a period of time before reengaging to give others a chance to speak up. But especially in classes with kids fresh out of high school, they were used to being taught at. They would be timid to speak up, until someone else did. After that, after they knew the dynamic of school had changed, they were less afraid to engage the professor, as well. This would lead to more discussions, more ideas shared, more learning. There was almost never a sense of intimidation or lack of respect on any part, and the one time a professor exhibited that type of behavior, she was reported and removed from the course by the college. Mostly, the learning experience was exemplified in every course, and some professors even thanked me stepping up to lead discussions. Including those professors that had diametrically opposing views of just about every topic.

So yes. In general, I had a great experience with college. I chose my college carefully, I got into a program that furthered my professional life, and I selected classes for learning, not for grade. Sure, you can go to any college and get your degree in Underwater Basket Weaving. If you just want the degree, the piece of paper, you've got it. And that's the culture that's been pushed, where the degree is all important. But that's not what college is for. If there's an indoctrination going on at ultra-liberal colleges... I'm telling you right now that, at least from my own experience, there's colleges and programs out there where learning is the main objective. Find them. Do your due diligence and find the college that matches best with your objectives in professional life.

Response by PFC David Shires made Aug 11 at 2018 10:33 PM

PFC David Shires — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 22:33:17 -0400

Thank You! God, I've been saying this for years. Also, I rather appreciated your verbal lexicon.

Response by PFC David Shires made Aug 11 at 2018 11:06 PM

PFC David Shires — Sat, 11 Aug 2018 23:06:42 -0400

I am currently at my second Insitution of higher learning. I can personally attest to what Sgt Gunderson is speaking of.

Response by CW5 John M. made Aug 12 at 2018 10:56 AM

CW5 John M. — Sun, 12 Aug 2018 10:56:26 -0400

I had high testing scores throughout school, but declining grades entering HS. I graduated in the middle of the "pack" and was content to do so. I had no academic field in mind to pursue. I was not motivated enough for college right out of HS. I figured that I would enter the service, although having no specific specialty in mind. Things changed for me when my dad brought home an Army Aviation Digest right before I started my senior year and I latched onto the idea that I wanted to be a helicopter pilot. The Army was looking for "warm bodies" in several specialties while the Vietnam conflict was going on, which made it relatively easy to get into aviation to pursue my "dream". I stayed in the Army for 8 years and had two overseas tours before I got out to get some college under the GI Bill. The GI Bill helped me obtain extensive civilian aviation training which supplemented my prior military skills - making me an SME in a couple of competitive areas that helped my career.

I started College ten years out of HS, and was glad that my years in the military taught me the discipline and hard work ethic that allowed me to do very well my studies. I also felt that there had been somewhat of a decline in the English and writing skills among students since my HS days, which made iit easier to excel in some courses. While I was in school, I joined the National Guard to help suppliment my costs. After graduation and some civilian employment, I had a chance to become AGR (active duty in the National Guard), to complete my military service.

Response by Maj Robert Thornton made Aug 12 at 2018 6:54 PM

Maj Robert Thornton — Sun, 12 Aug 2018 18:54:08 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson my first 4 years out of high school, I majored in beer drinking, and chasing women, with a minor in class cutting. I swam my freshman year and played varsity lacrosse all 4 years. Yes I graduated, ended up hanging sheetrock and later driving trucks for a living. When I married, a year out of college, I could not find work where my wife found hers, ended up trying to find a job as an orderly at the hospital. Ended up doing the year long votech LPN course and working as an orderly.
To make the story short, I worked as an LPN, went back to college for a BSN, finished #2 in my class. Went into the Air Force, 2.5 years later into nurse anesthesia school, eventually earning 2 masters degrees. After a career in anesthesia I taught nursing at both the undergrad and graduate level.
At Albany State University our grading system for the nursing program was stricter than the rest of the college, and there was no rounding up of grades. These students had to sink or swim, many sunk. Not all schools have slack standards. If students were struggling, it was not unusual for the profs to make time after class and work with the students.
Yes, I was very immature when I first went to a college. I wasn't when I went back.

Response by SGT Lisa Fields made Aug 12 at 2018 9:02 PM

SGT Lisa Fields — Sun, 12 Aug 2018 21:02:48 -0400

I hate to say you are right. Even in the medical fields. Since I did my EMT course while I was active duty I was with the struggle of time management grave yard shift at the ER nap and up for PT.
I was a terrible student never did my reading never cracked my textbooks.
Even tho emt-B was the same shit I learned in osut with a few extras tossed on. Watching civilian counterparts struggle in the hands on and internship in the hospital was painful to watch.
Our instructor was hardcore in the classroom so there was no reason I could see for the wide skill gap between myself and my civilian counterparts.

Response by SGT Robert Haynes made Aug 17 at 2018 8:03 PM

SGT Robert Haynes — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 20:03:45 -0400

Sgt Gunderson, Like you I went to college after I got out, only I went several years after, and actually wrote a paper on this very subject. Students think that they should get a C for just showing up. I actually appreciated the education more going later in life. I will tell you the self- discipline that I learned on active duty help me get through the late nights studying/writing after working a 10 hour work day, then to class. Congrats on your success.

Response by SPC Charles Lowry made Aug 20 at 2018 10:20 AM

SPC Charles Lowry — Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:20:59 -0400

Such good insight shared, but painfully true of the academic circles in most cases. I take comfort in your comments and your strength in standing up for the American way, for sometimes I feel alone crying out for our Nation. Currahee.

Response by SGT Charles Clemons made Aug 24 at 2018 12:19 PM

SGT Charles Clemons — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:19:14 -0400

Hit the nail on the head. Great post!!!
I noted recently that a significant % of crime in the USA is committed by those with IQ of 85 or less.
I stumbled on your post less than 30 seconds after doing some research on a man named Saul Alinsky.
He wrote the book Rules for Radicals.
This book is the 'Organizational and Theological Bible' for many of the Politicians of the far left. 2 of our recent Presidents were ideological students of SA. Even before I joined the Army I was reading Sun Tzu,Patton,Clauswitz,etc by age 16.
Look at the Tactics espoused by Saul Alinsky. Remember the definition of Maskirovka as practiced by the former Soviet Union. Now with those in mind.....compare politicians actions/words against those definitions.
Also remember that each of the major media outlets are owned by those with ideological axes to grind.
The left has been accused of infiltrating educatiomal institures for decades now, with the specfic intent to take down the USA from within.
' Control the education of your peasants and they are much easier to control ' has been a realistic and effective popular meme throughout history as we know it.
All this stuff is connected. China plans its govt decades/centuries nto the future. While we are on a short cycle.
Just food for thought.

Response by SGT Charles Clemons made Aug 24 at 2018 12:22 PM

SGT Charles Clemons — Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:22:18 -0400

On the news last week in the finance portion of the news was noted that employers are starting to realize that a degree isnt needed for all jobs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2018 7:12 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 07:12:59 -0400

Great article. Pretty much sums up one of the biggest existential problems in America.

Response by Sgt Ken Prescott made Aug 29 at 2018 9:07 PM

Sgt Ken Prescott — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:07:07 -0400

For what it's worth...
I worked at Booz Allen Hamilton for 14 years. When I first got there, it was considered one of the best management consulting firms around. We had a program called "Performance Warm-up" where new hires would be taken to corporate HQ for a week to attend classes about the consulting business cycle and where they fit into the process.
I was *extremely* fortunate to get into the firm, as I didn't have a degree from an upper-tier school.
Starting in 2007, the head shed added a week to Performance Warm-Up, to be done BEFORE the trip to corporate. That week was devoted to a quick remedial course in Bonehead English.
Yes, the most highly-ranked management consulting firm, one of the choosiest around, one that recruited from places like Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, and Georgetown . . . had to teach new hires how to write for a professional audience.
It's gotten worse. And I'm expecting these chuckleheads to pay my Social Security.
I'm going to go yell at a cloud. Who's with me?

Response by COL William Oseles made Aug 31 at 2018 1:15 PM

COL William Oseles — Fri, 31 Aug 2018 13:15:04 -0400

I have a friend that teaches community college and so-called advanced placement courses for High School dual credit courses. He cannot get in trouble for passing students that do not read the Curriculum, do not turn in assignments or do not pass tests. He does get in trouble for failing to many (any) of these high achiever High School students that think they do not have to do the work. In fact he will get in trouble for passing them with D's and C's.

Response by PO3 William Bauer made Sep 3 at 2018 11:27 AM

PO3 William Bauer — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 11:27:58 -0400

I, as a Vet began college with no knowledge of the rules of the game. I read the catalogue and found that one college unit was earned by 15 weeks of one hour of lecture per week and 2 hours of homework for each hour of lecture. I learned that college was a simple addition problem with 125 units being the goal. The only political problem I remember was in a lower-division class about political "science." I got a B and moved on. The school worked for me and I are now a PhD

Response by Lt Col Ron Jacobs made Sep 13 at 2018 6:06 PM

Lt Col Ron Jacobs — Thu, 13 Sep 2018 18:06:26 -0400

Amen

Response by MSG Randy Rucker made Sep 13 at 2018 8:11 PM

MSG Randy Rucker — Thu, 13 Sep 2018 20:11:49 -0400

At 18 with a GED, I begged an Army Recruiter to let me join. 22 years later as I retired, nobody would give me a job. I took my G.I. Bill and begged a college to let me in, 2 years later with a B.S., nobody would hire me. I took what was left of my G.I. Bill and I got a Master's degree, I got a job! Now? I'm working on a PhD., but I also work for the VA, I help Veterans with disabilities get retrained to a job that doesn't make the disabilities worse. I'm making a difference, I need your help and I need it now. Make a difference not a grade.

Response by SGT Christopher Combs made Sep 14 at 2018 8:01 AM

SGT Christopher Combs — Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:01:40 -0400

I hope everything works out for you

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2018 8:39 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:39:37 -0400

I can attest to this. As an adjunct professor, teaching a history course, I noticed a profound lack of motivation among students. The course I was teaching was not difficult, and I avoided asking questions designed to trip up the test-taker (unlike some professors I've had), but about half of my students had trouble passing easy tests, even though I did reviews prior to testing in which I ensured we covered everything that might be on the test.

Toward the end of the semester I had everyone write a 5-page paper. This was not an English class, so I was not going to nitpick on spelling and punctuation, but I told them to at least use spell check, to have an identifiable thesis statement, and to defend it in a readable paper without and overabundance of grammar, spelling, and punctuation mistakes. I also gave clear instructions and examples of how they were to annotate their sources. I did not think this to be overly difficult, as it was something I had to do regularly when attending a private Christian university 15 years before. When I got the papers back, only a couple were readable, and only one student had followed instructions on annotation of sources. The rest did their own thing.

In the end, only half the class ended up with passing grades in an easy class, and some of those just barely. I was pressured by the college to modify the grades so more students would pass, but I told them that would be a disservice to the students, and would make the class meaningless. I have not been offered another class to teach at that college.

Response by MAJ Phil Margeta-Cacace made Sep 17 at 2018 7:31 AM

MAJ Phil Margeta-Cacace — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 07:31:56 -0400

Graduate school??? Recommendation: Choose carefully. Your experience will depend on the academic community you choose. (I did NOT say, "chooses you".) Do you want to teach English literature? Are you interested in rhetoric? Writing? What level... high school... community college... liberal arts university... research university??? Where can you go to work with a professor whose interests are the same as you? Remember that graduate school is about becoming a colleague NOT being a student. You have every right to expect rigor from academia but you need to be selective to ensure you pick a university where rigor is a requirement.

Response by MSgt Neil Greenfield made Sep 23 at 2018 9:14 AM

MSgt Neil Greenfield — Sun, 23 Sep 2018 09:14:44 -0400

First of all, congratulations. Second, I hope reach whatever goal you have in getting an education. College educations can take a short time (i.e., Associate level) to accomplish, or in my case, quite some time to get a Bachelor's degree. I was a terrible student in high school. Growing up, all I ever wanted to be was a Soldier. Thought I'd be a grizzled old sergeant with many stripes down my arm. I watched too many war movies or comedies growing up, I guess. Plus, my family has a history of serving.
I started my college education when I was on active duty in the Army while stationed in West Berlin in 1980. University of Maryland University College (UMUC). I had some detours when I got out of the Army in 1986 and went the local community college route full-time, and then had to go to work full-time after figuring out that I didn't know exactly what I wanted to study. When I started, I had intended on getting a Political Science degree, then some sort of technology degree. I think I had 10-12 declared "majors", before I finally graduated in 1997 from UMUC (with part-time study) with a B.S. degree in Technical Management. In between, I also was able to earn an A.A.S. degree from the Community College of the Air Force.
Does my degree have any relevancy to my current occupation? In short, no. I work with both degreed and non-degreed individuals. Some are managers without degrees, while some have them. The higher up the chain you go, the degree matters more. Most people I know don't work in the areas that they majored in.
The same can be true of certified or non-certified people. I've earned a number of certifications, some of which I have allowed to expire, while the more important ones (at least to me), I maintain because they are relevant to my professional career. I placed a lot of effort into attaining the certifications. I'm not about to let them go. There are those that say that certifications are bogus. That's true for them, but not for me.
Teachers and counselors in Elementary, Junior High School, and High School didn't exactly think I was capable of much, mostly because I was considered shy, quiet, and I stuttered. Going into the Army was the first, best thing to happen for me. But my degree is mine and mine alone, forever. I didn't get my degree for anyone else, but me. I earned it.
For you, and this is my message to you, while you are in school, don't worry about the qualifications and skills of others. You are there for one purpose, and that is not to espouse on how things are going elsewhere. You are there for yourself. Your degree, once you've earned them are yours and yours alone. Celebrate the accomplishment.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2018 1:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:38:34 -0400

I would caution you... not to assume that your own personal experience with college speaks for all experiences, as mine was, for the most part, wholly different.
I received my Associates recently from a State college & earned a 4.0 GPA in the end. That degree and the grades are a result of literally thousands of hours put into my studies. Teachers didn't hand out A's, expected students to do the work or receive the subsequent poor grade. Goofing off or talking during class was not tolerated. In the end, I was able to develop great relationships with my professors because they recognized my desire to succeed and not just "get thru school." I've quite enjoyed my academic experience thus far.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2018 7:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Sep 2018 19:33:29 -0400

"At the very same time that students are being shuffled through their university education, many professors take the opportunity to vomit their vile personal beliefs from the lectern." Yep. This is why I walked away from college a couple of times before finally completing it.

However, it's all about getting a job interview. I worked for quite a while without a degree and it was very hard. Once you have the 4-year degree on paper that our rather shallow-minded society values so much, getting a good job is so much easier.

Response by Michael Mick made Sep 29 at 2018 1:06 PM

Michael Mick — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 13:06:58 -0400

Unfortunately true, it far too many places. I teach at a well-respected midwest university and, thankfully, in a technical field which leaves little room for politics. Most of the liberal arts have become just as you describe. The only way to change it is to have more people who will refuse to do as those you have described, but it is very hard to get in the door if your "attitude" isn't PC. I can only say that I am glad that I am approaching retirement age. Unfortunately, not quite there or I would be gone. We still have a fair number of students who worked/served first and they make for the best students! I have long thought that there should be a required break between high school and college where students can either work for a living or serve in the military (even harder work) before college. That would be the quickest way to begin raising college standards in a real sense.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Oct 4 at 2018 3:47 PM

CWO2 Shelby DuBois — Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:47:16 -0400

Amen. Good luck, Joe.

Response by Capt Christian D. Orr made Oct 6 at 2018 11:23 PM

Capt Christian D. Orr — Sat, 06 Oct 2018 23:23:11 -0400

Thank God I escaped, er, graduated from college when I did (1997)! Your story underscores just how our colleges and universities have gone to hell in a handbasket.

Response by PO3 Eugene Rizzardi made Oct 7 at 2018 5:59 PM

PO3 Eugene Rizzardi — Sun, 07 Oct 2018 17:59:12 -0400

Agreed, not everyone needs to go to college, it might be helpful but so is Military Service

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Oct 10 at 2018 4:33 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Wed, 10 Oct 2018 04:33:41 -0400

this is very true statements - first hand experience in UW - if you do NOT do the things he described, you get attacked by the student body for "problematic" views and practices. One day 5 people walked in to class 15 to 25 minutes late, each time, the professor had to stop the lecture, and catch up these students, as the last one came in and the teacher stopped to recap yet again, I exclaimed "oh for fucks sake", I was asked what my problem was, and I said - At this point professor, these chuckle fucks coming in late are effecting not only your time and ability to teach, but my ability to learn, it is disrespectful, rude, and inconsiderate of the people who came to your class on time, there has to be a line where accountability for their actions results in a negative consequence. The entire class, including the professor, started to berate me for having privilege, amongst the lightest accusation, I was then berated for being a tool of the white supremacist colonial machine for serving in the Army. This IS a very scary environment if you deviate from the narrative that is the higher education system.

Response by SSG Doug Terrel made Oct 10 at 2018 12:47 PM

SSG Doug Terrel — Wed, 10 Oct 2018 12:47:35 -0400

Joe,
I completely agree with you. I was medically retired in 2014, and stayed at Ft Hood to get my Bachelor's degree from Texas A&M in Killeen. I already had 2 years of college by this point, so it was a short stint to finish out the degree of 2.5 years. I was in a situation where I had to go back and finish out some common core requirements (like Texas Government) that were required in order to graduate as the state I got my associates degree from did not have a common core requirement.
At first, I went about my studies just like I did in the 90s - studying a 1/2 hour every day on each subject. When I took my first finals at the new school, I was happy with my results, but I also was frustrated at the fact that some of the other students in the class got A's but never once turned in an assignment, didn't participate in class discussions, missed multiple days of class, etc. Those first four classes that I took at Texas A&M had an overall class grade average of above 85%. Now, I'm not saying that the subjects weren't easy, but they seriously were not a challenge. Seemed more to me like they are collecting money from us to pretend like they taught us something.
The grade thing was so de-motivating, that by the time I was in my last two semesters, I stopped studying altogether just to see what happened. I graduated with a 3.66 GPA cumulative throughout my college career, so obviously my lack of caring at that point didn't cause any issues for me. It was so bad that in one of my final semester's classes - Advanced Visual Basic - I only turned in one assignment out of 16 on time, turned in my final project a week late, and did not complete the entire project (just the parts on the Rubrick that I needed to get a C as a grade for the project.) This being said, I still got a high B for the class.
For a computer science major, there is almost no reason for you to get this degree. Go ahead and get your certificates in CompTIA, Cisco, GIAC, Microsoft or whatever. The college thing was only a "foot in the door" kind of thing for me, so truly 4.5 years of my life that was wasted. But hey, at least I didn't have to pay for it, right?

~Doug

Response by CPT Bobby Fields made Oct 10 at 2018 4:31 PM

CPT Bobby Fields — Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:31:40 -0400

My grad school experience after I left active duty (after six years working) was much different from an effort perspective, but I did see a few similarities with the writing abilities of some of my classmates. My classmates ranged in age from students who started grad school immediately after completing their undergrad in social work or psychology, to working adults of all ages up to early-mid 60s. Across the board, the younger students had less writing ability than the rest of us (I was 37 when I started grad school), which became apparent when we were assigned group projects/papers. I always made sure that my instructors knew which portion of each group project/paper that I prepared so my work and performance was objectively graded and I wouldn't be impacted by the writing ability of others.

The political and social views of my classmates were pretty varied, partially because of the age differences, and partially because of my program of study. I majored in Social Work, with a concentration in mental health and a sub-concentration in military and veteran social work so I had a lot of classmates who were also current/former military, spouses, dependents, etc. I had a few professors who were vocally liberal, but that also has to do with the social work profession in general.

Response by SSgt Rick Waterbury made Oct 19 at 2018 9:39 AM

SSgt Rick Waterbury — Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:39:27 -0400

I am delighted you will be teaching. Your experiences and standards are unique and of great value to those lucky enough to be your students.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2018 3:49 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:49:41 -0400

I definitely feel that going back to school later in life, made me a better student academically and professionally. I went to law school years after undergrad (7 years active duty USAF) and took it more seriously due to my age and experience. Thank god for the GI bill which allowed me to do so.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Oct 31 at 2018 4:07 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:07:28 -0400

This is the state of higher education today https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/03/dog-rape-hoax-papers-pluckrose-Lindsay this all you need to know about what is infesting higher education, and what is indoctrinating our youth.

dog-rape-hoax-papers-pluckrose-Lindsay

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2018 9:30 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 21:30:38 -0400

I think it's also important to note that there is a difference in colleges...going to a community college versus ivy league would be a very different experience. In addition, the skills and maturity one gain from the military is very different from that from college education, which one is more practical? which one is more important? up to debate....id say people from either category have strength and weakness that might or might not put them in a bad position in life depending on, well, their choices

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2018 11:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Nov 2018 23:01:10 -0400

I agree fully and found myself in the same boat of being a “C” average student in high school and college. I joined the Army and after 16 years in the Army have been back at college a few semesters and received straight A’s. It seems so much easier and all I’m doing is the work that is asked of me.

Response by SPC Paul Weegar made Nov 5 at 2018 6:55 PM

SPC Paul Weegar — Mon, 05 Nov 2018 18:55:29 -0500

Sgt, I can go one better. I was fortunate enough to use my GI benefits to get my BS degree. However, I wanted to further my knowledge in the IT field. So, I enrolled in a community college, bought the over priced book and started in. There were no quizzes, no test, other than the final. In fact there were no class rooms, as the IT course was completely virtual. What a joke. I scored 100% in the class. And like you, I'm at best generally a "B" student. I always hated going to classes and studying. But this class (and the more advanced class) were both a joke.

Response by SPC Kenneth Berry made Nov 10 at 2018 5:29 PM

SPC Kenneth Berry — Sat, 10 Nov 2018 17:29:31 -0500

I agree. My sister worked at a bingo hall just because she could and she was amazed at all the college students that could not count without a calculator. Bad when they could not give the right change back.

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Nov 13 at 2018 5:19 AM

MAJ Montgomery Granger — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 05:19:07 -0500

Great insight! Higher Education is a business. Like any business, they survive on repeat customers. If your customers fail and then don't return, it puts more pressure on recruiting the best students. If all of your paying customers pass and then return time after time, then your business thrives. Higher education is also a business for professors and would-be professors. Publish or die. Research and publications keep the college/university name out there, and can act as a magnet for grants, endowments, top recruits. Like anything in life, you get out of it what you put in. I was glad to read that you were going to graduate with honors. Congratulations! Teaching is a noble profession. I have been an educator for over 32 years and take pride in saying none of my students ever knew my political or religious leanings other than what they could guess. I felt successful as an educator if, after the lesson was complete, my students could say, "I did it myself." I viewed myself as a facilitator, rather than the source of learning. As for technical school and college not being for everyone, I agree. As a society, we miss the comprehensive high school, where community school districts decided what types of skills were important for those less academically inclined to learn and be able to do. This "everyone must go to college" mindset degrades those who would rather start a business, learn a trade, or seek a different path to success and happiness. Local high schools must wake up to the realities of the need for more students seeking jobs and careers in agriculture (without agriculture we would be hungry, naked and sober!), health services, retail, auto repair, etc. All the manufacturing and commercial jobs and careers do not require a college degree, but some do in the technical fields. And it seems nearly ALL professions require more and more skill in technical fields. The business world and even the defense industry thirst for talented techies who can learn on the job, but at least come with some technical skills. Why aren't ewe partnering with local businesses in local schools to satisfy the need for these jobs? College. You have to go to college. With fewer and fewer youth interested or needing labor intensive jobs, the demand for these jobs increases. If students are introduced to these jobs early, some will find their passion in them. If not, employers will seek the path of least resistance and find someone, anyone, who will do the work. Good luck and God Bless! Hooah!

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Nov 17 at 2018 10:40 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:40:19 -0500

GIGO. You get out what you put in. Stop worrying so much about what other students are or are not doing. Who cares if they get the same grade for doing less? If you are there to learn, then LEARN. If your professors aren't challenging you, challenge yourself. If you get a 121 on a test because the teacher gives out 25 bonus points, great! Who cares whether it is an A or an A+++++? It's still an A for your GPA.
I understand your concern, but at the end of the day, the other students who didn't put in the work and got their degree WON'T be competing with you - at least not for long. Because you DID put in the work and actually gained knowledge in addition to that little piece of paper. Let them have their shallow victory, it may be all they CAN achieve.

Response by SMSgt Roy Dowdy made Nov 17 at 2018 12:42 PM

SMSgt Roy Dowdy — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:42:35 -0500

I would agree to some level with regard to General Studies subject areas. Most schools direct their efforts to the Lowest Common Denominator (LCD) student since a large majority of them are attending on state funded tuition and to fail them would decrease their rolls, thus shrinking their budgets! However, if the subject matter your pursuing is an intense STEM or post graduation degree, then your more likely to be challenged academically and held to a higher standard. Unfortunately, today most schools and universities are self-licking ice cream cones!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2018 7:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 Nov 2018 19:11:25 -0500

What college was this? May I ask?

Response by LTC John R. made Dec 2 at 2018 8:30 AM

LTC John R. — Sun, 02 Dec 2018 08:30:52 -0500

One of my friends and ROTC classmates entered the Army at the same time as me. After a few years he decided to pursue dreams of being a rocket scientist, so he left the Army and attended a Masters program in aerospace engineering at a top engineering school. He couldn't believe how easy it was. It wasn't really any easier. Before the Army, he THOUGHT college was hard because he approached it from the perspective of a still-immature kid who felt that all the studying and tests were stressful. After having a few years of real responsibility and serious demands on his time and ability to juggle tasks, take care of his troops, manage budgets, manage heavy vehicle and equipment maintenance, and so on, taking care of only himself and having only to do one thing was a piece of cake.

Response by Chris Grimm made Dec 3 at 2018 12:31 AM

Chris Grimm — Mon, 03 Dec 2018 00:31:42 -0500

This was realy well written, you obviously learned a lot pursuing the English degree.

I’ll be graduating in a few weeks, and I have to agree on the standards. The only classes I ever had an issue with were math and finance classes.

I’m looking to comission after I graduate, but this post makes me wonder if I went in the correct order.

Response by SP5 Arthur Ben Ephraim made Dec 11 at 2018 1:51 PM

SP5 Arthur Ben Ephraim — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:51:37 -0500

US warriors have dumbed down and butchered by military specification Rx Vaccine human experimentation, nevertheless, all is not lost.

Response by SSG Lee Kujawa made Dec 12 at 2018 5:21 PM

SSG Lee Kujawa — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:21:59 -0500

I had no problem with the college atmosphere at all. I started full time as a froshman at 24 after 6 yrs active duty, and graduated with a masters at 30. Loved every minute of it. I went back into the reserves after graduation and did 2 24 month tours as an Army Reserve recruiter and the rest of my 21 yrs for pay purposes as a normal reservist, teacher, micro biologist, and business owner. Had a great work experience but most of all, my Army and college experience was the bomb.

Response by SFC Paul Woodard made Dec 18 at 2018 7:14 PM

SFC Paul Woodard — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 19:14:42 -0500

A spot on observation. I too attended college after the Army, but it was the late 80s and standards still existed. They were even more stringent in graduate school. However, with a daughter who is a sophomore in a Jesuit university in the northeast, what you have described is 100% accurate. Many in her high school class attend universities throughout Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas. To be quite blunt, I don’t know how they made it into college in the first place. They lack both maturity and intellectual clarity and their minds are malleable mush. Hence the easy indoctrination. I lay the fault for this at the feet of parents who didn’t hold their kids to higher academic and intellectual standards, and for not holding their local schools systems accountable for not holding these kids to account. Mike Judge was right: “Idiocracy” is our future, but not too far down the road. Keep the faith, young man. You are not a voice alone in the wilderness.

Scouts Out!

Response by SPC Douglas Thompson made Dec 20 at 2018 7:44 AM

SPC Douglas Thompson — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 07:44:24 -0500

My wife is a professor of chemistry, microbiology, and medical terminology at a state college, what used to be called a junior or community college, and has these problems with students. She proudly states she is saving lives by not passing students, as her courses are pre-requisites for students to move on to nursing school or a PA program. She hands out a syllabus,which is essentially a contract between professor and student, and well over half don't even bother to read it. The rest read it, but a good proportion don't follow it. A specific format is required for research papers, and is ignored by a quarter of the class. The quality of many papers is abysmal. These are supposed to be third and fourth year college students, and grammar, spelling and punctuation i\s frequently at a sixth grade or lower level. The problem obviously starts when they are just kids, middle school age and earlier, with social promotions and not being held accountable for their actions for the bulk of their formative years.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Dec 23 at 2018 3:53 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:53:18 -0500

Not all schools are the same. Not all programs are the same.

Without knowing what school you attended I can not address why your school or program may have felt that way to you.

I will say this. Your pissy attitude about school is a reflection of your ignorance and your bias against "liberals".

Maybe you think Trump is a genius, i do not know, but for a man with an "ivy league" education he sure seems to have a lot of bankruptcies.

I do know this. When compared to every other educational system, the U.S as a whole is nowhere near the top. Canada, the UK, etc all have subsidized higher education. So that "communism" you keep railing against must be doing something right. Same with the Nordic countries, and Germany, Japan, china, and even the Soviet Union.

See when the state pays for the education, they can MANDATE a specific standard, and if that standard is not met, they just remove the fuck up, and add a new student. It is only in universities where the students pay, that the university is beholden to them for sustenance, and thus must lower standards to stay in business. That is your "free market" for you, simple supply and demand. In ignorance people think because the state pays anyone can go, nope that is not how it works. You keno why there are so many Asian students getting educated here? Impel they could not get into a state university in their home state, not because they are not qualified but because their just is not enough room, and so even top students get passed over. Same with why Arabs get educated here, not enough room in the "state" schools.

I read an article recently that said out of Yales 600 million endowment it only spends like 200 million dollars a year on students, and its endowment grew something like 13% this year. Think about that. Why should poor students have to take out student loans to pay for an Ivy League education when universities like Yale, Harvard, and Princeton have plenty of money for financial aid? Why should your education forma n ivy league school cost as much as your house? Again that is your "free market".

Maybe instead of bitching about your educational institution, you spend some time outside the classroom reading books like Plato's republic, Machiavelli's the Prince, John Stuart Mills Utilitarianism, Wealth of Nations, and yes the Communist Manifesto. Have you read these books? Because getting a 121% on an exam might be "annoying" but, you maybe overlooking the fact that while you are super student at a shit university, you are still not getting an education, AND THAT, SIR, WOULD BE PISSING ME OFF MORE.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Dec 24 at 2018 8:20 AM

LTC John Griscom — Mon, 24 Dec 2018 08:20:31 -0500

Great story. Good luck with your endeavors.
Have seen some officers that could not put a paragraph together.
We were told in the 60s that the education system was being taken over by socialists and communists to tear down what our Founding Gathers had established. The two areas that were concentrated on education and journalism.

Response by SrA Shawn Leggitt made Dec 30 at 2018 10:33 PM

SrA Shawn Leggitt — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 22:33:21 -0500

At first I found it difficult to further my education. Now I am in a grove and want to push my intellectual limits.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Jan 17 at 2019 4:25 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:25:54 -0500

Reading through the responses it seems tome that a large majority of the people here have missed an important part of the problem. You can not expect a high standard at university, if the students coming to your from secondary education are deficient.

I am one of the few people, in my opinion, that does not put teachers on pedestals.

Is it commendable for one to choose to teach? Probably, really depends on the person in my opinion; if you suck at what you do, you can not be commended for doing it can you?

However, the problem is that we have neglected the basics in our initial entry training for an academic career. SO too many students going to university, or especially a junior college, are there to play catch up first.

It is this deficiency that causes the survey courses of general ed to be a cake walk the teacher has to make allowances for the deficiency of other students.

I started at the junior college level, and all of the classes i took were transfer level courses that also were applicable to the associate degree. I am not sure if this was the "official" policy or not, but I had one professor who said at the beginning of class, that what he did was graded everyone one the same standard, but at the end of the class if you took a non transferable class, he would bump your overall grade one grade, a D becomes an C and so fourth.

Response by LTC John Bush made Jan 18 at 2019 2:50 PM

LTC John Bush — Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:50:54 -0500

well said. First university educational standards vary widely across the country. Secondly when I entered my university in 1958 we were told half the freshman class would not make it and only about 20 - 30% would actually get their degree.You have matured and learned how to focus on a task and finish it. Most youngsters have not had that experience and you may not have done much better at 18. Having said all that there is a lot of evidence our education system has some major deficiencies. The advent of the massive student loan program has encouraged universities to take almost anyone who will pay and often take their money and leave them with no marketable skills. When government money gets stuffed into any system costs go up and the charlatans and scammers abound.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Jan 23 at 2019 1:24 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Wed, 23 Jan 2019 13:24:33 -0500

Something that occurred to me today, as I was discussing things with my kids, who are now college age, and attending junior college.

The first class i took was a summer class in 1994, it was English 101 freshman composition. First day of class the instructor told us how hard she was going to make the class, because she felt that junior college was not rigorous enough, and she needed to prepare us for places like UC Berkeley. After derided us for a few minutes I raised my hand and asked if she had ever taught anywhere else. To which she replied "No.", and to which i responded, "If you have never taught anywhere else, how do you how hard the work is supposed to be?"

There was another professor who was known around campus for never giving out "A's". He liked to do stuff like pull surprise pop quizzes, especially if there were a number of students missing the class.

I had a math professor who did the same thing, she would mark me down for sloppy work, the answer was right, she knew it and i knew it, but because i wrote the fraction sloppy, she would mark me down, saying "If someone comes behind you and sees this they are going to think the answer is this other thing." to which i responded "No one is going to come behind me, and not check my math." it was a stupid reason, but it was a way for her to feel superior.

There is a difference in deliberate sabotage of a person's academic career because you are angry you were not smart enough or good enough to teach at a university, or maybe even work in your field. And keeping a high standard.

Some of the people here act like they would feel better about themselves if they failed a bunch of classes. Somehow, i don't think that is true. If you did the work, you earned the grade.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Jan 26 at 2019 12:00 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:00:39 -0500

I quit high school and joined the army when was 17. Too many gays. Drugs everywhere. Vietnam was going on. Had to get out of California.

Response by LTC Gary Earls made Jan 26 at 2019 9:49 PM

LTC Gary Earls — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 21:49:43 -0500

As we most of us, the Army "matured" us. Those kids in your classes have never and probably never will experience what you have experienced. You are ahead of them. You know how to be a team player and how to lead a team. Good luck on your future.

Response by SSG Norbert Johnson made Feb 3 at 2019 4:10 PM

SSG Norbert Johnson — Sun, 03 Feb 2019 16:10:34 -0500

SGT Gunderson, I understand your plight and disillusionment so completely except that this disillusionment did not occur in the hear and now but within the past. I too was a bottom feeder in High School graduating number 83 out of 84 graduates. My only choice according to the School Counselor was to Join the Army because at least I could get a set of skills for my service. So after my first Medical Discharge I entered College... a place that I was told I could never enter due to GPA. I saw the College Admissions Counselor and brought in my DD214 as well as my Entry Tests Scores for the Army. She was not impressed that I graduated HS with a low GPA, but things changed when I presented my Test Scores on the Entry exam. With a 97 on my AFQT and the average score over 120, she made an exception (and it might be because I had VA funds for education as well (you never know the driving force for exceptions to the rule until you try... I think it was all for the money).

With my ACT/SAT exam requirement waived, and it only 6 days before the start of the term, I was accepted. Due to the fact that my time in service was cut short the first time, I only had 2 years of VA education benefits, and I had to maximize my efforts to succeed and graduate. I did graduate with 3 Associates Degrees in 2 years and maintain the Dean's Honor List throughout my College experience even with my only "D" grade in Criminal Law (fell asleep in the final exam). I did notice that with every change in focus of minority student recruitment, there existed patterns of changes in requirements to lessen the content and allow for those deemed disadvantaged to be able to pass the coursework. Then came the intro to Remedial courses.. then to Remedial Courses counting toward a Degree, and then the halving of the required coursework to the point of a Bachelor Degree being nothing more in content of knowledge than an Associates Degree (all in the name of diversity and inclusion).

While I saw the reduction of course requirements and lessening the rules on recruitment as a "Window Dressing" to support inclusion of less than qualified individuals, and the degree watered down changing requirements for acceptance to Graduate School occur, did I realize that this was a disservice to not only the qualified but the unqualified in College. For a time that created the stigma of the Graduate of a Lessor Degree thought process of the Minority and/or educationally disadvantaged Graduate. And at times it appeared it was a Degree of Participation and no longer Qualification (depending on the educational institution and field of study). How many times have you heard that mantra of I have a College Degree, then to ask what it was in.. ANSWER: General or Liberal Studies, or Student initiated Studies, or Gender Identity or Women and Minority Studies, etc. Then to ask the question... Did you find a job in that field and to be told 99% of the time "...NO I did not!" Well I have one of those General Studies Degrees and when I tried to use that, well my High School Diploma was worth more to the Employer.

Sometimes we make statements in this forum that others think is outlandish or just isn't exactly right on spot... so since I am Old and no longer have to prove anything.. I thought I would bring PROOF to the table in support of your contention that there COllege is not for everyone and also I emphasize with your disillusions about the educational process being watered down. Now remember this is NOT the fault of the Student, it is the fault of the increased amount of Grants and Loans which increase educational costs to the students for an inferior level of return on investment. The Newspaper clip and the partial transcript review will verify that a Working College Student can take over the minimum coursework required for a standard degree, in fact 2 times the coursework and still maintain Honors... and one time just to prove a point succeed in taking 40 credit hours of College in one Quarter while working part time (20 hr per week), and again maintaining honors (just remember not to fall asleep during finals).

SOmething else to ponder is that the Joint Services Transcript for your military training and experience can shorten your time in College tremendously. I had mine evaluated at Liberty University and was granted 100 Semester hours of College Credit for the JST Transcripted recommendations alone. I suggest everyone on this board have their JST Transcript reviewed by a college to see how much their Military training and experience equates toward a College degree. You might be very surprised as I was.

Response by MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht made Feb 10 at 2019 3:16 PM

MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 15:16:32 -0500

I too went to school after I retired. To many TDY's to get any education while in the service. I never found anything like what you are talking about. ALL grades were "hard" learned. (why I never got an A) LOL. I agree a Colledge education is not for everone. My son is a truck driver and can make $100,000 + if he wants to be away from home that much. All it takes is to pass a physical and test. No specified education , or language required. When I finally got my MBA I was to old and to qualified. BUT, I can take it to the grave with me and no one can take it away from me. Nuff said!!

Response by MSgt Thelbert (Whitey) Roark made Feb 10 at 2019 8:25 PM

MSgt Thelbert (Whitey) Roark — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 20:25:03 -0500

Can’t argue with anything that you said. I went back to school about three years after I retired. IIRC I was 43 years old when I started. I couldn’t believe how easy things were. I never really understood how it was possible to score over 100% on some of the tests either. Never had much trouble arguing with the teachers after the first semester. They figured out that I was older than all but one of my instructors and that although I lacked the degrees, I had more general knowledge than any of them. I graduated high school in 1965 and they actually required you to learn things back then. I ended up graduating with honors and didn’t have to work that hard to do it. This was accomplished while being a single parent with two kids in high school and holding down a part time job. I actually found my Command NCO Academy more difficult, and that only lasted 3 months.
I do hope things improve before my grandson starts college. But, I fear it is only a pipe dream.

Response by MSgt James Lindsey made Feb 13 at 2019 6:54 PM

MSgt James Lindsey — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 18:54:27 -0500

This one finely written article. I miss the military. It was an excellent training camp for understanding the importance of being human. Thank you

Response by SGT Rafael Morales made Feb 14 at 2019 5:49 PM

SGT Rafael Morales — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:49:48 -0500

I went to college after serving in the Army in Vietnam. The choice of a university is key to the enjoyment of the college years. I went to St. John´s University; a private, catholic university where we had to really sweat our grades in the business curriculum. I did not get any breaks for being hispanic nor did any minority students. This meant that my degree was as good as anybody´s. I had a fantastic relationship with my professors and fellow students which I have always treasured. I had to work because the tuition was high and spent many sleepless nights finishing papers and studying for tests. I can look at my bachelor´s diploma with pride even at my old age of 73.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2019 8:57 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Mar 2019 20:57:02 -0500

While a student at The Ohio State University, I was older and a member of the Army National Guard. As an older student, I was surprised to find the liberal slant in the classroom and had to choose my battles/classes wisely. The more liberal the professor, the more memorization and regurgitation and less debate on philosophy (play along to get along). I learned this after earning a few battle scars, defending conservative ideology and earning reduced grades, as a result. So, either I sacrificed GPA to argue against progressive socialism or bite my tongue and adapt. Fortunately, adapting is a skill actually required in the world, whereas most of the classes I attended were not.

Fast forward 20 years and a graduate degree, I am teaching graduate courses online for an MBA program. My course was Operations Management, which is standard problem solving for the military as well as a College Introduction class for new grad students. In both classes, I required two writing assignments (a personal bio and problem statement). I published a grading rubric ahead for each assignment and provided a week to write both documents and submit. The purpose of the assignments were to learn more about the students, identify a problem they would solve during the course of the class and determine their writing skills. Grading on each of these assignments was 50% grammar, structure and APA compliance and 50% fulfillment of the assignment.

What I found during this first week assignment was an inability by most students to write clearly and meet the standards. With a class size of 12 for each course, I routinely had 2-4 students receive the lowest grade allowed ('C') with few 'A' grades. At least one student dropped the course because of the emphasize on writing proper documents that were grammatically correct and intelligible, while others complained that they had a 4.0 GPA and deserved a better score. Most adapted.

Fortunately, once the 'entitled' students dropped, the course focused on learning. Students learned that communicating, in the proper form, using industry preferred language and focused on informing or persuading was just as important as solving problems. Most learned as much about writing and presenting ideas as they did about formal problem solving. Many maintained contact after the class for mentorship during the remainder of their coursework and even after graduating.

Unfortunately, in the 20 years since I taught these classes, colleges have become more liberal, more focused on setting the bar lower and more intent on trading classwork for money (tuition). College is a business, focused more on revenue generation and throughput (graduations) than quality. Colleges and Universities (private and public) have become so focused on money, that they have traded quality for quantity. Worse, our government has decided to enable this by guaranteeing student loans and the endless stream of cash required to continue the indoctrination of students. It is no wonder that we have surging student debt and unemployable students.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Mar 13 at 2019 1:31 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:31:38 -0400

College has become a substitute for landowner status in the military. That way we get to maintain the old class system. Upper class people (well, rich, but that's our modern upper classs) go to college and give the orders, a substitute for the old British system of buying rank and giving the orders. Neither is actually much preparation for giving orders, but at least the old British aristocracy did give one the experience of ordering peasants around.

Both generally just mean your daddy has money, or at least more money than those who can't afford college.

On the other hand, at least in our paradigm, one can break into the upper class (people wealthy enough to send their kids to college) by making good decisions--IE, place getting a college degree above all else, and by especially not getting married at an early age if your daddy ain't rich. This paragraph is to answer in advance all those who "made it on their own". It's possible to do, but it isn't generally done.

In the old time Brit militaries, some one rich but not of the aristocracy could become an officer, but would never be accepted by other officers as "one of us". Just exactly like "ring knockers" whose parents have enough influence to get their kids into one of the academies.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. People are people to the extent that the Soviets even had their version of this, THEIR upper class was the Party elite. So as soon as the peasants revolt, they replace the rich upper class with the Party upper class and all that really changes is the individuals on top.

I'm so glad I'm out of that shit. Yeah, I'm out of it, not just the military but I no longer have to be concerned about doing what any other person requires me to do. Governments, yes, they can order me around, but not other individuals.

Except my wife. And then only until I get tired of her shit.

Response by MAJ Rj M made Mar 26 at 2019 2:17 PM

MAJ Rj M — Tue, 26 Mar 2019 14:17:53 -0400

This is well written and totally correct. But having gotten two master's in health adminstration and informatics, I can tell you that the same practices occur there, only worse

Response by MAJ Rj M made Mar 26 at 2019 2:58 PM

MAJ Rj M — Tue, 26 Mar 2019 14:58:13 -0400

YOu're a liberal arts major..to be honest, those graduate degrees ARE alot harder to come by for the most part because they DO require alot of critical thinking..and also..friends of mine who have MAT's, and MA's in history, economics, language, etc do say that alot of the programs were in fact VERY hard. and MS programs in the hard sciences are quite complex and challenging as well. I will say that the business side of things for the most part is more degree mill from my experience..then again, I went into alot of the classes with knowledge many of my peers--including those who held full time jobs..did not have.....I think being ex-military gives you an upper hand in many respects...

Response by CPT Keith Whitter made Apr 15 at 2019 10:19 AM

CPT Keith Whitter — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 10:19:14 -0400

I enjoyed my college experience. It was unusual. I had already served six years enlisted, was married with a child and two jobs on top of a full load in college. It was a busy productive time.
In short, having a background of high production in the military and learning to overcome whatever was placed in front of me made a huge difference in my college experience.

Response by PO2 David Ball made Apr 18 at 2019 7:40 PM

PO2 David Ball — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:40:45 -0400

In Technical Schools you must do the work.. That is even more so for schools leading to an Airframes and Powerplants License of which must meet F.A.A. standards. Hell even missed class time results in homework covering the material that would have been learned during class.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Apr 20 at 2019 2:34 PM

PV2 Glen Lewis — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 14:34:42 -0400

I hadn't graduated high school at all before I enlisted in the Army. I'd been living on the street for a little more than 2 years. I decided I didn't want to put up with the lessons and rules and quit. My dad said if I was old enough to make that decision I was old enough to support myself. The Army made me realize that education was important and discipline and order were essential to any kind of success in life so after being discharged I got a GED and went to college for a couple semesters and then a Vo-Tech afterward. I started a paint and drywall business afterward and was fairly successful. Then I went to another Vo-Tech and learned to use and repair computers. The skills I learned in the Vo-techs were what gave me abilities to succeed although the college course didn't do many any harm so on that point I tend to agree with you. The order and discipline I came to respect in the Army were what made my appreciation for education and working for an end possible in my opinion. My dad told me he respected that and I was, after 20 years welcome in his home. That most definitely would not have happened without the Army's influence.
As far as the falling standards in our in educational system, we're using a part of that right now. Kids don't have to study anymore. They find the answers on the internet, copy them with a few twists and turns so they will look like they studied and get the grades needed to complete their classes and move along to the next level. The fact that many of those teaching their classes did the same thing to get where they are is one of the reasons that standards are lowered and our educational level is slipping in the worldwide ratings. This is just my opinion of course but seeing my friend's children doing exactly that give credence to it for me at least.

Response by LCpl Frank Baines made Apr 20 at 2019 11:53 PM

LCpl Frank Baines — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 23:53:49 -0400

The problem in our country is it is moving away from God, and away from His Word. This country is being influenced by the author of liars, Satan and his fellow fallen angels. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness and high places," Ehesians 6:12. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him," Hebrews, 11:16. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," 1 John 1:9. "For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?", Mark 8:36. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life," John 3:16.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2019 4:47 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:47:48 -0400

Colleges today are nothing more than High School 2.0. The more kids that go to college and the more that stay for a full four year means more money for the university. The easier and 'funner' colleges are the more potential students will apply to go there. It all about money.

Response by SFC James Asbill made May 2 at 2019 10:31 PM

SFC James Asbill — Thu, 02 May 2019 22:31:38 -0400

I totally agree ... It certainly applies to my experience as a vet in their 50's going back

Response by 1stLt Steven P. made May 26 at 2019 9:34 PM

1stLt Steven P. — Sun, 26 May 2019 21:34:36 -0400

You have seen the way college education has deteriorated. Even in the 70s, there has been grade padding. It seems that the education profession is more concerned with bringing in the tuition and getting tenure than really educating the students.
How many of your courses were taught by teacher assistants/graduate students? It was one of my concerns when getting my undergraduate degree. I hope that your experience in graduate school is better, mine was.
With the scandal going on now in higher education (buying entry into different colleges, having someone else take your child's SAT or ACT it seems parents are encouraging this inappropriate type of action. Ethics and educational excellence appear to be something of the past. The educational institutions are helping in the dumbing down of America.

Response by 1st Lt Padre Dave Poedel made May 28 at 2019 1:18 AM

1st Lt Padre Dave Poedel — Tue, 28 May 2019 01:18:44 -0400

Your experience parallels mine, though in the 1970’s it wasn’t as bad. How do I know? I taught college for 30 years after my active duty. I had a unique experience: I was hired to teach Emergency Medical Technicians. Back in 1975, there were no degrees in this area, so I was literally teaching and attending the same college after being hired. I then completed my Associate, and then transferred and completed a Bachelor and then Master’s degree. My master’s enabled me to branch off to teaching anatomy & physiology. Then I entered the Lutheran ministry, earning a doctorate. So, yes after active duty I was older than my classmates and had a lot more life experience and maturity. I was blessed to teach older students in anatomy & physiology who were returning to school to become nurses, physician assistants or dental hygienists. They were amazing! I met their spouses, their kids, often baptized their kids, did weddings, and even their family funerals. It was very rewarding until I switched to day classes and got 18 year olds. Oh my goodness! This was the early 20000’s and since my doctorate was in pastoral care, I deduced to complete my career at the college by taking a transfer and becoming a Counselor. WOW, I continued to be amazed that the younger and younger students were without reading, writing or math skills. I retired by buying active duty time and went into ministry full time.

Military or veteran college students were so much more mature, as they had to make decisions that impacted their future before. Lately however, I have heard that vets are not as willing to take responsibility for themselves. I read about snowflake kids and can’t understand how you can be a veteran and a snowflake....then I read here how the culture has changed.....but it just can’t be THAT bad, can it?

Response by SPC Robert Bobo made Jun 5 at 2019 9:58 AM

SPC Robert Bobo — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 09:58:46 -0400

I learned quit a bit from the college instructors with REAL world work experience, some of the ones teaching based on theory ( never been in work force) use piss me off as some of there comments were not based in reality

Response by CPT Michael Theimer made Jun 11 at 2019 11:06 PM

CPT Michael Theimer — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 23:06:01 -0400

I have to agree with you. I worked for my degree back in the late 60s and early 70s. I became an adjunct professor for a for-profit 'university' in 2010. The 'university' hired corporate experienced adjunct professors that brought real life views of the civilian working world which was more valuable than a PhD with no real world experience. However, as adjunct professors we were expected to 'work with' low performing students to help insure that they would continue taking course$$ and graduate.

The attitude of several in each class was, as you said, 'I paid for my passing grade' and don't have to work for it. I always failed one in my classes and in the 'instructor evaluations' by those failed students rated me very low, skewing my overall 'student happiness index'.

My students went away learning something, but my students all said that I was the hardest teacher at the university. Word of mouth got out and students avoided signing up for my course (Small Business Management). I went from 34 students per course to 6 or less. The majority looking for 'easy grades'. I eventually left the 'university', because the student work ethic was so low and the corporate management expected adjuncts to attend mandatory training with no compensation.

I was also a corporate college recruiter for many years back in the 80s and 90s. I was shocked at the misspellings and poor grammar in so called high school graduates' job applications. I saw this coming back then.

I will say that the Interns that I have hired and worked with in the last 10 years have been the exception. Most were hard workers and achievers. I could depend on them to get things done as long as I gave them good direction and the training necessary. They confirmed the issues with other students and many of the 'tenured' PhD professors.

China's education program is producing more and better educated graduates. China will eventually surpass the US in innovation, technology, manufacturing, scientific advancement, wealth generation, quality of life, etc. The US should be concerned about this eventuality.

Response by Cpl Michael Littleton made Jun 14 at 2019 11:01 PM

Cpl Michael Littleton — Fri, 14 Jun 2019 23:01:19 -0400

At 18 I was in college with 3 jobs. I wanted to be a Marine Officer. I couldn’t afford to continue college. Way to expensive. I then joined the Marines as Enlisted. I had the best of mentors. The SNCO’s and Officers I reported directly with not only were teachers but gave me opportunities to make leadership decisions on my own way above my pay grade. After the GulfWar I used my GI bill for the computer industry in its prime. With only my high school and the outstanding skills learned in the Corps. I excelled very quick. Ever job I have ever held after the Marines required a Masters or better degree. I have a waiver from the top corporations college kids wish for. Att, Sony, Universal, HP, Disney. They all called me. I am not saying a degree is unnecessary. But it looks like everyone has one which degrades it’s worth. But a Marine that shows no challenge is to overwhelming with an answer before speaking wins the day. It’s funny. I still know I would have made a great Officer. My highest honor I have earned was the Blood Stripe’s. It’s also great to be an Executive at Disney but the Stripes our rank a title!

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Jun 16 at 2019 12:13 AM

CSM Carl Cunningham — Sun, 16 Jun 2019 00:13:26 -0400

So, what school was this.....sounds like I need to go there.......

Response by Sgt R Golds made Jul 2 at 2019 3:24 PM

Sgt R Golds — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 15:24:03 -0400

Not meaning any offense to you by saying this. I’m an engineering student. If you wanted scholastics filled with attrition you should have gone into the math and sciences. Trust me, professors don’t give a fuck still, and they crush the souls of those that fall behind.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 6 at 2019 4:01 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 16:01:56 -0400

I think it helps to understand yourself and your values.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 6 at 2019 5:39 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 17:39:24 -0400

My experience is similar so I just shine all that much more. Sad, truly sad.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Aug 11 at 2019 2:06 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 14:06:25 -0400

"The traditional 4 year degree should not be sought by everyone"---I agree 100%. But in the military, that is the only way to be an officer. Perhaps OCS should be accessible through a test. I would suggest an IQ test, and a demonstration/performance eval based on real-world decisions that have been made in history. I remember hearing pilots talking about another pilot having "a degree in underwater basketweaving and being too stupid to do anything but fly." Their comment, not mine. Was kinda counter-intuitive, I had thought flying would be a very intelligent activity....

America is still very class-conscious. If you have a degree, you are upper-class, I know some will argue, but that's my opinion. There is nothing I could have done better than have a degree when I was early 20's to insure my financial success. I stumbled onto contract security and made more in the last few years I worked than I did the whole rest of my life, but if I had a degree, i would have made about twice what I did even during that period.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Aug 12 at 2019 1:28 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:28:33 -0400

I'm on contract in the mid-2000's, OEF. Giving actual salaries here because it was a while ago, I was in a job paying 138k. Job paying 225k comes up. I'm overqualified, if anything, and the people want to (internal) hire me, but the "customer" (USDOS) has specified a Bachelors as minimum. Didn't get it, of course.

So, I'm back in OEF, different company, couple years later. All the time there is and good internet (Camp Blackhorse), and more or less because of the above, I decided to finish my 4 year degree. Didn't need much. Signed up with Phoenix. Had to write papers, had to read other students papers. Students couldn't spell and had no idea what grammar was. There was one female in the internet class who was really anti-gun. Kept talking about the "right to BARE arms"...after the teacher didn't say anything and the spelling/use hadn't been corrected, I very nicely mention it to the student, really just being nice to her because she was stupid, and we end up in a discussion where she nearly goes off on me for daring to tell her she was wrong. I had to go over "bare", bear (carry) and bear (the animal) and I swear she never really understood. At one point she went off on a tangent that baring (she spelled it bareing) arms was like when you see someone roll up their sleeves before a fight (never saw that outside a movie) and that was aggressive and guns are aggressive...then she went to bears (no shit) are mean an guns are mean so it has to be that. I quit that discussion. I may have been slightly patronizing at the end. In todays parlance no doubt I was also "mansplaining". It was on an open forum and the teacher ignored it.

But this was a 26 year old woman who nearly had a Bachelors, had graduated high school, and had already finished most of her college. I suppose the teacher couldn't be bothered because she was probably aware of the problem and didn't care because it's everywhere.

But that was net, and the prof was a neutral entity who really did nothing but assign work. How, in the fuck, could one deal with that every day in person and with the prof driving the clown car?

Response by CSM William Everroad made Aug 21 at 2019 11:14 AM

CSM William Everroad — Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:14:58 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson Interesting topic and discussion comments. I know this post is over a year old, but I have had serious conversations with Soldiers attempting to complete college courses on AD and in conjunction with reserve benefits.
Like Lt Col Charlie Brown and LTC Kevin B., I would have to disagree with your broad assertion of the watering down of higher education. It is simple economics. There are more young people graduating high school now than ever before, the demand for college education is higher, and thus quality institutions can not keep up. To fill that demand, universities are growing too rapidly and new ones are popping up every year. Accrediting bodies can not keep up, and thus reviews of curriculum and performance become less intensive or more infrequent. Some institutions slip through the cracks or seek out "lower quality" accreditation.
I will also disagree with your view and characterization of personal beliefs of professors and your fellow students as vile. Disagreement and conversation is the heart of higher education. If you found opportunities to share your point of view and were able to disagree with opinions presented, you successfully engaged in the academic enterprise. I would dare say you got your money's worth. Conversely, if you were uncomfortable with the opinions of others and dismissed them out of hand, you missed the point. It is the duty of educators to stretch students' perception of the world around them by challenging their beliefs. Indoctrination is not mandatory, life is about choices. If student's don't question what is presented to them, that is their problem, not yours.
I will, however, agree with your statement "four year degrees should not be sought by everyone". I think the societal concept of 'college = success' is being leveraged to make higher education seem like an entitlement or right (which leads to ideas such as free education or repayment of student loans). This can be evidenced by extreme shortages in many states of skilled trade professionals. But, trade work isn't glamorized in popular culture. More and more students cite the college experience as one of the top reasons for going there in the first place.
Do bad institutions and professors exist? Sure, but the CHE and DOE at the state and federal levels are trying hard to crack down on predatory colleges and accrediting bodies are constantly revisiting evaluation standards to ensure learning outcomes are being enforced. University departments are trying to find new and creative ways to evaluate teaching effectiveness that improves the student outcomes and do not rely solely on grade distribution and student evaluations of teachers while reducing bias in the results. If you know a better way, get involved. But, I would say that if you found your college experience lacking and way too easy, you shot at a target below your weight class.
Using your college experience to label the entire higher education industry is tantamount to using your '99 Kia Rio to suggest that automakers aren't making an effort to design quality driving machines.

Response by SPC(P) Brandon Jenkins made Mar 22 at 2020 11:45 PM

SPC(P) Brandon Jenkins — Sun, 22 Mar 2020 23:45:15 -0400

Well, my education was in English as well. My classes were pretty tough though, and I wasnt cut any slack.