So why is it 2nd LTs get such a bad rap?

2015-11-10T09:57:42-05:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoUkh1wpxxg

Stupid shit that 2nd LT's say

We all know what it's like to get a new LT... http://gruntstyle.com/

Response by MSgt Daniel Attilio made Nov 10 at 2015 10:11 AM

2015-11-10T10:11:35-05:00

The occasional statement "well in my experience" - poor choice of words sir, poor choice of words.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2015 10:19 AM

2015-11-10T10:19:17-05:00

Most of the ones I've had to deal with are ROTC graduates who know nothing about the Army outside of what they were taught and really good at micromanaging. Luckily right now 2LT I have now has a pretty good head on his shoulders and lets us NCOs do our job.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Nov 10 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-11-10T10:33:19-05:00

Darn Lts are as smart as your freshest E1 but get payed the same as an E5/6. When the Lt tells you to do something, you just say, "Yes sir," and then go and find your Sergeant and ask him if you really need to do it.

(I kid of course, I have known some great Lts since I have been in.)

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-11-10T10:42:12-05:00

Because butter is bad for you? Lol!

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Nov 10 at 2015 11:39 AM

2015-11-10T11:39:22-05:00

2Lt's are like young sheep, that required the 1SGT to assign and NCO to mentor and protect the 2LT from the Specialist Mafia (Big Bad Wolf), also from prior service 1Lts that tell the 2Lt to ask the NCO's for elbow grease.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Nov 10 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-11-10T12:39:09-05:00

From the perspective of the Canoe Club, the problem with Ensigns (O-1) is that by "regs" they have authority, but they have no skill set, especially on a submarine. In any situation where experience makes the difference between success and failure, it's too risky to follow someone who has no experience. In the Navy, our Chief Petty Officers (E7-E9) usually act as a buffer in daily situations, but on board a ship in the middle of a casualty, you can't count on having one "lying around". In a "soldier" or "marine" environment, I would assume that there's a senior sergeant somewhere with the platoon...

They are non-useful bodies (NUBs) yet command respect. That's not an easy thing to swallow for Prima Donna nuclear / submarine Petty Officers who've been-there-done-that with the HARDWARE of operating a nuclear plant / submarine.

Just my experience from back in the day ('83-'89)...

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 10 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-11-10T15:16:01-05:00

Being an inexperienced officer with three or four months experience put in charge of men with 10-15 years’ experience is no easy task either. You want to support your men and you don't want to be a damn fool; both difficult tasks to pull off with zero experience.

I was fortunate to have a top NCOIC in my first assignment who trained me well. He would come in to my office and tell me about a problem and ask what I wanted him to do about it. I would tell him what I thought, and he would say "Right away sir" and start for the door.

Then he would pause at the door and say "Sir, if we do that and this happens, what then"? I hadn't thought of that, so I would suggest that we do a second thing instead, and he would say "Right away, sir", and leave. I would find out later that he had already done that second thing a couple of days earlier, but he just wanted me to tell him to do the right thing for the right reasons.

He could just as easily have destroyed my career by just keeping his mouth shut and letting me hang myself with my own ignorance. As it was, he made me look competent until I became so. There is nothing I would not have done to support and defend him from then on out; as far as I was concerned he walked on water.

It is a team effort; just as it is important for an officer to watch out for and support his men, it is just as important for the men to support their officers wherever they can. It is a two-way street in any well run outfit.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2015 11:14 PM

2015-11-10T23:14:09-05:00

Folks tend to forget that new SMs will think they know it all, until humbled by circumstances and the experienced. In just a few years, the spike in responsibility/accountability can be substantial. Remember that the young LT you give grief to, is quite possibly your future Commander. Help them grow, and be professional always.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 11 at 2015 1:07 AM

2015-11-11T01:07:29-05:00

Good 'ol LT Dick... I think he was based on our very own CPT Private RallyPoint Member or possibly CPT L S! :) I jest of course!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2015 7:34 AM

2015-11-11T07:34:32-05:00

wait .... in Navy we do have mustang, I think the same for other branch .... right? ... so not all of them are stupid inexperienced :).

Response by MSG David Chappell made Nov 11 at 2015 9:04 AM

2015-11-11T09:04:39-05:00

They get a bad rap and is unfortunate I think much of it has to do with simple inexperience my commander used hand every new lieutenant a chemstick. And a simple explanation your military career Will be full of new learning experiences this is the first and only time you'll ever hear me say this to use this Chemstick you must break it to make it work

Response by CPT(P) David Thorp made Nov 11 at 2015 1:17 PM

2015-11-11T13:17:00-05:00

Not Mustangs

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 8:48 AM

2015-11-12T08:48:28-05:00

Haha if you cant poke fun at yourself then grow some skin. I was just like this character hard charging and saying stupid stuff. Tradoc tends to wind you up pretty good prior to your first post. Even as prior service the mystical powers of the golden bar have an effect on ones brain :)

Response by SGM William Gabbard made Nov 28 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-11-28T12:27:42-05:00

My three favorite O3s (two academy, one ROTC) were all properly mentored and have a healthy respect for NCOs. Of course, it helped a little that two of them are my sons, and the third married my daughter...

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Nov 28 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-11-28T15:07:41-05:00

With great power and inexperience comes great risk. There is no fool proof way to develop the experience and mettle the officer needs without permitting opportunity, initiative and failure. Even those who did well in the ranks have much new to learn as your officers.

Perhaps the combination of Chinese characters for Danger and Opportunity may be used in a new context here, as the Opportuniy to hone and develop the necessary leadership skills for the future is accompanied by the Danger (risks to the unit, peers and subordinates) associated with risk which comes with inexperience, preconceptions, new authorities and the expectations (or lack thereof) of your officers. Hence the impossible to understate need for seasoned professional mentors (NCO/Petty Officer) mentors.

In my experience the future success of a new officer is directly linked to the quality of their NCO. Senior officers are important, as are the lessons learned from success and failure at a thousand different levels. However it is the NCO who is typically with the newly minted officer day in and day out who will, in my opinion, have the greatest impact.

In closing I will cite two examples of which I have first hand knowledge that perhaps illustrate the challenges of being a new officer:

The challenge when you have no mentor to assist or advise:

Fate has smiled upon you (!?)' you are a new Lieutenant assigned to as a Battalion primary staff officer (O-3 position) and you are the only O-1 in the unit. There are no other lieutenants in the entire Battalion. You report to your first staff meeting and the Battalion Commander says to the room "I realize you are my S-"X" however, in my opinion new Lieutenants are to be seen and not heard, so do not speak unless I ask you a direct question"

The danger:

When the discussion between a young Lieutenant and a Command Sergenat Major goes into interesting territories when the CSM asked the LT why anyone should do anything he has asked of them, given his lack of experience.

Well CSM, I may it know much, after all I am just a butter bar. However, I do know that I am the lowest ranking officer present who can place you in jail! [Note: This did end well for all].

Response by SGT Dana Williams made Nov 28 at 2015 3:10 PM

2015-11-28T15:10:16-05:00

The two most dangerous things in the military is a PFC with a clipboard and a 2LT with a compass! Both are wielding instruments they lack the maturity to properly use.

Response by SPC Kortney Kistler made Nov 28 at 2015 9:56 PM

2015-11-28T21:56:35-05:00

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Response by CMSgt Tom Ledbetter made Nov 29 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-11-29T10:42:32-05:00

I can't remember a young Lt. of either gold or silver bar that I didn't train right. They were my responsibility and I took care of that responsibility. Doesn't our senior enlisted ranks still do that. Make that Lt. into a Capt/Maj you want to serve with again! B^)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-11-29T18:44:49-05:00

The young LTs just need some mentoring. If they just listen to the seasoned NCOs they turn out great. I have served with some great LTs that went on to be great CO's and Majors that I would serve again with no questions asked

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-11-29T18:44:56-05:00

Response by SGT Dusty Roth made Dec 1 at 2015 9:03 AM

2015-12-01T09:03:07-05:00

I had a 2LT who became my platoon leader. The first month or two he would ask, "Sgt Roth, what is that? Sgt Roth, how does that work? Sgt Roth, may I touch this?"
He was annoying, and always looking over my shoulder. I could barely get away from him. Because of this curiosity and thirst for knowledge, he became an excellent 1LT. The tables turned rather quickly. Best officer I ever followed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 11:37 AM

2015-12-01T11:37:27-05:00

Thing I have found is that every 2LT is different some of them got the fact that I was there to train, lead and mentor them until they could walk on their own. Some just wanted to be in charge and it didn't matter. The latter of the two usually would usually come around when it came to question and answer time with higher ups. I have only had one that just didn't get it.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-12-02T16:07:50-05:00

I just clean stuff

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 11:11 PM

2015-12-02T23:11:55-05:00

2LT rank is the best! Being prior service I had lots of opportunities of leadership. Being a 2LT I get to play that LT card rather often.

It's fun to also allow my platoon to blame the LT.

All jokes aside, I enjoy being a LT and joking with the troops while having a professional working environment. I don't know how much of that I will have when I get further in my career.

Response by SPC Brian Bay made Jan 7 at 2016 4:14 PM

2016-01-07T16:14:59-05:00

1. Because they can.
2. Because in a way, it's necessary

If you establish a precedence of how you will be eaten alive if you act like a jack-ass, then it creates the motivation and even an ice-breaking opportunity to use that to connect with your subordinate leadership and the troops. I mean a good leader will show confidence in his incompetence - meaning that he/she will openly admit that they have a lot to learn without feeling inferior or weakening their self-esteem.

I openly admit to not knowing everything and when I would approach subordinate personnel, I would ask for their help or an explanation. People are more likely to do something if they are asked and more so inclined if there is a compliment beforehand (i.e.- "I hear that you're the subject matter ninja at this, I'm supposed to give a brief, etc, etc, etc, can you help me understand how this does XYZ?") In this you're providing them the opportunity to add value to you. Be sure to give the proper accolades for your success. I take pride in edifying and uplifting those subordinate to me and I have the confidence in my leadership approach.

I say this because I learned from a West-Point Graduate (as he was a 2LT then) after I joked about him being a 'Ring-knocker'. He laughed and told me about how he wants to learn about how things worked; whenever he came to me with a question, he would always make a joke about himself (I left the instructions in my other butter-bar, etc) but he was always appreciative of any help that I gave him. there was a time that I caught some shit about the barracks room and we were supposed to have some inspection as corrective action.

The 2LT was not part of my direct chain of command; when I let him know what was going on, he was like, "I got in trouble all the time at The Point, I'm the king of prepping for room inspection. Meet me after work and I'll give you a hand." He also went to bat for me on several occasions when unit politics were giving me the business and ran interference when needed. It's was awesome when he asked my NCOIC for me to be "tasked out for a detail" (making it sound like something shitty) then he's like, let's go have a long lunch.