The USAF recently removed the POW/MIA table from Patrick AFB because it had a bible on it. How do you feel about it?

2015-04-09T05:48:24-04:00

Air Force removes POW/MIA 'Missing Man' table because it includes a Bible - BizPac Review

Something is missing from the Riverside Dining Facility at Patrick Air Force Base: the traditional POW/MIA “Missing Man” table. Such tables, a mainstay at military bases and veterans’ organizations, are set for six, one for each service — the Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard and civilian personnel — representing personnel missing in action …

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Apr 9 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-04-09T10:12:47-04:00

I am not a christian, and I do not feel that ANY religion should be introduced into government facilities. In the movie Kingdom of Heaven there is a line about all of the horrible things that are done in the name of religion.
Had it been a cross, I would say remove the cross leave the table.
A bible is not a symbol of religion. It is a book of faith. Faith is what POWs have that they have not been forgotten. Faith is what families of POW/MIA have that they will be reunited with their missing loved one.
There is a huge difference between FAITH and RELIGION.
I think that having a "Missing Man" table is an awesome idea. It should be a requirement in every chow hall across the armed services. They are our brothers and sisters in arms who have been lost in the chaos. They should be honored. THey should never be forgotten. If a bible, quarran, torrah, havamal, book of mormon, vedic text, etc. is left on the table, by a service member it should be left there. It was left by a fellow service member for a missing service member. It has nothing to do with religion. It is an act of faith saying the motto of the POW/MIA flag "You are not Forgotten"

PUT THE TABLE BACK PATRICK AFB!!!

Response by SGT James Hastings made Apr 9 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-04-09T10:18:57-04:00

We still have both happening in some part of our service world so they should be honored.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:28 AM

2015-04-09T10:28:10-04:00

I may not be a practicing religious person, but I will say this..........WHO CARES that a Bible is on the table. I dont go to church, but seeing a Bible on a table certainly does not disturb my thoughts and/or beliefs. Hell, even if the case was that I did not like the sight of the Bible, then I would just have to suck it up and make the choice of............wait for it...........NOT LOOK AT THE TABLE. People really need to pull that wad of underwear and their heads from their 4th point of contact and grab a fresh breath of air.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Apr 9 at 2015 10:37 AM

2015-04-09T10:37:25-04:00

Keep them both!!!! It's a matter of heritage and tradition for the military services, and has been since the beginning of time.

Nobody demanded that the PC crowd read/believe the Bible. Only to recognize that it is a symbol of faith often which is the only thing upon which to place our hopes/dreams. Faith in and hope for the return of those lost to us is all the lost/missing, their families, or we as service members have. Without it why ever worry about or search for a missing service member. If we have no faith that they might one day be returned to their native land, why bother?

The PC crowd needs to get a hobby. They clearly have far too much time on their hands if they have time to destroy our traditions/heritage; or maybe they simply don't understand that we have traditions/heritage. Or more importantly, that without these traditions and this heritage that we become just like everybody else; an organization without an individual culture that binds people together in a common cause is just a disorganized crowd or worse yet a gang. Our shared tradition makes us what we are, and without it, we simply are not.

Lastly, somebody somewhere in the military needs to stand up and tell these who seek their moment in the sun by denigrating others (and our service) to sit down and shut up. They need to remember, you joined us; we didn't join you. It's OUR collective tradition/heritage. You knew there were rules, regulation, core values, and yes even traditions when you signed up. You are either one of us, or you're a poser who can't be one of us.

Response by SSgt Joe V. made Apr 9 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-04-09T10:44:21-04:00

Keep both and remove the people that complain - forcibly.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-04-09T10:53:14-04:00

This has to be from the people who cry for the separation of Church and State. The problem with almost all of those people, however, is that they are completely misinformed as to why that came about. The founding fathers called for the separation to keep the State out of the Church, which is one of the main reasons colonists came over here. They never wanted to keep the Church out of the State. If they did, we wouldn't have God mentioned in the majority of our founding documents. One of the first things George Washington did once inaugurated was consecrate this country to God...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 11:27 AM

2015-04-09T11:27:04-04:00

Why not just remove the bible? I mean if they have to appease someone. All I know is I am an atheist and in the nine years that I've been in I can honestly say I never cared if there was a bible on it or not. Let's be honest, to try to represent every religion in the forces would be nearly impossible. Christians make up the largest portion, so . . . meh?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 9 at 2015 11:27 AM

2015-04-09T11:27:45-04:00

Which bible was it?
There are a couple you know and not all "Christian" religions use the same one.

But since we appear to be headed to a state sponsored religion ... I guess they should keep it.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 2:02 PM

2015-04-09T14:02:41-04:00

Just needed one to vote for one of the choices. How about just remove the bible and press on, although the bible is part of the ceremony. No one religion represents us all. POW/MIA table but the table that represents all those that went before us MUST STAY.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-04-09T14:25:48-04:00

We don't have an option of removing the book?

Response by SPC David S. made Apr 9 at 2015 2:26 PM

2015-04-09T14:26:12-04:00

I say keep the table and just a untitled blank book on the table. It could represent many things. Faith, unfinished work, and loss. Walling off faith and removing the table however is not the answer. It's a concession to indifference.

Response by MAJ Nathan Potter made Apr 9 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-04-09T19:51:04-04:00

This display is symbolic and ultimately reminds us that not everyone gets to come home. Many of us have faith, most of us live by a code, all of us eventually answer to someone. I think I am more bothered by 'unnamed complaints'

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Apr 9 at 2015 9:00 PM

2015-04-09T21:00:42-04:00

What are people thinking? The "Missing Man" table is a beacon of hope that an MIA will be found or gets home. The Bible is a reminder that we must put our trust in God to give us closure on any or [hopefully] all MIA's.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 7:10 AM

2015-04-10T07:10:45-04:00

SSgt Joe V. I am sick of the petty little atheistic idiots who cannot just mind their own business.. I am sure ISIS needs more troops.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Apr 10 at 2015 8:44 AM

2015-04-10T08:44:20-04:00

I wish I could choose 2..... Keep both and ignore unnamed complaints. If you have an issue (other then stuff like sexual assult etc where you want to do confidential reporting), stuff like this, if you don't leave a name, don't expect it to be addressed. Cannot discuss the concerns or issues with an "unnamed few"..... really sort out the root of the issue. Leave the POW/MIA table alone. It is a valued piece of military tradition.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 10 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-04-10T12:08:38-04:00

As most of you know here, even though my dad is a successful minister in the United Methodist Church, I'm not overly religious. I think the world can be a better place if we don't feel the need to push our views on others however, I think in this case, with the powerful overall meaning behind the POW/MIA/Fallen Service Member Table; removing the entire table based on the fact that it had a bible on it is just wrong. This table stands for and means lot more than that. I'll never forget being at an event last year and a civilian who didn't know what the table meant put his drink down on the table so he could send a text message. I walked over to him and calmly asked him to remove his drink and explained what the table meant. After I explained it to him, he was deeply sorry and spent the rest of the night explaining to other civilians what the table means.

I think it is important that we as military professionals ensure that when and where this table is displayed that we ensure it is honored because by doing so we are honoring everyone that the table honors. If they don't want the bible on table or what to cover the table with our regelious books rather than hold to the true meaning of the table than I suggest they set up a smaller table close to but not interfering with the POW/Fallen Service Member Table. The most important thing is they figure out a way to make the Table stand.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Apr 10 at 2015 12:10 PM

2015-04-10T12:10:56-04:00

I THINK IT UNFAIR THAT BECAUSE SOME ONE THINKS THERE RIGHTS ARE BEING INFRINGED ON THEY CAN INFRINGE ON MINE.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Apr 10 at 2015 1:03 PM

2015-04-10T13:03:07-04:00

I don't honestly see how a POW/MIA table with a bible on it is offensive to anyone.
In my opinion the commander of Patrick Air Force Base is showing his weakness and inability to command. If he has to remove something due to an anonymous complaint then what will happen when another anonymous complaint arises with something equally outrageous? Is he going to bow down to every single anonymous demand because someone is offended? As for the POW/MIA table, put it back post haste. Add in some other religious books, add a Quran, a Jewish holy book, or whatever religions need to be represented. They can get smaller copies of those books and place them respectfully on the table. We are after all a military of varied race, creed and religion. In my opinion the base commander needs to fill out a 1348-1 and requisition some courage.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Apr 10 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-04-10T22:14:54-04:00

just take away the damn bible.... but im atheist soo no one probably cares what i think lol i personally think religion is an out dated concept....god... you might as well say santa claus , tooth fairy or the easter bunny

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-04-11T10:31:35-04:00

After reviewing this I feel a need to ask this. If having a bible on a table is pushing religion on you Is displaying a LGBT flag trying to push me to partake in that lifestyle?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 11:16 AM

2015-04-11T11:16:24-04:00

Punishing the masses for the benefit of the few. That's what America has become.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 11 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-04-11T11:22:21-04:00

Option E, keep the table, dump the religious propaganda..

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Apr 11 at 2015 11:32 AM

2015-04-11T11:32:30-04:00

I like Capt Christopher Mueller's response.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 11:54 AM

2015-04-11T11:54:32-04:00

Not sure why anyone would have to make a ruckus over a bible on the table in the manner of its representation which is faith.. Okay so your are an atheist, Muslim, or non Christian I understand you don't believe. But you hear the stories many times of POW's and of how their faith carried them through. Or how faith and hope help those of MIA's help them cope and live day to day. In the hope of their love ones someday returning. Does it really disturb your life that much that some need the comfort of the Lord. can you not put your selfish protest aside for the greater good of those that need comfort. Yes it is a government institution and you want separation from church and state but can you not make an exception? Can there not be a little grey area for a time when we care more for others then for ourselves and our own personal motives of self righteousness.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 12:31 PM

2015-04-11T12:31:49-04:00

With all due respect, that story wasn't the whole story. It is going to be present again but a disagreement over the Bible's presence or absence caused a debate to have it removed initially.

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2014/03/28/bible-sparks-missing-man-table-controversy/7042197/

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 11 at 2015 2:43 PM

2015-04-11T14:43:23-04:00

If we bow down to these vociferous people we will have no American Flags or Anthem. Taking pictures of the bald eagles is an intrusion on them, no veteran stickers because they don't believe in wars. War can be sacred, let the dying soldier see a chaplain his carrying his bible, it might give the soldier (all branches) peace and confidence to see the maker.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Apr 11 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-04-11T15:48:23-04:00

after reading the article several times here are my thoughts
1. Faith the belief in this things unseen. the use of the bible in this situation is used as a symbol not as a way of proselytizing.
i have seen displays were the bible(it was black with silver edged pages) was placed were the words Holy Bible could not be seen and i and many others still identified it as the bible.
2. we as a nation need to stop being so thinned skinned and letting everything offend us and look at the big picture and stop being selfish little brats and only thinking of ourselves.
3. the anonymous complainer please show yourself and take credit for what you believe in. if you are unable to take the heat of the fire you start then do not start the fire.
4. even though i am proud to have retired from the USAF their actions of the last several years with political correctness and has left me very lukewarm and glad i retired when i did

this is my humble opinion

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 11 at 2015 3:59 PM

2015-04-11T15:59:52-04:00

We are not constitutionally guaranteed the right not to be offended. We are guaranteed freedom of speech and religion Ignore the nameless complaints. Keep the table

Response by PV2 Violet Case made Apr 11 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-04-11T16:05:24-04:00

Keep it as it was. Never remove our bible or our flag from anything for anyone. If others come into our country they do so knowing what our country stands for and how it is. If they do not like it that way maybe they should stay where they are not matter who or where they come from. If they want to read their bibles so be it. If someone served in your town and you feel it appropriate take a vote to see if other bibles should be added but never ever remove our flags or bibles. You will be changing American values that have stood strong for centuries to take that bible away. They will never take mine away as long as I live. Look at how our America was when it was standing strong with those values to what it is today. Will we remain America?

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 11 at 2015 4:35 PM

2015-04-11T16:35:22-04:00

I have never been a POW. I only know what I read, and what former POW's say. You will be very hard pressed to find a POW that said they survived 5+ years in captivity holding on to their belief of...........nothing. If we had testimony of a Muslim POW who survived holding on to their belief in the Koran, by all means include it on the table. The issue isn't forcing the Bible on anyone, but rather the importance of their belief in an almighty creator, by whatever name they want to know him by. If a decision MUST be made as to what is proper to place on a POW's Missing Man table, I would like the decision to be made by them. I am not worthy of making that decision for them.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-04-11T16:47:15-04:00

keep the table and add the constitution.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Apr 11 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-04-11T17:43:34-04:00

We need to stop playing the "I'm offended" game. It dilutes instances of real offense.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Apr 11 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-04-11T18:22:15-04:00

I think the most glaring issue here is that it seems as though they are tossing the baby out with the bathwater. 1) Vietnam was the war nobody wanted and yet so many were forced to take part in it. Our Vietnam vets have had to endure some of the most hideous forms of disrespect for their service and have been shown the greatest degree of being unloved and disrespected of any group of veterans from any conflict we have ever been involved. To me this is like another knife to the heart for them, and why? Because someone has a problem with there being a bible associated with it? How petty can you be? 2) Nobody is required to pick up the bible and read it, in fact I'm sure the general sentiment is that it would be preferred if the display was left undisturbed. If you have a problem with the bible, too bad, suck it up because a majority of the blood that has been spilled in service to this country has been by people who believe in the bible, so if nothing else just shut up out of respect for THEM. 3) Many of our fellow countrymen and brothers-in-arms have been greatly affected by the POW/MIA situation and either have had family members or close friends and associates who fall into that category. For ANY member of a branch of our military to show such utter contempt toward them, as well as the POW/MIA personnel themselves, is completely unacceptable and treasonous as far as I'm concerned. Just because YOU have a problem with God yourself does not give you license to discount or belittle the beliefs of those who have gone before you, who forged the way for you to have a career in our great military. What's next, are we going to start tearing down our national monuments which have references to God on them because you don't like them, too? Like it or not, God and the belief in God is a big part of our national heritage, and the intent is not there to offend you no matter how offended you are by it. More than anything, I am offended that such a time-honored tradition as honoring our POW/MIA would be so mindlessly discarded by a branch of our military service. Unbelievable.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-04-11T18:36:59-04:00

Stop being so concerned with hurting everyone's feelings. Im quite sure the majority have no issues with a bible.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 8:20 PM

2015-04-11T20:20:47-04:00

Until we find a better way to represent faith(even if it's just faith in the military to rescue you) leave it on the table and leave the table where it is. If you have a non religious symbol that does that as well as a bible, perhaps the decision could be made, but leave it until then.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 8:24 PM

2015-04-11T20:24:27-04:00

The bible is optional and not mandatory addition to the table as the article states. Seeing as the religious text is optional, I believe that it should not be included on the table unless the table for in memory of a specific individual that identified with the religion. (Note: It is interesting how the removal of the book is not even an option in the above)

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Apr 11 at 2015 10:15 PM

2015-04-11T22:15:28-04:00

I'm just going to call it like I see. Seems to me that the Air Force Chief of Staff, and the Secretary of the Air Force are cowards. How do they expect to Lead when they are going to exercis cowardice? If you two are going to give up; what are you going to expect from your people in battle?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 11 at 2015 10:20 PM

2015-04-11T22:20:00-04:00

On the Navy side a long time ago, I recall the table but not a Bible on it. The MSes would replenish the slice of lemon representing the bitterness of loss and there'd always be salt to represent the tears.

The survey didn't have an option of keep the table but without the Bible. In today's culture it's more of have them all or have none mentality. When I was doing selection boards at Millington, the various religious books were available to panel members. They did get used. Don't know if it is still done today.

The Constitution provides for freedom OF religion. It doesn't provide for freedom FROM religion, presuming you stick with the general plain meaning of the words. A number don't which is the basis of ongoing litigation.

Too bad some complainers don't ask for their book to be added to aid in their remembrance.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 1:17 AM

2015-04-12T01:17:42-04:00

I have an idea. Leave the table. Send a lieutenant to Kay's or jarred, buy an empty charm bracelet. Put the charm bracelet on the table. Create a ten page SOP describing the process for adding religious charms and the standards for the charms. No repeats on charms. Place charms on bracelet. Create plaque detailing origin of custom/tradition and religions(or lack thereof) on bracelet. Everyone who cares is included. Everyone who doesn't care still doesn't.
Hell, I live a block south of Patrick, I'll buy the bracelet and the first seven charms myself.
I'm a genius.
And I should stop posting at 1am.

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Apr 12 at 2015 2:00 AM

2015-04-12T02:00:43-04:00

Did a little research on the "Fallen Comrade/Missing Man Table" I can find no tradition from any of the services or other sources that state a Bible is on the table. I know in the ceremonies that I have participated in over the years there never has been a Bible. It may have been something locally a Commanding Officer wanted done. I do believe that the removal of the whole dispaly is not the proper solution.

Response by SFC Charles S. made Apr 12 at 2015 4:17 AM

2015-04-12T04:17:35-04:00

I say allow the bible to remain, but as far as I know it's not a required Item on the POW / MIA table. Here is the list that most VFW/AL posts use to set up their tables.

This is an outline of items required for a POW/MIA Table display.
1. Small table (usually enough for only one or two people).
2. White table cloth (plain cotton looks the best).
3. A distinctive dish and silverware setting for elegant dining.
4. A rose (real for special occasions, but silk for permanent display) in a glass vase.
5. Red ribbon (tied at the base of the vase).
6. Slice of lemon (real for special occasions, but silk for permanent display).
7. Small plate with a small pile of salt.
8. A nice looking dinner (water) glass (inverted).
9. One chair

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 7:05 AM

2015-04-12T07:05:29-04:00

It is a symbol and needs to be kept.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 10:41 AM

2015-04-12T10:41:02-04:00

The Bible was not there to push some religious ideal onto others. It is a symbol of hope. Hope to those who believe that their loved one will still return. It is a symbol of faith. Faith for those who are still missing. Faith that we have not forgotten them, and are still actively searching for them. It is a symbol of Honor. Honor to those who sacrificed themselves for a greater cause. For the defense of the helpless, the oppressed, and the vulnerable.

Response by MSgt Robert Pellam made Apr 12 at 2015 1:53 PM

2015-04-12T13:53:21-04:00

First, Keep the bible and the Table. If it is tradition leave it.

Second, this is a failure on the Leadership of Patrick AFB. Who ever made the decision to pull the whole table made a knee jerk reaction that is in my eyes so incompetent it makes me wonder how they got into a position of leadership.

Leadership should always honor those that go before us. If there was a debate about the bible, as a leader you need to get the facts, Check the regulations and then weigh your options.

Who ever made this decision needs to stop.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-04-12T16:59:00-04:00

I have seen many POW/MIA tables and have never seen a Bible on one. Keep the table - don't put the Bible on it.

Response by MSgt Manuel Diaz made Apr 12 at 2015 6:31 PM

2015-04-12T18:31:29-04:00

I recon most pow/mia, considering they are alive, only have a hope and a prayer that they live through it. The bible represents that hope.
I myself am not the holy roller type; however those that are offended by the bible offend me more than those holy rollers do... sometimes now and then I remember to say a prayer, mostly when no one is looking.... which sometimes is a lot.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 12 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-04-12T18:43:04-04:00

Those table displays have been around for many years. If you are so easily offended by a book laying on a table, then the military is NOT for you. Put your Big Boy (or Girl) panties on and get over it!

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Apr 13 at 2015 12:02 AM

2015-04-13T00:02:22-04:00

This is very disheartening. A longstanding tradition falling victim to political correctness. Clearly we have had POW's of religions other than Christian. The addition of other appropriate religious texts that correspond to the religions of other POW's sounds like an appropriate action.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Apr 13 at 2015 12:19 AM

2015-04-13T00:19:13-04:00

What was the intended purpose for removing the table? That was there for a long time who the hell did it hurt? IMHO that was wrong and stupid.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Apr 13 at 2015 1:27 AM

2015-04-13T01:27:28-04:00

I don't think it's important to have a bible to somehow suggest a "Christian" preference. There have been plenty of Jews & Muslims & Hindus & non-believers over the years who have been POWs and MIAs. I think the bible is a symbol of the strong conviction and belief that POWs have in the Country they serve. It is a symbol like the salt on the table is a symbol. As a symbol of that belief in America it should stay. If it is some banner of one religious belief system over any other, than it should go.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 1:46 AM

2015-04-13T01:46:04-04:00

Other - remove just the bible.

Response by SSG Christopher K. made Apr 13 at 2015 7:34 AM

2015-04-13T07:34:31-04:00

This is a controversial topic based on religion alone. This country was founded with principles and by people who followed the Christian faith. Many traditions are as to follow with that as well based on history and tradition. In the article is says that the National League of POW/MIA Families dictates a number of requirements based on traditions one of them being the bible on the table; "The Bible represents the strength gained through faith in our country, founded as one nation under God, to sustain those lost from our midst".
I understand with so many different religions out there they feel it discriminates against them. I do not feel that is the case at all, this is a time honored tradition that has nothing to do with the people it may offend, it has to do with the people missing and honoring them respectfully. I am not a religious person myself at all, but I am tired of hearing all this nonsense how tradition disrespects, violates or does not include each persons religious beliefs. That is not how tradition works, its nothing personal to anyone. Traditions are being lost forgotten or removed do to so much bullshit in my opinion. I joined the military with the understand that it works one way for all and that I must conform to it ot for the military to conform to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 7:35 AM

2015-04-13T07:35:08-04:00

This is absolutely absurd. It is a book, nothing more. If it offends you, DON'T LOOK AT IT.

Response by 1SG Scott MacGregor made Apr 13 at 2015 8:06 AM

2015-04-13T08:06:12-04:00

The Air Force is a lost soul. Since they parted with the Army in 1947 they have been driven to destroy themselves. If there was a chance to combine forces, bring back the Army Air Corps.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Apr 13 at 2015 9:24 AM

2015-04-13T09:24:13-04:00

I have set up a few MIA/POW tables before. A bible was not part of it. Why not simply remove just the bible? The table is to be set for those who can not join us for a meal because they have fallen in combat or are missing in combat. There is nothing religious about that.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-04-13T11:33:34-04:00

I fail to find any mention of the bible or faith reference in of the official POW/MIA websites.
I've been in 24 years and have NEVER heard, nor seen, the bible or that particular verse about faith.
Seems its been added recently.
So much for tradition.

http://armedforcesmuseum.com/the-white-table-a-remembrance-to-our-powmias/

http://www.vfwny.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/POW-MIA-Table-Ceremony.pdf

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 11:52 AM

2015-04-13T11:52:38-04:00

AFPAM 34-1202 makes optional for a "book of faith". When you consider 73% of our Active duty officers and enlisted have a "Christian" perspective, then the Bible is a book of faith that most will recognize. Jewish, Muslim and Christians all have a common heritage in Abraham, a major segment found in the Old Testament.

Additionally, when you consider the importance the Air Force places on Comprehensive Airmen Fitness (physical, social, mental and spiritual), then an article of faith continues to be appropriate. The Air Force also places a high value on the rights of its members to observe the tenets of their respective religion or to observe no religion at all. The Air Force is dedicated to maintaining an environment in which people can realize their highest potential. Having a book of faith is a reflection of this value. It doesn't push religion but is a token reminder to many the importance of their values, beliefs, principles, and to many their religious expressions.

Finally, when you consider the Chaplaincy branch is the second oldest branch within the Army, only behind the infantry, then you realize the importance our national leaders placed in our First Amendment protection of free exercise of religion.

Being offended is not the same as being coerced. Having a book of faith on the table may be offensive to a very small group. I suspect so are the crosses in our national cemeteries and having "In God we trust" on our money and as our national motto. The book of faith, the crosses at graves, and our motto is also be appreciated by a much larger group. Having a book of faith does not mean the government is pushing religion on those who don't want it. It is acknowledging faith in something beyond ourselves is in fact important to our national heritage.

Response by CPL Steve Carter made Apr 13 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-04-13T15:40:25-04:00

I believe there is something mentally wrong with this people and the military for acts like this there is no reason to move the table if it was because of the bible just pure wrong.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-04-13T18:02:59-04:00

I'm not anti-Air Force or anything, but it sure does seem like they're always doing this type of nonsense. Whoever made that call definitely showed a lack of respect for our veterans.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-04-13T18:34:05-04:00

There is nothing that discredits another's beliefs. Maintain the tradition.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 7:13 PM

2015-04-13T19:13:37-04:00

Keep both! Period!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 7:18 PM

2015-04-13T19:18:48-04:00

This whole thing we're people are so PC about absolutely everything is rediculous and they should just suckered it up and deal with it.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Apr 13 at 2015 7:36 PM

2015-04-13T19:36:02-04:00

All this could have been avoided if all religions were represented, because not all POW/MIA are Christians.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 10:32 PM

2015-04-13T22:32:37-04:00

The bible doesn't represent christianty. it represents the strength gained through the conviction of religion and the devotion to a higher purpose.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 6:46 AM

2015-04-14T06:46:44-04:00

The Bible should not have been removed. This is a time honored tradition. I find it very disrespectful to the POW/MIAs that this occurred. How sad that we have come to this.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 14 at 2015 9:13 AM

2015-04-14T09:13:20-04:00

Just another example of an unwarranted attack on faith in this Nation and another example of spinelessness. Someone needed to tell whoever and a problem with the Bible sitting on a table to remember our POW/MIA brothers and sisters to "SHUT THE F_C_ UP and get back to work." You have the right to be offended, but that does not mean you have the right to have anyone care.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Apr 14 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-04-14T09:27:15-04:00

This has gotten out of hand, what's next remove the crosses on the graves of Soldiers?

Response by SSG Buddy Kemper made Apr 14 at 2015 10:15 AM

2015-04-14T10:15:16-04:00

It makes me sad, brother.

Response by 1stSgt Timothy Lucas made Apr 14 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-04-14T10:18:03-04:00

History, tradition, sacrifice, brotherhood (not gender specific), and faith. This is what these types of mementos say to me. When we start removing things (one item at a time); eventually we will lose something. The next generation of warriors need to be reminded of why this nation is so great. It is because of the sacrifices of those who went before us (POW/MIA/KIA/WIA). Regardless of what an individual believes, this is not a religious conversation. It is about maintaining the traditions of our Services (Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force & Coast Guard).

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Apr 14 at 2015 11:53 AM

2015-04-14T11:53:17-04:00

This sounds like a whole lot of here say. Does anyone really know the facts here, or are people just picking something to get mad at?

Response by SPC Jacob Malec made Apr 14 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-04-14T14:01:42-04:00

I am personally not a believer but I am also not offended by seeing religious books. I know that they provide great comfort to many people.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-04-14T14:10:07-04:00

This is just another example of the slow erosion of not only our culture and heritage but the very moral fiber on which this country and our military were built. #socialismherewecome

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Apr 14 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-04-14T16:31:02-04:00

I feel a little sheepish because I made a post of my own about this very subject. I don't suppose it hurts to double or triple the effort to get the word out about it and allow people to express themselves accordingly. Had I seen this posting beforehand I would probably not have created a new topic about it, though. I just don't get why there are so many people who either want to re-write or dismiss our military heritage over something so trivial as their offense that a bible is involved. I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that people who would do something like this are holding any position of authority. The end result of this one is that our POW/MIA community is being willfully discounted and forgotten...and that is quite shameful.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Apr 14 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-04-14T16:51:52-04:00

People these days are just running around looking for a reason to be offended.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Apr 14 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-04-14T17:09:31-04:00

I'm not religious, but after my two consecutive tours in SEA during the US Army, I returned and went to the darkside and USAF SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) Master Instructor until I retired. The USAF has the ONLY career long SERE Instructors in the DOD. They specialize in Reintegration of Pow's. I can tell you that no matter your beliefs, you will ether find a source of inspiration or die as a Pow. The returnee's all state you must have faith to endure the endlessness of the torture / isolation, and that without it your chances of returning are almost completely null. So, one guy built a house in his mind in Vietnam and that occupied his time. Another planned endless after endless escapes but never got the opportunity to do so. All professed some level of "god" (no matter which) and that kept them sane. Let me put you in the place they are at, something unless you have been there or have been detailed you cannot imagine. After torturing you, they place you in a concrete cell, nothing in there, not even a chair. You sit on the floor, sleep on the floor, eat whatever crawls on the floor, defecate on the floor, piss on the floor, and in the dark wait on that damn cold floor. Your external references are all those provided by the enemy. He controls all external influences. He controls what you; see, hear, feel, breath, eat, drink. He controls how all that "overall" and incrementally is introduced to you. You begin to lose reference to your outside values, your outside structure of people, places, and identity begin to blur.

Strict confinement to solitary without books or any form of diversion will be a severe strain. We are so much a product of our environment that it requires a great effort of will to retain our personalities when that environment is removed. Solitary confinement is like living in a vacuum. All certainty is lost as the enemy applies more and more pressure in creative ways depending on your personality to break you down. You will begin to fear losing your sanity. Even in normal circumstances, few men have the ability to think a plan through and all its permutations resulting in a finality. Mental discipline will deteriorate. The same thoughts will begin to repeat themselves over and over. Just talking to a guard will be a relief. And .... you will realize that no one will ever know what happens there. Your actions will never be revealed (usually) and for the first time you are fighting alone. Responsible only to yourself. Your values which seemed worth fighting and dying for could suddenly seem doubtful.

Every day, they take you from the cell, a couple times a day, and torture you. No reason, no questioning, perhaps no talking, just torture. They take both your arms and tie them at the wrist behind your back, then lace a rope up your arms until the elbows touch and then until your shoulders touch, then tie your arms to your waist. They then tie your legs together. Lacing them also together. And then tie your arms to your legs, drawing the rope tight making you bend backwards as far as possible. Looping a rope over a ceiling pole, they draw you up into the air and you swing back and forth staring at the floor below you. Then they drop you. And draw you up and drop you. Over and over, not talking, day after day.

Your very sanity will begin to crack. It is when they are at this point in the softening up, that you begin to cast around for something, anything which will give you an edge to maintain. Something that will give you mental strength. Faith does that. For those not so inclined, it still gives that. And you grasp it and use it (even if you have no plans on doing so when free) as any good tool is discarded after use. For those who do believe, they have someone who is watching, helping in their spiritual way and knows what they are going through.

You can see that no matter which religion you may believe in, religion can be a tool for even a non-believer. The bible, or Koran, or whatever, are symbols. Are they used as a symbol or as a tool? You decide. "There are no Atheists in a foxhole" is symbolic also. So, if its only a symbol of the strength needed, then it really isn't a Bible, for non-believers its a tool.

Response by PO1 Cleve Ikaika Waiwaiole made Apr 14 at 2015 6:58 PM

2015-04-14T18:58:26-04:00

Good lord... What's wrong with people nowadays!!! Some people just have NOTHING BETTER TO DO!!! This pisses me off!!!!

Response by SrA Eric Olsen made Apr 14 at 2015 7:22 PM

2015-04-14T19:22:36-04:00

I am beyond fed up with all this PC garbage. Personally I have come to believe that it's not so much being offended as it is a form of control. If someone doesn't believe in God and the Bible then it seems that they are liable to take the situation to court to have the courts order it to be removed. This wasn't just one incident, this is part of a systematic attack on the Christian beliefs that is happening in this country in my opinion. From what I have been observing we have become a nation of intolerance when it comes to the Christian religion.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 9:01 PM

2015-04-14T21:01:22-04:00

Political correctness at it's worst. Should I remove all of the bibles my BN Chaplain left at my armory for the troops as well?

If it had been added yesterday, I could somewhat understand the complaint. However, this is a tradition that has been in place for decades. Nobody is proselytizing at the table. There's simply a holy book on display, which is more there for symbolism than any religious value. It wouldn't hurt my feelings as a Christian if someone placed a Qu'ran or Torah on the table instead. One small book is not hurting anyone.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Apr 14 at 2015 10:13 PM

2015-04-14T22:13:41-04:00

Since I like the idea of the POW/MIA table, I would like to see the USAF keep the table and in order to please all, remove the bible. That said, I am a Christian and read my bible everyday and would like to keep the bible on the table, but I do not want to see a Koran, or Wicken book, or any other book there, so make the policy, no books, fair to all, keep the table.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 15 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-04-15T00:09:12-04:00

Even though I do believe in a higher power it is my own personal belief. I try to keep everything as secular as possible to stay religiously neutral.

Response by SrA Randy Brown made Apr 15 at 2015 12:44 AM

2015-04-15T00:44:26-04:00

I am very upset with the attitude that our Country has developed and encourages. It is very important to remember that not all of our troops have returned and the bible has passages from many beliefs. So what is it hurting let people accept it as a token of respect for our missing heroes and get on with life.

Response by MSgt Landon Reynolds made Apr 15 at 2015 6:42 AM

2015-04-15T06:42:58-04:00

Get rid of Obama and the current pentagon brass instead!!!!

Response by MSgt Landon Reynolds made Apr 15 at 2015 6:44 AM

2015-04-15T06:44:30-04:00

Get rid of the boy from kenya, also known as the muslim-in-charge that currently occupies the white house, and start cleaning house ... beginning with the entire top pentagon brass!!!!

Obama and the current pentagon brass have destroyed the U.S. military!

Response by CMSgt Warren Weld made Apr 15 at 2015 10:11 AM

2015-04-15T10:11:45-04:00

Ridicules action by the local AF mgt.

Response by SrA Joe Palmer made Apr 15 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-04-15T12:33:45-04:00

Have we forgotten ritual and history. This is not the first or only effort made by the USAF to remove Christianity from the service.

Response by SGT Mark Churning made Apr 15 at 2015 12:36 PM

2015-04-15T12:36:01-04:00

Cowards.

Response by SMSgt Stephen Winner made Apr 15 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-04-15T13:02:04-04:00

This "removal" is just another example of the hatred for Christians and Jews emanating from 1600 PA ave.
It is time we stood up and said enough is enough.
Unfortunately, AF leaders today, are gutless wonders, and won't stand up to the bully.

Response by MSgt Raymond Hickey made Apr 15 at 2015 1:34 PM

2015-04-15T13:34:35-04:00

The Commander and Senior Enlisted at this base should be reprimanded, and removed from their positions. Political correctness should never be allowed to tarnish the respect and remembrance of the Comrads in Arms who are still missing. As a Viet Nam veteran and Air Force Retiree, I am very saddened to see this type of PC being allowed to exist in our Military.

Response by TSgt Melvin Robinson made Apr 15 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-04-15T13:55:23-04:00

Ignore unnamed complaints. People should grow up. God bless them all.

Response by SSgt Gary Howie made Apr 15 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-04-15T14:01:20-04:00

How about: Keep table, remove Bible?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:22 PM

2015-04-15T14:22:14-04:00

This is part of our heritage and has been for far too long to take it away for offending few. It is out of respect for our fallen and missing brothers and sisters that we do this not to make sure we are satisfying the needs of the people why walk by. It's a shame we continue to get so soft. If we want to add to it to include a there fine but to take it away is unjustly.

Response by SrA Casey Ross made Apr 15 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-04-15T14:24:49-04:00

Keep the table with the Bible, and frog march the people involved with that decision off the base and out of the USAF. They are oath breakers.

Response by TSgt Stanley Dunbar made Apr 15 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-04-15T14:37:31-04:00

The USAF if full of traditions as is the Police and the Fire Department. All events I have been to whether it was Military or Police, the POW/MIA and the missing man table have always had a bible on it. Whoever is complaining about this tradition being at an event should get a life and get over it. If the person has a problem with this and is of a different faith, then they should bring it to the event organizer so it can be address. If it is not handled to their satisfaction, just don't go to the event. I am sure there are plenty of individuals (the majority) who believe this is the right thing to do.
What I can't believe is the United State Air Force actually bowing down to the person who complained about this.

Response by MSgt James McCravy made Apr 15 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-04-15T14:46:27-04:00

I know I'm trying to apply logic to an Air Force issue (and that's never a good idea!) but, "In God we trust" and "...one nation under God..." meant something when I was active. Has our military leadership gone brain dead in my absence? Wait!! That ship sailed long ago!!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:55 PM

2015-04-15T14:55:34-04:00

I think it's a disgrace that we have to keep changing traditions for the 1% of people who disagree with what we do. This table is symbolic to remember our FALLEN and people need to understand that. We bend over backwards all the time for the 1% but will they stand with us on the battlefield and and risk their lives for their country. The answer would probably be no, but the Soldiers that table represent did just that for the 1% that complain.

Response by Amn DeWayne Paradise made Apr 15 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-04-15T15:01:08-04:00

As a Air Force veteran I would have liked to vote for two options, keep both AND ignore complaints, this table means a lot to a lot of people. Enough of this crap, no flags, no Christ statues, ect.

Response by TSgt Richard Ketterling made Apr 15 at 2015 3:21 PM

2015-04-15T15:21:43-04:00

What Spineless leaders we have running the USAF now.

Response by Col Russ Logan made Apr 15 at 2015 3:42 PM

2015-04-15T15:42:53-04:00

Time for folks to quit re-writing history to conform to the popular meme of the day. Read the accounts of the American POWs of all wars - they all cite their faith in God and in each other, and in their country as essential to their survival. Honoring that history is not, repeat not, "government endorsement of [any] religion". We have few enough traditions as a young nation and military, that we need some unknowledgeable complainers dismissing them. Honor those who sacrificed so much and endured even more by honoring their histories.

Response by PVT William Bresch made Apr 15 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-04-15T16:05:05-04:00

Try removing the Ignorance , works better.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 4:35 PM

2015-04-15T16:35:38-04:00

Sick and tired of this anti Christian anti constitution bunch of yahoo's. We fought this battle over 200 years ago.......get the hell over it

Response by TSgt John Marshall made Apr 15 at 2015 5:04 PM

2015-04-15T17:04:11-04:00

Complaints don't matter. This table is what the League of Families created. Period.

Response by Col Dave Dales made Apr 15 at 2015 5:11 PM

2015-04-15T17:11:16-04:00

Keep both. Set up mangers at Christmas. Say "Merry Christmas" and have office Christmas parties. If someone wants to organize another party to honor their religious holidays, more power to them. We started caving in to any and all special interests as a result of political correctness and now we can't express the beliefs that created this nation.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-04-15T17:19:07-04:00

I think it's stupid. I agree with Capt. Mueller on this one.

Response by MSgt Jim Wade made Apr 15 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-04-15T17:20:31-04:00

i cant believe all the liberal trying to change our military and the military leaders are letting them do it...shame on them..

Response by SFC Lynn Santosuosso made Apr 15 at 2015 5:25 PM

2015-04-15T17:25:22-04:00

Remove the Bible. The POW/MIA Table is not supposed to have ANY religious orientation; it is non-denominational. Go to any VFW and there will be nothing religious on that table.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Apr 15 at 2015 5:31 PM

2015-04-15T17:31:29-04:00

Remove the cowards who succumb to irrational complaints.

The Constitution has no provision to "protect us from religion". It only protects our right to practice or not according to our own conscience. Sadly, Americans are no longer schooled in their nations history or civic duties and responsibilities. Education has been replaced by indoctrination in our schools and the Left has rooted itself in those establishments. I must admit begrudgingly to the wisdom of their strategy to effect "change" in the youth (who are naturally inclined to rebel).

We had better put on our grown up pants and skirts and start fighting back or America as we know it is lost forever...

Response by CCMSgt Kirby Schueler made Apr 15 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-04-15T17:32:21-04:00

So the only way that we can make the minority of people happy is to completely end a solemn ceremony...a tradition that honors those that didn't come home. It's a sad day when the only book you can't display is the Bible...or that what the Bible represents threatens people to the point of exclusion. Jesus said we would be persecuted...prophetic. We should add those symbols that represent other faiths that have lost their life in defending this country.

Response by TSgt Charles Dishon made Apr 15 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-04-15T17:48:47-04:00

How about keep both and ignore the unnamed complaints. If you have a problem with something standup and be identified. Why so scared to let people know it was you that complained.
Unless of course it is someone like Mikey Winsstein, he likes to complain about things that don't even effect him. If the complaint is legitimate then stand up and be heard.
The military as far as I remember is very big on tradition. This is a tradition and I'll bet the Bible has been there the entire time the table has been set up.

Response by SSgt Everett Jones made Apr 15 at 2015 5:56 PM

2015-04-15T17:56:39-04:00

I guess I bring a different point of view to the discussion, as I am a Pagan and have been for my entire time in service. I have participated in the POW/MIA Table ceremony myself, and felt quite proud to do so. Most military members are of the Christian faith, so, when choosing an item to represent the Faith that helps each member get through the tough times during service, the Bible seems the likely candidate. I have no problems with it, and trying to include a symbol from each faith would be ludicrous, given the number of recognized religions. My vote would be to leave it alone, not only is it a representation of Faith, but also of Tradition, which also seems to be under fire.

Response by MSgt Dwyane Watson made Apr 15 at 2015 6:06 PM

2015-04-15T18:06:34-04:00

Once again the military giving in to a bunch of non serving liberals that hate everything about our military. Shame on the spineless officer who caved in.

Response by TSgt James Phillips made Apr 15 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-04-15T18:07:46-04:00

In my reading I have the POW's refer often to their faith of choice. The POW's of the Vietnam War often speak for the faith they had in their christian values. Leave the table,the bible, and the same setting. Let the individuals complaining deal with it! They are not in the situation, so they need to shut the hell up!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-04-15T18:34:30-04:00

They could just keep the table and remove the bible....why isn't this even a vote option?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-04-15T18:41:22-04:00

Keep the table and bible

Response by MSgt Mark Eberhart made Apr 15 at 2015 7:56 PM

2015-04-15T19:56:42-04:00

A sad day when you succumb to the social pressures and can't stand for the right thing!

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:08 PM

2015-04-15T20:08:56-04:00

I'm just curious as to when we became a military that would choose to remove pieces of our heritage and monuments that honor and give hope to every generation of our service members than to keep them and tell those that are complaining, we will keep these here because it serves as a reminder of what we have lost and a beacon of hope that one day we may be reunited with our loved ones. We can't please everyone with the history we have. Not every momento we have will cater to all of these religions, but they were put there as symbols and should not be taken down because someone disagrees with the fact that their is a bible on it.

Response by Amn Rick Miller made Apr 15 at 2015 8:12 PM

2015-04-15T20:12:33-04:00

It sure looks like Obama is getting his way in saying that this is NOT A CHRISTEN NATION.
Why do we the people keep bowing to all the idiots that have no clue as to what is and is not tradition in the in the different services. And to stop the boots on the ground from praying before going in to combat. the one who came up with that can go straight to HELL!!!!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-04-15T20:19:04-04:00

I abhor the current climate of political correctness. All of a sudden people care about a bible on a POW/MIA table?! How about if we poll the remaining POW's and see what THEY think of this revolting development. How many of them prayed to the very God mentioned in the bible which used to rest on that table? I am, in a word, disgusted.

Response by SSgt Eddie DeLuca made Apr 15 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-04-15T20:27:16-04:00

Make Sure it Stays as is ! ! !

and if someone does not like it they dont need to look at it or they can just leave ! ! !

But The Table stays as it is ! ! !

Sgt Eddie DeLuca

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:59 PM

2015-04-15T20:59:39-04:00

How about just remove the bible?

Response by Amn Neal Wooley made Apr 15 at 2015 8:59 PM

2015-04-15T20:59:44-04:00

The MIA/POW service members were serving for God and country. Not for Allah or some other nations belief.
Wish our military would hold fast to American beliefs and not pander to some dissenter.

Response by MSgt Leonard Ward made Apr 15 at 2015 9:04 PM

2015-04-15T21:04:04-04:00

Since the inception of our military soldiers have been guided by the Christian beliefs of our nations founders. They have given comfort to those who put their rights on the line to defend the rights of these whiners. If they have a problem with this let them leave but I see no reason to scuttle military tradition to satisfy them.

Response by TSgt Tina Steele-Kersey made Apr 15 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-04-15T21:19:42-04:00

Our county and our military was based on christain faith and it should be left alone

Response by PO1 Rob Miller made Apr 15 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-04-15T21:31:23-04:00

The united states was established as a "christian nation" but the separation of church and state has been taken to an extreme we are "one nation under God" and whether or not you believe in christian ideals the fact that a bible was included in a POW-MIA table should not remove the appropriate reason for the memorial.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 9:35 PM

2015-04-15T21:35:42-04:00

Also where is the option for "Remove the Bible"?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 9:42 PM

2015-04-15T21:42:26-04:00

Keep taking away everything this country was built on. The way the military is going, might as well start hiring robots. We're about there anyway.

Response by SSgt John McPherson made Apr 15 at 2015 9:46 PM

2015-04-15T21:46:54-04:00

If this Table has been there for years, leave it there. Would not have a problem with placing other Religious books there also. Our National Cemetery has Veterans of all faiths Interned there.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 10:18 PM

2015-04-15T22:18:00-04:00

Ignore unnamed complaints and keep both

As a follower of Christ and a believer in the Bible, I suggest we stop neglecting what this country was founded on and stop letting the opinions of others dictate what is best for this country and military. I know separation of church and state but honestly how's the state without the church. We live in a culture today where everyone wants to be accepted and politically correct. People are afraid to say what they believe because they are worried about who will be offended. Now in this particular case, a no name somebody said they were offended by the Bible being on the table. Well it's funny how one person says something and then all of sudden we bend over backwards to accommodate this individual. If you don't like it, SO WHAT!!! This is the way it has been done for a while now, get over it. Stop crying "I'm offended " because I choose to believe in Jesus Christ and you don't. If you don't believe that's perfectly fine with me. I will not dictate how you want to live your life so don't try to dictate mine. If you don't like the sequence of events during the ceremony, do not attend the ceremony. Isn't it ironic, how someone who doesn't believe in the Bible believe we should respect their decision not to believe but they do not respect our decision to believe? Not try to throw Christianity in anyone face just asking respect our decision as you want your decision to be respected.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 10:31 PM

2015-04-15T22:31:43-04:00

Also, this "news" story is a year old.

Response by LTC Richard Wasserman made Apr 15 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-04-15T22:37:52-04:00

PC BS

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 10:53 PM

2015-04-15T22:53:13-04:00

It's pretty jacked up that you didn't include the obvious choice for people to choose: Keep the table, remove the bible. Why did you not include that as a choice in your poll?

Response by SGT Neil Chandler made Apr 15 at 2015 10:55 PM

2015-04-15T22:55:02-04:00

This is very sad, I agree with Capt Mueller. This PC bs is gettin out of hand. This country was based on God and Christianity. They took Christ out of our schools and now this...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 11:32 PM

2015-04-15T23:32:48-04:00

I'm just going to leave this right here.

AFPAM 34-1202 14.12.3.1

A round table, a w
hite table cloth, six chairs, book of faith (optional), red rose
displayed in vase, red ribbon, slice of lemon on a bread plate with a pinch of salt, place
setting at an open table, and (6) wine glasses.

Response by MSgt David SanMarco made Apr 15 at 2015 11:33 PM

2015-04-15T23:33:42-04:00

Remove the bible but keep the table.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 11:59 PM

2015-04-15T23:59:07-04:00

We really shouldn't cave in to other people's personal views. Instead we should write them a hurt feelings report.

Response by SSG Donald Mceuen made Apr 16 at 2015 12:49 AM

2015-04-16T00:49:32-04:00

I am sorry but one unnamed letter is going to make them remove the table thats sorry as hell.
I just might think they wanted to remove it for there own reason.
Well what ever i feel these indivduals need to stop and let our country grow.

Response by SSgt Elie Stowe made Apr 16 at 2015 2:45 AM

2015-04-16T02:45:37-04:00

Please. Can we stop with the one-sidedness of having just one holy book? If you're going to have any, and I don't believe we should, we should have them all.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Apr 16 at 2015 2:55 AM

2015-04-16T02:55:47-04:00

Short pithy comment

"BS complaint bungled by jackasses."

I'm all for every option except the first one.

Response by AB Charles Norris made Apr 16 at 2015 8:15 AM

2015-04-16T08:15:15-04:00

Keep it. I am getting sick and tired of PC minorities changing the majority because they get offended. Nobody bothers when the majority gets offended. We have to accept them but they can change our ways when they get their feelings hurt. It's a load of crap. I'm all for freedoms and religious views. That's why this country is a great place...or was.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Apr 16 at 2015 8:35 AM

2015-04-16T08:35:05-04:00

Religion is apart of most of the nation. We have a very small segment of the population that is atheist or Muslim. We claim our nation is a Democracy let's exercise it. Democracy is Majority rule. Not Minority rule. Put the table back. Tell liberal thinking bastard to F-off. No offense intended.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-04-16T09:14:19-04:00

Very Disappointing. Hurts my heart!

Response by TSgt Eric Clark made Apr 16 at 2015 10:35 AM

2015-04-16T10:35:35-04:00

I'm sick and tired of 3-5% of the population demanding change and effecting the other 95+%. It is a tradition of honoring and remembering them. The upper chain needs to take this into account.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Apr 16 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-04-16T10:44:39-04:00

That is a tradition that should never change it is for the fallen not who wants to look at it. Things like this are bigger than the individual.

Response by SSgt Mark Hanlon made Apr 16 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-04-16T11:11:34-04:00

Both have a place in our hearts. Why does everything these days have to be removed so that the 1% feels like they have accomplished something to degrade the 99% majority. Majority rules are still in effect now put that table and bible back where they belong.

Response by SSgt John McKee made Apr 16 at 2015 11:30 AM

2015-04-16T11:30:22-04:00

62% feel the way I do, that's good. I am wondering who made the decision to remove the table.

Response by PO2 Jim Bragg made Apr 16 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-04-16T11:51:03-04:00

What amazes me is that we have more combat veterans now than we have had since the Vietnam War yet the powers to be are trying to get away from the worshipping of God, or at least what others call the Christian God in favor of other religions. Now more than ever we should return to our faith. I don't know of any Veterans who have been under fire and didn't pray or thought that living or dying is just a matter of the odds so they did not worry. This is especially so when you are badly hurt and believe that your life was saved for a reason.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 12:38 PM

2015-04-16T12:38:46-04:00

Sorry if it offends people, but there are just some traditional things that almost become sacred themselves. Leave the POW/MIA table alone. I'm not going to force a religion on someone on a submarine, but at the same time I'm going to provide opportunities for anyone who wants to worship to do so in whatever manner they choose. In this case, we are not forcing a religion on people; we are providing something that has context of honoring those who have suffered.

Now if someone who served 6 years in the Hanoi Hilton has an objection to a bible being on a POW/MIA table, then I will listen to him with respect and deference.

Response by Lt Col Keith Harrington made Apr 16 at 2015 1:12 PM

2015-04-16T13:12:55-04:00

The Military needs to stop groveling at the feet of political correctness. The trend towards freedom FROM religion is very disturbing. As members of the Military we are sworn to uphold and defend the constitution from all enemies - foreign and domestic. I have seen very few members of the military willing to stand up and defend against the domestic enemies we have that want to negate the first amendment right to freedom OF religion.

Response by SSG Thomas Brousseau made Apr 16 at 2015 2:35 PM

2015-04-16T14:35:06-04:00

Unconscionable! Military history and tradition trumps this poor action.

Response by 1stSgt Curt Fick made Apr 16 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-04-16T16:25:39-04:00

Faith in God, our Country, our Corps, and our fellow serviceman is what pulled many POW's through. Leave it! C Fick, MSGT, USMC Retired

Response by MSgt Denise Smith made Apr 16 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-04-16T17:24:24-04:00

The idea that a single complaint caused this much reaction is the height of foolishness. If an individual does not have the conviction to identify him/herself in the complaint than they are simply being contrary. I have yet to see any part of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that provides the right to not be offended. What was the real complaint? It appears the complainer had no concept regarding the purpose of the POW/MIA table or maybe their real problem was with the table itself the bible just gave them a handy scapegoat they could use because the DoD has become overly concerned with "offending someone". I am offended every time they put forth in suicide prevention training that owning firearms is an risk factor for suicide. I am offended every time they bend over for the complaints about the Christian religion but do nothing regarding the flagrant hostility by Muslim religious leaders within the U.S. towards other religions. A bible on a table is no more "hostile" than any other book on a table.

Response by MSgt John Carter made Apr 16 at 2015 5:36 PM

2015-04-16T17:36:12-04:00

I think this is a complete travesty and that table and bible should be put back! That table, and the places set at it, are a silent promise to all of us that we will be remembered! We will never be forgotten! Apparently that promise should now be rephrased: "You will never be forgotten--unless somebody whines and bitches about it. Then we'll forget you and shove you under the rug."

What truly amazes me is the leadership of this country being puzzled by the shrinking numbers of enlistments and career military professionals. You treat us like crap, publicize it, and then wonder why more people don't want to join?

Response by SSgt James Stanley made Apr 16 at 2015 7:03 PM

2015-04-16T19:03:02-04:00

Return the table with the Bible as a free expression of religion according to the First Amendment. In my opinion, anyone in America who is offended by the Bible should consider another country where Bibles aren't allowed.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 7:48 PM

2015-04-16T19:48:21-04:00

I have set up a couple of POW tables for events over the years but I never came across instructions to include any religious symbols. I personally wouldn't mind a bible on the table, nor would I mind the representation of other major religions on it as well. But if this is a matter of tradition, which all of our customs and courtesies stem from, then we should not diverge from that tradition.

Response by Capt Tim Leno made Apr 16 at 2015 9:04 PM

2015-04-16T21:04:07-04:00

Amazing...pretty soon they'll take away prayers at ceremony. Without God, our "great" nation will be defeated. In GOD we trust.

Response by TSgt Tina Steele-Kersey made Apr 17 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-04-17T00:09:20-04:00

Keep both it's a tradition. Our county is based on the Christian faith.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 6:18 AM

2015-04-17T06:18:10-04:00

Really REALLY is this the fight is this the fight they are talking about messing with the POW/MIA table ok ok. So when that one who cares breaks those front lines to put back traditions it would be expected of the MAN to bestow a wrath of onership over said individual i see it.

Response by Maj Cathie Malachowsky made Apr 17 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-04-17T08:49:47-04:00

The military needs to stop conforming to PC behaviors. If we hadn't been doing it right for the last 300 years then maybe we should change, but we are the most successful military and country in history, so stop already with the Christian bashing, gay promotion, apology tours and start being true to your oath and Country. One Nation under God.....

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 9:04 AM

2015-04-17T09:04:13-04:00

Firstly, the voting options arent fair. Keeping the table but not the bible should be an option..

Secondly, the POW/MIA symbol isn't about religion. Many different religions fight for and support the armed forces. Simply removing the bible from the rest of the table would do nothing to disregard or disrespect what the table means. Put the table back, but don't put the bible on it..

Response by MSgt Hugh Holland made Apr 17 at 2015 10:49 AM

2015-04-17T10:49:37-04:00

shouldn't one of the choices be "remove the bible only"?

Response by MSgt Hugh Holland made Apr 17 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-04-17T11:11:50-04:00

Tradition is what the majority calls it when they want everything to stay the same and never change because it benefits them

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-04-17T11:51:35-04:00

Our nation was based on Judea-christian principles. To deny that, is to circumvent our history.

Response by A1C Suzanne Klenc made Apr 17 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-04-17T12:16:50-04:00

I think there should be another voting option on this survey! The Missing man table is important, and a strong symbol to those who have, do, and will serve that no one is forgotten. I don't think that any religious item should be on the table however, because not all who are represented by that empty chair were religious, or of one faith. The idea is to honor ALL who have been lost, not just some.

Response by A1C David Johnson made Apr 17 at 2015 1:23 PM

2015-04-17T13:23:57-04:00

Keep both and remind muslims that this is America and who sought who for religious freedom? Need I say more

Response by MSgt Ray Hutchins made Apr 17 at 2015 2:56 PM

2015-04-17T14:56:08-04:00

Why isn't there a response to just remove the bible? There should be no religious symbols at all on the table. To assume that all POW/MIAs are Christian dishonours their sacrifices.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 2:57 PM

2015-04-17T14:57:15-04:00

Keep both....the US is 78% Christian according to a census; aren't the personnel making these decisions infringing on the rights?

Response by SSG Paul Lanciault made Apr 17 at 2015 5:36 PM

2015-04-17T17:36:17-04:00

I find it offensive that if any faith, other than a Christians, is challenged, or mentioned your a hater. But turn the tables and the Constitution is on their side and we have to be understanding and sensitive. I'm open to allowing their book to be there, as long as the book I want can be there as well. We all serve this nation. But don't take The freedom of Christian people away.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Apr 17 at 2015 6:23 PM

2015-04-17T18:23:54-04:00

I'm an atheist and even I think this is petty... just as Christians can go too far on pushing their religious views so can atheists. There's no reason to remove it, maybe adding one or two other texts from other religions might be a good idea, but really, I just can't see how this bothers people.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 6:31 PM

2015-04-17T18:31:54-04:00

Other. In twelve years of service, I have never attended a service that included the bible. I don't think that remembrance of the missing/POW needs to include religious paraphernalia.
I think ascribing a particular religious belief to our missing detracts from the recognition of their sacrifice.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Apr 17 at 2015 8:35 PM

2015-04-17T20:35:03-04:00

Personally, I'm not sold by the arguments on removing it nor by those who profess its a crime to have it there or to take it off. Just don't see it as a item to get upset about.

I'm quite amazed at the response on this subject. WOW! Top of the list in discussed questions. Passion is ruling here. But, then lol, religion has always been passionate.

I'm part Native American. When we go to a grave site, on the Res, we always leave something behind. A coin, flower, bible, coke bottle, empty beer can, etc. Almost anything can be left. Getting upset at a bible is like being upset at a "token" of ones "loss".

You could walk by and leave a "Sgt" rank pin and it wouldn't bother me at all. I would consider it a token of your respect. So, for a Christian to drop off a bible, or a Native American to drop off a dream catcher isn't disrespectful, its respectful for that person. I agree that the table must be "policed", and that if the original table had a bible on it...then they all should. If the original didn't have a bible, and one is put there, remove it at the end of the day.

At the Vietnam Wall, people drop off all kinds of things....certainly the table isn't anymore revered then the wall. Each night the crew picks up those things and removes them. Such a system should be a part of every table or shrine on any base / post, etc. Its simply respectful. Tradition is tradition.

When I attend PGR (Patriot Guard) missions, they always pray before it starts, asking God to take care of the survivors, to help the fallen, and to protect the riders as they ride in accompaniment. I see no harm in their doing that. I respectfully remove my hat and in respect for their beliefs bow my head. Showing respect, isn't creating new "laws" in this case, its recognizing our roots and respect the sacrifices that have been made.

I believe that the deaths in the Revolutionary War were from a people mostly Christian, those in the Civil War were from a people mostly Christian. So, allowing the traditions established by those who sacrificed for them is only respectful.

Forcing down the throats of non-Christians NEW traditions is disrespectful. And that I would fight against any day.

Response by MSgt Michael Vassallo made Apr 17 at 2015 9:20 PM

2015-04-17T21:20:01-04:00

First issue is. It is part of our tradition. Second the Bible may be the basis for Christianity but not just that. The Bible is part of our
Founding fathers doctrine. Not just for Christianity but it is in the purest sense one of the few documents that show how we should establish our values and Love our neighbors serve one another etc. Various parts of the bible are quotes in Islam, Judaism, even the Dali Lana quotes it. I know many non believers in Christa ity that use the bible for motivation and insight. In its purist sense it encompasses the America we all served to protect. Just because some manmade doctrine uses it for a religion that someone disagrees with is irrelevant. Taking that away is taking away part of America and all who served, died,, were POW' s or MIS did it for nothing and we all lost. Whoever is that narrow minded to think it offensive does not understand our history, our culture and does not deserve to wear the uniform of a US Serviceman (or woman).

Response by MCPO John Babcock made Apr 17 at 2015 10:18 PM

2015-04-17T22:18:11-04:00

Our country was founded on Cristian values and I swore to God that I would perform my duties. There is no reason to remove that Bible other than to appease a very small minority (most of whom aren't in the service).

Response by CPL Matthew Kinser made Apr 17 at 2015 10:44 PM

2015-04-17T22:44:29-04:00

just get rid of the bible

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-04-17T23:26:02-04:00

Sounds like another reason someone would make fun of the Air Force. Spineless and moving over for the one instead of the majority. And yet they said they were as tough as Marines psh.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 1:20 AM

2015-04-18T01:20:28-04:00

Im still heated over this. The ones enjoying there peice and quite freedom and those who are still out there not Broughton home yet or still caged or imprisoned and look what we did i am ashamed to call myself a battle buddy if service members had anything to do with taking of the table how could you answer to an alive POW/MIA servivor and give them a good reasion that is keeping you up at nite that the table needs to go. Tattoos and POW/MIA tables really whoo look out for these guys just saying i have allot and i mean allot of respect for those tables it hurts to walk near them but someone is just going to up and take them away that to me persionally is disrespectful in the highest level that is leaving a fallen comrad im done.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Apr 18 at 2015 2:06 AM

2015-04-18T02:06:07-04:00

The FITREP of the individual who decided to remove this display on the basis of an anonymous complaint should reflect a lack of moral fiber.
Any complaint policy should include the statement that anonymous complaints will not be considered or acted upon. Anonymous complaints are the act of those without the strength of their convictions. A signed complaint would have allowed the individuals concerns to be addressed privately. If they wanted another text to be added that could have been considered. If they objected to the Bible being there, they could have been advised that the Bible represented faith in general, not just Christian faith.
Our POW/MIA's endured far more than hurt feelings for our sake. They deserve to be stood up for and respected. I am embarrassed and ashamed that this could happen.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 18 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-04-18T08:09:49-04:00

If the Koran and the Satanic scrolls were on it who cares, its about honoring our SMs. If a bible on the table offends someone that much then just add a lot of ketchup to that personal $hit sandwich, bite down and swallow hard!

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Apr 18 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-04-18T10:01:52-04:00

It doesn't matter God is still the living God speaking to us if we take time to listen.

Response by CPO John Griffin made Apr 18 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-04-18T13:27:35-04:00

Where is the option to "keep the table but remove the bible"?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 2:50 PM

2015-04-18T14:50:22-04:00

I personally feel a little hurt that freedom of religion is sometimes misguided into almost being like suppression of christianity. I fully understand giving other religions a voice, but does that mean taking away ours in certain situations.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Apr 18 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-04-18T14:59:52-04:00

As I've gotten older I've realized that I'm always going to offend someone for something...

If I offend someone while doing something normal and/or enjoyable (as opposed to just being oblivious or ornery) I've come to enjoy their offense.

We've become a country that gives power to busy-bodies, and I for one feel it is my patriotic duty to put them back in their place.

Response by SGT Michael Touchet made Apr 18 at 2015 5:33 PM

2015-04-18T17:33:39-04:00

Its remarkable to me that the Holy Bible could be under such ridiculous scrutiny, and our leaders would cave to this made up outrage. First, how is it possible for the Holy Bible to offend those whom choose not to believe? Think about that for a moment, if these who pretend to be so offended about what they do not even believe in is beyond idiotic. When Christians say prayers for others, those prayers are not intended as hate; rather they are said out of love and offer healing for those left behind to morn the loss of a loved one. So then I ask, where is any hate or discrimination created by the Bible that these individuals rely on to have it removed? The short answer is, it does not exist, it is merely hate on their part to force their will or beliefs on others. If you don't believe, then that is your right not to; but you do not have the right to force others to practice their beliefs in a closet, just as it is not the right of those who do believe to force anyone else to practice their beliefs in private.

The bottom line it is every Americans right to believe as you will, it is not your right to force your beliefs on anyone else. If the Bible is there, you have no obligation to open it, read it or believe in it, simply all that is asked of you is to be tolerant of it, just as we are tolerant of you.

Response by SGM Robin Johnson made Apr 18 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-04-18T18:41:55-04:00

You didn't have my option. Keep the table without the Bible. I have narrated ceremonies and events for about 25 years (until my retirement) and the fallen comrade table and POW/MIA table narratives I have do not have reference to a Bible in them. They are still solemn and reverent of the military service and sacrifice being honored, which is the point of the ceremony. The ceremony is NOT religious in nature, it is of MILITARY significance. Of course, they are from Army ceremonies and the USAF ceremonies are notoriously more prone to including Christian religious references in ceremonies and military events.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Apr 18 at 2015 7:00 PM

2015-04-18T19:00:25-04:00

I would say that the protests are mainly the problem. Protests to stop and protests to start. If there were no problems with the items, or behavior, or traditions, then we would not be having this discussion. Obviously, passion rules, in this case. So, I'm passing by the table and see the object....omg...its a book, its a bible. Well, that has to be removed and wouldn't it be fun to force them to remove it. Why they might just remove the whole table. What fun.... Now that is the kind of childish act of a non-believer or believer just wanting attention. Probably told everyone about how successful they were. Childish actions. Removing the table was another Childish action. These are petty.

I have said in this discussion before, leave the table, if the "tradition" was to have a bible there, leave the bible. If it was not in the tradition, at the end of the day, remove the bible. If something is left in disrespect, remove it immediately. Someone must police that. If something was left nontraditional, then it might be a Native American leaving a token "their method of respect". So, common sense is the rule of the day. Unfortunately, that isn't the case here. I agree that the bible isn't a threat to anyone, its an object of respect to those POW/MIA. The subject should have been addressed to the legal department, but the all objects should have stayed until a determination came down. If that determination was to remove the table....well...that was simply a wrong decision. We don't cash careers for small wrong decisions. Nor should we emotionally respond to small decisions. Wait until the final determination is complete and react to that. We do not have that even yet, even though this is a year old. UPDATE: As you can see it looks like the table is back, but the bible is missing. I've written to the base PA and expect to hear from them soon.

Response by SSG Warren Hall made Apr 18 at 2015 7:24 PM

2015-04-18T19:24:05-04:00

I personally believe that this is BS. The military was founded on the "In God We Trust" mentality. I feel that we are catering to the 1% of the "Non Believers" or Islamic Radicals who want to take God out of the Picture completely.

Response by A1C Sherry Canzano made Apr 19 at 2015 7:28 AM

2015-04-19T07:28:01-04:00

Absolutely ridiculous!

Response by MSgt Michael Hunthrop made Apr 19 at 2015 10:28 AM

2015-04-19T10:28:17-04:00

My history tells me that our forefathers created this country of OURS because there religious beliefs where being oppressed by government. So here we are again! The table is not about religion but about our missing comrades who haven't returned and that by the faith of God or whatever name you call him that symbol shows they will never be forgotten. Leave book as our commitment to them that we will never forget!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 4:41 PM

2015-04-19T16:41:56-04:00

It's about tradition and remembering the brothers and sisters in arms that have been lost, not about religious POlitical Correctedness. More and more of our heritage and traditions are going away that the U.S. and the military will be a collected group of non-speakers for fear of offending someone.

I got an idea, instead of a bible, why don't we place religious charms (like the ones our chaplains wear on their collars) onto the table cloth. Because one of the guys on this site made a true comment: No POW survived their time by holding onto their belief of nothing.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 5:00 PM

2015-04-19T17:00:40-04:00

I am all for religious freedom. And especially the freedom to NOT have to be religious. I, myself, am a practicing Christian. Even so, I get weary when chaplains do mass prayers at mandatory events for my unit. I think to myself, "Is this pressuring those who don't want to bow their heads to 'pray' to a God they don't believe in? And what if they don't bow? Will leaders and peers who are religious judge them? Or will they FEEL like they will be treated differently if they choose not to 'pretend' to pray?". I don't think that is something people should be subjected to. Even though I personally like the time to pray, and like hearing the chaplain's words.
Having this Bible on the POW/MIA Table is not the same though. We should still be allowed to have religion present in the military and the government. If we say that all mention and actions and affiliation with religion must be removed or banned, to me, that is promoting the religion of Atheism. How is that any different than promoting any other belief system? The separation of Church and State, is meant only to prevent the government from forcing people to adhere to or practice particular religious ideals, or from promoting one religion over another. Mind you, the "In God We Trust" controversy does flirt with promoting monotheistic religions over Atheism and non-theistic belief systems, so I can't really argue too much about that one, but PERSONALLY, I like it. But that's just because it favors my preferences, and I'll admit that. This Bible isn't the same thing though, in my opinion. In this context, it is simply an artifact displayed for traditional and heritage purposes, to invoke a feeling of spiritual strength and to represent the inspiration of faith in one's ability to stay strong and persevere by keeping true to their values and identity, while looking outside themselves to pull strength. It demonstrates the comforting notion that they are still loved, and cared for, and that there is someone/something still fighting for them (even our Nation), to bring them home.
I am not saying we should be a theocracy, but the younger generations (I'm 26) need to stop destroying the foundation of what has made our country so strong. Many people, my age and younger, have no pride in our country, our flag, or anything that America has long stood for. If all great nations are doomed to fall, I fear this will be exactly our undoing. Progress is great, but we need to stay true to our heritage, and our moral values as a Nation, if we are going to make it through another 200 years.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-04-19T18:22:21-04:00

Why is it everytime someone complains about a bible someone jumps to remove it, but when Christians are being killed for following it nobody does anything?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-04-19T18:25:44-04:00

That's the Air Force for you. When the Services start bowing to liberalism, we will be a doomed nation. Is the Air Force also going to remove currency from the base because "In God we Trust" offends atheists? The Air Force is always way out in front of the other Services in bowing down to interest groups. They bowed down to a Wiccan LtCol and created a paid holiday for her quite a few years back. Since when does the Air Force have the right to create federal holidays?

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 6:46 PM

2015-04-19T18:46:48-04:00

I think its getting to a point where no one will be allowed to express their religious faith because of all the political correctness and offended whiners crying about being left out. I would surmise to say that anyone that spent any time as a POW/MIA had probably prayed and asked God for help to survive their ordeal, whether they were religious or not. For these people to remove that table because of a Bible being on it they should grow up, grow a pair and go spew their garbage somewhere else!

Response by 2LT David Phillips made Apr 21 at 2015 12:00 PM

2015-04-21T12:00:22-04:00

The military chain of command has two obligations to the American People. 1) Keep their son's and daughters trained and equipped to perform the missions our country needs them to perform. 2) Ensure each soldier, sailor, airman and marine is mentally fit and physically capable to perform those missions. It is not their job to police every aspect of life, outside of those parameters. If the CIC of the U.S. Armed forces is demanding that those officers (who swore an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution) treat it as lightly or flagrantly violate it as deftly as he does, then it is the solemn duty of those officers to obey the highest law of the land. If the men and women who are honoring their fallen and missing in action, place a Bible, on their MIA table, they are exercising their 1st Amendment right to freedom of expression and religion, both of which do not endanger the honor of the military, national security, or their willingness to fight. If you read the biography of Alivin C. York, this "religious book" has a distinguished place in our military. If a fallen comrade, regardless of religion, has a brother or sister in arms who wants to place on a table, something precious to them as a memorial, it is not the duty or the obligation of some Air Force office of special thought police, to over-shadow that expression with childish notions of religious neutrality. Real men who bleed and suffer on the battle field deserve better than this type of pettiness.

Response by SSgt Amber Brouillard made Apr 21 at 2015 2:20 PM

2015-04-21T14:20:23-04:00

Why are we not allowed to have our own customs and beliefs anymore? This is a custom- stop catering to the minority in this country. Those who stand with us, speak up. Now is not the time to stay silent!

Response by PO2 Abraham Russo made Apr 21 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-04-21T16:24:51-04:00

that is a time honored tradition and i believe P.O.W/MIA persons are praying right now to find their loved ones and get home safe, prayers and the belief that help is on the way saves lives, and more importantly in the end if no help comes you still are not alone..never a bad thing for whichever faith you decide in.

Response by LTC Christopher "Kit" Patterson made Apr 22 at 2015 8:24 AM

2015-04-22T08:24:42-04:00

This is a Judeo Christian nation; not a Judeo Christian, atheist nation-put the table back with all its original contents. IF you have a problem with it, be prepared to explain to God.

Response by Capt Christian D. Orr made Apr 22 at 2015 3:28 PM

2015-04-22T15:28:50-04:00

Disgusting pandering to the Political Correctness Thought Police--to hell with those goons!

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-04-29T13:45:48-04:00

Another example of the Air Forces intolerance. Shameful.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-04-30T13:29:27-04:00

I am not religious at all and I can say having a Bible on the table in no way bothers or offends me. That being said, The POW/MIA table is not there for the patrons of the dining facility, it is for the POWs/MIAs and their families. It is to remember them and never forget that they have endured the worst of what our job as a service member entails.

I say ignore the complaints and remind everyone the reason why that table is there.

BLUF: Unless POWs/MIAs are complaining (which I am pretty certain was not the case), leave it there.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:22 AM

2015-05-06T03:22:58-04:00

What will be next? Remove the Chapels on installations? Then the chaplains? If you are offended avoid it or don't look at!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 12:57 PM

2015-05-06T12:57:55-04:00

I say keep them, even though I don't believe in Christianity.

Some folks need their religion... For strength, comfort, meaning, hope and a way to structure their lives. I want you to have your religion and be spiritually strong, along with everyone else who choose their religious belief.

It would be nice to add other books of religion because the military respects people's personal rights to their religious or non religious preference.

With that being said, regardless of what religious affiliation or non religion, don't press your beliefs upon others/unwanted preaching. If you want to share your religion, that's okay. Take it with a grain of salt that not everyone has the same beliefs.

Response by TSgt Tina Steele-Kersey made May 6 at 2015 1:46 PM

2015-05-06T13:46:55-04:00

Our foundation should never be taken for granite! This is what holds us together.
If someone doesn't like it they do not belong in the service of our country. Don't like
it then LEAVE...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-05-07T19:20:36-04:00

Why is simply removing the bible not an option?

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made May 8 at 2015 12:44 PM

2015-05-08T12:44:30-04:00

It is tradition and the bible is a representation of keeping ones faith. Instead of removing the bible I would have asked the offended party what was missing or if there was an alternative. There are always more options.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 13 at 2015 4:44 PM

2015-05-13T16:44:39-04:00

Remove the complaint individual.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made May 14 at 2015 7:41 PM

2015-05-14T19:41:35-04:00

Keep both it does not disrespect anything

Response by PO1 Thomas Herms made May 14 at 2015 7:46 PM

2015-05-14T19:46:46-04:00

The predominate makeup of the early settlers of our nation were Christians seeking freedom of religion, but from a stroll through our national cemetaries, it is clear that we are now a nation of many religions, as well as, those with no religious faith at all.

Response by SGT Lawrence Corser made May 30 at 2015 4:44 PM

2015-05-30T16:44:25-04:00

take the bible out put on a picture of some of the people lost and rotate it

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 8:05 AM

2015-06-06T08:05:51-04:00

I am not an overly religious, bible thumping meat head. Yet I understand the symbology behind the Bible on the table. It is a symbol of faith. There is not a table big enough to accept all faiths but the Bible is the closest to the generic ideology of the American idea of faith.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Jun 6 at 2015 8:07 AM

2015-06-06T08:07:37-04:00

Every time you see ir hear about something similar is all political correctness run amok, ever since social media and 9/11 no one wants to offend the Muslims

Response by SSgt Sean Peters made Jun 7 at 2015 2:55 PM

2015-06-07T14:55:50-04:00

No Buueno.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jun 8 at 2015 2:20 PM

2015-06-08T14:20:02-04:00

Return the bible to the table and believe in what this country was founded on. Get a spine.

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Jun 15 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-06-15T10:43:26-04:00

I feel they can bite me!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2015 4:56 PM

2015-07-20T16:56:24-04:00

We have become too politically correct for our own good. I am not sure why we have become a society where we have to take everyone's feelings into consideration. I am not condoning nor saying that we should disregard and totally ignore people's feelings, beliefs, and thoughts, but common sense should start dictating in some of these decisions. I have been asked how I would feel if it was Satan's bible instead of the Bible in other situations. I am from the train of thought and upbringing that if you didn't like something you didn't do it, look at it, ignore it, and press on. The Bible is a small piece of what this table represents. If a person or group didn't like the Bible they could simply look at the rest of the table and remember this table is for the POW/MIA. Rant over. No, I am not a closed minded white conservative male, but I am a red blooded American that believes in common sense.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 20 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-07-20T21:17:16-04:00

This is disrespectful to our MIA troops. This is nonsense. This PC garbage must stop. We can't be afraid to offend a few and end up offending the many!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 2:08 AM

2015-07-22T02:08:31-04:00

Keep both but switch the bible out with different religious books occasionally. Every soldier does not share the same faith (I'm one of the very rare hindu's in the army) and every soldier deserves to have their faith represented.

Response by MSgt Roger Hoyle made Jul 31 at 2015 7:54 PM

2015-07-31T19:54:40-04:00

The WH is doing a great job of distroying the American way of life. Why should they stop over the POW/MIA table.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Jul 31 at 2015 11:58 PM

2015-07-31T23:58:17-04:00

where is the freedom in that?

Response by SMSgt Thomas V. made Aug 7 at 2015 8:52 AM

2015-08-07T08:52:25-04:00

AIR FORCE PAMPHLET 34-1202, dictates the conduct of the POW/MIA ceremony and the Bible is "Optional". The current "political correctness" atmosphere only can offend or disparage Christians, whom are the majority. We have to walk on eggshells for our Muslim and Atheists brothers and sisters. Our political "Leaders" in DC want everything and everyone to be "vanilla". Lot is shameful!!!!

Response by MSgt James Bowers made Aug 20 at 2015 9:49 AM

2015-08-20T09:49:37-04:00

Keep both where they are and if someone doesn't like it let them go elsewhere!

Response by PV2 Scott Goodpasture made Oct 4 at 2015 2:40 PM

2015-10-04T14:40:29-04:00

Political correctness belongs in the trash. It is contrite to the first amendment in the bill of rights of The Constitution of of the United States. Which by the way we all swore to protect

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 2:45 PM

2015-10-04T14:45:32-04:00

Just remove the Bible by itself, leave the rest of the table.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:00 PM

2015-10-04T17:00:40-04:00

I've been a part of this ceremony and I don't recall a bible being there, but I certainly don't see a problem with it...especially if there is no regulation governing the setup of the table. People need to stop acting like showing ones religion or beliefs takes away from theirs. This PC stuff is out of control!

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Nov 7 at 2015 1:31 AM

2015-11-07T01:31:18-05:00

The script for the Missing Man Table states: "The Bible represents the strength gained through faith to sustain us and those lost from our country, founded as one nation under God." End of conversation.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-11-13T14:44:05-05:00

I do not understand why people who do not believe in the Bible want Christians to remove anything that pertains to the Bible and God. Me praying should not offend anyone. I could have easily said that the fact that you did not believe in the Bible and your acts of unbelief violates my rights. I am better than that and I think we all should live free and be able to practice whatever religion we belong to. I think prayer should be said anywhere including schools and public functions. If you do not believe in that, you have the right not to join. We can also make sure all religions are represented in schools and public functions. Like in Ghana, prayers are said by Christians, Muslims and heathens at public functions and in schools by the various leaders of those religions.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 13 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-11-13T15:29:51-05:00

Where does it end? Keep both. POW's have stated that their belief in the bible and being able to quote it form memory was a sustaining feature that kept them alive and gave them hope. I would like to thank that as well for MIA's as most, probably have log since past us but in their final days still had the hope that is contained in the Bible. If it offends you, move on. It is a statement of faith hat everyone has heard of or used in their life. Amazing how many people say they don't read to it or have the faith but scream out for help from God when they were in danger. Keep both and remind folks about how the little trivial things here can be a significant thing to keep you alive when you are in their shoes.

Response by Amn Allen Burks made Jun 21 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-06-21T19:14:22-04:00

Those who chose to remove it need to be removed from the United States of America!!! We are a country of Christianity and protectors of the innocent and the weak!!! We will always stand with the almighty God and Jesus the Christ!!! We will always fight for Catholics and also Ye Ne Me Leers!!! We will die in the line of duty if that's what it takes and of death calls our name!!! We are the United Kingdom the 2.

Response by PFC Pamala (Hall) Foster made Sep 26 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-09-26T14:27:30-04:00

I am hurt by this-our nation was founded on CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. When I took my oath of enlistment I said SO HELP ME GOD and went to Basic; YOU joined the military NOT the other way around so just stop and breath before acting out, OK?????

Response by MSgt David SanMarco made Sep 29 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-09-29T13:13:15-04:00

I am retired Air Force and formally at Patrick AFB, I am Jewish and have no issue with them removing the bible and making it non specific to any one religion.

Response by SrA Jenn Peter made Nov 29 at 2016 8:39 AM

2016-11-29T08:39:51-05:00

Keep both! I am sick of PC-ing everything to death! It is disgusting to REMOVE a table because a Bible is laying on it! If it was any other religious book, we would not even be having this conversation! Shame on those who made this decision!

Response by 2LT David Phillips made Dec 8 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-12-08T12:11:23-05:00

What's next? Arlington cemetery? The POW/MIA table is a memorial for the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who were lost and unaccounted for. It is to honor them, remember them, pay homage to THEM! If those who are healthy, protected, safe, and free to live and breath want something different because the "Bible" offends them, let them make their own memorial. See which one has more meaning to the families and friends who lost their loved ones, friends and fellows. Don't let people force their sensitivities on existing traditions, just because they are are too cheap or lazy to build a memorial of their own.

Response by SGT James Colwell made Dec 8 at 2016 1:01 PM

2016-12-08T13:01:50-05:00

Keep the table and the Bible.

Response by CPL William Anderson made Dec 15 at 2016 1:35 PM

2016-12-15T13:35:40-05:00

One thing that I never understood was how an "Atheist" could be offended by any 'PEACEFUL' religion. I am a skeptic of all religion, at best, so I find it all comical. I think that religion, if peaceful, keeps many people in check to keep doing the right things, therefore I support people following their own peaceful beliefs. I do however believe in the traditions of The United States, at least the positive ones, and this is one of those. Pay homage to those that fought next to us and lost their lives or their freedom as a POW. If some people feel better having other religious books on the table, then great. However at some point the religious items will consume all of the meaning, and space, that the table stands for. The lost soldiers, marines, and sailors should be the focus of the table and not any religion. After all with over 4,200 religions in the world we are going to need a big ass table.

Reference: https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-religions-world-8f3af083e8592895

How many religions are there in the world?

As of 2014, there are an estimated 4,200 different religions in the world, and these can be categorized into several main religions. These include Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism,...

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jul 19 at 2021 4:24 PM

2021-07-19T16:24:12-04:00

Why was it there?

Response by SPC Jesse Davis made Jul 19 at 2021 7:49 PM

2021-07-19T19:49:32-04:00

Why was it there in the first place?

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Jul 19 at 2021 8:05 PM

2021-07-19T20:05:06-04:00

If they represent every other relegion, I don't have a problem.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2021 3:06 PM

2021-07-20T15:06:56-04:00

Um... No

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2021 3:08 PM

2021-07-20T15:08:08-04:00

Put the table and Bible back

Response by SrA C. Brown made Mar 2 at 2023 10:17 AM

2023-03-02T10:17:17-05:00

Put it back, NOW!