"Toxic" Leadership.....Is a Leader truly Toxic or do you just not like the way they lead?

2014-02-09T23:00:55-05:00

<p>All too often, we hear the word "Toxic" thrown around at a leader (Officer, Warrant Officer, Non-Commissioned Officer) when someone doesn't like the way the act.  But what truly makes them toxic?  Is it because they yell a lot?  Because they make use a curse word or two?  Because they are demanding and enforce standards and discipline? Is it because they are loud? Or maybe it's because we don't like the way they are treating us and we think they are the problem?</p><p><br></p><p>Now, I am not saying that there are not Toxic leaders out there, because I am sure there are....but what I am saying that it seems to be today's buzz word that anyone who gets their feelings hurt to say "my leader is Toxic, that is why they are acting the way they do."</p><p><br></p><p>Maybe their leadership style is different than what we prefer or are accustom too, but think back to the peace time Army before OEF and OIF and those same "loud" / "Toxic" leaders maintained a standard and discipline that allowed us to rapidly conduct two wars at the same time.  Back in those days Soldiers stood at Parade Rest to NCOs out of respect and courtesy for the respect for the position earned.  Heck, junior NCOs stood at parade rest to senior NCOs.  Soldiers stood at attention to officers.  When junior Soldiers passed seniors, they gave a proper greeting (unit motto or simply "good morning, Sir).</p><p><br></p><p>Maybe we should look back at a lot of what the Army and Military has lost by utilizing the word "Toxic" against leaders who simply try to do the right think and keep the Military the profession it is.</p>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 11:06 PM

2014-02-09T23:06:34-05:00

very good point, its usually people with thin skin who dont like being told no who say their leadership is toxic,, good questions

Response by SFC Kevin Carpenter made Feb 9 at 2014 11:16 PM

2014-02-09T23:16:22-05:00

I have to agree, it is thrown around too much. I think we need to let new soldiers know the difference right away, most of them still keep their feelings on their shoulder.  They need to learn the difference in someone trying to hurt their career and someone giving direct to the point advice.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 11:19 PM

2014-02-09T23:19:41-05:00

<p>MAJ Oberg,</p><p> </p><p>Your analysis is right on.  I have thought the same thing.  There truly are "toxic" leaders out there, but the numbers are FAR less than some would have you believe.  The constant complaining about leadership would never have happened 20 years ago when the level of discipline was much different from today.  Our standards have eroded over time due to the military being used as some kind of social experiment.  We tell today's leaders that they have to make Soldiers "feel good" and not hurt their self-esteem.  The truth is an awful lot of great, strong military leaders of the past (basically everybody who won battles) would be considered "toxic" by today's standards.  </p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-02-10T21:38:01-05:00

<div>Major Oberg,</div><div><br></div>Verbal, mental, or psychological abuse is unacceptable in any working environment. Period.<div><br></div><div>A truly dynamic leader can accomplish the same sets of tasks, maintain the same standards, lead the same Soldiers, and drive the same missions as someone who berates, belittles, divides, and nitpicks their troops.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I agree with part of what you said - Not every leader who a group of Soldiers dislike deserves the title "Toxic."</div><div><br></div><div>There are some core indicators:</div><div><br></div><div>* Narcissism.  </div><div>* Inability to accept responsibility for their mistakes.  </div><div>* Workplace division [creating an environment where they attempt to pit people against each other in order to secure their own position.]</div><div>* Verbal abuse.</div><div>* Threats.</div><div>* Lies.</div><div>* Choosing favorites and making those favorites known.</div><div>* Shallow affect toward others.</div><div>* Inability to engage with societal norms.  </div><div>*Talking over people and/or at them even when you ask them questions, and/or refusing to listen to someone due to pride.</div><div><br></div><div>I wrote an article concerning this topic.  </div><div><br></div><div>http://tekkek.com/entrepreneur/management/2013/04/toxic-leaders-a-guide-to-spotting-and-coping/<br></div><div><br></div><div>In today's age, with the levels of intelligence in the average recruit and the push toward a more educated force - you're rapidly running out of ground to maintain "the old school mentality" when it comes to dealing with people.  </div><div><br></div><div>FM 6-22, Chapter Four clearly denotes the character expected out of a leader.  Toxicity has no quarter, no place, and no excuse in a professional force - ESPECIALLY - one in which we aren't going to be deployed for a period of time.  Especially in one that is focused more on either training, garrison, or office type environments.</div><div><br></div><div>In my opinion - it's more than high time that we start looking to clean out the ranks and allow some of the leaders forged over the past decade of conflict to move up and take the place of these entrenched assholes who honestly?  Can't cut it in the civilian world.</div><div><br></div><div>End rant.</div><div><br></div><div>Respectfully, Sir.</div><div><br></div><div>JCG</div><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://tekkek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/toxic-leader-3-300x175.gif"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://tekkek.com/entrepreneur/management/2013/04/toxic-leaders-a-guide-to-spotting-and-coping/">Toxic Leaders: A Primer - TEKKEK</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">A brief look at Toxic Leaders; what they are, how to spot them, ways to cope with them, followed with a brief commentary on courses of action to take.</div></div><div style="clear:both"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 10:23 PM

2014-02-10T22:23:58-05:00

Something I have not seen anyone else mention in this discussion that I believe makes up a toxic leader: the do as I say not as I do NCO.  All too often I see my peers send their Soldiers out to accomplish a mission  that they themselves wouldn't do.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 11:39 PM

2014-02-10T23:39:47-05:00

I was actually discussing a similar issue earlier. I have seen both sides of the spectrum. Growing up in the Army over the last decade,I've had leaders that no one liked. I've secretly thought some of these were great leaders. Some of the most unpopular ones were my favorites. I'll be the first to admit that I have a bit of a thin skin. I never like being yelled at, however, if I deserve it, I deserve it (as a result, I always do the right thing so I don't risk it). I think that is called discipline, or something. A good leader inspires and accomplishes the mission. They are someone you can take something from and use it for the rest of your life. I've had leaders that were "screamers" that still showed that they cared about Soldiers. I personally, am a more soft spoken NCO, but I can be strict. As a result, some Soldiers think I can be a pushover. I've seen those that yell and scream, yet they are teddy bears. I've had Soldiers dislike me and complain about me. On one occasion, I had to yell at a Soldier that totally did not get it. I felt kind of bad after the fact, but after my Soldier went to the 1SG and complained about me, I was called in for a talking to. I was then told by my 1SG how he was proud of me and that I should do it more often. To me, it feels to contrived, but when I was still a SPC, I had a super intuitive SGT that helped me learn how to deal with Soldiers. He pointed out each one in our section and taught me how to lead each one. There were different ways to deal with different Soldiers, and some only responded to yelling. I had to learn how to get out of my comfort zone to learn how to be an effective leader. Not all NCO's vary their leadership style to their individual Soldiers, and that is ok. Soldiers also need to learn how to adapt to different leaders. <div><br><div>I've had my fair share of toxic leaders. The traits that set them apart are that they truly do not care for Soldiers. I even think that there are bad leaders out there that truly care for their Soldiers, they just don't know how to properly lead. Toxic leaders are not these. A toxic leader is one that will use anything they can to advance themselves, even if it is at the peril of those they lead. They are the ones that may or may not yell. They are the ones that will do everything they can to break down a Soldier with no intention of building them back up. Abuse comes in many forms. Those that are abusive are toxic, period. They are missing something in their lives that they think they have to step on others to get. These are the ones that may talk a good game and have absolutely nothing to back it up. Those that are self-serving are setting their subordinates up for failure.</div><div><br></div><div> I can see having a blurred line between the two. I can also see Soldiers not knowing the difference. At the end of the day, if you have a Soldier going above and beyond, staying out of trouble and looking for a good example that is not evident in their leader, then you probably have a toxic leader. </div></div>

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Feb 11 at 2014 2:01 AM

2014-02-11T02:01:48-05:00

<p>MAJ Oberg:</p><p><br></p><p>Sir, respectfully I will share with you that as a WO1 I had a MAJ who went out of his way to belittle and disrespect me in front of the enlisted.</p><p><br></p><p>When I went from CW2 to 2LT CC I had a MAJ who lied and checked the block on my OER that he counseled me and he did not.</p><p><br></p><p>I had to request an open door policy to see the Chief of Staff, due to both the Lead Chaplain and my CDR wanted me to sign paper work to go to the IRR.</p><p><br></p><p>V/R</p><p><br></p><p>CH (CPT) Davis</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>http://www.npr.org/2014/01/06/259422776/army-takes-on-its-own-toxic-leaders</p><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/01/03/toxic-leadership-3-efd348d20ca6bf4d03e66ae90968de4adc5664f8.jpg"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.npr.org/2014/01/06/259422776/army-takes-on-its-own-toxic-leaders" target="_blank">Army Takes On Its Own Toxic Leaders</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Could destructive leadership be contributing to the rise in soldiers who commit suicide?</div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 11 at 2014 3:26 AM

2014-02-11T03:26:09-05:00

I think it all depends if there is a healthy amount of respect. I had a boss once that was condescending, mean spirited, and felt good when others were put down. That is toxic leadership.<div><br></div><div>Let's say a leader does things in a way you wouldn't but he/she has respect for you and the culture is where people can speak up. I believe that is more difference of personality, not toxic leadership.</div>

Response by Col Joel Anderson made Feb 11 at 2014 8:30 AM

2014-02-11T08:30:50-05:00

Glad to see the discussion on this continue as it is healthy and will truly benefit the leaders of our future military.<br>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 12:14 PM

2014-02-11T12:14:50-05:00

<p>Sir,</p><p>I think the thing that really makes a leader toxic is the environment and command climate that they create for a unit.  In my fairly short time in the Army I have already seen staffs that were absolutely terrified of approaching the commander with bad news.  I have seen very high ranking officers hold grudges against fellow officers, intimidate DA civilians, make promises that were never kept, play favorites, and pass command responsibility for safety requirements down to subordinates.  You can see it in the faces of the Soldiers when you enter a command environment ruled by fear.  </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>That being said, I have also seen and served under absolutely briliant leaders.  I once had a LTC yell and curse at me in front of an entire DFAC!  But it wasn't toxic.  I was wrong and needed a correction.  It worked.  He got the point across and I was a little embarassed at the time, but the next day we talked respectfully like professionals and there were no hard feelings.  It was that talk the next day that really solidified my respect for that leader.  I think that is a good example of a leader being able to yell and curse in an effort to enforce standards and discipline but not be toxic.</p><p> </p><p>Leading by example is the best type of leadership in my opinion and fear is not the same as respect.       </p>

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 5:24 PM

2014-02-12T17:24:13-05:00

<p>Two good read:</p><p> </p><p>http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dclm/Toxic_Leadership.pdf </p><div class="Lt"><a class="d-s ot-anchor jp" tabIndex="0" href="http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA431785" target="_blank"><u><font color="#0066cc">http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA431785</font></u></a></div>

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 5:25 PM

2014-02-12T17:25:52-05:00

<div class="Lt">Two great reads</div><div class="Lt"> </div><div class="Lt"><a class="d-s ot-anchor jp" tabIndex="0" href="http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA431785" target="_blank"><u><font color="#0066cc">http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA431785</font></u></a></div><div class="Lt">http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dclm/Toxic_Leadership.pdf</div><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dclm/Toxic_Leadership.pdf" target="_blank"></a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">ÉÆ3ë#â¶7ôÚ%®cøï*Wiù8¸lN)÷kûûgÞöúLï*Û'²f×ýlþNX²lï×íOv±,/Ù~£P®?}S¹ËÒ·§>ýnaÕõOË6ìÚSÚ¿Hü£WÞjÔ¯f×ì|¤Ë¸Áôê¹ ®ä¾(çÞ2WUNÚÆæã§,Ä:aÒ²=N³C×/ýø£ºB®C)âó¢EîGÆ/Êÿ{5áWº0/@ ¦¥Ç
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Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 10:00 PM

2014-02-12T22:00:02-05:00

During peace time a lot of silliness happens because people become bored and complacent.<br>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-02-13T15:09:05-05:00

When you are the Bn XO and nobody to include the Bn Commander stands up and says something about you during your Hail and Farewell, you are probably a toxic leader. In my experience what most people call a "toxic" leader is someone that enforces the standards across the board and someone doesn't like it

Response by Col Joel Anderson made Feb 13 at 2014 3:58 PM

2014-02-13T15:58:41-05:00

Agree, there are leadership styles, traits, personalities, command climate etc...that come in all different shapes, sizes and forms.  We absolutely need to steer away from those who just disagree with the way one does business, leads etc... Everyone has their place in time to lead, follow or get out of the way.  I don't think that was the intent originally posed by senior leaders when asking about the influences of toxic leadership.  I believe that the original intent was to assess and ascertain whether or not this type or style of leadership was a contributing factor to suicide.  If it trickles over to other aspects fine, but lets not lose sight of what the original discussion was about. 

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made Feb 13 at 2014 4:55 PM

2014-02-13T16:55:16-05:00

A toxic leader in my opinion are those who don't care about their Soldiers in the most literal sense of the word.  A Sergeant First Class who gets tasked to be a Platoon Sergeant and says "Can you get someone else I don't want to".  An NCO who never shows up for work, dodges responsibility.  Or even better yet, an NCO tells a Soldier to do something and when that Soldier gets their ass chewed that NCO is RIGHT THERE and says absolutely nothing just sitting there nodding his head in agreement opposite the Soldier and beside the ass chewer.<br><br>An NCO who actively looks for ways to get Soldiers in trouble, instead of being an honest to god leader that sees the issue and corrects it.  An NCO who goes to 5 (five) schools in one year and when asked by his Soldiers if they can go to even something as simple as Combatives level 1 or CLS he says I can't give you the time to do that class right now.<br><br>An NCO who hangs out with their Soldiers at a club, gets drunk and leaves them there to miss curfew.  NCO's that would rather live in NCO quarters as opposed to in Soldier barracks because the barracks should be condemned instead of trying to enforce standards and leading by example.<div><br></div><div>An NCO who is just completely incompetent at leading, and do not have the slightest idea on how to do much of anything much less even soldiering.<br><div><br></div><div>Those are example of toxic leadership.  Being loud, enforcing standards, or cursing are not in anyway examples of toxic leadership.</div></div>

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 6:54 AM

2014-03-16T06:54:47-04:00

I find that much like some of the leadership on here that about 50% of the leaders I had when I was a 2LT would have been labeled as toxic by some in the military today. Looking back, I see them as hard...but fair. My battalion commander was one of the best leaders I ever remember, but he wasn't mean or demeaning, he was constant. That's almost more important to me than being sensitive to others' feelings. The worst is a schizophrenic leader. Someone who goes from being your buddy to going full Gunnery Sergeant Hartman within 5 minutes. If someone is hard and demanding all the time, then you know what to expect and you are rarely nervous around them. If they are a nice guy all the time, then you know what to expect. Toxic does get thrown around quite a bit, but it's like someone said, "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it." Same story. You can tell when someone is abusive and no longer fit for leadership today...and yes...perception is reality.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 16 at 2014 10:23 PM

2014-03-16T22:23:47-04:00

<div>The term "Toxic" was coined to mean a leader who's behavior was so bad that it started to leak, to affect everything else. That's what "Toxic" was supposed to represent, meaning it spread (think radioactive I guess).</div><div><br></div><div>If a guy is just plain terrible, well then he's a bad leader. If he is so bad that you can trace most of your units issues to him or his decisions, then he is toxic. It's a question of how widespread his influence is.</div><div><br></div><div><div>For illustration, if I fail to qualify on my weapon, or I don't get haircuts, or if I just make poor decisions, then I can definitely be classified as a poor leader, I think we'd all agree.</div><div><br></div><div>Now, if I'm a racist, and that leads to all my minority Soldiers feeling isolated, that can be toxic. Especially if that perception starts to bleed into the unit. Same thing with sexism.</div><div><br></div><div>If I am guilty of favoritism, and as a result, my Junior NCO's start doing it too, that can definitely be labeled as toxic.</div><div><br></div><div>The difference between poor leadership and toxic leadership is in the spreading effect.</div></div><div><br></div>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2014 9:26 PM

2014-04-09T21:26:10-04:00

<p>Sir,</p><p><br></p><p>I like your view on this. However, I do believe that there is a serious problem with toxic leaders in the Army today. I think it is due to the fact that the "toxic" leaders that you were referring to that are not really toxic are not in the majority and we lost focus of standards in order to fill the ranks. As the wars dragged on the standards sunk and we allowed people into the military that really had no business being in the military to begin with. As the ranks opened due to demand we promoted them without training them to be leaders. They are now higher ranked officers and NCOs that never really truly learned how to become a leader. Now you have people who are meeting the standards and who you want to be in the military fighting for our freedom not receiving the proper mentorship. I always hear about mentorship but I very rarely see it. Only twice have I received any type of counseling. Those were initial counselings when I began a new position.</p><p><br></p><p>The big question is how to we separate who is really toxic and who is not. After that how do we get them out of the service so we can have the best force possible that meet the standards?</p>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2014 8:42 PM

2014-04-12T20:42:50-04:00

I have had this conversation many times. Too often a hard ass boss is called toxic and sometimes there is a fine line. I had a battalion commander who worked the hell out of us down range. We worked till 0200 and started at 0800. On the other hand he never raised his voice, treated people fairly, and was reasonable but believed in getting every ounce of work out of people. The Soldiers, many of the juniors who would rather be playing games and screwing off, would call him toxic but this wasn't the case. <br>This is the problem with uneducated people who don't like their commander calling them toxic. I have had the pleasure of working for a boss who would verbally and physically assault personnel at meetings and because another BC was already relieved knew he couldn't be. Sad thing is although he didn't get promoted and forced to retire he ruined several careers in his wake.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 11:39 AM

2014-04-18T11:39:00-04:00

HOLY COW! I am actually just destroyed looking at this article.  I find this disturbing to levels I can't even describe with words.  Toxic Leaders? Really?  Have I seen some bad leaders?  Oh yea, they are out there and always will be. They will get weeded out over time.  <div>The thing I am hung up on is:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">"Back in those days Soldiers stood at Parade Rest to NCOs out of respect and courtesy for the respect for the position earned. Heck, junior NCOs stood at parade rest to senior NCOs. Soldiers stood at attention to officers. When junior Soldiers passed seniors, they gave a proper greeting (unit motto or simply "good morning, Sir)."</span><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">Are you serious?  Soldiers no longer do this?  And no one sees a problem with that?  Somebody please tell me I just read this wrong!</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div>

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Apr 21 at 2014 8:58 AM

2014-04-21T08:58:36-04:00

<p>Being a great leader and a toxic leader are two different things. Great leaders stand up for their Soldiers, enforce standards and give proper respect. In return, Soldiers, without even knowing it, will maintain their discipline and emulate their leader. Toxic leaders will DEMAND respect by yelling, cursing and degrading Soldiers. In return, their Soldiers will be undiscipline, have no respect and not give a crap about standards. </p><p> </p><p>It all starts with diginity and respect. We all want it and your Soldiers deserve it. </p>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 9:48 AM

2014-04-21T09:48:14-04:00

MAJ Oberg-<br>I think this is a great discussion point and I agree with much of what is being said on this post.  I believe, like many, that we are getting danger close to taking the concept of a "toxic leader" too far and applying that tag to every leader that a subordinate takes issue with.  I have been fortunate enough in my career that I had some absolutely outstanding leaders who have and continue to mentor me- these are the leaders that I try and emulate.  However, I do believe there are toxic leaders in the military and just as in many of the posted articles, there are particular behavioral traits that identify them.  Working for a leader who has high expectations is quite different from working for a leader who accepts nothing as "good enough" or a "good start"- let's be honest, how often do we hit our boss' intent on the first go- there is always refinement to be had.  But the cornerstone of the Army's definition of leadership is "influence".  As we have all learned in books and experience, you cannot lead two people the exact same way- and great leaders take the time to know their subordinates and make adjustments to their leadership style and interactions to develop that "influence".  This profession is a team effort, we all have a role to fill and if we want to be successful, we all have to do our job to the best of our ability.  But when people genuinely detest being at work, are getting physically ill walking into the office, and eventually stop caring, I believe these are the fruits of toxic leadership.  Thanks Sir! <br>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 12:44 PM

2014-04-28T12:44:56-04:00

It depends on that unit. Soldiers will always base their feelings off of how the leaders leads or that leader's personality. It will always fall on either side of the spectrum. Plus I think if that leader isn't taking the time to get to know his/her soldiers of the unit, then that leader really has its back up against a wall. I have no problem with them enforcing the standard in terms of discipline and so forth but if that leader doesn't show appreciation for what their soldiers do for that particular leader then all I can say is that it makes it easier for the leader to be branded as being toxic.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Jul 21 at 2014 3:55 PM

2014-07-21T15:55:49-04:00

What truly makes a leader Toxic? Let me explain; If a leader shows up and acts negatively, does not support his soldiers by being Fair or Impartial. If he does not show his troops he cares for their welfare, then he is Toxic. That means he has to lead by example, needs to show his troops what he/she is asking, is somethign they have done previously. If a leader, takes the time, gets to know his troops, ensures the troops are in the know, is fair in his treatment, the troops will respond in turn. They will give their all to make that leader shine.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Sep 17 at 2014 8:57 PM

2014-09-17T20:57:29-04:00

Sir,
I agree that many leaders have been called toxic, but may not portray toxic traits. In other instances, I think these leaders who do have toxic traits go out of there way to cover it up, and are not necessarily toxic in all matters or towards all soldiers in their command. I believe leaders in my command are toxic to me, but not to many otheres within the command. Other members of the command have also noticed a biased from these individuals towards me. I am the type of soldier that speaks up and questions leadership when I feel something is unjustified, unethical, or blantly against regulations. This commonly gets me labeled as a troublemaker by poor leaders. Good leaders, however, apreciate these things being pointed out so they can appropriate measures to correct them. It is possible to differentiate between bad leaders with toxic traits and toxic leadership, but in the end do we want either in the military?

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 16 at 2014 10:30 PM

2014-10-16T22:30:21-04:00

The concept of "toxic leadership" is definitely not a term to toss around lightly. To me a toxic leader is one that the entire organization (or at least the majority of it) does not respect. This could be for a variety of reasons, but the main thing is that so many people refuse to respect the leader.

There is a quote that I vaguely remember. At the risk of butchering it, it says that when an entire organization is failing, the smart thing to do is replace the leader.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 9:26 AM

2014-11-14T09:26:33-05:00

Maj Oberg, in my lectures on the Sociology of a BureaucraZy, we find Innovators, Caretakers, and Undertakers. The "Toxic Boss Syndrome" falls under the Undertaker--whose negative approach becomes the main distraction. Caretakers follow both the Undertaker and the Innovator--when it is in their best interest. When Innovation is rewarded we have a greater paradigm shift. Consider also the model of Frustration, Confrontation, Escalation. The model repeats itself higher and higher until the source of the frustration is relieved. People who complain about "toxic" leaders are too often correct, in that they were not treated with the minimum of dignity and respect under conditions of Title VII (Hostile Work Environment). However, there are always those who throw frivolous penalty flags at the leader to divert attention from their own lack of skills. The true Toxic Leader has no balanced Kick to Pat Ratio. Everything deserves a kick. There are indeed people in between whom are simply frustrated; who don't know how to effectively lead. That in itself can be toxic.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Nov 15 at 2014 12:47 PM

2014-11-15T12:47:08-05:00

I had an OIC several years ago who was the embodiment of a toxic leader: surly, arrogant, standoffish, narcissistic, and cocksure. All hallmarks of an insecure and untested leader. This officer lasted a year at the command and about eight months as our OIC. We had a command climate review not long after he took over and he got slaughtered on it. Apparently, he was the only one whom this surprised. He actually sat everybody down and gave a nearly two-hour rebuttal of everything people complained about after the fact.

He got transferred elsewhere not long after that, perhaps because of that survey. One of his worst habits, and he was in more than a few, was his reluctance or downright intransigence when it came to listening to or even seeking out the council of his senior NCO corps, the Chiefs Mess in Navy parlance. I said right after he transferred, "If he listens to his Mess, he has a chance. If he doesn't, he won't last a year." Should've put money on the table. He lasted eight months then got detached for cause.

It's not like me to air that kind of dirty laundry, but I'm illustrating a point: the most underrated quality of any leader anywhere, and this has been proven time and again, is the ability and the willingness to LISTEN. I'm as guilty of not doing it enough as anybody. Nevertheless, we as NCOs should make it a goal to better our listening skills. Hell, my wife tells me that to this day! Additionally, as leaders, we need to be humble, i.e., not so full of ourselves, that we're unapproachable or, God forbid, start believing our own publicity.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-11-15T15:09:17-05:00

It depends on the circumstance. We as human beings, i feel anyway, tend to push fault of the other individual. Discipline is absolutely a necessity. I feel new recruits(especially younger gen) are often self entitled. The old days seem somewhat more organized as today many new recruits are very complacent. BTW my dad was in the army in 1981 i think. Ive only been in but 6 years. we have both seen changes in structure. So I only know how to base my opinion on stories from "old timers". I have had my fair share of being yelled at however the person i am most frustrated is myself. I have been yelled at beyond reason one time. but the rest i think could have been avoided had i been doing the right thing.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Nov 15 at 2014 3:13 PM

2014-11-15T15:13:20-05:00

This is a good post, MAJ Oberg. I like to think of toxic in one of its most accurate definitions: 'acting as or having the effect of a poison; poisonous'. With this understanding, a toxic leader is one who 'poisons' the organization. Selfishness is one of the most shared characteristics of toxic leaders. A selfish leader is not really a leader. They are abusive and manipulative, and they make their living by having the Soldiers beneath them or equal to them doing all of the work while taking the credit for it. This is just one of the many ways that organizations are poisoned. I have come face-to-face with quite a few of these toxic leaders, and it's not that hard to understand the difference between someone who is trying to do what's right and someone who is just looking out for themselves. I refer to people of this nature by their pay grade rather than their rank, because they are concerned more about the pay of the grade than the duties of the rank.

Standards and discipline have never been poisonous to anything. They are the health of an organization - the reason why it runs correctly and why its people are not in trouble every week. Asking people to do what's right, even if you're loud about it, doesn't make you poisonous. Asking them to do what's right while you're doing something completely different, or the 'Do as I say, not as I do' mentality, makes you poisonous.

Response by SGT Philip Popa made Nov 26 at 2014 7:53 PM

2014-11-26T19:53:50-05:00

Well, when a commander of a company stands in front of his unit and says, I quote, " I am not here for you, I don't care about you. I am here for myself and that is all that matters". I believe that what he is saying is bound not to have people like them. And in the two months he has been commanding this unit has more than once proved it in thought and deed.

I remember when you used to be able to say what was on your mind. When it was ok to hurt someone's feelings, the thought was it would make you stronger. I am sure it did, but some of it wasn't acceptable.

There are toxic leaders out there. Just seems no one wants to take the time to actually look into the issue and do something about it

Response by CW4 Scot Cowie made Nov 26 at 2014 8:35 PM

2014-11-26T20:35:20-05:00

A leader is toxic when they are there because of what power they can project. Granted at the lower levels its not much but I have seen a few that will do the total opposite of what their NCOs and Warrant Officers reccomend just because they are in command. Not just once or twice but many times. Those were the hardest times.
That is toxic.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 1:32 PM

2014-11-28T13:32:02-05:00

It is definitely a buzzword that is over used and misunderstood by many. With that being said, I think their is a lot of it in today's military, the Air Force especially. Most people promoted by a broken or infected system take offense to the fact that it is/may be broken, because it is a system that they succeeded in.

Toxic leaders are those who put their own career or self serving interests before the the mission and unit.

Response by SFC Scott Parkhurst made Dec 3 at 2014 7:54 PM

2014-12-03T19:54:56-05:00

All I know is that you gain respect by showing respect. I would never have my Soldiers (when I was Platoon Sgt. and or Squad leader etc.) do things that I wouldn't do. If I asked them to do certain "chores", then I would do them right along side them...which at times blew them away. But they also understood that there were times I couldn't and so it was easier on me to do my other job without having this feeling my Troops thinking I was a lazy NCO or something. I would always check on them too. That IS an NCO's job by the way. You don't have to name call or yell your ass off to make a point with them. I got more high moral with my tactics then any other Platoon and it was just simply out of "respect" and "talking" and "caring" and yes and certain way of pushing them to want to better themselves because they wanted too not because someone else was making them....And no, I am a total non-believer of the "stress" cards!! Maybe it's the police officer (former) in me and this is how I deal with folks. I never swore, yelled or any kind crap like that, so I used this method as a SSG. and it really took me far and it worked. Even during war time(s)...We all each have our method's....

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2014 5:23 PM

2014-12-17T17:23:59-05:00

The tools a leader has to lead are those that are represented in the ranks of subordinate officers and NCOs. When there is a break down in good order and discipline in organizations it is sometimes due to the failure at lower levels which in turn forces senior leaders to do the jobs of the front line leaders.

@ SSG James Gammage, you are spot on with your examples of indicators. As Brian Oberg stated, just because someone raised their voice at you (without doing those things identified in SSG Gammage's indicators below) and you get your feelings hurt, does not mean the leader is toxic.

As I truly believe NO soldier gets up in the morning and says "I can't wait to screw up today". Having said that leaders must be able to discipline subordinates and then subordinates have to recognize what they did wrong, correct the behavior and continue on to complete your mission. All of which can be done without being "Toxic".

Ken Blanchard wrote a book called the one minute manager. If you read his teachings, he states that you can be mad, but be made for only 5 minutes and be done with it and there is no need to hold a grudge.

In the end, this all comes down to the organizational culture and how it is fostered by leaders. Bad culture = bad environment = problems and we all have a part to play in it.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 17 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-08-17T14:15:47-04:00

The spreading effect is the difference between a bad and a toxic leader. A bad leader is a bad leader. But if a leader is so bad that their behavior causes pervasive negative second and third order effects in the unit, then that spreading effect is what makes them toxic. Bad is bad. But being so bad that you negatively effect everyone around you? That's toxic..

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 17 at 2015 2:21 PM

2015-08-17T14:21:00-04:00

Toxic leaders are usually narcissistic and ego centric and really don't care about the welfare of subordinates. They will yell, use fear, intimidation to lead subordinates.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Apr 27 at 2016 7:29 PM

2016-04-27T19:29:12-04:00

A toxic leader is somebody who can change self-motivated, patriotic and highly capable service members with a high potential for success in the military and drive them away from any desire to serve in any capacity LTC Private RallyPoint Member
Toxic leaders could be somebody like the narcissistic and sadistic Niedermeyer in the Animal House movie; but, frequently it tends to be leaders who belittle those who hold opinions which differ from their own. Toxic leaders surround themselves with yes men, willingly take credit for what others do and push blame onto subordinates very readily.SSgt Private RallyPoint Member SSG Leonard J W.
Thanks for tagging me SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 3 at 2017 8:43 AM

2017-11-03T08:43:24-04:00

I’m wondering if maybe the troop should look at themself in the mirror. Could they be the toxic ingredient? Try to look at it
From the leader’s viewpoint. Write down
Your points and be honest. What do you
do that could aggravate others, Is the way you carry out duties? Do you try to
Do that extra 25% or what “just completes the mission”. Do you just say “yes Sergeant” or do you put some gusto into
It; YES SERGEANT!”...or “YES SIR!”..
do you just plod along along and do your
Job assignment or do you attack with gusto and cover all the points, even what
Is not in the open. Uniform clean and pressed? Or just clean ! Are you squared away or got loose ends. ?
So look in the mirror before you go off on that alleged toxic leader over his petty nuances and his overbearing personna.
I’m looking at this from a NCO’s point
Toward another enlisted person, Sir..
i haven’t come across any officers, W.O’s
That could use a dressing down in my time .. well maybe a few.. but the officers
Keep on top of their own pretty good..
I had arrived at abase that had a shakedown and it wsn’t pretty.. A wing Zcmdr snd a Base Cmdr and admin officer were fired as were some section heads..
what went on before I got there, I don’t know, Sir. I showed up and was in the van
And a Capt and CMSG was on the gate
with the Security Police .. they asked everybody to exit and the Capt took the two officers to one side of the vehicle and Chief took us enlisted to the other side.
I got looked over real good, I knew my uniform was right and clean as was my haircut and hygiene. The others were
Acceptable.. one Sgt. He called away from us and gave him a ticket.. I found out later it was for a haircut and worn ribbons.. ..
I seen two officers had citations .. dang!
and their uniforms looked good. We proceeded and Got let off at our respective units. More stuff happened later that I seen as part of the shakedown.
It was a disease called complacency..
and it got stopped ..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2018 11:53 PM

2018-02-07T23:53:11-05:00

Perhaps toxic is a word used too much. I see it both ways and I see things for how they are. Enforce the standard of course, but don’t go out purposely trying to ruin people. Yes!! Hold subordinate leaders accountable. You do this by empowering them. It’s basic common sense. Put a Sergeant or Officer in charge and they run it how they run it just so long as they know the end result standard to what ever we’re talking about. Micromanage every aspect and don’t empower them; you can’t really hold them accountable. When they fail which they will if they are not empowered to make decisions there is no one to blame but who ever didn’t empower that subordinate. The ranking echelons naturally crumble if ncos like platoon sergeants/squad leaders are not empowered. Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties they will not have to accomplish mine. This only applies if you gave that nco the opportunity to perform in the first place and empowered them with the responsibility & accountability. An toxic leader will micromanage not empower and when what ever fails blame the subordinate. This applies to all ranks from general going to private. It’s like even exercising commands. If the battalion commander came down to a subordinate company and purposely told that company commander what to circle on company echelon reports or what ever and then of course something goes wrong and blames the captain that’s an example of a toxic leader. Hard nosed leadership like yelling, counseling, insensitive general military demeanor, hurting people’s feelings to me alone doesn’t qualify as toxic leadership. Also being a double edged sword people always talk about toxic leadership as if there was no such thing as a toxic subordinate or toxic Soldier. This is just my peace though. I’ve had toxic leaders, bad leaders, good leaders, and great leaders. All have something in common as time passes and your in longer than a minute. They come and go. Survive the toxic ones and wait them out for one of you leave. Thrive with good leadership and learn something. Lead how you lead and always focus on mission and welfare of soldiers. Anyway good topic.