The end of the debate; Combat Veteran v. non-combat Veteran.

2015-02-13T08:35:11-05:00

For awhile now, we have seen discussion after discussion debating the whole combat Veteran v. non-combat Veteran question. I have been very vocal in my stance that it really doesn't matter and to drive a wedge into our very own population only hurts the public's view of the military and what we do.

While thinking about this topic and trying to get into words a good post for this site, I came across an article written and posted on one of my favorite blogs; Task and Purpose. After reading the article several times, I feel the author captured exactly what I been thinking. As the author points out, a majority of people think that a "combat Veteran" is one that served and was within range of small arms fire. For those of that served in support of operations in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, we are all to familiar with the enemy's tactics of not engaging us in a fight where they are easily seen. Sure, we did some street to street fighting where you could point and say "There's one." But the majority of us fought unseen enemies. IEDs, indirect fire, dead animals rigged with H.E. rounds became the new face of the enemy.

So why do we keep driving a wedge between ourselves? We all, at one time in, stood up, raised our right hands, repeated the same oath and signed a blank check made out to our nation.

The Dangerous Perception That Is Hurting The Veterans Community

Creating false standards around what should be considered honorable military service hurts veterans and our public image.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Feb 13 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-02-13T09:08:58-05:00

There is a difference between 'PRIDE' in your service & overvaluing it. The same, in opposite, can be said for others service. The bottom line is: ALL service has value & while you can't equate 'apples and oranges' in regard to the type of service, you can accept that each service member accorded an honorable discharge did the best they could and deserve acceptance for that effort.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-02-13T09:15:58-05:00

Excellent article, SGT Ben Keen. I agree with the retired LTC's thesis. As the author says, if we parse it down too far, some "combat veterans" will lose the combat designation. Not taking anything away from those who actually fought, but everyone's service is valuable.

I didn't get into the earlier discussions of combat vs. non-combat veterans. Thanks for sharing this take on the topic, which should - as you say - end the debate.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 13 at 2015 10:24 AM

2015-02-13T10:24:01-05:00

The article is well written and spot on regarding this topic. I just wish others read and comprehend the message being parlayed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 10:52 AM

2015-02-13T10:52:20-05:00

Totally ridiculous. We are ALL veterans regardless of the amount of time in service. I may be a retiree but SPC Joe Snuffy who served only 4 years also did serve.

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Feb 13 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-02-13T11:02:51-05:00

Every single person serving in the military and retires or leas the military with an HONORABLE DISCHARGE has served HORABLY. It doesn't matter if the were in a Bradley or on a desk. Every soldier serves a purpose in war. Those who served in combat operations better thank those sitting in Washington or another CONUS Post for the bullets, uniforms, fuel and all the equipment they used in combat for without those behind the desk they would be throwing rocks at the enemy. During my time in the Dismounted Battlespace Battle Lab, I insured that soldiers had the best equipment to engage the enemy with. I was the "Own The Night" Project Officer. I see my fruits of my labor on soldiers today, PVS-7B, Flip Up helmet mounts, Laser Aiming Lights and a lot more. We in the Battle Lab did a rapid procurement to get these pieces of equipment in the hands of soldiers to increase lethality and survivability. So my work palyed a big part of the success in combat operations. Was I there to use them, no but did I impact the battlefield , Yes. Was my work Honorable. I say so. You can not fight a war on foreign soil without those in the rear or in CONUS making sure the military units and soldiers are equipped for success. One can ot be successful without the other.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 13 at 2015 11:06 AM

2015-02-13T11:06:16-05:00

False division.

As I mentioned in another thread, you don't get to choose where Uncle Sam sends you. You don't get to choose when war breaks out. You do however get to volunteer to serve this Nation. That is what makes you a Veteran. Nothing else.

Everything else is merely a "classification" used by various organizations like the VA, or the VFW to know what "bucket" to put you into.

My parents were Vets of the Vietnam & Cold War Era. I'm a Vet of the Gulf War Era. Since I placed 1 foot in a "combat zone" (during a cease fire) during an applicable period, I happen to have the "Combat Veteran" tag. Since I draw Disability from the VA, I'm a Disabled Vet. If it was over 30%, I'd be a "Special Disabled Vet."

Like I said, Classifications & Buckets. I could have just as easily said Round & Orange. They're just adjectives used to describe a noun. The Noun is the important thing, and that noun is Veteran. The important piece of this being a Veteran.

We're getting too wrapped up in descriptive adjectives that we're distracting from the important nouns.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-02-13T11:14:33-05:00

Active duty it can be an issue, or at least it was for me, to a limited extent. Once discharged you are a Retiree/Veteran and are all the same. Anything more is just a male reproductive organ measuring contest.

While on active duty, deployments and combat deployments did come into scrutiny for me when considering assignments, promotions, boards and the like. How could you be an E6, E7 or E8 in 2011 or after and never been deployed? I know there are exceptions to the rule, and I did consider everything on an one-on-one basis, but the flag still went up in the beginning.

I see it in the same light as tab checkers or ring knockers - it is just another 'group' mentality that if you don't belong, you are an outsider. If there are people out there like that, I don't want to be part of their group anyway.

Response by CSM Michael Lynch made Feb 13 at 2015 11:24 AM

2015-02-13T11:24:39-05:00

Great comments by all and I agree with all of them. We all served honorably and that is all that should matter.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-02-13T15:16:52-05:00

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/joni-ernst-says-she-earned-the-right-to-call-herself-a-combat-veteran-despite-never-seeing-combat/

The problem with people, including veterans, is that sometimes we can't separate logic from emotion. Check out the comments in the article I've linked to. SEN/LTC Joni Ernst is now on the national stage, which sets her up for intense scrutiny. Forget that she moved material, her company traveling almost 300,000 miles and accomplishing around 400 missions, through southern Iraq during the initial push into that country. She didn't engage in combat, they say- so that means she's lying about her service as a 'combat' veteran. Does that mean that bullets weren't flying? No, it just means that her job wasn't to stop and engage the enemy.

Joni Ernst says she earned the right to call herself a ‘combat veteran’ despite never seeing...

The newly elected Republican lawmaker defended her military service record after a Huffington Post article pointed out that she never came under fire while serving in Iraq and Kuwait more than a decade ago, reported the Omaha World-Herald.

Response by LTC Chad Storlie made Feb 13 at 2015 4:12 PM

2015-02-13T16:12:56-05:00

Great discussion here. I'm glad everyone enjoyed this article. CSM Michael Lynch - Thanks for posting!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-02-13T17:17:08-05:00

Thank you CSM Michael Lynch for an insightful argument. I agree that it does create a negative environment in some ways, but there are still two sides to this as well.

First the negative. Obviously there is the sense of hierarchy that divides us. Stateside people feel they should have deployed, deployed Soldiers in more stable areas feel they should have been more "in the suck", Soldiers in the suck have friends wounded and feel guilty that they weren't. Soldiers wounded think of their fallen and have survivors guilt. As the saying goes, "Only the dead have seen the end of war."

Then the positives. Recognition of the differences in experiences can validate the lack of full comprehension of a Soldier/SMs experiences. I do not know 100% of what it is to look at another human as a trigger is depressed. To think that I could understand the moral challenges and that can be damaging to us as a community as well. It doesn't make my sacrifices less, but it is a necessary demarcation. Additionally, our Soldiers need a sense of pride in what they do. To a degree, the bravado that comes from a combat unit is a necessary aspect of it. Our troops should think that they ARE the best, as long as they work as a team. This is the kind of things that will lead to our Soldiers being able to accomplish the "impossible", because they will believe they are with the best rather than saying "If only ____ were here." That kind of esprit de corps is critical to the success of a mission, and is hard to switch on/off.

Additionally, what other job does ANYONE say, "I would like to go where I can get shot at, blown up, wounded, killed....but I'm doing it because I love my Brothers and Sisters." That dedication to want to do more, to eliminate your own self-preservation instincts to rush out and save someone on the field, to throw yourself on a grenade. It is because of these people that we have the freedoms....and while nobody should feel belittled, it is a noble feeling to WANT to give more rather than be contented.

Just a combination point/counterpoint that I've thought of over the last few months.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by CW2 Eric Kline made Mar 2 at 2015 8:29 AM

2015-03-02T08:29:06-05:00

Veterans all - everyone who serves makes the military stronger. we are fortunate that while all of us were trained to fight, the majority of us are the what give the trigger-pullers the precision when needed.

Response by SFC Eric Hendrickson made Mar 2 at 2015 11:23 PM

2015-03-02T23:23:33-05:00

There are groups, who separate combat vets from non-combat vets and deny them full member rights. I am thinking long and hard about that myself..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 12:01 PM

2015-03-12T12:01:55-04:00

It doesn't matter to me whether combat or non-combat. The military assigns us what our MOS is and where we are going. Nothing can be done about that and it doesn't matter. Like me, I was Airborne Infantry but was assigned to the First Cav. I don't know why I wasn't assigned to the 101st or the 82nd but it didn't matter to me. There has to be rear echelon, not in combat, to keep the records and payroll. All I can say is thank you everyone who served in whatever capacity. A buddy of mine was drafted the same time I was. We took basic at Ft. Polk. I went to Vietnam. He stayed at Ft.Polk the entire time he was in. It's a toss of a coin what you do in the military.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Mar 12 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-03-12T16:31:18-04:00

I'm retired now, but have jumped knee deep in the a$$ of the combat/non-combat discussions when I still had the stripes. NEVER tear someone else down to build yourself up. What part of leadership would that fall under? One team, one fight.

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Mar 30 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-03-30T08:53:58-04:00

At the end of your life, will it really matter? I never heard of anyone dying saying: at least I got my CIB *death rattle*

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 19 at 2015 6:58 PM

2015-04-19T18:58:29-04:00

Life is ironic as the Military personnel and veterans can be our worst critics. If people feel superior for seeing combat, then they are too dense to understand how the military works or have an inflated notion of themselves.

Response by CPT Bob Moore made Apr 24 at 2015 9:04 AM

2015-04-24T09:04:46-04:00

This has been a discussion for a long time. This is my take on it:

If someone served in an area where they have a reasonable chance of experiencing hostile fire, they are considered combat vets. That could include England in WW II during the battle of Britain, I realize, but that danger is just as real and those that were on the main European continent.

As far as Iraq\Afghanistan, I think anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan are considered combat vets. Those in Kuwait and some of the other support areas, not so much. I don't think being involved in a fire fight should be a requirement.

To require someone to be involved in the "Action" minimizes the risk and the contribution of all the others that served in country.

On the flip side, those that served in country and never left the FOB need to be honest about that, as well. They shouldn't be telling war stories about fire fights.

Everyone contributes and should be proud of what they have done without embellishing anything. But everyone in country in Iraq and Afghanistan is a combat vet to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-04-24T09:10:50-04:00

I see both sides to this, those who served in HQ elements and didn't leave the wire while campaign veterans I wouldn't say are necessarily combat vets... While not taking anything away from their contributions those that left the wire and were exposed to hostile fire is a totally different category

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 24 at 2015 9:29 AM

2015-04-24T09:29:10-04:00

Take a cold hard look at the requirements for a CIB or CMB. Getting shot at is not enough. Getting wounded is not enough. You have to be in the job of hunting and getting hunted. Every day. Day in, day out. Even Sundays.

People that claim "Combat Veteran" status that don't fit that description are diminishing the actions of those that did.

Isn't just being a veteran good enough anymore? Do we have to engage in stolen valor?

Response by Cpl Andrew Tucker made Apr 24 at 2015 9:39 AM

2015-04-24T09:39:20-04:00

Pure and simple- if you received a combat device or ribbon, you are a combat Vet. If you were in theater but did not receive one of those identifying uniform marks, you are a veteran. If you never left the states, you are a PSM. There should be no debate about this. This is only brought about by those who feel for some stupid reason that because they didn't get to shoot at someone that their service is somehow "neglected" or "not up to snuff".

Let me explain something real quick. Be very lucky you never had to make the decision to end someone's life. While everytime I pulled my trigger, it was a quick reaction. For most of us normal people who did pull our triggers, it is a thing we have to live with every day. You don't want this in your head.

You served. Be proud of that. Don't try to claim that which you are not, we have enough nut bags who try to say they were a Special Forces Recon Delta Sniper SEAL anyways. Be proud of your service. My father Col Private RallyPoint Member is proudly retiring from 30 years in the AF this summer and never had to see combat, which I am so happy for. One messed up guy in the family is enough lol.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 24 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-04-24T15:08:55-04:00

I was in Aviation and Armor in my career but not in war time. I will not apologize for this. I will not denigrate those who served.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 24 at 2015 5:34 PM

2015-04-24T17:34:58-04:00

Did you wear the uniform of the Armed Forces of the United States? Yes? Ok then. You are my brother or sister in arms and that's all that really matters to me.

I don't care whether you were "down in the mud and muck" or not. I know several extraordinary members who never got the call to go downrange. I don't respect them less because they've never been to a combat zone.

The fact you raised your right hand, swore an oath to defend the Constitution, and served your Country honorably, in my eyes makes you more deserving of respect than the 95% of the current population who have never done a single thing to deserve the blanket of freedom Veterans have provided.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 7:55 PM

2015-04-24T19:55:48-04:00

You also have to consider dangers of the job while in the military. Flightdeck of a carrier, flightlines, ships engineering, patrols in Iraq/Afganistan are the most dangerous places to work or be involved with while in service, regardless of branch of service. And these dangers don`t directly involve combat between forces conventionally with both sides shooting back at each other either. There`s definitely more dangerous tasks while serving, even miscommunication has gotten people killed.

About a decade ago, I`d hear about colleges, some in Texas would offer free tuition for combat vets. But since I don`t live there, I never bothered to look up the requirements to be a combat vet. I could come up with a few things: (besides being in direct combat),

Flightdeck of a carrier providing air support in the gulf, we are talking 12-20 hour shifts in the sun upwards 120+ heat and high humidity due to being surrounded by the ocean, including the other dangers associated with being up top, this includes flightlines regardless of location because working on aircraft with engines turning is a very dangerous job.

Being on a FOB in either Iraq or Afganistan, they tended to receive IDF often, (shipmate of mine was hit by a mortor shockwave sending him thru a wall, he survived that, but not the soldier that was closer)

Ships engineering includes maintenance in very tight spaces working on pipes or around that contains steam 100+, could kill everyone in that ships compartment or just the person next to it if it ruptures.

Patrols thru Afganistan or Iraq may not have involved direct combat for the unit, but IED`s they had to notice or avoid or be hit by is still a danger.

Many of the above dangers are most of the most dangerous places I have worked in or hear about, and doesn`t involved direct combat, so are the people who faced those situations not combat vets even though their lives are on the line more so then others in better situations? Given I never faced combat, the most dangerous place I have worked was on the flightdeck of the USS Kittyhawk, and I`m a Aviation Electricians Mate, working on electrical equipment on aircraft, with live electricity and turning engines in the past. I`m probably not what those colleges call a combat vet, don`t care either. Also did a deployment to LSA, Kuwait for Navy Customs, but besides being stuck on the post most of the deployment,wouldn`t call it a dangerous place. Besides the one time a forklift driver that was a TCN ignored the director and backed up in the spot I was once standing in... turned around to see a wheel taller then me coming at me a foot away and instinct said jump here, the driver also almost backed into the box of gear I was going thru. This was at Camp Beuhring, and also a day prior at the same post, humvee drove over 2 soldiers, killing them. Though I don`t know much more then that.

But I have done work in very dangerous situations, been shocked while doing my job, seen an AO get on top of an aircraft during high winds and get blown off into the ocean, jet blast deflector failed while aircraft was launching, sending someone offdeck, aircraft did a low powered turn while turning, and someone was sent into a prowler intake headfirst with cranial on, I slept below cat 3, which had a major fire, would either pull someone back or be pulled back if we were about to walk into something dangerous, worked night check mostly and would nearly walk into sharp objects at times up top due to very very low to no lights, had a wave come up and take the ships anti airgun/anti missile(SWSS) with it and another wave move a helo couple of feet and any life rafts hit by them, ARS pod on an f-18 Superhornet was cut while the line was inside, but the cutoff parts did not fly off, meaning part of it was outside the ARS pod hanging on and leaking fuel and possible debris upon impact from landing(this scared the shit out of me because I worked in the ARS shop and was the on duty ARS person up top). And no one died in any of those situations.

Though while there are those who can do 20 in, and not be deployed overseas or face dangerous work, those are more rarer cases that requires that service member to be going for. To me I don`t really see a difference between combat vet and non combat. Service members had to put their life on the line or had their life in someones elses hands, this is not a safe job by a long shot. That any argument is more between inter service members on who did more for fun, but not for civilians to have a say.

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made Apr 24 at 2015 11:53 PM

2015-04-24T23:53:02-04:00

I treat all vets the same.. Those that support the base are just as important as those at the sharp end of the stick.

As are their significant others. Any spouse that hangs in there for twenty years getting dragged from place to place raising the kids and cringing at every knock at the door hoping not to see a Chaplin and officer at the door while their mate is deployed has my undying respect.

That being said, I do think there is much more wear and tear on the body and soul of those who regularly in contact and must take life and risk life in ground combat as a part of their job and not because once they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For them, it really is life and death every day and it gets harder every year and deployment and I do not think many who have not done it understand just how hard it can be...

I honestly have come to believe the volunteer army is a failure.

Not by the soldier and officers , but a failure of the nation.

We are in year 13 of this forever war. World War Two last 4 years and we nuked a country twice to end it quicker and save the lives of American combat troops.

The difference was the draft. I suspect if we had a draft now the war would end very quickly...

I bring this up to point out there is already an enormous wedge between those who serve and those who do not and we are the worse for it...

We as a nation stood up, and we all went to war and we got it done with all the means at our disposal.

Now we have no draft, rules of engagement and 13 year wars...

The problem is not a wedge between us, the problem is a wedge between us and the rest of the country...

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 27 at 2015 10:29 AM

2015-04-27T10:29:43-04:00

Peace will come again and the combat patch will be a rare thing to see; but the NCO core will have learned from those who wore it and the skill sets will be passed on to the next generation. Those who wear a combat patch now may have learned from some one who never wore one. This is the way of things.

Response by SGT David T. made May 29 at 2015 8:11 PM

2015-05-29T20:11:11-04:00

Service is service no matter for how long or how one does it. There is no greater privilege than serving this nation in my opinion and serving takes all types military and civilian. Combat vet and read d to make it all work.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 8:22 PM

2015-05-29T20:22:10-04:00

As long as no one pretends to something they never did, service is service. As servicemembers we train for something we hope never happens, but we all signed up and if it did happen while we served, we went. It's basically roulette.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 29 at 2015 8:24 PM

2015-05-29T20:24:21-04:00

This pops up all the time.

You choose to swear the oath. You don't choose where Uncle Sam sends you, or whether you will actually be put in harms way, what the era you serve will be classified as. Someone joining today has a high likelihood of "Peace Breaking Out" just as someone joining in 2000 had "War Break Out."

Let's not divide ourselves.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 29 at 2015 9:28 PM

2015-05-29T21:28:43-04:00

It's actually the "no combat, no service" attitude that promotes stolen valor. I personally believe that if you served honorably as a cook your service is as revered to me as a Navy Seal. The military functions as a total unit that is the sum of all its parts. Remove the success of even a handful of those parts and it just can't be successful. If you dispute this give me a field that could be eliminated and the military still achieve its objective sucessfully.

Response by SSG Mark Ives made May 29 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-05-29T22:46:55-04:00

When I was in Pershing missiles, if we'd seen combat, the world would be a much crappier world, if it existed today. We were a deterrent to the Warsaw Pact and a possible WW III. I was in Berlin during the Gulf War, monitoring the Soviet withdrawal from a reunified Germany. So in that I didn't serve in combat in any of my duties, I am proud of my service & proud of those other Cold War vets.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 18 at 2015 11:24 PM

2015-08-18T23:24:57-04:00

Someone who was there when the shooting was active

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 18 at 2015 11:25 PM

2015-08-18T23:25:57-04:00

Yes in the eyes of those who care. But the press doesn't.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 18 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-08-18T23:26:57-04:00

Well, I was on a Navy ship in the Gulf during Gulf War 1. I got to watch a mine getting shot by a sweeper. Does that make me a combat vet? *Shrugs* I don't know. I was there, ready to answer the call if it came. It just didn't for us.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:27 PM

2015-08-18T23:27:53-04:00

If I'm not mistaken the VA differentiates.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Aug 18 at 2015 11:48 PM

2015-08-18T23:48:08-04:00

I am a combat Vet.Marine-Vietnam 1969--shot at--mortared --rockets--Chicom grenades --picked up pieces of friends and enemies alike.Does that help to clarify?

Response by CCMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-08-18T23:52:02-04:00

Does 35k feet dropping bombs count? Or is there an altitude limit? Below 1500' AGL? Bombers? What about being in Riyadh when the Scuds are being lofted to random locations?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:53 PM

2015-08-18T23:53:15-04:00

In our Era we know that many claim to be a part of the military while they never wore. This happens inside the military also. Being a Combat Veteran is a mark of distinction for me. I don't take it lightly. I am discouraged to found some use this moniker as a means to seems more than what they were or just straight lie to obtain some sort of elevated status among their peers. Does it happen. Yes, I have seen it.

The worst claims I have seen is the SF guys that were "SF" when they were only there to drive a truck for them. This goes in part to those that think that Combat Veterans are the epitome of service. It is not. You could serve in the military honorable without going to combat. I don't see an issue with that at all. But some how we have discouraged those that didn't go. I think the Army is trying to address this by taking away the combat points in their promotion system. Having them does seem to elevate those that have been deployed. Not everyone's job in combat related. If you are a Cyber Guy there is a good chance you aren't going to Afghan. Should we hold it against him if someone reclassed from another MOS and has a tour in? No. In that job I don't think it really matters. There is some value in it where combat is your job. But others I don't see the need to push others above their peers for only having been deployed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:54 PM

2015-08-18T23:54:33-04:00

War is the sweetest thing that you ever encountered. The sweet smell of carbon. The angry fire of ammo screaming in your ear. The urge to run towards death! I yearn for the feeling of eternal youth at the hands of a warriors death! War will change you! What makes it bad is all up to you. My friends are there and I will join them. Your ancestors were there and they understand that life is only but a drop in the bucket. You can impact humanity or the people around you to impact the world!

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Aug 19 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-08-19T00:09:29-04:00

In the end, it comes down to a couple things. The pain of actual combat, whether physical or emotional is indisputable.

For others, were they in a supporting role? If so, where? Does being an admin type at Bagram qualify? How about Bahrain? Or maybe a Navy ship in the Mediterranean that shot Tomahawks...

One of the biggest distinctions for those not actually on the front lines is benefits. If you were in the Gulf War Syndrome AOR or the Agent Orange AORs, by the VA's reckoning, you're a combat vet.

If you served during one of those eras, you may qualify for benefits such as era specific GI bills.

In my business (rabbi), this is called being rewarded for showing up (there is a Hebrew term for this in Jewish law...) Lots of folks volunteered to serve but didn't get deployed into actual combat. Is that their fault or just bad luck? If they showed up during the war, they deserve credit for that, even if they never got sent downrange, through no fault of their own. As much reward as a front line person who saw combat, or for instance a logistics train operator who hit an IED? Of course not, but remember, they did answer the call too...

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 19 at 2015 7:00 AM

2015-08-19T07:00:15-04:00

Engaging the enemy or directly supporting those that do.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2015 7:10 AM

2015-08-19T07:10:31-04:00

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Aug 19 at 2015 7:13 AM

2015-08-19T07:13:26-04:00

"Combat Vet" That is someone who did his or her job while someone else tried to kill him or her. Actually tried. Not just the potential of someone trying. Incoming small arms fire, indirect fire, improvised explosive devices etc.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 19 at 2015 7:27 AM

2015-08-19T07:27:43-04:00

There is a Legal Definition for Combat vet, which is established by the VA, and there is the Subjective Definition of Combat vet established by various subsets of the community.

The Legal definition is actually VERY straight forward. if you step one foot in a "war zone" you are a Combat Vet. The entire Middle East has been a war zone since the 1990s. That's all it takes. Yes, I know it sounds crazy, but it goes with the old saying "everyone has a bullet with their name on it, but artillery is addressed to Homeowner."

Now as for the Subjective definition, I've heard everything from must have a CIB/SMB/CAB/CAR to "if you aren't Infantry, it doesn't count" (yes, I've heard that). But the problem with Subjective definitions is that they are open to interpretation, whereas the VAs definition is not. Yes, it's overly simple, and VERY broad, but it's Objective.

But... The VA does this merely as a classification tool. That's all. It's to set priorities for care. Depending on what "caveat" of Veteran you are, you are higher on the food chain. Combat Vets are one class. Purple Heart Recipients are another. "Era" vets (and there are several Eras) are another. The list goes on and on. All this is for is to make the 6~M vets into "bite size chunks" so that they can coordinate care better. Theoretically Gulf War vets are going to have a different set of issues than Vietnam Vets, one because of location, and two because of age.

So my personal take is don't get wrapped up in an "administrative" tag. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You served. You're a vet. And as things have shown, none of us are "safe" regardless of where we serve, even if it's on recruiting duty stateside.

Response by SGT William Howell made Aug 19 at 2015 8:00 AM

2015-08-19T08:00:28-04:00

I just responded to another post from a couple of guys that, one "Took small arms fire" and another that might have been hit with scud that was never launched, both in Kuwait. Both said the were combat vets. In response, I posted a a picture I took of the blood left in the 1025 of one of my solders that actually took small arms fire so that they could see what combat really is.

We all want to have a sense of self worth and that we did our part to defend our country. I guess if you can justify the patch on your right arm however you see fit and you can live with it, then to each there own.

As for the Navy and Air Force, they have a whole other criteria as to what makes them a combat vets. Loading bombs in Kuwait or off the coast of Iraq that 3 hours later are going to be dropped on somebody trying to kill me counts. No questions asked.

Response by SSG Ricardo Marcial made Aug 19 at 2015 10:11 AM

2015-08-19T10:11:20-04:00

I have given up on that whole issue, having witness senior nco's fly into an outpost, just to take mortar fire, fly out the next day and then have their admin soldiers reject combat awards repeatedly while their "combat awards" get the stamp of approval in one shot. I did my part, my friend did their part, some of us came back, some did not. I don't go out of my way to try to figure out when someone makes a comment about how "i did this or was part of this unit when...blah blah blah". It does not matter to me, those that served and experienced the horrors of war know who they are, we see them at the VA struggling to get help, we see them in the street because their support system has failed them, we see them in our sleep, and we see them once a year....on the day they fell, either in combat or the day they lost the fight at home. I have no love for Fobbits, glory hounds, badge hunter, whatever, all that was asked was that you do your job and support those that were out in the field doing what you craved for. You have no idea and maybe you were lucky not to get exactly what you asked for. I thank my brothers and sisters for doing their part, but I don't dwell on the little things.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 19 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-08-19T10:25:00-04:00

There is no doubt to the true "combat" vet what this designation is. IMO, they should be at the top of any VA benefit prioritization. I do disagree with the feeling that you should not use the term "era", it indicates many things to us. With me, it indicated that I know what was happening and supported/support those warriors, when many did not. Also, bear in mind lives are lost by those that do not carry a rifle and their dependents feel the same way about the loss.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Aug 19 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-08-19T11:23:22-04:00

Maybe it's a big deal to some, not me. I see it pragmatically. I am currently a Reservist. I was an active duty infantryman from '09-'12. I never saw combat whether active or in the reserves. I am a veteran. I am not a veteran of combat. It is what it is, and I'm fine with it.

Response by SFC Walt Littleton made Aug 19 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-08-19T20:16:00-04:00

Great question to ponder! I just skip over the 20 year mark starting with the end of Vietnam and ending with the Middle East Conflicts retiring in 1995. I joined bc I wanted to do my part in the effort since my father was retired Army. Lived it all my life. My initial plan was to be a door gunner on a Huey. Anyway I ended up in the Signal Corps in a more civilian job than a combat job. My school was almost a year long so I missed Vietnam. I got promoted very fast but I still had the need to be in the real Army. After 3 years in Japan, my first duty assignment where I worked for the Defense Communication Agency working 8-5, no PT, no formations, no weapons or equipment. I called branch and asked for a new assignment. I got it!

I was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. I was stationed in a forward support maintenance company (801st). I was a SPC5 and my 1SG pulled off my stripes and sent me to the supply sergeant for Buck Sergeant stripes. We don't have SPC here and now you are a sergeant. My sergeant sponsor who helped me get through the culture shock asked me is I had my TA-50. My response was "What form is this". Not a form it's your field gear and my next question was "What does going to the field mean". My chain of command was the best of the best at training me to be a leader and didn't let me slide on anything. Did Air Assault School before it was even a school. It was a 2 week long course every NCO assigned to the 101st was required to attend. We even had 3 more areas than they do today. I was never given the opportunity to return and get my wings. I display the wings on my truck but never on my uniform. My son followed and has his wings as my other son wears his paratrooper wings. Anyway I spent 3 years readiness deplorable ever 90 days and flew out many times not knowing if it was real. I always knew deep down that I and my team were as good as we could be and prayed we come home. Came close many times but never the combat patch.

Was sent to Korea now I'm back to electronics, yup got stationed to the Army Broadcast Service (AFKN) and NCOIC of all TV, Radio stations throughout the northern area of Korea.

I volunteered to return to the 101st and they sent me back however this time to the Combat Engineers. Assigned as the Communications Chief and deployable again. Never got combat patch.

Assigned right back to Korea back to fixed station communications. No combat patch.

Assigned to the Signal School as an AIT Platoon Sergeant and of course no patch.

Then to Germany working for the National Command Authority Cemetary Communications network as Station Commander. I volunteered for Desert Storm over and over for all conflicts leading up to the Middle East.

Finally 18 years as an E-7 and was sent as an advisor to Samolia and I GOT MY PATCH WITH THE 10th Mountain even though I was 5th Sig out of Europe.

A lot of conflicts in my 20 years around the world. I trained every day was ready and never knew when or if I would go and actually fight. I was disappointed that I didn't feel I had done my part and no bragging rights.

Well you know I didn't get my wings, didn't really get into combat but did fire my weapon in a hostile environment but I did my little part of the big machine by doing my job. So the first day I joined the Army I was a Veitnam Vet. I thank God every day that I didn't have to go into combat but I spent all those years not knowing and preparing for it.

Response by CPT Russell Pitre made Aug 20 at 2015 1:49 AM

2015-08-20T01:49:21-04:00

Not trying to picky but is this really the end of the debate?

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Aug 20 at 2015 8:22 AM

2015-08-20T08:22:09-04:00

Isn't this basically just another article in the Huffington Post that tried to disparage a veteran who is also a Republican member of congress. ???

Response by COL Charles Williams made Aug 20 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-08-20T23:18:37-04:00

CPT Russell Pitre It is all a matter of perspective. There are parts of me that agree, and understand your perspective. There are parts of me that do not. From my time in the military, I believe those who have done the most, talk the least. And, (I also believe) I have met some (many) folks who talk a lot about their exploits, but they didn't really do anything hard or dangerous. At the same time, I value all service, and all of it matters. The article posted by SGT Ben Keen was very good and summed this up well.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Aug 20 at 2015 11:20 PM

2015-08-20T23:20:27-04:00

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 20 at 2015 11:27 PM

2015-08-20T23:27:07-04:00

SGT Ben Keen IMO true Combat Vets should be treated better due to what they went through.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 2:41 AM

2015-08-21T02:41:56-04:00

Great topic...... I , served in the USAF 11/63 to 11/ 67. The question of combat vet versus non-combat is easy. Did you shoot at them and/or did they shoot at you? I was a munitions specialist and did what us "BB Stacker's" do in support of the F-105's out of Kadena AB, Okinawa. This was actually before the start date of the Viet Nam war. My unit (18th TAC FTR WNG) was flying combat missions into Laos and Cambodia (Official statement...no we weren't). After 4 yrs. in the AF, with 18 months over seas, the only ribbons I received upon discharge from the AF, were the AF Longevity ribbon (4 yrs.), outstanding Unit Citation (2), Expert Marksmen ribbon, and NDS Ribbon (notice the absences' of the Good conduct ribbon. Unfortunate, but a hell of a party). I Did not even receive the AF Long Tour Overseas ribbon.

Years later, I found out that Four months after I returned OCONUS, my unit was awarded the Viet Nam Service Medal (I guess due to the start date of the war). I have received Hazardous duty Pay, and Hostile Pay (Oman, Gulf War), but that doesn't count. When I retired, I wanted a Military Retiree plate for my car. They asked which war were you in and I said I guess I'd say VN, because that was the first. But that particular plate has the VN Service ribbon printed on it. So I refused it because I could not honestly display it. So my plate just says "Retired US Veteran". It was 1964/65. Okinawa was the last stop before VN. I Built, Stored, Transported and some times helped load stuff that goes "Bang" on Combat fighter/bomber Aircraft. I mixed Napalm, which required an MP escort back to the barracks so I wouldn't lite up like a roman candle if some one lit a match next to me. What better qualifications at the time or for that matter, the need, was I not sent to VN?. I volunteered to go, but because we were short personnel, I stayed on the rock. Luck of the draw? That's my PTSD problem "Why not me"?.

So after 27 yrs. service (USAF and Army), I have never been shot at in anger, or seen the whites of the enemies eyes (unless you count that jealous husband..LOL). After all the Awards, Ribbons, and Commendations Letters, I have to consider my self a non-combat VN ERA veteran. I requested the daily reports for my unit to see if there was any info to qualify me for the VSM (under the freedom of information act) and they came back with so many "magic marker" line outs, they made no sense.

I don't even want to get started on Agent Orange. I was stationed at Eglin AFB, FL, where we tested all the strange stuff we dropped, sprayed, launched and experimented with to kill people . including Agent Orange, white, purple, and all the other crap a young troop doesn't question. But you had to be in VN to qualify for compensation (since changed for Reserve units that worked on retro C-123's in the states) The ammo dump I worked in has since been declared an off limits chemical hazard area. I would trade all the awards and glitter for one ribbon, the VSN. But that's not goanna happen in my life time.

I salute all you guys, Active, Reserve, Guard and veterans, of all branches, that are now serving or have served, in a "support role". In my case, as a USAF munitions guy, I'd say, " If it weren't for us, the US Air Force would be nothing but an unscheduled Airline". God bless you all. We all did our part..... PS: If your getting out, read your DD-214 very carefully and question any discrepancies. Once you sign it...it's official.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Aug 21 at 2015 4:53 AM

2015-08-21T04:53:16-04:00

According to the VA I'm a combat veteran. I've been deployed to combat zones and received hostile fire/imminent danger pay.

I fit the criteria for membership in the VFW and I am a member of Combat Vets Motorcycle Association. If those organizations say I'm a combat vet, then I'm a combat vet.

I always personally thought a combat vet would have a Combat Action Ribbon, but modern warfare, especially Naval warfare, can have many different definitions of "combat."

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Aug 21 at 2015 3:42 PM

2015-08-21T15:42:09-04:00

I get tired of this discussion. There is not a Veteran caste system. That is what medals are for, they distinguish your service from what others' service was. Stop drawing lines and making labels to validate your own sense of accomplishment. The person sitting behind a desk in Qatar serves just as important of a function as a person in the front lines, and they put their lives on the line the same way. Everyone does their part.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Aug 21 at 2015 3:44 PM

2015-08-21T15:44:41-04:00

Stop it, stop using a caste system to validate your own service. That is what medals are for. Be proud of how you served, but know that you are no more important or less important that anyone else who served. And if you think you are, then you are the problem, not them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-08-31T14:10:29-04:00

Thanks for posting! What a great article and it speaks volumes. If you have served and served honorably. You are a veteran combat or not and never forget you wrote that blank check to a nation.

Response by SN Trevor Sanchez made Dec 7 at 2015 1:32 AM

2015-12-07T01:32:06-05:00

I am a Veteran (non combat) and also a Patriot Guard Rider from Montana. We have chapters in every state and nearly all US Territories. Not once in all the flag lines and escorts I have done for fellow veterans that have passed on (some from combat, others from natural causes and old age) have I heard a single PGR member ever say he or she wouldn't stand the flag line or funeral escort because the Veteran was not in Combat at some point in his or her life. We have never asked a family if the decedent was a combat vet. Ever. I am so disgusted by these threads that I am going to probably delete my account with Rally Point. I am tired of my email blowing up because of stupid people thinking others are not Veterans because of not being in Combat. Not one single serviceman or woman had a choice as to whether they would go into combat. Not one. That choice was made for you at a much higher rank than the majority of us held. People could choose a field that likely would see action, but it was never guaranteed. It is a STUPID question when someone says someone else is not a Veteran because he/she wasn't in Combat. Just plain STUPID.

Response by 1SG David Niles made Feb 6 at 2016 2:14 PM

2016-02-06T14:14:57-05:00

My two cents, I went and served were my commanders sent me, I did not shirk my responsibilities and I did not dodge danger. Therefore I am just as good as any, but those that dodged deployment, slim led out of missions well there is a special place in Hades for them.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Jan 22 at 2017 5:01 PM

2017-01-22T17:01:03-05:00

How I missed this I don't know, but outstanding!

Response by PO3 Delancey Dutton made Jun 18 at 2017 8:23 AM

2017-06-18T08:23:16-04:00

When I took my oath as I entered the US Navy I knew that the Navy might send me someplace dangerous. I was instructed what to do if I got captured. I was shown how to shoot guns with the possible intent of offensive or defensive action. I also knew that I could be killed depending on where the Navy sent me. I took the oath anyway.

Just because I have not earned a Purple Heart, and no one in my shop got a Purple Heart, does not mean we were unwilling to fight. We served in 3 hot combat zones. While my job did not include shooting at people, at any time my ship could have been targeted by torpedoes, or missiles. We went to GQ 3 times in a day sitting off Grenada because of threats in the area. This was ALL BY HAPPENSTANCE! I could have scored a little better on a test and got to go to a cushy shore station like my buddy who spent his time in Iceland, not exactly a hot zone.

Some joined the Military for a job, some joined for the benefits, some joined for the glory. Most of us joined to serve this great country in a capacity that maximized our skills. Those that served for glory or tradition have my respect because you served. You start to lose respect when you try to bask in your own glory. or belittle other vets for not being as heroic as you. Hero is a title others give you. If you see a hero in the mirror you are in need of psychiatric help.

Response by PO1 Patrick Mann made Jun 18 at 2017 12:17 PM

2017-06-18T12:17:41-04:00

we are all members of the same team. the key word is team. The pointed end of the spear is not effective without the pole behind it The reach, weight, and force becomes less without everything behind the point.

Response by GySgt Marvin HernandezGarcia made Oct 30 at 2017 9:15 PM

2017-10-30T21:15:14-04:00

I didn't see the link from Task and Purpose so I could read up on it more or maybe I am just blind. Can you provide the link, please? Thank you.

Response by SSgt Mose Carter made Nov 24 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-11-24T13:06:20-05:00

Having served two tours in Vietnam I can truly say combat veterans are more cohesive. All veterans are special in my mind but,less face it, combat veterans are usually closer. That is my experience. I don't think this causes divisiveness between us.We're all in this together. Some desire not to go to a combat zone while others yarn to go. I volunteered for both of my tours in Vietnam. Some military assignments are combat prone whereas others are not. We're all serving our great nation and we deserve to be applauded especially when recruiters today have difficulty filling their quotas. MayGod bless all who have served and those that are currently serving.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Nov 24 at 2017 5:03 PM

2017-11-24T17:03:19-05:00

It's not driving a wedge, It is an accomplishment, like being Airborne. IEDs, Mortars, RPGs and what have you are combat. They were in a position to get killed very dead.

Response by SSG Dale London made Jan 25 at 2018 12:42 AM

2018-01-25T00:42:22-05:00

Dude, how does getting shot at make you a more valuable person? I served for 16 years - saw some interesting stuff and had my butt in a crack more than once. Whoopty do! IMHO if you served you're a vet. If you didn't, you're not. No distinctions. There's no glory in combat. Lots of poop and pee and vomit and blood but no glory. I kept looking for it and never found a smidgen.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jan 25 at 2018 1:22 PM

2018-01-25T13:22:10-05:00

Frankly having been both, I look at the service people who were in submarines behind the lines of some not so friendly countries, are they any less a veteran because they didn't torpedo some other vessel? Hardly. Is a Coastie any less a service person because they rescue people at sea? Just because you went ot Kuwait then to Iraq and spent a year in Talil does not make you any more veteran than the person who didn't.

Response by FN William Putegnat made Mar 8 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-03-08T22:47:13-05:00

U are so full of it. Combat see the action

Response by SGT Breck Wilson made Jul 14 at 2018 3:22 AM

2018-07-14T03:22:43-04:00

I agreed with what your saying mostly. But from experience I personally feel that there are differences in the way the two think and react on certain topics. And I understand that isn't necessarily all inclusive for one group or the other bit majority speaking. Just like different branches have different views.

Response by SP5 Edwin Golinski Lesperance made May 9 at 2019 10:31 PM

2019-05-09T22:31:40-04:00

FUGIT, it don't mean nuthin'.
You worried about a hat someone's wearing?
We all paid some price and didn't have much choice.
All Veterans, wartime or peacetime deserve to be honored, for you never know where you'll be tomorrow.

RE: VIETNAM:

VIETNAM ERA VETERAN - Everyone who served honorably in the military and served during the Vietnam Conflict, but not in Vietnam.
Everyone who served during that time was in one way or another supporting the troops in Vietnam. Thank you for your service.

VIETNAM VETERAN - Everyone who served honorably in the military and served in Vietnam, not necessarily in a combat role.
This service was in direct support of combat operations and deserves special thanks.
Welcome home.

VIETNAM COMBAT VETERAN - Any and all servicemembers in Vietnam that were directly engaging the enemy, to include attacking and being attacked.
This designation requires that you put your life at risk to repel or destroy enemy operations. This is a special designation.
It includes Infantry (11B), Combat Engineers (12B), Huey and Cobra pilots and crew, armor, forward artillery, field medics and likely some others I forgot.
Welcome home and thanks for your sacrifice.

I wear my hat, not with pride, but so fellow veterans will recognize me, and I look for their hats to welcome them home or thank them. I even found guys that served the same time and places I did!

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 1:11 PM

2021-03-20T13:11:09-04:00

This is a big beef I the military because while some of our fellow service members had the opportunity to avoid combat and go to non- life threatening orders to some cush locations who were able to have time to be with their family, work 0700-1600 everyday, sleeping comfortably, and have the time do what ever they want (like going to post-grad school and completing other important military education milestones), others have served multiple combat tours and a good chunk of those folks had to miss out in all all of the aforementioned items their non-combat vets had. And within the “combat veteran” community, only a fraction of those had been exposed to direct enemy fire, fired in return, and/or been wounded. On another note, I really hate that the general public calls all veterans heroes; they real heroes in our community are the ones who have saved another’s life in the course of their duties and the ones who gave it their all and are now in the next world. It’s like that scene in Patton in where Patton is talking to his troops in front of a giant flag talks about “What did you do during the war...”