Posted on Nov 18, 2015
Syrian Refugees. Here is my position. Will you tell me yours?
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There isn't going to be any links to the myriad of information on this subject out there. This post isn't about that. This post is, to me, a method to muddle my way through a complex situation that has the potential to effect everyone I know, and everyone in my country, whom I don't.
First things first: if you read this as someone who cannot come off of the extreme left OR right points of view, then this post will be a waste of your time. If your mind is ironclad in your position, either way, then nothing I say here is going to contribute to your intellectual engagement.
So I will start with some basic concessions, if YOU will allow me the same courtesy a bit later in the post:
-- Whether or not we should take in 10000, 100000, 1000000 Syrian refugees is NOT, in a 'whole-picture' sense, a black and white issue. The issue is ensconced in a sea of grey that has room for EVERYONE, for and against, to wander, muddled, musing, maybe even torn. This post isn't going to help you resolve that, if that's you.
--It's highly likely that 98% (or so, the number is arbitrary, don't you dare latch onto it as an arguing point!) of those refugees are just like you and me: they want to get the hell out of dodge to a better life for themselves, and their families. I get that, I understand that, I CONCEDE that, for my more rabid readers who may make the assumption that I hate all things Syrian.
-- A moral argument can be made that better-off-humans should help less-better-off-humans. Yep, yep, I can see this viewpoint. So that'd be us, the good Ol' USA. It can be said that we should help where we can.
--It is certainly true that the vast majority of those refugees are running from Very Bad Things. I know this. You know it. We all know it. As a country, maybe even, we hold some measure of responsibility, for our destabilization of the Middle East. (I don't agree with this. I'm conceding that it's a valid point of view).
So here are the concessions I want from you:
-- Every human on the planet looks out for his/her own, first and foremost. You can post here, calling me to task for this statement, all you like, but at the end of the day, it's really pretty fucking simple: when confronted with a black and white situation where you have to allow one of YOURS to die in order to better the place in life of one of those refugees....you will REFUSE. I'm not asking. I'm TELLING you. This is what will happen:
SN Wright: "10 refugees will be fed, warm, and safe, so long as you're willing to give up one or more of those conditions for someone in your family."
Sgt/Sailor/Airman X: "Nope, I can do both. I can provide for my family AND 10 Syrian refugees.".
SN Wright: "Nope, you can't. There is a finite number of dollars, call it 100. Feeding your family, keeping them safe, COSTS that 100 dollars. So. If you want to extend those conditions to 10 Syrians, you have to choose whom among your family will go hungry...or remain unprotected."
I challenge you to tell me I'm wrong about this. Of course, the obvious counter-argument is 'But but but but THERE IS ENOUGH DOLLARS'.
No. No there's not. Allow me to flesh out my thought processes a bit, in order to explain this statement: to me, there are circles of 'MINE'. First and foremost, like everyone else, is my immediate family. Then extended family. Then fellow SM's and Vets. Then....every single AMERICAN out there. Yes. In my world view, they're my family BEFORE ANYONE ELSE IS. Now, I'm sure this is going to garner comments of 'You selfish bastard,' or 'You etho-centric prick', or whatever. That's fine. I'll take it. This post is about me and MY truth, so it's ok if you disagree.
So, back to my example. There's 100 dollars to get EVERYTHING possible, done, and YOU (the reader) are in charge of all of them. But there are caveats: 60 of those dollars can go towards feeding and keeping safe your immediate family. 20 of them can be allotted to your extended family. 10 of them can be allotted to security and safety (the military). You now have 10 discretionary dollars to spend on your 'super-extended' family (fellow Americans)....or Syrian refugees.
What do you choose?
If you disagree with me, your immediate reaction is going to be 'but that's not the case, there IS extra money, THERE IS!'. Again, I say: no. No matter how many trillions of dollars we can come up with, THE NUMBER IS FINITE.
Let me say that again: The number of dollars available IS FINITE. This cannot be argued. It's not open to debate. This is as immutable as gravity. If you drop a coke can [login to see] 0 times, it will fall DOWN, [login to see] 0 (I didn't count the zeroes so piss off if you're going to nit pick! :) ) times.
So. What do we give up, to give those Syrians a better life?
Veterans, and non-veteran Americans all over the country are homeless. American CHILDREN are homeless. Or can't get enough food. Can't make rent. Can't afford health costs. Our education system is in serious need of overhaul. Physical infrastructure (highways, bridges, rail lines, ports) are falling into disrepair. An over-bloated, INEFFECTIVE security apparatus (looking at you here, Homeland Security) -tries- to keep us safe, but...come on. We all know how THAT goes.
All of those situations are arising because we're ignoring them. We keep shipping some portion of those discretionary 10 dollars overseas, to do God Knows What. We sit here and argue about the credibility of AMERICAN WOMEN in combat, while we decry the plights of foreign women? Are you fucking kidding me?
Here's my position, at long last, as if it wasn't clear: ME AND MINE FIRST. And MINE includes every single goddamned AMERICAN on the planet, of any race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, BEFORE anyone else. If you want me to care about people outside of that circle, outside of the AMERICAN circle, GIVE ME MORE THAN 100 dollars.
Thing is...you can't. Because they don't exist.
So bring on the hate, I can take it. I can afford a moment to consider your point of view. Will you do the same for me?:
We should take care of AMERICANS, before we take care of the world.
First things first: if you read this as someone who cannot come off of the extreme left OR right points of view, then this post will be a waste of your time. If your mind is ironclad in your position, either way, then nothing I say here is going to contribute to your intellectual engagement.
So I will start with some basic concessions, if YOU will allow me the same courtesy a bit later in the post:
-- Whether or not we should take in 10000, 100000, 1000000 Syrian refugees is NOT, in a 'whole-picture' sense, a black and white issue. The issue is ensconced in a sea of grey that has room for EVERYONE, for and against, to wander, muddled, musing, maybe even torn. This post isn't going to help you resolve that, if that's you.
--It's highly likely that 98% (or so, the number is arbitrary, don't you dare latch onto it as an arguing point!) of those refugees are just like you and me: they want to get the hell out of dodge to a better life for themselves, and their families. I get that, I understand that, I CONCEDE that, for my more rabid readers who may make the assumption that I hate all things Syrian.
-- A moral argument can be made that better-off-humans should help less-better-off-humans. Yep, yep, I can see this viewpoint. So that'd be us, the good Ol' USA. It can be said that we should help where we can.
--It is certainly true that the vast majority of those refugees are running from Very Bad Things. I know this. You know it. We all know it. As a country, maybe even, we hold some measure of responsibility, for our destabilization of the Middle East. (I don't agree with this. I'm conceding that it's a valid point of view).
So here are the concessions I want from you:
-- Every human on the planet looks out for his/her own, first and foremost. You can post here, calling me to task for this statement, all you like, but at the end of the day, it's really pretty fucking simple: when confronted with a black and white situation where you have to allow one of YOURS to die in order to better the place in life of one of those refugees....you will REFUSE. I'm not asking. I'm TELLING you. This is what will happen:
SN Wright: "10 refugees will be fed, warm, and safe, so long as you're willing to give up one or more of those conditions for someone in your family."
Sgt/Sailor/Airman X: "Nope, I can do both. I can provide for my family AND 10 Syrian refugees.".
SN Wright: "Nope, you can't. There is a finite number of dollars, call it 100. Feeding your family, keeping them safe, COSTS that 100 dollars. So. If you want to extend those conditions to 10 Syrians, you have to choose whom among your family will go hungry...or remain unprotected."
I challenge you to tell me I'm wrong about this. Of course, the obvious counter-argument is 'But but but but THERE IS ENOUGH DOLLARS'.
No. No there's not. Allow me to flesh out my thought processes a bit, in order to explain this statement: to me, there are circles of 'MINE'. First and foremost, like everyone else, is my immediate family. Then extended family. Then fellow SM's and Vets. Then....every single AMERICAN out there. Yes. In my world view, they're my family BEFORE ANYONE ELSE IS. Now, I'm sure this is going to garner comments of 'You selfish bastard,' or 'You etho-centric prick', or whatever. That's fine. I'll take it. This post is about me and MY truth, so it's ok if you disagree.
So, back to my example. There's 100 dollars to get EVERYTHING possible, done, and YOU (the reader) are in charge of all of them. But there are caveats: 60 of those dollars can go towards feeding and keeping safe your immediate family. 20 of them can be allotted to your extended family. 10 of them can be allotted to security and safety (the military). You now have 10 discretionary dollars to spend on your 'super-extended' family (fellow Americans)....or Syrian refugees.
What do you choose?
If you disagree with me, your immediate reaction is going to be 'but that's not the case, there IS extra money, THERE IS!'. Again, I say: no. No matter how many trillions of dollars we can come up with, THE NUMBER IS FINITE.
Let me say that again: The number of dollars available IS FINITE. This cannot be argued. It's not open to debate. This is as immutable as gravity. If you drop a coke can [login to see] 0 times, it will fall DOWN, [login to see] 0 (I didn't count the zeroes so piss off if you're going to nit pick! :) ) times.
So. What do we give up, to give those Syrians a better life?
Veterans, and non-veteran Americans all over the country are homeless. American CHILDREN are homeless. Or can't get enough food. Can't make rent. Can't afford health costs. Our education system is in serious need of overhaul. Physical infrastructure (highways, bridges, rail lines, ports) are falling into disrepair. An over-bloated, INEFFECTIVE security apparatus (looking at you here, Homeland Security) -tries- to keep us safe, but...come on. We all know how THAT goes.
All of those situations are arising because we're ignoring them. We keep shipping some portion of those discretionary 10 dollars overseas, to do God Knows What. We sit here and argue about the credibility of AMERICAN WOMEN in combat, while we decry the plights of foreign women? Are you fucking kidding me?
Here's my position, at long last, as if it wasn't clear: ME AND MINE FIRST. And MINE includes every single goddamned AMERICAN on the planet, of any race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, BEFORE anyone else. If you want me to care about people outside of that circle, outside of the AMERICAN circle, GIVE ME MORE THAN 100 dollars.
Thing is...you can't. Because they don't exist.
So bring on the hate, I can take it. I can afford a moment to consider your point of view. Will you do the same for me?:
We should take care of AMERICANS, before we take care of the world.
Posted in these groups: 
Politics
World Affairs
Politics World Affairs
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 40
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The main question is not whether or not to help them; the question is WHERE to help them.
I would much prefer to carve out a safe zone in Syria protected by and supplied by the civilized world. These people do not have to be displaced.
The argument against bringing them here to the U.S. is that there are no data bases available to determine who these people are, and ISIS has said that it will use the refugees to slip fighters into Europe and the U.S. to kill us. Since we cannot tell the difference between the few killers and the mass of refugees, and since it only takes a few to do great damage, it is unwise to re-settle them here.
And finally, the experience in Europe is that they do not assimilate well, but form ghettos which breed discontent and Jihadis.
We do not need that here.
I would much prefer to carve out a safe zone in Syria protected by and supplied by the civilized world. These people do not have to be displaced.
The argument against bringing them here to the U.S. is that there are no data bases available to determine who these people are, and ISIS has said that it will use the refugees to slip fighters into Europe and the U.S. to kill us. Since we cannot tell the difference between the few killers and the mass of refugees, and since it only takes a few to do great damage, it is unwise to re-settle them here.
And finally, the experience in Europe is that they do not assimilate well, but form ghettos which breed discontent and Jihadis.
We do not need that here.
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SN Greg Wright
Capt Seid Waddell - Captain, I hear your point, and agree that there is some merit to it.
However...again, like gravity...there IS no getting around to it. The money WILL...and is...running out. You're correct that our government prints it at will...but that doesn't change the reality that says, at some point, it will all be called to account, one way or another. The more they print, the more worthless it is.
There simply is a tipping point where it all becomes futile.
So. I stand by my original point, respectfully.
However...again, like gravity...there IS no getting around to it. The money WILL...and is...running out. You're correct that our government prints it at will...but that doesn't change the reality that says, at some point, it will all be called to account, one way or another. The more they print, the more worthless it is.
There simply is a tipping point where it all becomes futile.
So. I stand by my original point, respectfully.
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Capt Seid Waddell
SN Greg Wright, and you have a good point with regard to dollar value, or purchasing power. If you quadruple the number of dollars in circulation and the value of the economy remains constant, each dollar will have 1/4 the value. Four times the dollars chasing a constant supply of goods.
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Where ohhhhh where can I dare ask..UAE maybe?!?!?! With the oil money they have and all the land they have where are they? Do not say neighbors to me for I see nothing closer than Canada and Mexico being our close neighbors. I have no problem with true refugees but most of what I have seen have been healthy strong bs looking for a way out.
If we spread our states with Islamic Sharia law then our Constitution Laws will not apply anymore because they will out number us on votes and force congress to change the laws to meet the Sharia as our new law. Look at what is going on in Europe. They are fighting for their own countries rules yet Islamic members are trying to force Sharia as the law.
Before anyone goes slamming me on this...my family has been through this already being Native American so one change was enough for us. I was brought up..not being white and not being black and not counting to anyone but myself (I was raised in the South born 1966) so I have seen race issues and faced then with my head held high.Now back to the topic.
England has no go zones..Germany has no go zones..France has no go zones... heck we the great USA has no go zones due to say: Muslim or Islamic controlled areas. The no go zones are for your protection because you are not welcome there unless you are: Muslim or Islamic.
Maybe just a rant but maybe not...I am locked and loaded to protect my family is all I can tell you..
Chuck D
If we spread our states with Islamic Sharia law then our Constitution Laws will not apply anymore because they will out number us on votes and force congress to change the laws to meet the Sharia as our new law. Look at what is going on in Europe. They are fighting for their own countries rules yet Islamic members are trying to force Sharia as the law.
Before anyone goes slamming me on this...my family has been through this already being Native American so one change was enough for us. I was brought up..not being white and not being black and not counting to anyone but myself (I was raised in the South born 1966) so I have seen race issues and faced then with my head held high.Now back to the topic.
England has no go zones..Germany has no go zones..France has no go zones... heck we the great USA has no go zones due to say: Muslim or Islamic controlled areas. The no go zones are for your protection because you are not welcome there unless you are: Muslim or Islamic.
Maybe just a rant but maybe not...I am locked and loaded to protect my family is all I can tell you..
Chuck D
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PO1 (Join to see)
It’s somewhat ironic: the Arab countries don’t want to take the refugees because they’re concerned about extremists infiltrating the herd and starting unrest in whatever country they are in.
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A1C Charles D Wilson
True .. and then they call us to fight for them while they hide behind the dunes looking at our soldiers do the deed.
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I do not believe that this is a monetary issue, although your premise about monetization in a macro-economy is on point. The cost is more of a moral one. When the President announced that we would take in 100k Syrians, he was subordinating the discussion, in my mind for political reasons, to get a debate going that distracts from the obvious failure of US policy in regards to Syria. And it works - we aren't talking about training Free Syrian Army muldoons or conceding leadership in the fight to Russia or Iran, we are talking about a domestic issue now and social justice... exactly the topics the President wants to talk about at this stage. It is a classic redirection. And we are falling for it.
Back to my point.
The moral imperative of the USA is to welcome those who wish to breathe free. It is what we are founded upon, and every last one of you (save the occasional Native American members) is the descendant of immigrants, or one yourself. Nothing makes an Irishman fleeing the Troubles or the Potato Famine any different or better than a Cambodian fleeing the Killing Fields or a Somali fleeing the conflict there. NOTHING. There were criminals in every group. There were Japanese spies, and German ones. Folks with sympathies to the British Empire or the Soviet Union. Yet, we persevered. The spirit of America has brought us this far.
The questions I ask myself are twofold:
1. Does the spirit of America still live? I watch current events, and sadly I have to admit that it does not. We are so busy being entitled and offended and oppressed that we have given up our drive to build the American Dream and replaced it with a drive to be on the dole. This policy only brings others onto the dole, and I will be asked to pay for not just my neighbors, but also some foisted upon me by a government that would rather serve their own interests over mine - including some who are actually my enemy. That is a bitter pill to swallow.
2. Do I trust my government to "vet" these people and ensure the security of my family and my nation? For the answer, I need only to look to the South, where known criminals are released back into the public on their own recognizance despite egregious crimes because "the prisons are full" or some misguided "Sanctuary City" conceit. A government that is ineffective in dealing with a current problem should not be actively pursuing making that problem bigger, and likely diverting assets away from the latent issue in order to service the newly-introduced one. This makes no sense... unless it is purposeful. And I think that it is.
Back to my point.
The moral imperative of the USA is to welcome those who wish to breathe free. It is what we are founded upon, and every last one of you (save the occasional Native American members) is the descendant of immigrants, or one yourself. Nothing makes an Irishman fleeing the Troubles or the Potato Famine any different or better than a Cambodian fleeing the Killing Fields or a Somali fleeing the conflict there. NOTHING. There were criminals in every group. There were Japanese spies, and German ones. Folks with sympathies to the British Empire or the Soviet Union. Yet, we persevered. The spirit of America has brought us this far.
The questions I ask myself are twofold:
1. Does the spirit of America still live? I watch current events, and sadly I have to admit that it does not. We are so busy being entitled and offended and oppressed that we have given up our drive to build the American Dream and replaced it with a drive to be on the dole. This policy only brings others onto the dole, and I will be asked to pay for not just my neighbors, but also some foisted upon me by a government that would rather serve their own interests over mine - including some who are actually my enemy. That is a bitter pill to swallow.
2. Do I trust my government to "vet" these people and ensure the security of my family and my nation? For the answer, I need only to look to the South, where known criminals are released back into the public on their own recognizance despite egregious crimes because "the prisons are full" or some misguided "Sanctuary City" conceit. A government that is ineffective in dealing with a current problem should not be actively pursuing making that problem bigger, and likely diverting assets away from the latent issue in order to service the newly-introduced one. This makes no sense... unless it is purposeful. And I think that it is.
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CDR William Kempner
Very sage. I agree with all.
The "Great Transformer" has done just that-and it only took him seven years! The Syrian refugees will spell the end of our nation. It will take a while for us to die off, but ISIS will be sending their people to infiltrate, and there will be repeats of Paris, here in the US.(Anyone who doesn't see that is either blind or just not paying attention.) And I THINK it is part of the plan.
The "Great Transformer" has done just that-and it only took him seven years! The Syrian refugees will spell the end of our nation. It will take a while for us to die off, but ISIS will be sending their people to infiltrate, and there will be repeats of Paris, here in the US.(Anyone who doesn't see that is either blind or just not paying attention.) And I THINK it is part of the plan.
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SSG Todd Halverson
You do have some very valid points. But, as Teddy Roosevelt said, if they want to come into our country they must assimilate to our culture and not us to theirs. Which, with all the concerns over the Muslim's freedom of religion, is not what is happening in today's society.
Another question I have is would you willingly let a potential enemy combatant walk freely into your backyard. There is no way anyone can safely "vet" the refugees, as proven in Europe.
Another question I have is would you willingly let a potential enemy combatant walk freely into your backyard. There is no way anyone can safely "vet" the refugees, as proven in Europe.
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MSG William Wold
As you refine metal, you add different components, that as melted together, become stronger than one individual component. That is what Americans did, they left their impoverished places, tired and hungry, longing to be free. They came here, learned the language, the culture and became strong as a nation. As you might also know any impurities within a metal make it weaker, and there is actually a tolerance of a certain percentage that is allowable and still be considered good metal. But there comes a time of percentages of impurities that the batch of metal is no longer useable.
People came here with not much, they made it or died trying. They brought skills, tools, ideas, and shared them. This current generation doesn't know what that is like, they are the ME and handout generation. Just go over to that machine and money comes out. They get free phones, free housing, food health care. Someone has to pay for it. Gee I left my ID at home but that is who I am; ok, now just pull that handle and more money will come to you when that person gets elected. This country cannot sustain existence much longer with the debt it has and wants to spend more. The very countries of like similar cultures will not take one of these people, that should say something other than selfishness, they know and understand the outcome.
People came here with not much, they made it or died trying. They brought skills, tools, ideas, and shared them. This current generation doesn't know what that is like, they are the ME and handout generation. Just go over to that machine and money comes out. They get free phones, free housing, food health care. Someone has to pay for it. Gee I left my ID at home but that is who I am; ok, now just pull that handle and more money will come to you when that person gets elected. This country cannot sustain existence much longer with the debt it has and wants to spend more. The very countries of like similar cultures will not take one of these people, that should say something other than selfishness, they know and understand the outcome.
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