What are your thoughts on temporary NCO promotions without PME?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:08:20 -0500

What are your thoughts on temporary NCO promotions without PME? Over 50k promotions have been given yet over 10k recipients have not completed PME

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2024 5:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:22:27 -0500

Received "Acting" SGT E-5 stripes after 1 month in Vietnam... but didn't get actual orders until 2 months before I left.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jan 24 at 2024 9:55 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 24 Jan 2024 21:55:10 -0500

The number of ‘Acting Jack’ NCOs being appointed reveals Big Army concept that is broken! W/o as many fingers in the pie as an acceptable PT test, it still represents another failed concept! Cpl Vic Burk SGT Philip Roncari SFC William Farrell PO1 H Gene Lawrence MSG Joseph Cristofaro LTC Private RallyPoint Member LTC Stephen C. LTC Stephen F.Lt Col Charlie Brown SPC Private RallyPoint Member Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen [~332475:SSG Warren Swan

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 25 at 2024 7:46 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 07:46:07 -0500

The Army should follow training requirements associated with selection and promotion holding units responsible for the individual meeting requirements before promotion. Promotion award indicates someone has met all of the prerequisites. In this case not.

Officers education keeps pace with selection and promotion so should NCO selection and promotion.

The math is simple, calculate the need-provide the resources. It is the Army's respknsibility to ensure it provides resources required to ensure the NCO is properly prepared.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Jan 25 at 2024 8:38 AM

CSM William Everroad — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 08:38:32 -0500

1SG Private RallyPoint Member This is an ongoing "which school of thought" are you in conversation that happens someones.

On one hand, they have done the time and have the experience in the MOS, presumably they have the leadership skill and the Army promoted some great NCOs in the past with zero PME who went on to do great things. Today, they will eventually get their PME (because their CSM will be on a $!%* call every other week to tell the same people the same thing about quotas they did on the last call), and the Army is short NCOs anyway. Why not throw someone in the spot who can get the job done and pay them for the work at the appropriate level? If it's stupid and works, it's not stupid. Generally, most of these NCOs will get the job done, get their PME completed and move on.

On the other hand, the NCO corps is playing catch up. The initiatives to "professionalize" NCOs in the same vein as Officer Development is still pretty young. This includes robust PME that develops along the Army Leadership Model: comprised of Attributes (A) (Character, Presence, and Intellect) and Competencies (C) (Leads, Develops, and Achieves). If that is our goal, temporary promotions may undermine that objective if that development occurs in the institutional domain (PME) instead of the organizational (ULDP). We are throwing people into leadership positions without the base understanding of the core A/C required just to fill a gap. It works, but what is the effect? For however long this NCO is in a position, they are building a team culture based on what they know to date. They are "developing" their subordinates based on what they know to date. As well all know, most times they do not have the whole picture yet and these leaders tend to devolve into the leadership style that revolves around their authority and ability to say, "just do what I say".

Junior Soldiers today are far more 'educated' today, and this leadership style is not as efficient or work as often or on as many Soldiers as it used to. They can spot a weak leader from a mile away and with so many that lack this understanding, chances are not only is their FLL not outstanding, but their Squad Leader may not be either.

All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; we are supposed to provide that leadership. In each of the development domains we are failing our Soldiers:

Institutional: some courses are Soldiers mills, sure we accredit our courses, but we move them through without ensuring they completely understand how they apply the basic Learning Objectives and we don't have enough instructors to seat enough classes to accommodate the need to promote.
Organizational: How many units (BN/BDE) have actual honest to goodness Unit Leader Development Plans that meet doctrinal requirements? Sure we throw NCODP and ODP on the schedule and make them do IDPs, but does all of that align with the METs and the Army Leadership Development Model.
Operational: are we really putting Soldiers in broadening and operational assignments (and noting them correctly on NCOERs) that develop them according to their strengths or are we caught up in "progression" assignments? Do we billet our additional duties strategically or just fill gaps? The assumption is every NCO has been the NCOIC of a range, been an ADSNCO, UPL, SARC, etc. But to they actually have the diversity of experiences necessary to build a well rounded NCO in 10 years for consideration of 1SG?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2024 10:21 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 10:21:15 -0500

I am torn on this one, actually.

Myself having gone thru the ranks with a mix of when I got my next rank vs when I went to school...I am an odd duck. I went to PLDC/WLC/BLC (whatever the name wants to be) prior to making Sergeant after having been Boarded. Once eligible, I completed ALC Common Core (Now DLC 2), then Boarded, promoted to SSG, then ALC Phase 2 and 3 complete. For SFC and MSG, I was Boarded then schooled prior to promotion. That's my experience.

Now, I have seen many Soldiers receive their ETP promotions that whole hearted deserved them. Of these Soldiers, they needed to get the ETP promotion because for whatever reason the slots for schools were non-existent or those seats were given to others because those others were front-loaded. Or just plain laziness on BN/BDE Schools NCOs that didn't want to do the work to click a button for schools submission.

Then there are those I have seen that were given an ETP promotion but still needed time to cook in the oven. My most recent deployment, I saw several Soldiers receive the ETP but sucked. They received no mentorship in their previous rank and were still not receiving mentorship in the new rank. Playing favorites with the Juniors. Cow-towing to certain NCOs and Officers above them. I can't say they were bad NCOs because I was not around them often (different units), but when I was around them, watching, they were not good NCOs. Almost acting on the mantra of "pay grade."

Then, you have the issue I stated above about school slots. When you try to sell the STEP program to Soldiers, getting them to hit all their marks, when trying to submit them for the appropriate level PME, they are put on the back burner or denied because all the ETP promotees are frontloaded so they don't lose their newly given rank.

In the end, I see good and bad with this program. Deserving Soldiers that can't get into school and not-ready Soldiers getting ETPs to fill the void of NCOs.

As a SFC Drill Sergeant in my Senior Leader Course (had been waiting for a slot after 5 years being a SFC), said..."If there are exceptions to policies, then why have policies?"

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jan 25 at 2024 1:28 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 13:28:27 -0500

My feeling if You hadn't bothered to complete Your PME requirements while You were building the time in grade, time in service You might never do so. There are provisional promotion that work that some do take the effort but others are only temporary as thee was no follow through to complete the PME requirements. As far as I'm concerned if You had the time to complete Your PME and didn't whose fault is that ? The answer is apparent in my opinion and the fault lays with the person that failed to complete or enroll in that upgrade training.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2024 8:38 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 08:38:45 -0500

I don't like it for the obvious reason; a SGT is not qualified in rank until they complete BLC, SSG with ALC, etc.
The justification was that we have more NCO vacancies than we have total PME seats every year. That's true, but that number of seats is a budget issue, and that's just correctable with the hard decision to underfund something less critical than qualifying Soldiers.
The underlying reason is retention, and it's not the first time they've done this in my career; in the late 90s, a SPC could receive a promotion to SGT simply by reenlisting, regardless of points or PME completed. The results were as bad as it sounds.
At least the current version sets the time limit to complete school, the previous ETP a couple years ago did not account for that.
COMPO 1 can manage this easier, when HRC processes the promotion, they process the reservation for the required PME.
In COMPO 2 and 3, where the ETP was intended for those who cannot get to school immediately due to deployments or they are in 1 of 5 CMFs that are severely impacted for ALC and SLC, and at the discretion of the commander, the ETPs are going out across the board; everyone offered is given the ETP. Even new SGTs who are not deployed, will not deploy in the next 4 years, and have the option of 15 different BLC start dates in the next 6 months.
And I can't help but think, if a Soldier can't be bothered to make the effort to get to the 3 week school required for the rank in a timely manner, how much effort is he going to put into those additional leadership responsibilities every month for the rest of his NCO career?

Response by 1SG John Millan made Jan 27 at 2024 1:22 PM

1SG John Millan — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 13:22:15 -0500

Abolish specialist, make all e-4 slotted NCO positions.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2024 6:25 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:25:17 -0500

Reporting Seniors were "supposed" to make a comment on the old fitness report in my days. "SNM has/has not completed PME for current grade", or similar.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2024 9:37 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:37:52 -0500

Just like it used to be. Old dogs want to go back to the way things were. This is a start. COVID messed up a lot of things. School houses can longer accommodate everyone so it's just as well. Temporary solution kicked a problem down the road and over filled the pipeline. Not knowing how an organization accomplishes a task, at the local level, is a very large problem.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2024 7:26 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Feb 2024 19:26:28 -0500

As a victim of a temporary promotion to SGT without BLC because of a combat deployment, I would not recommend it. The headache of trying to un-screw the issues I am now facing with an RCP separation are too much.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made May 5 at 2024 10:19 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Sun, 05 May 2024 10:19:55 -0400

I guess you are talking about blood stripes. Why would they be temporary? I can imagine the motivation of a soldier who makes NCO, only to be told this is only until you get back to the world or a replacement gets here.