Tough question. Can an atheist file an EO complaint for discrimination?

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:27:16 -0500

Keep in mind the categories that fall under EO (race, color, religion, gender, and national origin) and explain/justify your answer. Please keep comments relevant to the question and not turn this into a debate on atheism vs Christianity.

Also no bashing on either of the two.

(Added later)

So let me qualify the question. The premise is that atheist claim that atheism is not a religion. (Some atheist claim that it is, but it is a very small minority) EO complaints are based on discrimination against your "X" (X being race, color, religion, gender, or national origin) So when the EOA asks which of those 5 things you complaint falls under and you say "religion" the next question is what is your religion? So if atheism is not a religion, how do you have an EO complaint based off of the guidelines established by EO?

If the person that the atheist is saying is being discriminatory against them is not religious themselves, then what is the complaint under? It couldn't be religion because that person doesn't have a religion either but also is not atheist.

I think either atheism is a religion and falls under the EO program or it is not a religion and does not fall under the EO program. But it can't be both.

Either way it is wrong, so don't think I am advocating for discriminating against atheist, I just don't think it falls under the EO program the way it is currently defined under those 5 categories and the fact that atheist proclaim they are not a religion.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 15 at 2014 4:43 PM

SFC James Baber — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:43:55 -0500

I would say yes. Example if you tell someone who is preaching about any religion and your belief is not believing in any that you would prefer not to hear it and could they either stop or go somewhere else and they ignore you and continue it.

That I believe that would fall under the arena based on my past EOA experience and knowledge, if I am incorrect please step in and let me know, thanks for feedback.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 4:48 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:48:14 -0500

Of course, anyone can file a complaint, but they need to get a review panel to believe it.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 4:51 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:51:20 -0500

Like I said below I believe yes. It would be a form of harassment. So definitely I would.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 5:18 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:18:56 -0500

SSG Burns, you are too smart for your own good. I see what you did there.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 15 at 2014 5:39 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:39:12 -0500

Religion, or more to the point, lack of religion (belief in God(s)) is the basis of their creed. If they are being discriminated due to faith, or lack thereof, it is a viable EO issue.

If they are being discriminated against, it should be based on whether or not they are adhering to a culturally acceptable ethical/moral standard. Ethical Egoism being an example. Even having culturalized the "Me First" philosophy, we still consider it reprehensible when experiencing it first hand from the losing side. Most Americans, when we actually stop to think through the matter of our choices, will generally go with Ethical Utilitarianism, regardless of religious (or lack of) faith, even the Satanists.

Now, if your atheist friend feels they are being discriminated against because they aren't being invited to play all the Christian games, they are just being difficult.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 6:42 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:42:51 -0500

I would say yes but the deciding commander would have the discretion on this one. I say yes because I see it as discrimination against religious beliefs. If I believe there is no god and you attempt to make me believe your belief you just violated my EO. Example: I am agnostic. I respect your beliefs but I don't follow them. When I was a SPC at a BN change of command the tried to make the bowing of the head in cadence. I do not bow my head during prayer as I am not praying. The CSM came over yelling at me about it. I still respectfully refused. I was soon surrounded by senior NCOs all yelling at me. The chaplain ended up coming over and telling them they could not force me to partake in their religious act.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jan 15 at 2014 6:43 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:43:50 -0500

I would like to get an EOL's view on this.

Response by SGT Deborah Childs made Jan 15 at 2014 6:46 PM

SGT Deborah Childs — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:46:29 -0500

I believe that all of you are definitely correct when it comes to this issue and while I do not personally believe in their beliefs, as a leader in the military, I would never treat anybody different because of what they believe in. We all have a responsibility to treat everyone with respect, but that still does not mean that I would have to socialize with them if I didn't want to. SSG Olson is correct, it is harassment .

Response by SGT Joni Hughes made Jan 15 at 2014 7:08 PM

SGT Joni Hughes — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:08:36 -0500

They are people like everyone else...I have never seen anyone forced to attend religious activities during my time in, and now supporting the VA & my brother's reserve unit, not saying that it does not happen. I have just never seen it, all the activities or services that I have seen have been voluntary. But as far as people looking down on you for not doing what they are doing you have that everywhere you go, just not the military. But if the person is being bias when talking to you, 1st step is to speak to them (tactfully) and let them know professionalism comes first, and you do not appreciate their comments, next step supervisor & so forth...I believe it should be the same all the way around.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jan 15 at 2014 7:34 PM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:34:12 -0500

I tend to be quite respectful to other people's belief systems. If someone of one faith is treating another person differently based on religion, that is discrimination. Atheism is a religion per se & it should be allowed the same rights under the Constitution & military law. Years ago we had a unit that was doing something a bit different. The were loading their unit with all one religion. It was wide-spread with career managers, S-1, & Repo-Depo shipping people from all one religion to one unit. That got busted up fast. Command was relived & people transferred out. The couple of officers in that unit that weren't of that religion were getting lousy OER's when they were known to be fine officers. That was one helluva discrimination case.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 8:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:27:57 -0500

It shouldn't matter if an individual is an atheist or not. Complaint is a complaint, any one can file one with right support docs and things like that.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 15 at 2014 8:48 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:48:56 -0500

I think either atheism is a religion and falls under the EO program or it is not a religion and does not fall under the EO program. But it can't be both.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 15 at 2014 9:49 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:49:32 -0500

If I am being discriminated against because of my fraternity I have a valid complaint, it's just not a valid EO complaint because fraternities don't fall under any of those 5 categories.

If I am being discriminated against because Im an atheist, I have a valid complaint just not an EO complaint because atheism is not a religion and doesn't fall under any of those 5 categories.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Jan 15 at 2014 10:26 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:26:01 -0500

SSG Burns I would say yes under religion.

On the topic of religion in general : I can say this

Some people believe in a God

Some people believe in other Gods

Some people believe yet in many Gods

and some people don't believe in God

This is all their is to know about religion in general.

If a person doesn't believe in a God, or Many Gods, then he still falls under religion in General as someone who doesn't believe in a God or any Gods by that matter.

It is important though that while in the topic I mention that religion is a spiritual growth in that persons life. perhaps this is why many people switch religions for the purpose of spiritual growth, and some people move from religion to a philosophy because that is where they stand in life. The topic is extremely person based only on where that person stands in life. Some people never find it until they approach death, fact is religion is really a group of people or a group of people who gather together.

Better yet when looked at closely it is the urge towards survival to be a part of a group.

The group can be a church

It can be a community

a club

a job

a city or state or a country.

We in RP are also consider as a group. Or the urge towards survival to be among each other.

I can keep going on but if as you stated can someone complain on discrimination the answer is yes, under religion.

RACE? No

Color? No

Gender? No

National origin? No

you will find Atheism in all the above, I said no too.

The word: "Religion in General" came from the :church of scientology, and its that definition that I'm using.

Scientology means : Knowing how to know.

This may not be what your looking for but I thought maybe I introduce you to these possible ideas of way of thinking.

Consider the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] Most inclusively,...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 10:48 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 22:48:03 -0500

At the end of 600-20 it defines religion as Religion

"A personal set or institutionalized system of attitudes, moral or ethical beliefs, and practices that are held with the strength of traditional religious views, characterized by ardor or faith, and generally evidenced through specific religious observances"

So religion is a person's religious attitudes, not so much their religion in general.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 12:21 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:21:00 -0500

Been a long time since I went to EOR school, but here is what you have to remember. There is no magically list in the Army of what is recognized as an official religion. The only list that the Army has is the religions that provide Chaplain support for (people confuse this with recognized religions). The tenets of the EO program state that you cannot be discriminated against for any reason. No one can make you pray, however they can require you to stand in formation during a ceremony while the invocation is given. A perfect example is many years ago when I was a Drill, Wiccan was slowly becoming a mainstream religion. While at that time the Army did not have any Chaplains, I still had to provide an area and opportunity for the Soldiers to worship. I could not treat them any differently than I did any other Soldier. A Soldier cannot be discriminated against because they dont believe in God, anymore than a Soldier can be discriminated against because they believe in Budha or Allah as opposed to God. I would recommend you go to the EOA rather then the EOL with this one (which you have to if it is against the Chain of Command) as the EOL probably does not have the experience to handle this problem. If they turn you away, go to IG and the post EO office. It will be resolved properly.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 2:18 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 02:18:32 -0500

SSG Burns
You keep using the rebuttal of how is it discrimination. EO doesn't have to be discrimination to be an EO complaint. If I call an African American Soldier a derogatory name I just violated EO and they can complain. I didn't discriminate against them, I created a hostile work environment. If I feel you are creating a hostile work environment because I am not religious I can complain. It is up to the commander and the investigating officer to decide.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 4:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 04:02:29 -0500

Religion can be define according to merriam-webster as 1. the belief in a god or in a group of gods 2. an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods or 3. an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group. In my opinion Atheism falls into the 3rd definition. They have the belief that there is no god or deities. So Atheism can be defined as a religion. That being said it should fall under the protection of the EO program. It is also a recognized religious preference in the US Military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 4:40 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 04:40:36 -0500

I am kind of torn on this one as well. The whole atheism
thing gets a bad rap for the most part. They aren't supposed to
"force" their religion on anyone. However, how many times have you
been forced to stand in a formation and listen to the chaplain? We were not
given the opportunity to “opt out”. We had to stand there. Not to mention how
many times have you been forced to attend a class in the chapel?

I digress; in just about any case you could
find an EO/SHARP or whatever in just about any circumstance that you are placed
in by the military or just life in general.

“THIS OFFENDS ME!” seems to be the
battle cry of the generation. Sad to say
but, That’s just what I see. My opinion and I could be wrong.

Response by 1SG Michael Minton made Jan 16 at 2014 8:00 AM

1SG Michael Minton — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:00:34 -0500

i could see how it could be seen both ways. but i would have to say it could be discriminatio "for the lack of religion". Is it a play on worrds, I dont know. but discrimination can be for being somethig (gender, race,etc) or for not beig something. The military has changed alot in the few years ive been out if these are problems. we never talked about religion, politics, sexual orientation, race, etc.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 16 at 2014 1:19 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:19:23 -0500

Perhaps EO needs to be amened. I do not think athiesm qualifies as a religion even if there was a routine of activities that identified someone as an athiest. Here's a senerio, if I was looking for someone to lead a prayer group during lunch at work in the break area and an athiest volunteered and I basically told him, your beliefs or a lack thereof do not fall inline with my group and therefore you will not be permitted to teach and to mentor to the group. Is that a vaild complaint of discrimination?

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 16 at 2014 1:26 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 13:26:54 -0500

Bobby,

Your question originally was "Can an Atheist file an EO complaint?"

The answer is yes, under religion and there is a legal precedence for it.

Your second question is "How can they file it under religion, if as an Atheist, they are non-religious?"

At this point your line of questioning is argumentative and no longer about EO as a simple fact based mission. You have made it into a debate over semantics and philosophy, which is not your job as an EOR, EOL or EOA. The policy is well established.

Now, if you had a Soldier, devoutly Atheist, who feels that his right to non-religion is being violated by a mandatory prayer meeting at couples retreat that is sponsored by the unit, but coordinated by the Chaplain... Are you going to advise the Chaplain, as the EOL/EOA that the Prayer meeting can not be mandated for attending Soldiers and their spouses, or are you going to tell the Soldier that EO is not the program he needs to use to address the situation?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2014 3:03 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:03:44 -0500

SSG Burns, it doesnt matter how many times you repeat the question to clarify if they arent responding to what you asked in the first place. 90% of these responses have nothing to do with what you asked. They are simply reacting to the word discrimination and EO. They know it's bad so it shouldnt be allowed. They are not thinking about what you are asking specifically.

I completely get that you are not advocating any type of discrimination of ANYONE, Atheist or Cowboys fans as you pointed out.

Stop expecting everyone to think about things at the depth you apparently do. You will drive yourself crazy.

Even that Chief spoke of circular logic at an attempt to sound academic but apparently doesnt understand that you are not using the premise to prove your conclusion, you are using facts based of the court cases you provided and the definitions he provided. That's just good ole' logical reasoning.

Don't feel like you need to respond to every response and repeatedly defend your position.

It is good that you ask such questions to spark discussion and debate because EVERYONE learns from it. I am sure everyone who has read this discussion has learned something they didnt know and has also thought about something they never considered before. Keep up the good work with your though provoking questions.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Jan 17 at 2014 7:08 AM

SSG Richard Stevens — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 07:08:26 -0500

yes they can. it is there right to have the same rights as everybody else

Response by SGT James P. Davidson, MSM made Jan 17 at 2014 8:55 AM

SGT James P. Davidson, MSM — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 08:55:35 -0500

Per 'religion':

Religion is a belief system rooted in faith that has at least one deity at it's head. Atheism, however, has no such foundation. It requires no faith, has no deity, but simply requires a belief that there is no/are no God/gods.

For an atheist to file an EO complaint based on religious discrimination is difficult, then, as it is simply not a religion, but a belief. Conversely, if an atheist is forced to sit through religious ceremonies ('brand' of religion notwithstanding, but more irrelevant), then he or she has grounds and a basis for filing the EO complaint. It violates his or her First Amendment right to freedom of (to choose or not to choose to practice) religion.

If a person 'of faith' claims religious discrimination, the religion they practice is completely irrelevant. The fact that they practice, however, is. Personally, I am a Christian, but not a Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, et cetera and so on. One does not have to adhere to a specific denomination to 'be' a Christian.

Then there are those who practice a belief system that is 'classified' as a religion, but is nothing more than a set of beliefs that may or may not include faith with no deity at it's head, such as Buddhism. 'Lord Buddha' is not considered a 'god', but an 'enlightened being'.

As to the sexual aspect of EO filings:

Homosexuals have no legal foundation at this time for a sexual discrimination case, as homosexuality in neither a race, religion, ethnic background, national origin, color, gender or creed. This is why the civil courts almost always try cases of "hate crimes", though the defendant in each case would be, often times, hard pressed to be proven to "hate" the offended, or others of that sexual persuasion. As it stands currently, gay males are still males, and gay females are still females, and so the laws, rules and regulations apply to them equally.

That said, any and every homosexual, having the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, does have the right to file an EO claim for any violation of the aforementioned reasons, including ethnicity, religion and so on.

Basically, if one is going to be gay, then be gay. Just don't be gay about it.

Response by SSG Andrew Dydasco made Jan 17 at 2014 12:37 PM

SSG Andrew Dydasco — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:37:58 -0500

SSG Burns, may I suggest an alternate situation which you may/may not agree with being a valid EO complaint? Keep in mind I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just trying to bring attention to a different perspective, SSG. The idea is that the complaint doesn't have to be AGAINST your race/religion/gender/etc... but instead, specifically FOR someone else's race/religion/gender/etc... So, even if you don't classify atheism as a religion, if there was squad leader who said all of his Christian Soldiers get to have Thursdays off, it would still be an EO violation in favor of the atheist, even though atheism isn't a religion. It isn't exactly AGAINST the atheist, it is just solely FOR another group. So when the EOA asks which category he/she would like to file about, saying 'religion' would still be valid, in my opinion, SSG.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 8:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 20:38:54 -0500

Religions are at their most basic level an attempt to explain the inexplicable. Thousands of years ago religions explained the existence of rain, fire, droughts, etc... Shamans, priests, and holy men gained power by offering explanations and guidance. As time has gone on humans have slowly whittled the list of the inexplicable down to a much smaller list that includes question about why we exist, where we came from, what happens when we die, and is their a higher power. Today most mainstream religions at their core are little more than philosophies centered around omnipotent deities that are always right and can't be questioned.

I would argue that an atheist follows a religion that posits all the answers have already been found and there is no longer a need for any supernatural explanations or divine logic traps. Atheists have belief systems. They have moral systems that are generally Darwinistic, something along the lines of don't infringe on or harm your neighbor because if everyone did society would collapse. They believe they know where we came from (evolution, big bang theory). They believe they know what happens when we die (soil fertilization). In every way atheism is a rejection of religion as a crutch and the acceptance of a philosophical way of life that is just as much a religion but one that mostly negates the need for unsubstantiated religious articles of faith. Atheism requires only one leap of faith: That all the unknowable answers have already been answered or that science and logic will eventually provide the answer. This leap of faith could be equated to the more numerous leaps of faith of any other religion.

In other words, Atheism is a religion and should be protected as such under the Equal Opportunity program.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 9:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 21:57:13 -0500

SSG Burns, it does not matter if your religion is atheism or not, if you (or a Soldier) feels they were discriminated against because of religion, regardless of religion, then they can file a complaint. <div><br></div><div>Here are a few things that atheism would be discriminated against: the PL does not select you for SQ LDR because you are atheist; the CDR or 1SG does not give you a good NCOER because you are atheist; you are placed in a lesser job, not working with the Soldiers, because your atheist; you are forced to go to services by the CDR or 1SG/PSG even thought you don't attend services; you have to listen to the CDR or 1SG at every meeting/formation talking about religion or start the meeting with a prayer of some kind. I don't think I need to go on, by the way fill in anything that fits with CDR or 1SG. </div><div><br></div><div>It falls under religion because it is religion based.  What is the first thing you think of when you hear atheism… religion. </div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 12:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 00:05:19 -0400

I don't understand how someone can get offended by something that they don't even believe in. I've never been able to quite wrap my head around that.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 1:24 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 01:24:01 -0400

I think that atheists should be able to file an EO complaint if they are being discriminated against because they don't have a religion. Atheism does not have to be a religion to be protected under EO because if someone is being discriminated because they don't practice a certain religion or their beliefs don't line up with someone else's beliefs then that is an EO violation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 8:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 20:26:46 -0400

Great read! However, I got counseled for saying that Army Regulations are bibles. My NCOIC said did it occur to me that there could have been an atheist in our classroom.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Nov 22 at 2019 6:50 AM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Fri, 22 Nov 2019 06:50:28 -0500

It is discrimination due to the fact individual was denied a benefit or advancement for lack of belief in any religion.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2020 6:38 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2020 18:38:19 -0500

Absolutely, and should. I'm an atheist, and I've had pushy leadership and pushy chaplains try to force me to do things multiple times. I've always said my ground and they've backed off, but I'd they hadn't, I'd have gone to IG.