To chapter or to not chapter?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:54:06 -0400

I have a Soldier who has not passed a PT in appoximately 4 years. In that time, she has gotten Pregnant twice. I have only been her NCO for 8 months. I have tried to Motivate her to did deeper, counseled her(both verbally and on paper). She has made progress each PT Test, but still continues not pass. During the last PT Test she still improved on her run, but again did not pass. Her run times increase by 1 approx. 1 min and 30 secs everytime. I have forced her to run with me after work on days that I can make myself available, and on weekends. i can honestly say that I do not believe the effort or want is there. During the last PT Test, she was aware that if she failed, the Command would push for a Chapter. Once the Soldier finished the run, she was walking normally, and completed her Height and Weight. The Soldier later sent a text saying her foot was hurting and was going to go see the Medics. After Medical examination, the Medics found her foot to be broken. The Soldeir claimed it happened during the run. The Medic stated that it did not look consistant with an injury that would come from a run, and looked like an injury of someone dropping something on their foot. After, I can distinctly remember the Soldier looking to be in pain during the entire run. I can not prove or disprove when the injury occured or how. Legal, through the packet out, I was not told why, I'm guessing because they feel that because the soldier injured herself during the run, that being the reason she failed, it was not fair to her to be Chaptered. Just wondering what everyone elses thoughts are.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 12:05 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:05:51 -0400

I am a mother of 4 -- and a physician as well as a Naval Officer -- here is my 2 sense:

(1) She pushed through a run in pain with a broken toe (I have broken a toe as well and PT'd through it -- bone pain is not fun) -- so let that speak for her motivation.

(2) Losing weight after a baby or two or more can be done -- but it is not easy to do for a ton of reasons -- not necessarily one that gets her off the hook but should be understood on a personal level. Try and see if you can find people in your area that have done it. Speaking to women who have been there and found a way to transcend can be helpful and motivating. It is very frustrating to feel like you are doing what you should to lose the weight but it doesn't come off. And honestly, as kind as I am sure you are (as evidenced by you doing those runs with her) you don't understand either -- and trust me her internal dialogue is damaging and is also telling her that 'you just don't understand" which adds to her self-defeat.

(3) She needs exercises that are the most bang for her buck . . . circuit training is a great option for this. She doesn't have a lot of time so circuit training is usually complete within 30min and will still help with both her cardio abilities and her strength -- it will also help her with keeping her body guessing and therefore help her to lose weight.

Medically --- I agree with legal (and I don't do that often) --- you can't say how she broke her foot at this point (I don't care what the medic says) so she should not have gone through the fitness test either way. The army rules are different in regards to height/weight so I can't speak to that.

Hope this helps. If she needs a mentor/motivator I am happy to help. She can reach out to me any time. I had 3 of my children on active duty and very close together so I very much so understand her struggle.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Sep 22 at 2014 12:05 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:05:52 -0400

I would still move forward with the Chapter process. From reading what you wrote, her prior support channel failed her by allowing her to fail PT tests for 4 years and not taking any action for whatever reason(s). I think if you have given this Soldier the time you have described and she is still unable to complete the test at the level she needs to, she is only hurting the unit.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 22 at 2014 2:05 PM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:05:31 -0400

You mentioned that she was pregnant. How long ago did she complete the pregnancy and postpartum PT program?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 3:08 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 15:08:09 -0400

She needs to be chaptered. The Army doesn't need soldiers like this who can't or won't meet the standards. The situation you have described sounds like a case of malingering.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 4:38 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:38:50 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, working as a former Paralegal... it looks like she has been given plenty of chances. You have to look at it this way, does everyone have the same chance she does? I can not answer this question, but there are several things you can do:

1. CDRs / 1SGs philosophy
2. AR 635-200 Chapter 13
3. Medical Advice
4. Proper paper work, counseling, and milestones

If you have done your homework and utilized the process, you may have to steer the way of the chapter. I have been injured before, but was given ample time due to counseling milestones and obvious medical documentation. I'm fully recovered, but I was determined to recover. If I was given way too much time and leway, it could have altered my motivation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 4:47 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:47:03 -0400

This is a great experience to have at this point in your career. When I encounter someone like this, I ask questions that may seem outside of the issue at hand like, why did you join the Army? Would you still join again if you had it to do all over? Why did you pick your MOS? If you could be anything, in or out of the military, what would you want to be? The answers to this questions will clear up whether this is a Soldier who just needs to figure out her career path to become excited about her future with the Army, or if this is someone who is just marking time.

In TRADOC units, there is a phenomenon where Soldiers coming off of recent deployments, especially those who experienced trauma, blow off the schoolhouse. They are unmotivated, combative with instructors, sham PT sessions, etc, etc. What is really happening for these Soldiers is that after the harsh reality of combat, they find themselves just "going through the motions" - sometimes even with their families. Having a new baby has a similar effect. You are catatonic. You aren't sleeping. Life seems like one emergency after another.

As leaders, we are good at understanding the connection between PT failure and a lack of personal motivation. Where we fall down on the job is thinking about why a Soldier might lack personal motivation. People are quick to assume laziness, but if the Soldier was ever fit, that means something changed. Your job is to help pinpoint what. Somethings, like getting her to think about what she wants to do in the Army going forward, you can help with; somethings, like needing counseling or parenting support, you can't, but you can help get her linked up with the FRSA.

My mantra: Learn the difference between problem Soldiers and Soldiers with problems. If you are the former, I will help show you the door. If you are the latter, I am going to do everything I can to help you get back on track. I am so glad you brought this to our community. Good luck to both of you!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 10:15 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:15:20 -0400

My question is, "how did she go 4 years in the Army and never pass an APFT"? Why hasn't she been Chaptered? There is only one standard in the Army, and that is the Army standard. If you cannot meet them, then it is probably time for you to find something else to do!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2014 2:01 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2014 02:01:50 -0400

Do you have a MFT in your unit? Getting with them to develop a fitness plan is the way to go. It really does sound like this Soldier is skating by. Continue to counsel the Soldier and develop a solid PT plan for the recovery phase and administer a diagnostic and record APFT when possible. If PT is the only thing holding this Soldier back, get people involved that can work out with her to motivate her. You don't want her to feel like extra PT or PT with you is a punishment. If you have a solid PT plan and she continues to fail due to lack of effort, I think she should be chaptered out.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 5 at 2014 2:14 AM

SPC David S. — Sun, 05 Oct 2014 02:14:19 -0400

Unfortunately the military is not for everyone. Go with the facts at hand. I have a feeling that 4 years turns in to 6 and so on. SSG Private RallyPoint Member you've done what you can.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2014 6:51 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2014 06:51:26 -0400

I Understand not passing a pt test after a pregnancy the first year might be a little difficult but 4 years is a little ridiculous ...... i got onto the AWCP and they were quick to kick me out but we have a female that was on AWCP and PT failure and they were doing anything to keep her in and she is a one of the laziest soldiers ive seen..... my opinion chapter

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2014 1:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2014 13:11:02 -0400

boot this dead weight out of the military

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 7 at 2014 1:37 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 13:37:55 -0400

I think you answered your own question with your comment, "I can honestly say that I do not believe the effort or want is there." If that is what you really believe, there is no need for discussion or second guessing.

It seems to me that the you and your chain of command have given her every opportunity. I think it is time to do what is necessary and move on. My opinion is that, if she ever gets to the point of passing the PT Test, the cycle will simple start over.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Oct 7 at 2014 2:23 PM

1SG Mark Colomb — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:23:17 -0400

Here is a crusty old 1SG perspective.

Where is the senior NCO leadership in the unit? Sure her first line supervisor is doing the right thing, but if the Soldier does not have the faith and confidence in the senior leadership of the company that she will be helped throughout the process it should surprise no one that this Soldier may be demonstrating a few signs of apathy.

That said, we live in the here and now. What can be done for this Soldier to get her through the process? Get the leadership involved in a positive way. Get an MFT involved, preferably a female who has been through the mess, but will hold the Soldier to task. Establish realistic milestones for her improvement. She did not become physically unfit in a few months, why think she can fix herself in that short of a time?

Have a true heart to heart discussion with this Soldier, one based on openness and trust. Does she want to stay in? Does she have support on all fronts? Remember the whole Soldier concept? Apply some positive leadership and either coach, teach and mentor her back to a Soldier who meets the standards, or coach, teach and mentor her to make the decision to get our of the Army for her own good (and I mean that in a manner that she may be missing good opportunities in the civilian environment). Do the right thing for the Soldier and it will be the right thing for the Army.

Top Out.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Dec 16 at 2014 6:51 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 18:51:07 -0500

I used to ask myself, how much time am I taking away from my motivated soldiers by putting extra effort into a specific soldier? There is a braking point (no pun intended). Is your dedication to her woh the time you are taking away from your good soldiers

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Apr 3 at 2015 7:54 AM

PFC Mike Mcdermott — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 07:54:52 -0400

I'm against chaptering entirely. I was chaptered under dubious circumstances. Lost my G.I. Bill. Lost college fund. That was after four years of qualifying expert and scoring 290 and above on the PFT every time we had to take it. I lost my college fund. I lost the G.I. Bill. And in the end, my discharge was mostly reversed by the review board. It's as though they knew it was all bullshit. So, yeah, I'm against chaptering someone out.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2019 9:21 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 21:21:11 -0400

Soldiers get chaptered for anything nowadays if they are thought by their command as not being good enough to have around. Soldiers comply with standards or find a new home. Soldiers Don't take up space just because they need it. They prove their worth constantly. And sorry to say, a lot of leaders spend more time trying to get rid of their problems than putting the effort of correcting the problem. It all comes down to the individual, they really want it or they don't. Living on sympathy is no life at all.