Talking to a buddy about safety

2019-12-17T16:57:23-05:00

Your buddy calls you late at night and tells you about all of the negativity going on in their life. As you listen to them describe his emotional distress, you pick up on some clues that lead you to think that this is a crisis situation. You also remember that they are a firearm owner. You want to ask about their guns because you know it’s not a safe situation under the circumstances, but you’re concerned that they will either hang up on you or, worse, that you’ll put an idea in his mind. What do you do?

People in distress can go from 0 to 60 very fast. Somewhere between 25% and 40% of individuals who attempt suicide make the final decision to act within 5 minutes of the suicide attempt. Nearly 70% make the final decision to act within the hour before their attempt. Easy access to potentially lethal methods for suicide—especially firearms—during periods of intense emotional distress increases the likelihood of bad outcomes such as suicide.

Temporarily limiting someone’s access to firearms and other possible methods for suicide during these periods can reduce the likelihood of a bad outcome, however, it’s similar to how we try to prevent our friends from getting in a car crash when they’ve been drinking. We know that the risk of a car crash increases when someone has been drinking. Because of this, we temporarily restrict access to driving—typically by taking away someone’s keys—when they’ve been drinking. When the person sobers up, we give them their keys back; we don’t prohibit them from driving ever again.

We can prevent suicides using the same mindset. When someone is under a lot of stress, having easy access to a firearm or other methods for suicide can be dangerous. During these times, we can offer to temporarily store a friend’s firearms, medications, or other possible suicide methods until things get better, just like we hold on to their keys when they’ve been drinking.

Here’s an example of how you can raise the issue:

It sounds like things haven’t been going well for you lately. I’m worried about you. Would you be willing to let me hang on to your guns/medications for a while until things get better?

If they don’t feel comfortable with this, consider asking them if they’d be willing to change how they store their firearms or medications instead:

What are your thoughts about storing your guns/medications in a safe or locking them up in another way?

Talking with a friend about locking up or temporarily limiting their access to a firearm or another possible method for suicide can be a difficult topic to discuss, but it can be a simple and effective strategy for helping them get through tough times.

[Video: https://vimeo.com/175761640]

*To learn more about the National Center of Veterans Studies programs visit: https://rly.pt/NCVS

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2019 5:09 PM

2019-12-17T17:09:18-05:00

I just went thru the US Army ACE-SI training that encompassed this very type of scenario

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Dec 17 at 2019 5:16 PM

2019-12-17T17:16:36-05:00

I went thru something like this during basic, talked a fellow recruit out of doing something stupid, we didn't know that another of the group would be the one that did it instead.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Dec 17 at 2019 5:24 PM

2019-12-17T17:24:22-05:00

There are thousands of ways to commit suicide. Taking or having the law take his firearm will only make him angrier. My best friend committed suicide. I blamed myself for not seeing it coming. I was hurt at first and later became angry at him for doing this. He had a series of bad events that happened within 24 hours back in 1991. We had both retired at the same time and were promised jobs that no longer existed. We couldn't find a steady job anywhere in Fayetteville. He lost his part time job, his wife left him that afternoon and got a DUI later that evening. He shot himself with his M1A Match Rifle in his garage and bleed to death. Some things you can't predict. I consider suicide an act of getting back at people that love you. It is the ultimate act of hurting the one you love. There are many reasons that people do it and I knew two people that did it to get back at their family. I hope that God has mercy on Dave Zavittz and Tommy Harrington that shot himself in 2010 to get back at his wife and girls. Tommy had planned to kill himself when his wife and girls came home from school. He was already separated and just decided to do it. I don't believe taking guns away will prevent suicide. Once it happens they will not get them back and will use another method. Opinions vary......

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2019 5:25 PM

2019-12-17T17:25:52-05:00

I have taken this phone call twice.
Both times, I stopped what I was doing and found them - one of them halfway across from Wisconsin from me.
The best defense against suicide when you get the call is to care. Not like say you do, ACTUALLY CARE. They will know if you are feigning interest. Honestly, if they're calling you, it is because you are someone they want to talk to when stuff goes sideways. Rise to the occasion.
Bring in support from trained people as the situation allows, but chances are you are the make or break point.

Response by LTC Lee Bouchard made Dec 17 at 2019 7:50 PM

2019-12-17T19:50:53-05:00

Why did the issue of firearms enter into this buddy issue? Access to anything that can be used to harm themselves is the issue. I have lost 3 good friends to suicide. None used a gun. Drug overdose
(more accessible and easily acquired) and drunk driving into a concrete wall at 100 + mph. Try focusing on issues and not the tools for harming oneself. I am so tiered of people like you chasing guns as the cause and the ignoring all other more likely safety concerns.

Viet Nam veterans suicide rates began the, now well over 100,000, cause for awareness nationally. Once this study began, by accident, did the nation become aware of the suicide rates among teens and the elderly. It was the V.N. veteran population that made the medical community aware of something called PTSD. Before (us) the medical community called it a "syndrome" and not treatable. Only when veterans went to war with this popular concept did we change how we treat all population groups prone to suicide or suffer from PTSD. V.N. veterans are the primary reason the V.A. has now opened its doors and expanded the care given todays veterans. Plus, making your studies possible.

I don't know how old you are but your education background is short of being noteworthy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2019 4:49 AM

2019-12-18T04:49:10-05:00

If you want to take away my firearms, for any reason, we aren't friends anymore.

Response by SFC William Farrell made Dec 20 at 2019 8:46 AM

2019-12-20T08:46:51-05:00

Is this an anti gun post or a dioxide awareness article TSgt AnnaBelle Bryan ?

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Dec 20 at 2019 5:57 PM

2019-12-20T17:57:17-05:00

No thanks...

Response by Sgt John Steinmeier made Dec 23 at 2019 9:04 AM

2019-12-23T09:04:16-05:00

I have gone through this with my best friend, I have also referred to him as my little brother from a different family. It was always a matter to get with him and not make it only a phone call. Easier said than done in other situations for other people. Whether he came to me or I went to him it was to make sure he wasn't alone.

Response by SSgt Anita Heuss made Dec 23 at 2019 7:47 PM

2019-12-23T19:47:13-05:00

I have been on both sides of the equation.
After I gave birth in 1982 I dropped into a abyss I almost never got out of. Luckily for me as a child I had a school mate that had lost his mother to suicide. His discription of his fleelings never allowed me to convince myself my child would truely be better off with my death. The problem though got worse as that at some point before or during the post natel my immune system decided it no longer viewed my thyroid gland as part of me and decided to kill it.
It was almost two decades before they made a proper diagnosis and were able to stabalize me on medication. During that time I discovered a couple of things I pass on to people who are going through depression. First of all alcohol is as dangerous as any weapon they might have access to. I am not talking about the person being an alcoholic either. Even a small amount can dump you from a semi-stable mental outlook and into the pits. The second is that mother nature provides us a free antidepressent. It is called sunshine. You can get it in it's natural form for free or if you can get it in the form of a light box for about $25 to $30 bucks. I would say you could get it in the form of a 250 watt incandescent light bulb but I know something about electrical circuits and I don't want what I say to end up burning somebody's house down. Light is not a cure all but I know for a fact any little bit helps when you are hanging over the edge of the clift.
On the other side of the issue I have won one and I have lost one. The win was my own brother, a Vietnam era vet suffering from demons he had shared with no one for over three decades. The truth was he could have probably arrested most of the family cause we removed his guns. He is doing great now after years in treatment and none of us are interested in anyone whining about what the family did to save him, least of all him.
The loss is and was much more painful. She was a civilian co-worker long after I left the military. She was in an abusive, both physical and emotional, relationship. She was also an alcoholic. She had left him several times and several people had taken her in and tried to get her help but she always went back to him. That particular day she came to me for sympathy and told me he had brought another woman into the house and told her she could accept it or leave. I comforted her as best I could, offered to help her leave again which she turned down. She told me she planned to leave but she wasn't ready yet. I asked her several times if there was anything I could do to help her and was she sure she was going to be ok and she promised me if things got out of hand she would call on me or someone else. Instead according to those that investigated it she went home, got into an argument with him and then got drunk, put a gun in her mouth and pulled the trigger. It was difficult but realized there was nothing else I could have done. Once she had started drinking all bets were off. I am not totally against drinking but when you are significantly depressed it can be deadly. It's danger should never be overlooked in dealing with people on the edge. Given the choice between trying to take the gun or dumping the booze down the drain I would dump the booze. If they decide to harm themselves they can do it without the gun. The alcohol makes that choice much more likely.
I recognized the danger to myself early on and cut it out for years until I was diagnosed and properly medicated and even now it is rare. Anyway that is my take on things for what it is worth.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2019 11:19 AM

2019-12-24T11:19:10-05:00

Just want to put out there that studies have shown asking directly about suicide is not more likely to make someone attempt suicide. We should never be afraid to ask for fear of putting the thought in their head.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2019 2:12 PM

2019-12-25T14:12:31-05:00

Taken this call a few times. ASIST is a great course if you can get the training.

Response by PO1 Mary Vermont made Dec 25 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-12-25T20:09:51-05:00

Find a way that doesn't cause a red flag to kick in.

Response by TSgt Joe C. made Dec 25 at 2019 10:04 PM

2019-12-25T22:04:55-05:00

I would definitely stop what I was doing and assist as much as I could. If it involves the cops, so be it. First Sgt too. I would help them seek out the help they need!

Response by CPT Tzvi Mejer made Dec 26 at 2019 9:44 AM

2019-12-26T09:44:52-05:00

In my experience a combat vet will be reluctant to “ open up “ and talk about his issues with a person that has not had a similar experience meaning combat, that includes professional health care people and may be open to seek relief from a combat brother.
It is difficult for somebody without a combat background to comprehend what you feel and situations that may be triggered by a sound or smell, if you “ haven’t been there”. That is why is so important to be receptive always and very mindful of your response.
I’m sure that many of you brothers understand exactly what i’m saying.
All the best to you all on this holiday season and praying that no more brothers will become casualties after the service.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Dec 26 at 2019 1:37 PM

2019-12-26T13:37:42-05:00

This assumes it's legal in every jurisdictions for one person to hand their firearms over to another person and for the other person to take possession of them. In many jurisdictions, one or both of the people involved would be breaking the law.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Dec 30 at 2019 12:19 AM

2019-12-30T00:19:02-05:00

TSgt AnnaBelle Bryan I’ve taken 100s of these calls. First, I find out the location of my friend (the caller) Second, I use the person’s name. Third, I engage in conversation. Simple topics first and gather information as we talk. This buys enough time to get a welfare check done by a third party. Taking the guns away doesn’t solve the issue. I don’t own guns. I do have a plan, the opportunity and the experience.

To answer this specific situation, I would suggest meeting up to do anything. Bowling, wandering the aisles of a grocery store, looking at photos. (Especially family photos) I identify one thing that makes the person stop and remember why he/she lives. It may be a dog. It may be a child. It may be a promise to a buddy.

I acknowledge the person is a human being with feelings. This is key. We have to remind the caller/ buddy he/she is a human being and 1 person cares. Cares enough to stop what we are doing and go meet.

We start with 1.

If you need a 1, call me. [login to see] .

Response by SGT Kevin Hughes made Dec 30 at 2019 7:20 AM

2019-12-30T07:20:47-05:00

I read just about every post on this thread- the amount of compassion, care, and empathy is simply astounding. One theme that comes up; whether Combat Vets should talk with only other Combat Vets; I am not sure is good advice. People open up sometimes to strangers (the bartender affect), sometimes they open up to close friends and loved ones. And sometimes they open up to other Combat Vets. And many open up to either God- or to their Preacher, Priest, or Rabbi.
Depression to the level this thread talks about, is not unique to the Military. Yet Combat Vets do have a particular niche - in that doing their Duty conflicts with how they wanted their lives to be, or turn out. And sometimes, but not always, that shared understanding is the one to reach out to.

I remember being at a party when a lady opened her oven to check on what she was baking. An Iraqi Vet was standing next to her and didn't know she was going to open the oven. When she did...he literally leaped over the open oven and ran right thru a screen door into the backyard. A lot of folks laughed, and he tried to play it off. I asked him if he wanted to go for a walk.

So we did.

He told me that whenever he feels a blast of dry heat, it takes him right back to being blown up in his HummVee. "Kevin, I never use the oven at my house. And I won't even go in a Pizza Shop to pick up my Pizza...I send my girlfriend in." How many people in Civilian life would realize that a Pizza Oven, or home oven, could be a powerful trigger? He did laugh a little (always a good sign if it isn't followed with sadness). "I guess I will never retire to Arizona...it is a dry heat."
I laughed at his joke ( because it was funny, and like a lot of good Humor, there was truth to it."

I hugged him and we walked back to the house. I never told anyone what he told me, except for my Kathy. And now you folks. Anyone blown up in a HummVee probably would understand FULLY what this Soldier was going through. People like me would be helpless...except to be able to listen, and go for a walk.

Response by CPT Paul Whitmer made Jan 1 at 2020 1:12 PM

2020-01-01T13:12:49-05:00

Lumping guns and meds together seems like a familiar tactic when discussing this topic. I'm not sure how beneficial this really is - but anyone with a PTSD/TBI diagnosis can tell you the VA (and others) seem focused on making the two a singular, inseparable item.

Response by SGT Christopher Churilla made Jan 2 at 2020 3:10 AM

2020-01-02T03:10:04-05:00

I'm an ASIST trainer and haven't been in such a situation but here's what I've been taught:

If you're concerned they're having suicidal thoughts, ask directly. Asking the question usually doesn't put the idea in their head. Either they're already thinking it and are relieved someone has picked up on the signal or they're not and deny it (hopefully they're telling the truth).

If they have access to a firearm, I would recommend calling the police.

Response by LTC Edward Clark made Jan 2 at 2020 9:44 AM

2020-01-02T09:44:43-05:00

We make the mistake of telling our brothers and sisters to reach out when they are so emotionally wounded, they consider taking their own life. As we would if they were shot and wounded in a kill zone, we have to rush to their aid when we see they are wounded and not wait for them to ask for help. I have upset a few brothers as they stated they were not in crisis. I would rather make him mad than attend his funeral.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Jan 7 at 2020 12:12 AM

2020-01-07T00:12:32-05:00

As a three time attempted suicide survivor and retired (sober for 30 years) therapist; this approach would not have been effective in my situations. I made split-second decisions before swallowing a full bottle of my prescription medication.
I did a Lot of "Crisis Intervention" in my career and now in life. Picking up on key words and tone of voice is imperative in these cases. I have found talking and listening is extremely effective in suicide prevention.. I have 'kept' people engaged in telephone conversation with me while I notified Law Enforcement and they conducted a "Health & Welfare" check on the person.
I think it is imperative to keep a person engaged in conversation, as this seems to de-escalate sucidial ideations.
In My case, I made a sudden, rash decision quietly and independently. My friends noticed slurred speech and took me to the Hospital.
My CO arrived ( very angry), made sure I was okay (?) and the next day issued Me an ARTICLE 15 for "attempted destruction of Military Property". That was in 1984! NO MH services, just Military reprimand!
Good to Know NOW MH issues are handled extremely differently!
I was a "Crisis On-Call" employee for MH in Onslow County NC and responsible for identification, intervention, assessment, and referral. I am trained in Substance Abuse intervention, assessment, diagnosis, and treatment referral.
Through my experiences, I have discovered people who discuss ways of taking their life are Actually asking for help. Taking Away someone's weapon (and sense of security) could be detrimental.
I was injured in Basic Training and 'Lived On' pain pills! If Anyone Even Suggested I relinquish My medications, I would have Totally and Permanently eliminated THAT person from My life.
I believe Each situation is Unique and requires Individualized Intervention Techniques.
I am NOT an Expert! However, I am a trained professional and My experiences are unique to my career. Don't know if any of this assists you in answering your question. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to 'connect' with me. Nancy

Response by Sgt Ivan Boatwright made Jan 13 at 2020 12:31 PM

2020-01-13T12:31:07-05:00

Firearms are just a small factor in who dies by their own hand. Two or maybe three times I have considered it with a 45 auto twice and played Russian roulette once. Frustration and emptiness lead to the solution of death. It was not death I wanted, only hope in some form. The problem of death by sel-inflicted means is that others will suffer and that is harder than death unless there is no-one you care about or maybe you are so wrapped up in self-pity that others do not matter. I have known others who did themselves in and that is why after thoughtful considerations I did not relieve my pain which eventually went into the crapper. After the last time with a 357 pistol and almost being successful, I never tried again. I hurt but I know it will pass and if it is bad enough, I will leave and disappear into a place never to be found or seen again. Today's world gives no hope of a future. I am still here.

Response by SFC David S made Jan 14 at 2020 12:40 AM

2020-01-14T00:40:40-05:00

I have helped one SGT going through a bad time and he drank bleach and other poisons. He would only talk through the door to me, once the door was cracked I pre-arranged to have the MPs bust in and get him to treatment. It worked and he lived.

another situation, my driver during OIF and OEF attempted suicide by prescription pills, thank god he lived, I feel like I wasn't there for him.

guns are a concern, but after we got back a soldier I knew committed suicide by cop, and he didn't have a gun. He just wanted to see his children and his wife had moved on. A truly sad situation.

thanks to the VA I am able to see a counselor once a month to discuss PTSD (which I was not supposed to get). My wife doesn't want to hear "I stepped on a severed head during a recovery mission" so I have my God to talk to.

take guns out of the conversation because they intensify any conversation and situation.

I personally am holding onto hope to see my two beautiful granddaughters someday.......a reason to live. also, don't ask if you are suicidal, ask why you decided to not die or why you want to live today. It's always one day at a time.

and of course get them to a trained professional...

I hope I'm not too off base here. I really hope this info might help someone.

Response by FN Randy Bohlke made Jan 16 at 2020 4:15 AM

2020-01-16T04:15:22-05:00

When is it appropriate to take someone's Constitutional and God given right to protect themselves away from them? I understand protecting someone who you think may harm themselves but the phrase shall not be infringed upon has been trampled upon a lot lately and a Veteran is the last person who should have any rights stripped away from them after they offered their lives for their Country. I'm not saying we shouldn't protect our Veterans every way we can just saying we have to be careful when it comes to violating their rights and these stupid red flag laws civilians are trying to push.

Response by SPC Richard Zacke made Jan 26 at 2020 6:13 PM

2020-01-26T18:13:22-05:00

I have not got this call and hope I never do. My advice is he or she is reaching out to you so YOU may be their last resort just remember everything you tell them must come from the heart. Ask them "What about me? You will leave me with a gap in my heart." Remind them about all the good times you shared together and don't be affraid to tell them that you are being a little selfish because you can't invision yourself without them. Remind them of everyone they will not only leave behind but hurt greatly. Add that their mother would be a wreck and that could cause her health to decline. Also mention siblings mourning their beloved brother/sister. Offer to go to church with them because GOD can heal a wounded heart. Be sincer because if your not they will pick up on it. Offer to hold their weapons till the darkness passes. Explain to them that you are literlly "blood brothers/sisters". We need to help these brave souls from harming themselfs or others. LET THEM KNOW YOU LOVE THEM!!! GOD bless and good luck.
One more thing you may need help reach out to the VA or your local law enforcement as a last resort.

Response by Mike Burro made Feb 3 at 2020 1:49 AM

2020-02-03T01:49:09-05:00

Excellent information ℹ️
So important! Thank You!

Response by Sgt Dennis Gray made Feb 18 at 2020 10:49 PM

2020-02-18T22:49:22-05:00

I have attempted suicide and have known several others. I have also known several people that where in my opinion. A danger to themselves or others. Just like telling an angry man to calm down, Suggesting that such a person surrender their weapon is a recipe for disaster. Like the Md. case where police were forced to kill a man when they came to take his guns until he was deemed safe. Instead, I always try to separate the person from the danger. Much easier to say hey we are going to have to go through a weapons check than. Give me your gun and leave yourself at my mercy.

Response by SMSgt Bob W. made Mar 9 at 2020 3:39 PM

2020-03-09T15:39:17-04:00

In the same city or close in distance. Meet them for coffee or lunch. Yes, show you care and try to assist in defusing the situation. In another city, call someone close to you friend and see if they can intervene--

Response by SMSgt Bob W. made Mar 9 at 2020 3:41 PM

2020-03-09T15:41:47-04:00

Initial contact of caring is important; however, professional help is needed. Go to the ER with them. Go the the Counselor with them. Just show you are there.

Response by SP5 Ward Posey made Mar 11 at 2020 9:38 AM

2020-03-11T09:38:01-04:00

Excellent post. I had that discussion with a buddy about 8 years ago. I still have his pistol. Unfortunately he passed three years ago due to pancreatic cancer, but I think taking that pistol out of his reach prolonged his life. After he gave it to me he never asked for it back , even though the demons would return to him once in awhile. Being there for him was important.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Mar 15 at 2020 6:02 PM

2020-03-15T18:02:51-04:00

Awesome response. When someone is reaching out; drop everything and do what you can to help.We all need assistance in our lives. Helping a fellow veteran is what a patriotic human should do. The consideration you demonstrate for them will remain in your heart forever. Thanks in advance for anyone reading this and a special thanks for someone who adheres to it.

Response by MSG Andrew Whitish made Apr 1 at 2020 7:52 PM

2020-04-01T19:52:07-04:00

For the love of Pete, it's not about talking to the individual, it's all about LISTENING!!!!

Response by Cpl Eric Day made Apr 12 at 2020 1:57 PM

2020-04-12T13:57:39-04:00

we talk about how hilarious that safety brief was and the only reason we had one is because mahon was found laid out on the catwalk again piss drunk. that fucking guy.

Response by Maj Scott Kiger, M.A.S. made Apr 13 at 2020 3:05 PM

2020-04-13T15:05:43-04:00

I think we all or at least most would have the inclination to think that mentioning the firearm might lead them that way. Its almost like you are affirming their decision...

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Apr 25 at 2020 12:52 PM

2020-04-25T12:52:30-04:00

Also:
In as much as a Soldier's training includes "how to kill," & for that matter, additionally, Medical Troops also learn A&P (Anatomy & Physiology), the Soldier would be knowledgeable on how to make a kill or suicide a "first time go."

Response by Sandy Linden made May 25 at 2020 3:11 PM

2020-05-25T15:11:20-04:00

Also remember 14 of the 17 VETERANS suicides (no active duty) are over age 50, no longer use the VA and are still most often Vietnam Veterans

Post 9/11 w PTSD do have suicidal ideation but seldom act on it. They have the fewest death by suicide

Response by Maggie Tamulis made Nov 5 at 2020 9:05 AM

2020-11-05T09:05:52-05:00

I dealt with this situation once at the VA hospital where I worked...I was walking down the hallway and saw an elderly couple with their adult son in a wheelchair...I knew they were distressed and so was their son who was hanging his head...I asked what was wrong and they told me their son was not doing well, he was also intoxicated, and they had taken him to the county hospital mental health department but they would not take him because he was intoxicated...then then brought him to the VA hospital and they were told the same thing and they were afraid of what he might do to them or himself if he went home. I went upstairs to the counselors offices and saw a mental health counselor in his office with the door open so I went in and told him about the couple. He started giving me reasons he could not help them and being familiar with the Hospital Chief of Staff I told him that if he didn't take time to talk with the couple and their son that I would go to the Chief of Staff and let him know that nothing had been done. I do not know the outcome as it was not in my "grade level" to know what happened but I was not called into anyone's office as a result of my conversation with the couple, their son or the mental health counselor. I have personally dealt with a friend through his struggle with alcohol and being there for him has helped him but he does not have any firearms so no worry there...I recognize he has had instances in his military career that bother him and needs someone who understands, as much as I can, but being a military brat helps. Not sure if this is the right response but I have been in a crisis situation myself and know how desperate one feels when they have lost hope and someone caring and understanding is a big part of dealing with despair...!!