Soldiers and Airman... why don't you address others by their full rank?

2013-12-20T13:47:43-05:00

Ive had the opportunity to serve along Soldiers, Airman, and Sailors in a joint service environment and I never understood why it was acceptable to call just about anybody who had Sergeant in their rank simply by Sergeant instead of Master Sergeant or Sergeant First Class.  I would lose my mind and make corrections when I would be addressed by Sergeant instead of Staff Sergeant by a Soldier, Airman, and less frequently a non Fleet Marine Force Sailor (huge difference between the two ranks considering a Marine Staff Sergeant is a SNCO).  Does anybody have any history on this or reason?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 1:58 PM

2013-12-20T13:58:22-05:00

It is actually in our regulations. So if you correct an Airman or Soldier addressing another Soldier or airman then you are wrong (choke yourself).

After working with the Marines in the past I like using full rank to address soldiers.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 20 at 2013 2:08 PM

2013-12-20T14:08:52-05:00

It's regulatory. Each branch governs it's own customs and courtesies.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 20 at 2013 5:03 PM

2013-12-20T17:03:11-05:00

For the Army (as previously stated), it's covered in AR 600-20, Table 1-1 (pictured below):

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 5:07 PM

2013-12-20T17:07:02-05:00

I think questions about differing cultures and traditions across the branches are good. But to say "laziness" implies there's something wrong. Often when things are different, they're neither better nor worse. They're just different.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Dec 20 at 2013 5:48 PM

2013-12-20T17:48:07-05:00

Great question, Staff Sergeant.

I worked in a joint command, and I conformed to the other services customs and had some Marines who worked or me that I correctly addressed. I would have to gently remind them not to call me Master Sergeant. The ones I would strongly correct are the Army guys who worked for me who I correctly addressed as Sergeant and he would ask me why I insulted him by not calling him by his rank. I told him to tell me why I didn't call him Master Sergeant.

I was honored to work with the USMC, and address them as their customs and courtesies require. We require the same.

The only Sergeants we address differently are Drill Sergeant, First Sergeant, and Sergeant Major.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 7:14 PM

2013-12-20T19:14:13-05:00

Here in AFG, I work with all forces, even the coast guard. The funny thing that I have noticed is that the Airmen call me and my fellow NCOs "Sir." They said that it was how they address NCOs in the Airforce. I explained to them that we are addressed as SGTs until we make 1SG. Just an observation while being down-range. Most of them don't even know what my rank is just by looking at it.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 21 at 2013 12:22 AM

2013-12-21T00:22:41-05:00

Having spent two of my four deployments with Marines, I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I don't understand it, either. I will confess, however, that I don't understand why the Navy refers to each other by rate rather than rank (until one gets to Chief or above), and I lose count of the stripes on Air Force rank trying to figure out whether someone's a Staff Sergeant, Tech Sergeant, etc.

Now, Army vs. Marines - I make a point of referring to everyone by their FULL RANK, and I expect to be addressed in return. Yah, that comes courtesy of spending lots of time with 1/3 and two Recon units in Fallujah. Based on that experience, I've told anyone willing to listen that the Army needs to trash 2/3rds of its library, and pull a few pages from the USMC playbook. Life would be easier, the Army would be much more an effective fighting force, and would put both services on the same sheet of music.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2013 12:39 AM

2013-12-21T00:39:44-05:00

The AF has made it acceptable (at least in working situations) to call anyone from E5 to E7 SGT. When you are in contact constantly with these people it saves a lot of time. I.E. working on an aircraft... hey SGT so and so can you hand me that wrench rather than Technical SGT so and so over and over again during a job. When we enter an environment where more professionalism is needed it is exercised. The AF (at least to some degree) trusts its members to be able to assess the situation and use their judgement.

Response by SSG John Mendyka made Dec 21 at 2013 3:32 AM

2013-12-21T03:32:51-05:00

This is a fantastic question, I thought it was fantastic to have Marines at HQ ISAF address me as SSG.  Very professional and worthy of the grade.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2013 3:04 PM

2013-12-21T15:04:00-05:00

SSgt Fair, It is actually in our Air Force Instruction 36-2618 (The Enlisted Force Structure) that E-1 to E-4 (Airman Basic, Airman, Airman First Class, and Senior Airman) can be called by their correct rank or  by Airman. E-5 to E-8 (Staff Sergeant, Technical Sergeant, Master Sergeant, and Senior Master Sergeant) can also be called by there correct rank or by Sergeant. E-9 (Chief Master Sergeant) can be called by the correct rank or by Chief.

Response by PO2 Pete Haga made Dec 22 at 2013 2:25 AM

2013-12-22T02:25:25-05:00

while I was in the Navy we called a E-9 Master Chief E-8 Senior Chief E-7 Chief E-6 First Class Petty Officer and so on unless told otherwise by the NCO. no confusion that way the NCO worked hard to get that rank and should be respected for the accomplishment.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 12 at 2014 2:48 PM

2014-03-12T14:48:58-04:00

I understand what Marines are thinking with the entire rank thing but what I don't like is to be referred as an "E6". I get paid to lead soldiers, no for being pay grade or something like that.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-03-12T18:13:34-04:00

I worked the Class I yard for a month or so in Afghanistan so I had just about every branch possible coming through the office with supply requests. I always made it a point to refer to other branches by rank just because everyone seems to have an SOP for addressing each other, unless I was corrected. Even that wasn't an issue because no one ever seemed to have an issue with being over restpected. Had no issues while I was on the detail. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Mar 12 at 2014 6:23 PM

2014-03-12T18:23:07-04:00

Question for you, SSgt Fair. I have seen several videos of DI's with recruits on youtube. They are yelling at them in close proximity, the recruit's response always seems to be Aye, Sir. Context is usually two or more DI's in the recruits face. I was wondering if that is a day zero thing that changes as the recruits learn the Marine rank structure?

Being raised to respect my elders I responded automatically to my Drill Sergeant with Yes, Sir and was promptly smoked for it. Even on day zero we were told that the DS's first name and last name was Drill Sergeant.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 13 at 2014 7:10 AM

2014-03-13T07:10:53-04:00

We had that small issue when I was assigned to 2d Recon. The lower enlisteds didn't know what to call an Army SFC.

Well, Yours Truly came up with a novel solution. I figured - hey, we're in a combat zone - let's dispense with the formalities. So I told them when somebody important's around, call me Sergeant First Class. When nobody important is around, just call me Mike. Heck, that's what my Iraqi troopies called me, so, no biggie, right? I mean, it's easier to say "Hey Mike" when bullets are flying than "Sergeant First Class". That was my rationale, anyway.

Well, I'm talking with the Recon 1stSgt, and some idiotic Lance Criminal walks around the corner, addresses me as "Mike", and guess what hit the fan? Yah. Lance Criminal got a lecture he never forgot.

If I had a chance to do it over again, I wouldn't change a thing.

- in garrison environment, FULL rank and last name.

- combat, anything goes

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 9:27 AM

2014-03-13T09:27:10-04:00

I cant speak on any other service, but in the AF those are the official terms of address.
 
I will say that many time other services do not know the rank structure of other branches and instead of looking like a fool for not knowing they use what their branch uses.  Ive had the opportunbity to serve in joint assignments and would generally use full rank, especially with the USMC. I believe it does a great job at earning their respect if you take a bit of time to learn the ranks and terms of adress.   Ive also been called Sgt because they did not know how to address me using full rank.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 10:21 AM

2014-03-13T10:21:48-04:00

SSgt Fair, this particular subject is one of my biggest pet peeves of all time. Addressing another Service Member respectfully and appropriately is one of the most important displays of respect and discipline especially among the Joint environment.

I used to work with a Marine and at the time we were both Staff Sergeants. He respectfully corrected me when I referred to him as Sergeant and educated me on how to properly address him. I also corrected him when he would refer to me as Staff Sergeant and educated him on why it is ok to call me "Sergeant". He said that he could not call me Sergeant because it was not proper by Marine Corps customs. I said I'm not a Marine and I would appreciate it if you would address me by what the ARMY regulation states is appropriate. He still refused. When I was promoted to Sergeant First Class I got called "Sergeant First Class" all the time and it drove me nuts. I would correct multiple people every day on how to properly address me.

I fully understand the respect aspect of it all and I greatly appreciate that from people, but I believe that it would be more respectful if Service Members took the time to learn the ranks of our sister services and how to properly address them by THEIR service specific customs and courtesies and not one own.

I also appreciate that you would pose this question in order to get better insight and allow other to be educated on this subject as well.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 13 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-03-13T16:13:54-04:00

I have always addressed an NCO as sergeant. If it was the First Sergeant then if well know then Top or otherwise by his rank. If it was the SGM or one of the 3 E-9 Ranks, Them SGM. If I was corrected by the individual as to SSG if I called them SGT then I corrected myself and thats the way I addressed them from there on. If Introducing it was by there full rank. This is LTC ???????, and so on or if calling them on the phone.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 2:36 PM

2014-03-16T14:36:23-04:00

I believe that this is a correct means of addressing servicemembers. At least in terms of the Navy, it is common to address Sailors in the ranks of E-1 to E-3 as Fireman/Seaman/Airman etc, whether they are a Fireman, Fireman Apprentice or Fireman Recruit. It is the same with PO3, PO2 and PO1 being commonly addressed as Petty Officer.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 10:58 AM

2014-04-06T10:58:33-04:00

SSgt, this is something that I will never get used to, nor will ever do. Coming from the Marines the the Army, Soldiers look at me weird when I call them Staff Sergeant, or Sergeant First Class. I can't call an E-7 a SGT. They have earned that rank, they should get the respect. It's something that will never change. In fact, when I do address them by their proper rank, I usually get asked if I was a Marine. I would just politely inform them, if they call you a SGT, that you prefer SSgt.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Apr 7 at 2014 2:43 PM

2014-04-07T14:43:00-04:00

That is the Marine in you, sure enough. I remember once when I had to pull duty on a weekend, and a bunch of Air Force crews came in at Cherry Point, who needed a ride to their base so I was given the duty.

It wigged me out hearing Majors casually talk to Sergeants and call them by name, but I figured it was their business, until one of them asked me my name. I said Corporal Sakowicz, and the Major came back with a, "What's your first name?" I glanced at him and said "Corporal." The rest of that ride he kept telling me how air crews were informal, because they spent a great deal of time together, and suchlike, then he spent about half an hour telling me how the Marines had to lighten up.

Going up a pay grade is hard in the Marines, and we all were envious, but we respected the work and effort it took to make that move. When they earned a rank, they had the right to be called that rank... unless you were a Gunnery Sergeant, and those around you, for speed, usually shortened it to "Gunney".

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Apr 7 at 2014 6:09 PM

2014-04-07T18:09:09-04:00

The one thing that surprised me more than the title of the rank that this post addresses, is how the other branches put more of an emphasis on the pay grade than the rank. That's probably the single biggest culture shock between Marines and the other branches that I see.

I can't say we always use the full rank of a Marine when we address them either. We call a Marine Gunnery Sergeant a "Gunny", a Master Gunnery Sergeant a "Master Guns".

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 10:31 PM

2014-04-08T22:31:32-04:00

For a long time I was not exposed to Army or Marines culture but I've adapted my approach as I've learned more about the other branches and what their customs are. If an Airmen calls you Sergeant instead of Staff Sergeant it's because that's what has been drilled into them and they don't know any different. In the Air Force the proper term of address for E-5 through E-8 is Sergeant. It's our instructions and no disrespect is meant by it when a young Airmen says that to a Marine. They just don't know how different it is for you. You will probably hear "Sir" a lot from Airmen as well. "Sir" is our default respectful term of address when confronted with the unknown. I think you will see a shift as joint work environments become more common and Airmen, Soldiers, and Marines all get to know each other better.

Response by SSG Douglas Espinosa made Apr 19 at 2014 8:23 PM

2014-04-19T20:23:47-04:00

SSGT Cullen,

It is because our regulation on customs and courtesies state that once we make SGT we are addressed as Sergeant all the way to MSG. Only titles to be addressed differently are 1SG, SGM and CSM (also addressed as Sergeant Major). However I agree with you on the point that we should be addressed by our actual rank.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2014 8:07 PM

2014-05-03T20:07:42-04:00

I address everyone by their full rank. I do it because when I was an E-4/ Specialist working gate duty, I addressed a Gunnery Sgt as "Sergeant" He CHEWED me out. Then when a Marine SSG (who was cool) came through and asked me how I was doing, I explained to him what happened. He laughed and then explained to me the Marines customs. And its a good point that I agree with. When I asked him why he hadn't corrected me yet because I was addressing him only as "sergeant", he stated because he KNEW it was the Army's custom. I had much respect for that SSG and few others to include a MasterGuns as he let us call him. But from that day on I addressed everyone , by their rank. I am sometimes asked if I am a Former Marine by other actual Former Marines because of it.

Response by SSgt Michael Hacker made Jun 3 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-06-03T23:00:34-04:00

Tradition. That's what we're taught, so that's what we do. We find it as odd to hear a Marine SSgt chew someone out for calling him "Sgt" as you probably find it when we call a MSgt "Sgt." :-)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2014 3:00 PM

2014-06-19T15:00:04-04:00

I've seen it a few times here, in a conversation concerned about rank.

TOP - that should not be used as slang for a 1SG. Top came about when the senior SFC was frocked to 1SG. He was the TOP SFC. I grew up in the 82nd and have seen Soldiers, NCOs and officers educated in that. Just an interesting fact for you.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2014 5:03 PM

2014-06-26T17:03:55-04:00

This is a really good question. On the one hand, it feels sort of denigrating to refer to someone simply as "Sgt". On the other, I really appreciate the simplicity. Try saying "Master Gunnery Sergeant" three times fast. Can't be done.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jul 11 at 2014 1:57 AM

2014-07-11T01:57:49-04:00

If time and circumstances permit, as in a garrison setting, I address any service member by their full rank. The middle of a firefight or IED attack usually does not permit such courtesies.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 12 at 2014 1:54 PM

2014-07-12T13:54:22-04:00

Hate to say it, but if people are obsessed with their title, that seems more of a problem to me. Everyone knows you are a 1SG or a CSM, if you have to be reminded....whose fault is that? I recall an incident where A General was referring to Senator Boxer as Ma'am, she took offense, said she earned the right to be called Senator..I contend if you are more concerned with what you are called than what you represent or DO, that is a bigger problem

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 7:58 PM

2014-07-24T19:58:57-04:00

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member I totally agree with you drives me crazy. And I really dislike it when they say "hey sarge". I just posted this same criticism on another thread. I personally think it shows respect for the proper title. Yes you have your AR 600-20 and AFI 36-2618 but I still don't agree with it. Of course this might be my Marine side showing.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Dec 31 at 2014 5:34 PM

2014-12-31T17:34:24-05:00

If I am talking directly with a MSG, I would call him "Sergeant". If I am speaking to another Soldier about the MSG, I call the MSG "Master Sergeant Smith" the first time, then "Sergeant" afterwards in the same conversation. This help the person I am speaking with readily identify about whom I am speaking. If I answer a business phone, I identify myself as my full rank, "Sergeant First Class" so the person on the other end knows the rank of the person speaking with them. After I have identified myself, they are free to address me as "Sergeant" as per the regulation. Does this offend me? Absolutely not. Do I lose any pay? Not one red cent. It comes down to the differences in the Armed Services. Marines just do things differently, not wrong, just different. There was a Marine Staff Sergeant on my base a few weeks ago, and I addressed him as "Staff Sergeant". This is where those of us not of Marine background need to understand and comply with Marine regulations. Marine SSG is "Staff Sergeant". Army SSG is "Sergeant".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 1:56 AM

2015-01-01T01:56:02-05:00

It's easy. Because our regulations state we don't have to. Yours state you will. I learned as a PFC after being chewed out by a Marine SSG that the Marines insist on their entire rank. I didn't know why. I didn't know their rank system. I just saw huge black splotches where their rank was on their collars. I couldn't tell anything over a gunnery Sgt apart. I just avoided them in Iraq after that. It wasn't worth being chewed out to make it to chow two minutes sooner. But it doesn't bother me. In fact I prefer going by a name instead of a rank. I am not defined by my rank. That defines my job and role. Not me. I still attempt to maintain the best customs and courtesy I can to other service members, but if I don't address them a way they prefer, I acknowledge my mistake and move on. I don't dwell on it. It's not a life or death thing that gets people killed. Whether I'm wrong or right, I try to do my best and acknowledge I'm not anywhere near perfect my job. I just try to do the best I can with where I am.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 5 at 2015 10:15 AM

2015-01-05T10:15:08-05:00

A little off topic, but I saluted a Master Chief once at the Stumps as a boot PFC, lol. Dang Navy and y'all's shiny $#%£!!! He laughed about it, but then corrected me gently. But said don't let it happen again son.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Mar 10 at 2015 11:00 PM

2015-03-10T23:00:10-04:00

I've attached the Joint Staff Guide for Executive Correspondence (2013 version). As a CJCS directive, I'd say it's the most authoritative guidance for terms of address in a joint environment. It's geared toward written correspondence; however, I'd say letter salutations are functionally equivalent to verbal address.

Scroll to tables 7-13 in enclosure K (p. 129 in the pdf). Nutshell answer: An Army SSgt is addressed as Sergeant. A Marine SSgt is addressed as Staff Sergeant. There are no other correct answers in a joint environment.

http://www.dtic.mil/cjcs_directives/jdata/unlimit/g571101.pdf

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made Apr 2 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-04-02T11:51:43-04:00

I know in the Army we called our first Sargent Top

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 3:51 PM

2015-04-02T15:51:13-04:00

To the history of this I think it has to go back to our formations as branches, most Army units the leaders were elected where as the Marine Corps they were chosen by leadership. Further instances of leadership elections for the Army occurred in the Civil War, Spanish American War and in some cases WWI. That being said I believe that the Army is getting closer to the Marine Corps standard all ready the term "sarge" is severely frowned upon... now if only we can get "Sar'nt" abolished.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-01-18T17:01:06-05:00

Look up AR 600-20 and AFI 36-2618.
AR 600-20 specifically states that the ranks of SGT through MSG can be addressed as "Sergeant" or by their full rank (applies only to US Army personnel/ranks).
AFI 36-2618 specifically states that the ranks of SSgt through SMSgt can be addressed as "Sergeant" or by their full rank (applies only to USAF personnel/ranks).
MCO 5060.20 specifically states that Marines are to address others by full rank. It would not be appropriate for a US Army SSG to tell a Marine not to address him/her as "Staff Sergeant".
This is due to the thought process most other services have that paygrades = rank, not understanding differences in position in authority, or that similar nomenclature equates to similar responsibility; this due to misunderstandings/differences of both cultural and institutional norms.
For example, the Marine Corps is the only service which it's SNCO Corps starts at E6 and not E7 like all the other uniformed services; this is due to the level of responsibility granted to a Marine SSgt, which is similar to that of a US Army's SFC (look up FM 3-21.8 and look at the structure of an Army Platoon; look up any Marine MCI/publication and compare to a Marine rifle platoon). SSGs and Marine Sgts have more comparable levels of responsibility. That said, much of this is misunderstood by the rest of the armed services, which typically adhere to a "paygrade = rank" type mentality.