Social Media Etiquette

2014-03-22T13:42:55-04:00

Saw this on Facebook today. I simply can't understand how people think this is ok.

***link removed so as to not feed attention seeking behavior***

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2014 12:01 AM

2014-02-26T00:01:06-05:00

Lack of professionalism and discipline. People are looking for bad things not the good. Go Delaware!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2014 12:20 AM

2014-02-26T00:20:16-05:00

<p>In addition to SSG Graves' point about professionalism and discipline I would have to add common sense as well.</p><p>When you post anything on a public forum which is viewed by the world, one needs to take a moments pause and ask themselves if it's a good idea to do so.</p><p>I was corrected earlier in the day for my choice of words I used to title a discussion I initiated where I potentially labeled the Soldier involved in the latest controversy. I should have thought a little harder and taken a moments pause before I posted, but that's a lesson learned for me.</p><p>The point is that common sense doesn't seem to be so common anymore which coupled with a lack of enforcement of discipline is a huge problem. There is nothing wrong with using social media. I think we can all agree on that, but Soldiers today want to show off for their battle buddies and since they see other Soldiers get away with infractions that should be enforced they follow the crowd and repeat the process. </p><p> </p><p>I have already decided that I will brief my platoon this weekend on the damaging effects and potential repercussions of their mis-use of social media. I think I may even go so far as to put it on a developmental counseling just to cover the bases.</p>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2014 12:22 AM

2014-02-26T00:22:28-05:00

While I typically don t like to cuss on this forum, this cliche goes hand in hand with the current issue- Don't run an alligator mouth with that tadpole ass.

Basically-don t be posting pictures of stupid crap on facebook, and then become a coward and refuse to accept responsibility for your actions...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2014 6:18 PM

2014-02-26T18:18:20-05:00

another thing I would like to bring up, is that all of these incidents these Soldiers are involved with... One may say that it is just the JR Enlisted or the younger generations being stupid, but with incidents occurring all the time from our SR leadership and COC why is it that only the JR's are being chastized? If you have not seen this video, its pretty awful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut5zTAapPXQ I really feel bad for the guy, but WTF was that COC thinking by doing this? And you know he wasn't the first one. One cannot just blame the JR's when its the SR's "leading by example".

Soldier Hit in Chest with Wooden Mallet Collaspe, Army Hazing Incident (Caught on Tape)

A soldier from Michigan who was struck with a large, wooden mallet at his Army base in North Carolina was seriously injured, his father said, expressing ange...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 7:42 AM

2014-02-27T07:42:14-05:00

*What are Everyones

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 27 at 2014 7:45 AM

2014-02-27T07:45:40-05:00

Honestly, I think we as a people just love a good show. We move from one outrage to the next, shaking our fists and decrying our society, but really we're just audience members on the Jerry Springer show. We boo, we taunt, but in the end, we love our entertainment.

There will continue to be drama because we seek it. It's entertaining...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 7:46 AM

2014-02-27T07:46:49-05:00

This is a pretty hot topic and it is getting way out of control. Leaders need to instill a greater sense of professionalism in our younger troops. There must be more emphasis placed on discipline and respect for the Army values. Start holding these younger soldiers accountable for their actions and you will see a change.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 9:04 AM

2014-02-27T09:04:56-05:00

Instant worldwide access is obviously beyond many young Soldier's capabilities. That type of access requires forethought and restraint, traits often lacking in the younger generation (and some older generation, for that matter). What we, as Army leaders do about it is another matter. Short of banning the use of social media (which opens a whole new realm of problems), I don't think we are going to be able to stop the idiots who are currently embarrasing us. The best we can do is try to train as many as possible to think before they post and ask one simple question, "Could this post be seen as embarrassing to the military?" If that question is too complex or esoteric for them, they can always resort to the selfish version, "Could this get me in trouble?"

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Feb 27 at 2014 11:46 AM

2014-02-27T11:46:11-05:00

Social media has been an issue since Myspace was a "big deal". Its getting more attention now because of Groups like US Army WTF Moments taking the initiative, and putting these Soldiers on blast. I think they are doing an awesome job at catching and identifying these Soldiers and usually getting it to someone in their chain of command. The Soldiers think that because they have their privacy settings on, and they are not friends with their leaders that no one will ever know. Now with the increased exposure I think that some of them may be getting the Idea, those of them who actually read the news papers. I personally think we should go back to publishing redacted UCMJ proceedings in the company areas, not just from the unit but from around the Army, with various offenses. Maybe then some of these young Soldiers will grasp the consequences of their actions.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 11:52 AM

2014-02-27T11:52:40-05:00

Honestly it all comes down to personal accountability and responsibility. As a person from said generation that grew up with MySpace, Facebook, and the internet in general here's the facts. The unfortunate truth is that people who grew up in this generation suffer from what they feel is an untouchable anonimity. Wahtever they post on social media is untouchable in the real world (ex. You got a problem, fight me in real life scrub). Now what isnt translating is the fact that all these actions have VERY real consequences and I honestly wish the Army would have stepped in a lot sooner to set down some ground rules. Younger people are goiong to be idiots on Social media until the consequences are hit down hard and fast. That's the very sad and real truth.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 11:58 AM

2014-02-27T11:58:17-05:00

I feel like never have so many negative influences been targeted at our future generations. Twitter, Facebook, Smartphones, Fancy Advertisements, Solicitations, Credit Card Applications with Zero Interest, PG-13 Movies for younger Soldiers should very well be rated R. Growing up in High School being exposed to all of these things it builds into someones character. Great they turn 18 and we hope Basic training enforces NEW STANDARDS. The older Soldiers excuse I suppose is, they are just trying to play catch up with the technology and constantly distracted by it. Even though seriously, if your computer doesn't have a CAC reader installed on it your Army career isn't going to go that far, lol.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 27 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-02-27T12:30:56-05:00

I came into the service during the Cold War...Berlin Wall was still standing, East vs West, and NO social media. I was in a short range tac nuke unit. We were given lots of briefings about opsec, comsec, etc... There was not a huge internet presence, so IF people got in trouble, it was more for bounced checks then poor choices posting stuff on social media. That was also back in the day where a camera was a camera and used FILM. No digital media and a phone could NOT take a picture. I think part of the problem is that there is not a limiting factor that SLOWS them down. The youngsters that are coming in now, may not have enough understanding of the military to know when to 'hold their cards close'....lets face it, we have ALL done and thought stuff that would rank up there with some of the stuff posted...however, we have pushed past the point that we have to post it.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 27 at 2014 1:49 PM

2014-02-27T13:49:43-05:00

I don't see it as an issue with Social Media. I see it as an issue with the person(s) involved. You cannot stop someone from sharing their thoughts on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Google+, Vine, Snapchat, or whatever other social media outlet they may choose to use. Sure, some of the more recent activities that have made the "front page" of online sources have placed yet another black eye in the collective face of those who serve but again you cannot place the system; you need to look at the people involved. And this goes beyond just the Service Member(s) directly involved or pictured. This goes up the entire flag pole. Seeing a Soldier sitting in his/her car during retreat and not taking a second to walk over there is just as bad as if you have stayed in your car. You come on here an as one poster below says "shake your fist" and "boo" but talking and doing are two different things. (Using the collective you by the way not targeting any one person).

You aren't going to change society and it's behavior. Service members will continue to have their smartphones with them. They will continue to post their feelings. If you see it as an issue, address it in a corrective manner. Maintaining professionalism and OPSEC must continue even as the world gets more and more connected 24/7/365. Take it as a leadership challenge.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 2:31 PM

2014-02-27T14:31:41-05:00

Its funny how people come on here and either get insulted or start an argument. These discussion are simply discussion and sharing experience and opinions. As far not correcting soldier rendering honors to the flag, I correct soldiers constantly. If I see some run inside I make a point of getting them and making them understand exactly why we salute the flag and the actually meaning behind it.

Response by CPT Carrien M. made Feb 28 at 2014 12:08 PM

2014-02-28T12:08:42-05:00

Social Media has amplified the exposure of our usually private social behaviors, and the reactions of others. So rather than an inside joke amongst coworkers being just that, and never really leaving work, these days there's guaranteed to be at least one post made about it on some form of social media. All of it is completely preventable. But just as safety briefs don't prevent all accidents, talking about social media safety/professionalism won't prevent these incidents either. At some point, servicemembers have to accept responsibility for their actions. It seems simple, but this generation of 'post now, think later' are having trouble understanding why it's a BFD.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 3:27 PM

2014-03-22T15:27:59-04:00

For posing with a gun in uniform? About the only thing I see wrong is that she is tooling around with her finger in the trigger well...which is something I have seen before and didn't cause me to have a heart attack.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 10:42 PM

2014-03-22T22:42:40-04:00

Now it's just getting out of hand.

I can open my instagram app and pull about 50 pictures of questionable behavior by fellow soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 6:08 PM

2014-03-25T18:08:37-04:00

Jeez.  With all the talk lately about Soldiers taking inappropriate pics and posting them, when will they learn...?  At least this one isn't nearly as bad as some of the ones I have seen lately.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Mar 25 at 2014 6:23 PM

2014-03-25T18:23:11-04:00

Surprised that Facebook did not take it down due to their no guns policy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-03-25T18:25:16-04:00

Thug Life!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 25 at 2014 6:33 PM

2014-03-25T18:33:04-04:00

It's like a reunion...

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 25 at 2014 6:54 PM

2014-03-25T18:54:41-04:00

It's not ok. Never was ok. And as long as I'm in the Army, never will be ok.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 25 at 2014 7:04 PM

2014-03-25T19:04:52-04:00

I am so happy I have retired, I would absolutely lose my mothertruckin mind and snap if one of my Soldiers had ever done anything as stupid as some of the crap that I have seen over the last month or two. Please somebody break a foot off into their ass, PLEASE!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 8:04 PM

2014-03-25T20:04:37-04:00

Get your finger OFF THAT TRIGGER AND BEAT YOUR FACE!

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Mar 25 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-03-25T20:58:13-04:00

<p>One question: Are you a professional or amateur. Professional Soldiers act like a true professional and amateurs embarrass the rest.</p><p><br></p><p>CSM OB</p>

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Mar 25 at 2014 9:32 PM

2014-03-25T21:32:02-04:00

A PV2 pointing a weapon at a camera to look "hard" while in uniform. Shocking.<div><br></div><div>A stupid kid with two seconds in the Army and perhaps no real understanding yet of pride in the uniform, making a stupid and reckless mistake. It's as if she's young, stupid and reckless.<div><div><br></div><div>Sigh...correct her and move forward. </div></div></div>

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 9:55 AM

2014-03-26T09:55:33-04:00

Front leaning position MOOOOVE!!!! In cadence... 1 2 3

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 2:17 PM

2014-03-26T14:17:18-04:00

And we continue to discharge good soldiers while these children stay in and collect a check....

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Mar 26 at 2014 4:19 PM

2014-03-26T16:19:48-04:00

ENS, from what I have experienced, they will not learn.  only those that get caught and are punished will find out the ramifications of their actions...  Then another knucklehead will emerge and we will debate and talk about their stupidity and we will continue to have this conversation for the next few years.  

Response by SGT James McCue made Mar 27 at 2014 12:27 PM

2014-03-27T12:27:55-04:00

Social media has become a huge problem for the military and we need to educate ourselves on professionalism and Facebook.

What troops do not know is that posting inappropriate photos and posts has a long-term effect. We are just now starting to see UCMJ actions, but civilian employers are beginning to see it as well resulting in a refusal to hire.

As leaders, we need to educate our troops and the negative impact it can have. Tell them to take down that "sexy" photos. Do not show off how drunk you can get. Do not use profane or offensive language.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 27 at 2014 2:58 PM

2014-03-27T14:58:09-04:00

Not a career enhancing move!

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 27 at 2014 3:13 PM

2014-03-27T15:13:08-04:00

Man, I just can't believe this stuff...just coming out of the woodwork now!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2014 7:16 PM

2014-03-27T19:16:42-04:00

I agree with you, but I have another point of view on social media. Imagine what types of video's that would have been on the web if social media would have been so relevant 15 years ago. The overall lack of disrespect I think is a different issue. That is an overall TRADOC issue that needs to be addressed and corrected.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Mar 27 at 2014 7:31 PM

2014-03-27T19:31:16-04:00

<p>Social media will and has become the new UCMJ Darwin affect. The more places you have to display your hidden stupidity the more chances you have to be caught.</p><p> </p><p>What these individuals don't understand or don't care about, is the way their actions make the Military look. That's the part that angers me.</p>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2014 8:55 PM

2014-03-27T20:55:31-04:00

I agree with most that is being said. What's the most we can do... I'd say forward this info to thier CoC. But with the mindset of how to handle situations like these, it may only result in a negative counseling and that's the last we hear about it. Unfortunately I believe that the social media problem has already snowballed out of control. Due to it being so easy now to openly express yourself, soldiers need to be more situationally aware to thier listening "audience". Pictures of anything that can discredit the military, and statements that openly oppose the government, are running rampant now and as leaders we need to put a stop to this because if we don't ;then the problem can explode into open disrespect and disregard for good order in the military and that can turn a mission capable unit into just a bunch of joes who do not look at thier leaders for leadership and leaders who are not confident in their soldiers ability. It may seem like pictures today but the second and third order effects that evolve from this type of behavior is far more destructive than just Facebook pictures.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 1:45 AM

2014-03-28T01:45:36-04:00

Freakin nasty!

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 1:49 AM

2014-03-28T01:49:03-04:00

There is at least two people wrong here, the one pictured and the one taking the picture.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 28 at 2014 2:06 AM

2014-03-28T02:06:51-04:00

As Stan Shaw said in the movie "The Boys in Company C"; "If you are going to be dumb enough to point a weapon at someone, you should be smart enough to pull the trigger." This person doesn't seem to have learned that lesson. Especially since she has her finger on the trigger. Stupid, very stupid!

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 28 at 2014 2:09 AM

2014-03-28T02:09:55-04:00

One simple question, or maybe it isn't so simple. WTF has happened to my Army, my family. Are we inbreeding our recruits now?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 4:54 PM

2014-03-28T16:54:14-04:00

lets see, there is soo much wrong in this picture that cannot be excused, but chalk it up to pvts who think its ok to post foolishness to social media while in uniform and think thats ok, when Senior Ledership start cracking down on military personal posting what they do while off duty, they going to really regret even shareing that on social media.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 9:58 PM

2014-03-28T21:58:28-04:00

*facepalm*

Response by SGT William B. made Mar 29 at 2014 1:03 AM

2014-03-29T01:03:00-04:00

Good question.  The question I like to ask in response to this one is do you believe that these sorts of things happened during the 70's, the 80's, the 90's?<br><br>You betcha.<br><br>The military has always had its share of folks that were less than ideal.  Think things like rape, sexual harassment, and EO issues didn't happen back then because everything in the 80's and 90's was from a magical time where everyone that served was much more honorable than the current crop of kids coming in now?  It wasn't.  The major difference here is that now live in a world that is becoming increasingly DOMINATED by near-instantaneous access to social media, and the far-reaching effects of posting sensitive, crude, or shameful information to that media.  <br><br>I liken the phenomena to people that always talk about how things were better "back then" as opposed to now.  What people don't understand is that we're actually doing pretty well in comparison to the 80's and early 90's.  The issue is that our media now covers so much of the things that go wrong and blast it over every available channel that it appears like there's absolutely nothing good happening. <br>

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 29 at 2014 1:07 AM

2014-03-29T01:07:07-04:00

No it is not that simple. It is not an epidemic however, we must remember the real context here and that it's really a small group that generate the large audience.

Now, what can we do (as leaders, and we are ALL leaders)? Continued training of our policies and doctrine and also our service members being disciplined to do their duty and honor the values of their service branch we can reduce the buffoonery. And those that violate the rules and regulations need to be dealt with accordingly (whether that is retraining or punished if that is what is deserving). We must remember that we ARE held to a higher standard than the rest of society and with that we are expected to not do these things. Many of these acts are completely disrespectful and really get to us all at an emotional level, especially when we are talking about our fallen comrades.

Response by SPC Randall Davis made Apr 1 at 2014 10:24 AM

2014-04-01T10:24:59-04:00

How does she even get a Pistol for duty? This is an accidental discharge waiting to happen. She'll pick it up to show off someday, forgetting there's a live round in the chamber, then BOOM!! Either her, a Battle Buddy, or some other innocent bystander will take a 9mm ROUND. This little wanna be thug needs to be sent to the local VA hospital and be forced to see what damage bullets do, Firearms are NOT TOYS!! The toughness and arrogance shown in her expressions are laughable, instead, would someone please replace her Military Bearings!?

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 10:37 AM

2014-04-01T10:37:14-04:00

Coming from someone in this generation and a former "selfie" taker, I believe that Instagram will be the end of many Junior Enlisted careers in the years to come, on top of those it has ended already.

I deleted my Instagram account upon joining the Army, because I realized that A) If someone wants to find it, they can and B) Getting a bunch of "likes" on your picture from people you hardly know (and after joining the service may well never see again) is meaningless and not worth the trouble of worrying about who will see your post and whether or not you will get in trouble for what you put out there.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 10:48 AM

2014-04-01T10:48:30-04:00

I think this problem is a new one. In the old days, if you ran into a soldier in the airport and made a spot correction they usually straightened up because you were right there with them. Now thanks to social media, a hundred+ soldiers see another soldier and everyone wants to make the spot correction but nobody can find the soldier or who he belongs to in order to get him squared away.

What you are really asking I believe is: "How do we let them graduate from basic and they still have these idiotic or immature tendencies and notions in their heads??" I think the answer is in the question..."How are we training them in basic training?" We've gotten lax and now we pay the price(s).

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 1 at 2014 10:55 AM

2014-04-01T10:55:12-04:00

It's hard to try to explain this without offending someone when I say it's a generational thing, but to me it is. Yes we had idiots back in the late '80s and '90s, but you never had the kind of crap that is displayed today, no one in their right mind regardless of their particular background would do anything like this when in uniform, period. Social media highlights it for us, but it did not happen "back in the day" because Soldiers respected the uniform, they may do this stupid shit in civilians but not in uniform. Todays youth have this sense of entitlement and "I can do what I want, regardless of what you say" attitude, if they didn't you wouldn't see this crap at all. Now before someone gets all butthurt, if the shoe fits, wear it, if not let it go and continue to do the right thing; not every "millennial" or whatever term is used to categorize today's youth, is this way, but far more are than aren't.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 15 at 2014 10:56 AM

2014-04-15T10:56:10-04:00

Issue #1: Pointing an M9 at the camera/viewer.
Issue #2: Doing that in uniform.

Without the uniform, it's not a great pic, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. People need to learn to respect the uniform.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Apr 17 at 2014 11:32 PM

2014-04-17T23:32:07-04:00

Human nature...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 3:53 AM

2014-04-26T03:53:21-04:00

That is a good course to teach. It is just crazy what people post...

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2014 3:57 PM

2014-06-04T15:57:12-04:00

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Jul 20 at 2014 10:44 PM

2014-07-20T22:44:59-04:00

It's not okay. It reflects poorly on the person and this facebook post is visible to the entire world. So in addition to the person being unprofessional, it is also an embarrassment to their branch of service because, like it or not, by wearing the uniform you are identifying with your branch of service and are acting as a spokesperson for it.

What does the public see when they see this facebook pic? A crazy drunk boy toy that doesn't know anything about gun safety! This is a great poster FOR advocates of Gun Control and gives the Left ammo when they say things like "Those in the military shouldn't be allowed to own guns."

I am retired and have purposely not put a picture of myself in uniform up as my profile pic, so that if, for example, I am harsh in my criticism of the current Administration (which IMO has not treated the military well and has wreaked havoc on our national security), it is understood that I am doing it as a private citizen who has fulfilled all my military obligations, and in no way am speaking as a representative OF the military, which those on Active Duty are 24/7, like it or not.

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Jul 21 at 2014 12:40 PM

2014-07-21T12:40:54-04:00

Wow! These is such a different military than the one i served in. This is one of the few times I am happy to be an old man.

She is pretty until you see her with her tattoos. Like drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 9:27 PM

2014-07-21T21:27:44-04:00

Holy $#%^. Her finger is on the trigger. Once again, If i were there I would Sparta Kick her off the desk. This is a fail. If you read the postings on the page they even say that it is a safety No-go. POG-LIFE.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 9:36 PM

2014-07-21T21:36:22-04:00

Counseling statement and move forward. She'll eventually wash herself out. And of course, be the vet, one day, saying "Yeah, I was in. I got out because, er, I was sick of it. But ,uhmmm...OMG, like WTF, you are rockin' them shoes, girl!"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 11:45 PM

2014-07-21T23:45:11-04:00

#1 booger hook off the bang switch.

#2 it's unprofessional and inappropriate.

And before anyone jumps in with any of that "you wouldn't be saying that if it was a guy" crap. Yes. I would. I don't care if you're male, female, black, white, purple, plaid, gay, straight, moose, mouse, whatever. If you signed your name on the dotted line and you wear the uniform in ANY capacity be it full time or part time, you represent the US Armed Forces and the United States of America. One idiot makes all of us look like fools in the eyes of the country and the world.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 24 at 2014 8:12 AM

2014-09-24T08:12:58-04:00

Another aspect of Social Media etiquette is not so much about what you post (pics and embarrassing situations that question the profession of arms) but WHEN you post. Having been deployed many times, and also seen and knowing those who have, when some have the opportunity to be home (not on official leave) while the unit is deployed, I think it proper etiquette to not post so much.

Point taken, if for any reason you are on Rear "D" and not with all your friends (on social media) while they are embracing the deployment, posting of nights out with the significant other having wine or beverage of your choice is not appropriate. Showing all the concerts, parties, water skiing and awesome things you are doing while they are deployed is kind of a slap in the face. It is merely my .02 and I exercise this as I have seen it happen so many times. The discussion forward usually turns to the folks in the rear and usually with distaste for the consideration.