Societal Divide. What can we do about it?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 15:40:17 -0400

I have read a lot about sociology and often thought of its impact on us all. Societal norms are ever changing and are geographically based. Ever more paradigms shift to realign with what is really a perverted version of empowerment, or more like what they may think it is.

To break it down a bit. Some groups in society are developing a sub culture in where they redefine their own values and standards even though they may be counter to what is held to the common American.

Trampling on the flag of the United States of American has never been commonly accepted. Yet now there is a some sort of challenge to where it is urged to do so. The reasons behind it don't really make much sense but as I stated before they are altering and redefining what the flag stands for.

How do we deal with this. I wish we could charge them with a crime but that is not illegal. By promoting this conduct it will only be more and more common. Is there anything that can be done?

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made May 2 at 2015 3:48 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Sat, 02 May 2015 15:48:04 -0400

They're stepping on the symbol of the rights that allow them to step on it.

Irony at its most stupid.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made May 2 at 2015 3:48 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sat, 02 May 2015 15:48:41 -0400

Ignorance is bliss.....and bliss is ignorance.....will we lose our country without a shot being fired because it is someone's right to come in and take it?

We have to make some changes in our society, drastic changes, we cannot continue on the way we are headed. If we fail to act, we will simply give our country away....our founding fathers would be ashamed at the fallacy that is our democratic society that exist today. Too many do too little and expect too damned much for absolutely frickin nothing!

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2015 3:58 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 15:58:26 -0400

Sorry, it didn't post and I posted again then it posted 2X .

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2015 3:59 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 15:59:45 -0400

Once again, I think much of the answer lies in telling the truth. Quit on both side with the exaggerations, half truths, and out and out lies about about the "other" side of any issue.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2015 4:01 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 16:01:56 -0400

I was wondering the same thing. How do we stop this? I think that class conflict has been something that's been ignored in our country. This movement can evolve into far more worse than flag stomping. That's what I worry about. What's next?

There's so much disparity between races that it's almost a repeat of history. There are so many factors behind flag stomping. I know it isn't right but the specific group feels as if the country continues to betray them and they are reacting.

Ultimately, in some cases subcultures are forced to be whom they are by circumstance.

This is a great topic and I'd like to see more opinions from the active members of this site. Definitely thought stimulating.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 2 at 2015 4:08 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 02 May 2015 16:08:41 -0400

Even Forrest had the smarts to know it when he saw it. It never ceases to amaze me how anti-government some folks are, as they demand their constitutional rights to spit on the constitution. Their rights seem to trump everyone else's rights. The land of the entitled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJe6-afGz0Q

Stupid is as stupid does, Mrs. Blue...

Mrs. Blue: Are you crazy? Or just plain stupid? Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does, Mrs. Blue. Mrs Blue: I guess.

Response by Lt Col Fred Marheine, PMP made May 2 at 2015 4:11 PM

Lt Col Fred Marheine, PMP — Sat, 02 May 2015 16:11:36 -0400

"...a perverted version of empowerment" - through creation of shared victimhood and the entitlement mindset purportedly designed to "correct" the "injustice." In reality, this remedy invokes voluntary subjugation of free will / critical thinking in exchange for a life-long reliance on those who are "protecting" the victims from further victimization.

It's control, pure and simple. Serfdom. Slavery of a sort. Tyranny...

"Liberty cannot be preserved without general knowledge among the people."
- John Adams

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 2 at 2015 5:04 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 02 May 2015 17:04:53 -0400

Nothing actually

Response by TSgt Christopher D. made May 2 at 2015 5:11 PM

TSgt Christopher D. — Sat, 02 May 2015 17:11:16 -0400

I can't substantiate this (I have no statistics to lean on), but I wonder if it has to do with Millenials coming to realize just how bad their predecessors stacked the deck against them. With unfunded liabilities over the next 75 years topping an estimated $200 trillion, one wonders how they feel about the country that allowed people to steal from them before they were even born.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 2 at 2015 5:56 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Sat, 02 May 2015 17:56:07 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, Some would have you believe that if we as a nation ignore this behavior it will go away. I am sorry this is not the case. We as service-members/retirees/veterans took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, among the things we are/were defending is the right for some people to remain ignorant.
Many may have jumped on this band wagon simply because they think it is a cool thing to do. Protests, riots, and other civil actions have always existed in this nation otherwise we would still be colonies of the English. It wasn’t all that many years ago that burning the American flag was unacceptable, now it has become commonplace.
I would like to offer this simple solution;
Find this/these people
Let them pick the flag of any nation, you know, the one with all of the pretty colors
Help them pack
Give them a ticket for a free boat ride
Put them on said boat
Have the captain take them to 50 miles off shore
Throw all their stuff and them over board and tell them to swim the rest of the way to shore and have a nice day.

Just my opinion.
C.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 2 at 2015 6:17 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Sat, 02 May 2015 18:17:20 -0400

This one will not be desecrated on my watch. Protest all you want. I will even agree with some of your issues. But you will not desecrate a flag that is under my care.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 2 at 2015 6:27 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sat, 02 May 2015 18:27:29 -0400

First of all give these idiots dictionaries because justice does not equal vengeance or revenge. Two minutes after an incident happens the jury of the court of public opinion has already reached a verdict - how can this be?? White LEO confronts ethnic subject does not equal guilt, does not equate to police brutality and is not a reason to destroy other people's property.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 2 at 2015 6:52 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 02 May 2015 18:52:46 -0400

They have not seen white supremacy except for a few people wearing bed sheets and pillow cases. Nor are they bright enough to know what genocide or holocaust mean. I challenge these people to go to Iraq to see real examples.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 2 at 2015 7:56 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 02 May 2015 19:56:03 -0400

So by all rights, I can wave a huge American flag and hold a sign saying "try to step on this one." Would that be considered trying to incite a riot? Why do I have the feeling that I would be at fault when things get out of control and I would be the instigator? I would also like to apologize for being white, which clearly makes me a member of this "white supremacy." Forgive me, but my "supremeness" needs to go back to counting my millions and twisting my mustache and think of the next way I can keep oppressing the masses. Haters gotta hate. Try putting on a uniform and standing a post and seeing how he rest of the world really is. You'll be picking that flag off of the ground with a super maga-f'n quickness! I'm wasting my time trying to think logically with people who believe that the way to solve this issue is to desecrate the American flag and blame "the man." That is an impressive solution regarding social reform. Then again, the way things are going, we will end up paying them $15 an hour to step on the flag because they aren't employed. Be a part of the solution and take that cell phone and take pictures of yourself cleaning up around your neighborhood or other positive steps.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made May 2 at 2015 9:56 PM

SSG Kenneth Lanning — Sat, 02 May 2015 21:56:18 -0400

Shit like this makes me want to get a 5,000 watt amp system outside my house when I retire just so I can play Reveille and Retreat/To the Colors while I put the Nation's Colors up and down every day at 0630 and 1630...freedom of speech, right? :)

So...any volunteers to help fold the garrison flag? Figure I'll need about 10...heh.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2015 10:23 PM

2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 22:23:05 -0400

The first thing we need to do is recognize there is a problem. While that may sound like a "cop out", it needs to be stated. It is far too easy for those watching these actions unfold to throw up defensive barriers and cry out in exasperation "Why are *they* doing this?"

I believe everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, and using that baseline, I must conclude that those protesting honestly feel that they are being mistreated. If I view it from the simplistic lens of "*they* just want to loot and get free stuff" or "*they're* stepping on a symbol that I fought for, and therefore *they* are not worth listening to" then I become part of the problem they seem to be decrying.

So I must first recognize a problem exists. Then I have to think to myself, "What would cause me to take to the streets in anger?" As a rational, semi-intelligent person, it'd take a lot to push me out into the streets against my neighbors, protectors, and country. However, I signed up for the military because I wanted to fight injustice that could harm my family, and by extension my world. That was an easy rational decision that each of us in uniform made.

So these protesters are stepping on the flag, and if we assume they are rational people, then it is because they feel like injustice has been done to them specifically by the country whose flag they are stepping on. They must fear harm will come to their family, and by extension, their world.

Here is where the problem reveals itself. Rationally speaking, you don't harm yourself. If you are going to bring harm to someone, it will be someone who is opposed to your way of life or preventing what you want to accomplish. These protesters must believe that if the US is harming them, it is because they stand in opposition to what the US wants to accomplish. Once again, since rational things don't hurt themselves, these protesters are basically saying "we are a culture that is separate and distinct, and our culture is being oppressed by the culture of the United States, because we stand in its way". Or, in other words, "We are not Americans".

So, what can be done? We need to create an "American culture" that binds us all together. For decades now we have broken our unified culture apart, holding certain sub-cultures up in the spotlight of the media as more or less important than others. We have split ourselves along racial, political, and religious lines. We have closed the ranks of our sub-cultures and created an environment where one culture can clash against another even in the heart of the same geographic location.

We need unity, and that starts with reaching out to someone who doesn't look or think like you, who doesn't match your sub-culture, and having a freaking conversation with them. Maybe soon enough we'll realize that our culture, our unifying American culture, hasn't really gone anywhere. Its been here all along... branded into our souls, framed in the constitution, and perpetually protected by an all-volunteer military. Tear down the sub-cultures; find our commonality in seeking true justice. It will start with each of us.

Response by SFC William Farrell made May 2 at 2015 11:03 PM

SFC William Farrell — Sat, 02 May 2015 23:03:03 -0400

Trampling on the American flag should be against the law. I don't buy that freedom of speech nonsense. The USA needs to get back to the ideals that we were founded on before we fall. The only way to do this is to vote some of these idiots out of office and elect the ones who represent American values.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 3 at 2015 1:13 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:13:03 -0400

One of the major factors is the media and internet. News people say something without even checking to see if it's correct, it's spread like wildfire and everyone believes it. Missouri is a good case in point. IF all the "hands up" crap had not been put on the air so much, then maybe the truth would have been taken to heart. Even after the truth came out, "hands up" was still up front. Look at the last crap coming out of the media mouth, and yet she had such a hard time to say she was sorry, too late the damage was already done.

So many think they are entitled to so much for doing nothing today that the love, respect and dedication to the United States is lost in the "I deserve this" attitude. I'm a firm believer if some kind of public service for two years was demanded of everyone, be it military, social, what ever, then people would begin to take more pride in what's going on and why. We can see for many it takes some kind of freebees just to turn out to vote! Political Correctness has cut the nuts out of our society. Stop looking in the past so much and start looking forward. Those who spend all their time looking in the past are those who think they are owed something. I'm not saying forget the past, because if we forget our past mistakes we'll never learn. What I'm saying is spend more time looking forward and seeing what we can do for EACH OTHER and how we can help BUILD A BETTER COUNTRY AS A WHOLE. Stop thinking only "You owe me".

Response by SrA Charles Taylor made May 3 at 2015 1:32 AM

SrA Charles Taylor — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:32:24 -0400

What I see going on,... trampling our flag under foot,... makes me fighting mad

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 3 at 2015 1:40 AM

SGT Anthony Rossi — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:40:38 -0400

Unfortunately the only way to handle these people is simply not to give them any attention. Yet, it sure not easy to do!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 4:29 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 04:29:14 -0400

Patriotism does seem to be as important as it used to be. For many, the flag meant something, and was more than a symbol. In the photo above, it appears there is a move to make a statement about their meaning of the flag. It is unfortunate, and I do not like it, but it is, after all, their choice.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 3 at 2015 9:28 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 03 May 2015 09:28:15 -0400

If we all keep posting/re-posting and talking about these people, their 'challenges' will grow.

They're looking for attention and 'going viral'...we're doing a great job helping them out.

Instead of discussing their causes, start your own...#RespectTheFlag. Ok, I'll start it for you ;)

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 3 at 2015 10:03 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 03 May 2015 10:03:39 -0400

The societal divide is often the individual who does not integrate with society, and blames the country for not providing more for them. If you look at the immigrants, many of them send their children to college, which gives them a better opportunity to integrate and pursue the rewards the society has to offer.

As an example, the French have allowed tens of thousands to immigrate to the country. They have taken over a large cities and towns where violence is rampant, and they are conducting their own police actions. They refuse integrate into French culture which causes friction.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 10:16 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 10:16:49 -0400

Addressing the actual issues at hand is a lot more useful and important than caring about idiots stepping on a piece of cloth that was probably manufactured in China. Americans and their concerns matter more than cloth dyed symbolic colors.

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 3 at 2015 11:57 AM

PO1 John Miller — Sun, 03 May 2015 11:57:02 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member , I really wish I had a viable solution to this concern! My immediate reaction is to authorize a fire mission but as you said that would be illegal as no crime is being committed.

I would have to say the root of the problem is the parents. We have all heard (I'm sure) of many parents wanting to be their children's buddies, letting their kids do whatever they want, not disciplining, and not teaching them right from wrong. That makes me wonder if that's how the parents themselves behave.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 1:50 PM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 13:50:34 -0400

That is just so disrespectful. they're not just stepping on the flag, theyre stepping on everyone who has served and not just military. police officers , fire fighters, everyone who protects our great nation. I know it's a freedom of speech and expression but is disgrace and morally unacceptable. their parents must have raised them wrong or they're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 8:17 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 08:17:39 -0400

Racism is making a comeback. Eric Sheppard self-identifies himself as a terrorist against white people. When mis-informed and un-educated people take hold of statement or action that they do not fully comprehend, ignorance wins. I would prefer we had a way to expel individuals for this. If they do not identify with this flag, then pick one that you do, and we will happily usher you to that nation. Keep adding fuel to the fire, and eventually you get burned, too.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 12:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 12:22:17 -0400

Yeah, because that's what the American Flag stands for. Racism and White supremacy. What a load of shit. That will NOT happen in my presence AND if it did, believe me when I say I would not be able to contain myself. I will likely be on the 5 o'clock news because I took that flag right from underneath them. It wouldn't be my fault if they slipped and fell on their ass. Just saying.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 4 at 2015 12:26 PM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Mon, 04 May 2015 12:26:31 -0400

Put all 18 year olds in the Army and make them not only live together, but succeed or fail as a group based by working together.

naaaaaa .. that would never work .......

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 4 at 2015 2:45 PM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 04 May 2015 14:45:06 -0400

I used to have a shirt with an American Flag on it that said "Try burning this one!", I might have to find a new one.

On a more serious note though there needs to be some national dialogue that is open and not trying to point or deflect blame. We need leaders from all sides, colors, communities, etc. to come out and speak out about what is right and appropriate. Unfortunately the divisive narrative is good for power struggles so I doubt this would actually happen.

Response by SPC Michael Frugoli made May 4 at 2015 2:53 PM

SPC Michael Frugoli — Mon, 04 May 2015 14:53:56 -0400

A term that is used in child development since were talking about society is that "after age eight is too late"

A lot of people are set in their ways there is no changing Abbet there is no changing stereotypes it takes people to make it effective effort they actually have to open their minds and think about what they're doing sometimes it is much easier to just deal with the stereotypes and live life.

The only way to fix this is through our children and setting them up for success it is too late for the majority of people you cannot change the way they think the way they feel it's too bad really. But it's being betrayed onto our children so we are already losing steps we try to teach our children at home about respect and diverse city and excepting change but wins with riots and police misconduct, brutality, the media it's setting them up for failure.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 5 at 2015 8:46 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Tue, 05 May 2015 08:46:33 -0400

I do not know that there is anything that we can do about the divide within our society today. We have gotten to the point where there are far too many "have nots" that for one reason or another feel that they have been left behind and that no one cares about their plights, which is sad. Having watched the events over the past 9 months, since the shooting death of Michael Brown, and watching the protests/riots that have ensued, I am not sure of what we can do to overcome the issues that seem to divide us. Those on the left spout off about the social injustices that have been perpetrated on the protestors/rioters by the lack of programs, jobs, opportunities and blame those that are rich for somehow being the cause of these issues or the heavy-handed tactics used by the police in certain high crime areas. While some of this may be true, it is the result, in some cases, by the local and/or state governments in these areas that have caused the areas to end up the way that they are. Those on the right bemoan the fact that the disintegration of the family in most of these urban areas and the rise of gang/drug culture along with an over-dependency upon the federal governments welfare programs is the main cause of the animosity felt by a lot of the individuals you see splashed across the TV screen and the newspapers. I know that there are older vets on here that remember the racial issues of the '60s and how far we have come since that time, but what I see, and this is only my observation, is a failure of the system that was meant to lift certain segments of our society out of poverty, provide them with assistance when needed/necessary, but allow them to be on a more even "playing field" than they otherwise might have been. Unfortunately from where I sit, it seems that the affirmative action plans put in place in the '70s and the choices made by certain individuals has snowballed into a society that is split between those that fend for themselves and expect others to do the same and those that would rather rely on the government to provide for them and blame their problems on everyone else instead of fending for themselves. It hurts and pisses me off to no end when I see demonstrations like the picture posted above because, while only a symbol of our nation, that flag and what it represents is the very reason why these assclowns can demonstrate/protest and run their collective soup-coolers. What I do fear is the conflict that will inevitably arise when some veteran/group of veterans come across a "challenge" like this and directly confront the individuals involved.