The "New Army", bad or good?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 07:50:12 -0500

Are the changes over the past few years hurting or helping our Army? As we transition into a smaller and more technical force, the concern of our Soldiers being soft or weak has been a heavy discussion topic. From my standpoint the level of discipline has decreased over the past couple years, soldiers simply not caring and/or showing any respect to leaders and the leaders not doing anything about it. Granted I do not have but just a few years of service myself. What can we do to maintain a high level of discipline and professionalism within our ranks given the limitations? What changes should be made or revoked to better our Army?

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Jan 16 at 2014 3:03 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:03:51 -0500

SGT(P) Dutill - Enforcements of standards starts with you. You are the "boots on the ground" first line leader. Ensure that your Soldiers understand what you expect from them, counsel them, provide them guidance and mentorship and results will come.

Enforcing those said standards is easier when there is Command emphasis within your organization. I suggest that you sit down with your PSG and discuss your concerns with him. He should be able to provide you with advice and counsel.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Jan 16 at 2014 3:15 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:15:40 -0500

I've been hearing the same thing, except I started hearing it in '97.

The Army has room for **shole and relaxed NCOs. I actually think we do better with both.

NCOES completion does not establish seniority. AR 600-8-19 1-12:
"Among enlisted Soldiers of the same grade of rank in active military service..., precedence or relative rank will be determined as follows:
a. According to DOR.
b. By length of active federal service (AFS) in the Army when DORs are the same (pay entry basic date (PEBD) for USAR and ARNG).
c. By length of total AFS when paragraph a and b, above, are the same.
d. By date of birth when paragraph a, b, and c, above, are the same. Older is more senior."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 3:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:28:00 -0500

I agree with MSG Stankovich on this one.  It all starts with you.  Talk to your leadership, get their support.  I have been in relaxed SOF units and it was hard because my Soldiers would see SF guys walking around with long hair, ball caps, sleeves rolled up etc and they expected to be able to do the same.  I would tell them that if they wanted to do that then go to SFAS and that in my Detachment we adhere to the standards.  They might not like it, you might get hell from the other squad leaders and PSG's but you know what? You are doing the right thing and your Soldiers will respect you for it. 

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 3:32 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:32:51 -0500

SGT(P) Dutill- It doesn't take an ***hole NCO to enforce standards. It takes a confident leader who knows when to "break out the hammer" and when not too. Soldiers want that leader that stands out as "what the Army is suppose to look like". To often they are surrounded by the wrong answer. So they think the wrong answer is actually the right answer because thats what their leadership has shown them. Just keep doing the right thing make on the spot corrections and enforce the standards amongst the ranks and you are doing your job. It is the "Be, Know, Do". I hear NCO's all talking about how the old Army was better, guess what it's always going to be said. Adapt and overcome.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 12:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 00:22:12 -0500

As a lower enlisted, I was fortunate, to have 3 old school NCO`s mentor me, since then I`ve wanted to become an NCO and emulate the lessons and leadership I learned. unfortunately I have had and been around too many NCO`s that do no uphold standards like my old ones did, but my point is SGT that even though I`ve been around and under lesser leadership it was the leaders that did the right thing and set a good example for me that made me want to aspire to be like them. So, SGT take charge lead from the front and your soldiers will follow.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2014 8:40 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Feb 2014 08:40:43 -0500

A popular topic on here to be sure, to awnser your questions in my opinion;

Are the changes over the past few years hurting or helping our Army?

Depends, overall i don't feel that the Army is really lacking when it comes to fighting and winning the nations wars. Sure, disclipline has waned in recent years but you have to try and understand why. Most of us "young" guys came into service when standards were "relaxed" so increase the overall force size to meet the needs of the operation environment. So when it comes to disclipline being synonymus with looking good in uniforms most of us dont believe that at all. My thoughts about disclipline come from pride in ones mission, unit, and love of service to the country. If someone were to tell me that im not discliplined because i dont particularly care about shiny boots or starched creases in uniforms i would be inclined to dissagree and inform them that if they were to see me on the war front they would have no doubts about what i am capable of.

What can we do to maintain a high level of discipline and professionalism within our ranks given the limitations?

Another good question with two answers;

From what i've seen in my service is the the pre 9/11 Army was an incredibly rigid and not particulary forward thinking fighting force. Not to say that was a bad thing but, when i fist came in e-5 and below were, for lack of a better word, drones. they were told was to do and would do it without really thinking about the process. One change, hold on im getting to my point, ive noticed in the army is the prominence of "critical thinking" being promoted throughout the lower ranks. What that means to me is now you have lower enlisted thinking out side of the box and INDEPENDANTLY. When you nurture that train of thought, it tends to become an abrasive ideal to those that were used to soldiers just jumping at their beck and call.

What can we do to maintain disclipline? Well, the leadership dynamic has to change to be honest. the "Toxic" leaders that you always read about in the army times are producss, in my opinion, of the way the army used to be. The philosophy of im higher ranking and im always right mentality doesnt work well when those beneath you have learned to think for themselves. Going back to my first paragraph, to really increase the level of disclipline in the Army, one really needs to think about how to create pride in their soldiers. It's not about uniforms any more, it's about envoking pride and ownership in our young soldiers.

High level of professionalism? I think this train of though needs to be reworded. I often ask myself, what is the primary goal of the Armed Forces? Well, to put it in its most basic terms; I would have to say, to kill our nations enemies. We protect our nation and its values by killing those that would otherwise take those ideas away. To call us professionals, i feel, is somwhat innacurate. when you think of professionals, you would typically think of someone that works at IBM, Microsoft, or some Banking institution. I believe that we should change that wording to, to steal my last commanders mantra, A culture of excellence. With that, a mind set could be put forth to achieve excellence in everything you do. then we wouldnt fit the suit and tie drone stereotype of the professional but the army that strives for excellence in everything it accomplishes.

What changes should be made or revoked to better our Army?

I wish i could awnser that. But there is such a divide in our armed forces from that i can see. You have on one hand, that rigid army of the past. On the other you have the indepentantly thinking army of today. I really feel that there has to be some kind of middle ground that we can achieve. The army is an evolutionary organization, to which i would hate to see revert back to old ways. I feel that the army will continue to evolve and it should be let to do that so we can continue to meet the changing battlefront and tumultous political environment that is affecting the world as a whole.

Sorry if that was long winded and has poor grammar, i could'nt really copy and paste into word so i could proof read what i am writing. Thanks for the question and i hope i dont get blasted too much!

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 24 at 2014 6:27 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 18:27:42 -0400

Old school discipline should definitely be reinstated. My first 3 years in the Army there were more soldiers who learned better discipline as the result of "wall to wall" counseling. Granted this was back in 1979 but there is a lot to be said for it. Standing at parade rest or at ease for passing senior ranking em's is only part of the disciplinary problem that plagues the Army today. I will leave the rest of the issues at the side of the road for now.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 1 at 2014 4:47 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:47:54 -0400

"Old school" leadership would be great in my opinion, however, it is no longer considered to be politically correct. Some soldiers would benefit more from the old school methods than they do from the leadership they receive today. While I don't believe in the "do it because I say so" reasoning, but this too goes along with old school. Do it and bitch about it later. It is called following orders, and they are to be followed only to the point that the order does not go against good military order and discipline, is illegal, or immoral.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 5 at 2014 10:02 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 22:02:59 -0400

Oldest Argument in the Military "I remember when" Set the way back Machine "You Guys got it easy". Of course it was harder for the guys that came before us and easier for those that came after. Will always be that way. Not that they are any Less Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. The Military has always been moving to a more technical arena so the skills that we needed are not the same ones they will need.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 5 at 2014 10:13 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 22:13:40 -0400

What is the 'New Army'?

Response by SGT Jason Doyle made Apr 6 at 2014 11:05 AM

SGT Jason Doyle — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 11:05:26 -0400

I believe the new Army has both its pros and cons. First start with the pros, today's soldiers are more tech savvy, better at problem solving, and are more tolerant of diversity. On the flip side, these soldiers have less discipline, a sense of entitlement, and more focused on the individual than the team. Overall, I think this generation of warrior does not compare with those who came before them.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 6 at 2014 5:20 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 17:20:13 -0400

Today's military is in a state of over use and from what I saw before I retired, un focused. Iits greatest asset - the service member - is now its greatest vulnerability. Why? Revolving door deployments, loss of mission focus from the top and too much MOS related retraining to meet the mission need.

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 7:09 PM

MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 19:09:12 -0400

I agree with all except SGT Doyle's statement about being good at problem solving. This generation does not know how to communicate at an intellectual or social level. They know how to communicate via text message or social media and most of the time it is in words I don't understand. When it comes to problem solving they are so use of others doing and making decisions for them, or they don't understand the meaning of an ethical decision that they fail to understand the stress of PS and how it has second and third order affects

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 12:46 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 00:46:07 -0400

Possibly a question as old as the army itself. This one is subjective. It will depend on who you ask and what their idea of good and bad are.

I personally believe that the army must evolve constantly to better face the ever changing landscape of generational gaps, foreign threat, political influence and pressure, and financial constraints.
Personally I believe the biggest problem with change is that it is usually made by people so far removed from real-world conditions that they frequently make changes that are generally impractical or superfluous.
Back to my beginning thought, it's all in who you ask. Lord, I could go on about this one. Excellent question!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 1:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 01:00:12 -0400

I think what most people fail to realize is that this "new Army" is nothing more than a by-product of our culture as of late. Most of these new Soldiers coming in are stemming from a "latch-key kid" mentality. These young Soldiers are being dropped in to a world very foreign to their cultural norm. It is a huge adjustment to take a young 17 or 18 year old kid who has spent the last 5-10 years of their life essentially raising themselves due to two parents working non-stop or a single family home where they were consistently left to look after themselves and be put into a system that is rigid and disciplined. It is only natural that there will be some serious kick-back when they start getting told what to do, how to do it, what to wear and how to act. For some of these kids it would be like being a foreign exchange student in a new country and just being immersed in the culture. This is not a negative reflection on our youthful Soldiers but rather an insight into what kinds of issues might be running through their heads. I don't think there is such a think as an old-Army and a new-Army. These are just hype phrases that are used to differentiate the cultural differences that rest between this new-age of Soldier and Soldiers from yesteryear. The Army itself has not changed. It is a machine. We may change out the gears and few belts hear and there but the machine will always stay the same.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 7 at 2014 11:32 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 11:32:45 -0400

Okay, here we go again, yet another "generational" discussion. And while this thread can be closed as a duplicate thread; I think it is more important to understand why the leaders in the military are quick to blame change, technology, and generational gaps for the issues you are all facing. Sure it is easy to say younger Soldiers are lacking discipline or respect but isn't the job of the NCO to train and teach those things to the younger Soldiers. Sure, the military is in a time of change. After 10+ years of being a "fighting force" the military is shifting back into more a protective mode and the size of the force is getting smaller.

I said it before in another thread, the challenges being faced by today's leaders in the military are nothing new. WWII Veterans faced the same thing with those that joined before the fight in Korea. Those service members faced the same thing if not more, with those that enlisted and were drafted for the fight in Vietnam. Vietnam Veterans then faced it with the force that signed up to defend our nation against what most thought was going to be an attack from Russia. Then came the Desert Storm Veterans now our Generation, the Post-9/11 Veterans are finding ourselves having to train these new service members to stand ready for whatever unknown enemy they will face next. Are there some challenges ahead of you all, for sure. You are going from a force that has been at war for years to a force that will finally have a lot of time in garrison. That change will not come easy. You'll still have to train those service members that fought in the sands of Iraq and Afghanistan and deal with those challenges but again this is nothing new. There is no such thing as a "New Army"; your name tape over your heart still reads "US ARMY". So embrace the suck as one of my 1SGs used to say and train. When that training is done, train some more but with the service member's life and care at the front of your mind. Stop seeing things as show stoppers and look for ways to embrace the gifts and talents this new generation of service member brings to the unit.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Apr 28 at 2014 1:40 AM

SSG Mike Angelo — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 01:40:07 -0400

SGT Benjamin, Old school is over rated. You do make a point in overall observation. I would say with 95% confidence that you have changed in time. At one point, you were a Pvt or E-4 once upon a time. It is true, you can never be one of the troops again. Congratulations on your transition in the ranks.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Jun 1 at 2014 12:10 AM

SFC Michael W. — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 00:10:21 -0400

It depends...are they still giving out "stress cards"? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of! I retired just in time because had a soldier showed me one of those card I would've told him to pull his head out of his "four-point contact and move out smartly"! I'd be in 1SG office probably every week. Discipline is severly lacking in this "new" Army, we have weaken the powers of a Noncommissioned Officer...

Response by PO1 Jeremy Chubb made Jun 1 at 2014 11:00 PM

PO1 Jeremy Chubb — Sun, 01 Jun 2014 23:00:50 -0400

My opinion (and it is My opinion) is that if someone has to pull out a stress card because they are being yelled at, then they are in the wrong line of work. The yelling is not personal. It is the way to get the point across in a positive way. I would rather have to get onto someone at the right time then let them get away with "it" because of a stress card and end up costing people their lives. If someone wants to pull out a stress card because of being yelled at, then get the hell out of the military. Just remember, "you: volunteered for the job. The draft is not in effect. When I joined, they had them and the instructors straight out said if anyone pulls one out on them, then it would be shoved up (you know what). It is called discipline and it works.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Jul 30 at 2014 11:53 AM

SSG Ed Mikus — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 11:53:28 -0400

The Army is what we lead it to become, the leaders make the decisions they do based on the information they have, no mater that decision we must make the best of it and keep this nation strong.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2014 1:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 13:40:43 -0400

SGT Hevener,

I had a retired SMA (CSM Tilley) visit my class while I was attending SLC a couple of years back. The questioned was asked, "CSM what could I do about the changes that the Army is making because our Soldiers is lacking necessary skills and discipline required to survive "He said you as leaders have Soldiers right? We all said HOOAH!! He then said the only advice I can give you is control your Soldiers and train them the way you think that they should be trained. If you do that while maintaining a high standard nothing outside of YOUR immediate section, really matters.Then eventually those Soldiers will leave you and carry on the training and skills you have taught them. Remember also to enforce high standards and your subordinates will become leaders one day and they will enforce them too. Ever since he told us that, I have been doing exactly as he mentioned. I also learned by setting high standards you will not always be the favorite, but you will be respected by your Soldiers for teaching them things that others leaders haven't.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2014 10:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 22:32:41 -0400

Soup sandwich is all I have to say about it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2014 10:29 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:29:59 -0400

SGT Hevener,
First off thanks for posting this. These sorts of debates are always fun to me. In my opinion we need certain things to change for the better. My new group of soldiers are straight blue falcons. I got 6 new soldiers in 2 weeks time and all my old guys left. They came late, did what they wanted and blew me off. At first I gave them corrective training, talked to them, yelled at them, but it wasn't working. I had ended up counseling them for their negative actions. I explained to them that if they do not want to be in the Army, I will start a counseling package to get them out immediately. I also explained to them that I have no desire to kick them out, however with all the drawbacks, we only need people who want to be here. I am extremely fair, but once you cross that line I am very firm and I bring down the hammer. I have the full support of my Seniors NCOs and Warrant. Some soldiers learn by corrective training, some by paperwork. I will say one of the soldiers counseled woke up after I told him, if he keeps going at this pace, he will have to explain to his parents why he got kicked out of the Army after being in 6 months. We need good leaders who are fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jun 20 at 2018 12:59 AM

MSG John Duchesneau — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 00:59:16 -0400

While the Army is becoming more tech oriented, there will always be a need for front line Infantrymen. Soldiers should think of themselves as warriors first and their specialty second.

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Aug 16 at 2019 12:29 PM

SSG Kenneth Ponder — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 12:29:21 -0400

It's what you got, deal with it. Work within it or get out!