The stigma of the 2LT.

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 22:46:08 -0400

I have to say that being a new officer is one of the most challenging jobs in the military due to the learning curve being so steep. I have lost count on how many times I have been called out for being a LT but the truth of the matter is that just about every time this occurs I actually have more time in service than the person blindly calling out a LT. If I am wrong I have no problem with someone offering their opinion but to simply pull the "LOST LT" card and continue with challenging everything simply due to that person is newly commissioned is absurd.

I know LT's lack experience, that is why they have an PSG there to guide them. To be honest I still don't and will never understand why one would try to elevate themselves above their PL or just any LT. That LT is one set of promotion orders away from being your next company commander.

Just look at it this way. Two 2LTs won Best Ranger. Just finishing it is an accomplishment but winning it is as a LT is unheard of till now. They competed against NCOs and other Officers from all over the Army and won.

What have you seen in your unit? Have you seen this go over board beyond the typical compass joke?

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 7 at 2014 11:06 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 23:06:46 -0400

I have to agree with MSG Carl Cunningham on this. Yes, 2LT's are new leaders, and yes, it's all in good fun to make the map jokes, but as an NCO if you don't take the time to mentor them, and as a fellow leader "have their back" you are screwing up. For what? a laugh?

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Aug 7 at 2014 11:08 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 23:08:15 -0400

For what it's worth, 2nd Lieutenants don't have nearly as much of a stigma in the Marine Corps as they do in the Army. In the Marine Corps, 2nd Lieutenants have the title of Platoon Commander. There is still some joking around in the Corps, but for the most part, Marine 2nd Lieutenants are just the OIC and that's that. This is probably because the Marine Corps is smaller and can be more selective, and because the initial training is quite a bit more thorough.

I never really understood 2nd Lieutenant jokes until I transferred to the Army (as a Captain) and began seeing how Lieutenants were treated, which was fairly foreign to me.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2014 3:01 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Aug 2014 03:01:59 -0400

I spent 4 years and change enlisted and I had some pretty clueless LTs. Now that I am one I don't too many LT jokes outside of my old squad leader and PSG. It is what it is, it is part of military culture. If I know the NCO well enough I usually joke back and say WOW A LT JOKE NEVER HEARD THOSE or say NCO jokes. My encounters with it were professional but joking and usually in private.

LT's are a mixed bag, hit or miss and it is a learning position by far. LT's like everyone make mistakes, however, the gravity of their authority and position however, air those out for many to see and compound the implications with, in worst case, deadly results.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Aug 8 at 2014 8:52 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Fri, 08 Aug 2014 08:52:30 -0400

Well I can tell you after spending 2 1/2 years training 2LTs during A-BOLC that there are a lot of new 2LTs that deserve the ribbing/joking that they receive. Now, I will also say that IF and I reiterate, IF the 2LTs PSG (or the other NCOs within the PLT) at his/her first duty station allow the new 2LT to flounder about and not mentor/train that 2LT to assist them in growing and learning then shame on that PSG for he/she is not doing a part of their job. On the other side of that coin though, if the new 2LT does not allow him/herself to learn from their PSG (or the other NCOs within the PLT) because they think they "know how" to do things right off the bat, well then all bets are off!!
It's time honored tradition that the new 2LT is going to get hazed, I would try not to be too butt-hurt over it, I can remember as a young PFC being hazed until I had proven myself and become a qualified Tanker and not just a 19E1O that thought he was!!

Response by CMC Robert Young made Aug 9 at 2014 5:34 AM

CMC Robert Young — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 05:34:56 -0400

Sir, since they are both 2LTs, do they have to salute each other?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 11 at 2017 9:23 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:23:17 -0400

The LT that has years of on the ground in unit relative experience to the assignment they find them selfs in as a newly commissioned LT are RARE,,,exceedingly rare.
The chances of being branched and then further assigned to a job that aligns with ones enlisted experiences are astronomical. So the LT Rosa situation is an outlier and as much as I admire CPT Private RallyPoint Member for only looking for the best way forward even when confronted with an idiot NCO, his case is not typical.

So typical.. a 2LT, newly assigned to the unit, or a 1LT who was in the S3 shop a few months, over at the S1 shop, up at DIV and now finds them selfs newly promoted and in charge of a platoon.
Its simple// Lieutenant, the decision is always yours to decide.....but reality is, it will be many months until you have the breadth of knowledge and experience to make that decision unilaterally with a chance of success being more than dumb luck..... So use and rely on me, the NCO....give me the authority to make the decisions you don't need to, talk with me before the decisions you must make when ever possible, and be ready to change your decision when it proves to be wrong, and it will be more often then you want...but that is one of the ways you gain the experience you so greatly need.

To respond to LT Rosa's statement of an NCO that "elevate themselves above their PL" Yes it happens and should not..., as does the young inexperienced LT attempting to assert his new found authority by making choices and decisions they have neither the institutional knowledge or experience to make successfully, but they do so anyway because "IM IN CHARGE" Yes you are LT and now your in charge of a task or mission that failed and it could have been avoided had you just took a min to discuss how to best accomplish the mission with NCO's and other enlisted that have successfully accomplished this task before.
The LT that fails, and understand it could have been avoided, I can work with that LT.

The LT that fails and blames every one else for that failure ...that LT is destined to fail again, and again, setting them selfs up to be that Angry Major passed over twice having never had a company to command, or had it oh so briefly but cut short when the company failed time and time again to complete the BN commanders intent or assigned mission to standard.

When I see a company commander or Maj that does not trust, use his NCO's its of one of two flavors. In the past someplace there were senior NCO's that let him down, let him fail when they did not need to..Did not help him to grow, and earn the respect of his subordinates.
Or it is an officer that tries to lead though the authority giving to him by rank, by UCMJ. That officer is fond of telling people he is in charge.... Something real leaders know, need never be done, if your an actual leader not someone with just paper authority.

“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.”
― Margaret Thatcher

"If you find yourself having to remind everyone all of the time that you're the sergeant major and you're in charge, you're probably not."
― SMA Dailey