Soldier being defiant -- What would you do?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 13:38:22 -0500

Soldier will not show up in uniform. Sm won't listen to anything. Won't even show up in uniform to go to appointments. What would you do?

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 8 at 2014 1:48 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 13:48:30 -0500

Well at this point he has given you no choice send him up the chain. This Soldier is pretty much telling you to F-off with out telling you. What is his/her rank. We had a seabee like this once with in a 2 months he was separated from the Navy.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 2:03 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:03:09 -0500

Are you his Chain of Command? Or are you just observing? Definitely bring this to leadership. Sounds like he/she just needs a reality check from someone with a heavier sleeve.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 2:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:07:14 -0500

4856 on all those issues, along a recommendation for UCMJ attached to it, if that doesn't work, more UCMJ and a chapter to go along with it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 2:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:11:16 -0500

Yeah chain of command is tracking but still nothing there have been 8 da4856 done just for today

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 8 at 2014 2:29 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:29:23 -0500

If his NCOs are taking care of it at their level, then up the chain for non-judicials. If that doesn't take care of it, UCMJ.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 2:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:47:35 -0500

4856 with magic bullet. Once a paper trail has been created and you've provided evidence that you've tried to reform the soldier then recommend for NJP/UCMJ/chapter.

This assumes the soldier cannot be rehabilitated, which with the limited information you've provided is impossible to determine. I've had one soldier like this, that's basically a "failure to adapt" but is well past the point where that chapter can be levied. All you can do is create a mountain of evidence proving you've tried to reform the solider and they refuse to respond to corrective measures.

If for whatever reason it's believed the soldier is reformable, then still do 4856s minus the magic bullet and have a serious "come to jesus" conversation explaining in explicit and unambiguous terms what is in this soldiers future if they don't shape up.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Dec 8 at 2014 3:06 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 15:06:08 -0500

Document, Document, Document. Once the paper trail starts and no improvement is shown, you have grounds to recommend to the CC (via your chain) Art15 action and/or admin separation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 3:47 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 15:47:15 -0500

My personal definition of leadership: Getting people to want to do things they otherwise wouldn't want to do.
So, the art here is to get to the bottom of what is behind this behaivior and remove it as a motivator.

Does the SM simply not respect you and is trying to get your goat? A little good old-fashioned smoke show with a DA 4856 to document the activity is in order.

Is the Soldier attempting to garner a "failure to adapt" Chapter? Take it away as an option by again documenting the issues on a DA 4856 and drive it towards a posssible Pattern of Misconduct Discharge.

Does the Soldier have a behavior health issue? An appointment can get to the bottom of that.

Basically, you can't let a Soldier run you. Once they sense weakness, they will run roughshod until put back into check. These situations are never fun, but they are somewhat common. Try talking it over with the Platoon Sergeant and see if he has had a similiar case and how he handled it. It will also have the effect of elevating the issue without passing it off, so you will have some support from above if you need it.
Stay on it, though SGT. You want to solve this at your level if possible. Your objective should be modifying the behavior, not punishing the symptoms.
Good Luck.

Response by SPC William Seaton made Dec 8 at 2014 3:44 PM

SPC William Seaton — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 15:44:18 -0500

UCMJ action for sure.

Response by SSG Stephanie Hall made Dec 8 at 2014 4:00 PM

SSG Stephanie Hall — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 16:00:46 -0500

After you have counseled verbally and formally, I would begin paperwork to chapter the soldier out of the military. If he refuses that, a MP will escort him until he is outprocessed. It sounds like this soldier needs some mental help. Good luck!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2014 4:43 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 16:43:19 -0500

1. Find out wHicham Soldiers in his platoon are his good friends.
2. Talk to the Soldiers identified and ask them questions in the realm of how the unruly Soldier is doing. (Don't come right out and identify the issue) His battle buddies will know.
3. After gathering an idea of the situation have a one on one with the Soldier. Leave the 4856 out of this conversation. Make it informal.
4. If the Soldier and yourself figure out a resolution then good on you just remember to follow up on his welfare otherwise you will come off as not being genuine and the trust will be damaged.
5. If the behavior continues begin and maintain a paper trail until the Soldier falls in line or the Soldier is Discharged. At this point he has been given the opportunity to bounce back but decided to continue being substandard. He made a conscious decision to ruin his career.

Response by SPC Matthew Farnsworth made Dec 8 at 2014 4:55 PM

SPC Matthew Farnsworth — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 16:55:23 -0500

There is a progression of events. One question I have is this a new soldier or a combat veteran who is having problems? As for progression after so many counseling statements there is only so much you can do. You could try to boot him for failure to adapt but that would be the easy way out (in my opinion). Is the failure to show up in uniform them showing up in civies for formation? Has there been article 15 proceedings started? If this Sm is a new soldier I would explain to him that if he is kicked out with a dishonorable discharge (which is the route that I see coming) explain to him that he will not receive any benefits from the VA; and also explain that many companies will see the dishonorable discharge and look negatively at him for hire.

Remember; no matter what you do; how you do it; some soldiers do not want to be helped and just need to be separated.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 2:26 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:26:46 -0500

Is this a reservist or AD?

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 2:56 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:56:14 -0500

Document...document...document!! Often leaders get wrapped up in emotion and get wrapped up in ego. When you keep the disciplinary measures on a non emotional level you win every time! Have supporting regulations to support your documentation and if necessary recommend discipline as necessary. Letter of Admonishment, Letter of Counseling, Letter of Reprimand and even Article 15. Not all warriors are rehabilitatable, sometimes you have to make hard decisions and separate the weed out the ones that can't adapt before it affects unit morale and discipline.