Tradoc and the role of NCO students?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 00:09:41 -0500

Tradoc regulations greatly limit the authority and ability to train and lead soldier of student NCO's. Due to being in student status it is strictly forbidden that student NCO's give an event oriented counseling or conduct any sort of corrective training. Is this an issue that should be reviewed and adjusted? Outside of the standard on the spot corrections that all soldiers are responsible to make, should tradoc also leave the power for NCO's to be leaders in the hands of those NCO's? Please give me you thoughts.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 12:19 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 00:19:20 -0500

SSG Cooper, shouldn't counselings and corrective training be left to the AIT students' NCO support channel? When I was in AIT (2012), if a student NCO or permanent party NCO had a problem with a student, they wrote down the student's name and unit, then contacted our 1SG.

The 1SG would then put that student on extra details, take away Phase 5 privileges, give a counseling and/or punish them with Article 15s/UCMJ.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jan 22 at 2014 12:37 AM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 00:37:29 -0500

I know this doesn't happen/not allowed perhaps but I believe an NCO has every right to submit a counseling statement to the TRADOC Soldier's NCO, and then let their cadre handle it from there.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 4:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 04:54:48 -0500

SSG Cooper,<div><br></div><div>I have both worked in a TRADOC environment as Cadre, and been a NCO student during reclassification AIT.  The student NCO is there to be a student, however, general military authority is never removed from that NCO.  Since that NCO is not in a leadership role, it is not his/her place to provide event oriented or any formal counseling, nor corrective training as it can take away from the NCOs educational opportunity. </div><div><br></div><div>That being said, while as a student NCO, I still took time to informally coach and mentor my fellow students, enforce the standards through on the spot corrections, and when necessary report gross violations to the appropriate cadre.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 5:42 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 05:42:42 -0500

I remember when I reclassed back in 2009 and I was a Sergeant at the time.  Their was a female AIT student whose hair was very well out of regulation.  I only told the female soldier that she had needed to fix it and gave her regulatory guidance as well and she went and told her instructor that I had harrassed her.  The instructor told me to never say anything to any of the IET soldiers because I was only a student here.  I should have a battle buddy with me but it somewhat upset me because I am still an NCO and I should be able to correct soldiers when they are wrong.  I felt like at the time, all of my power was taken.  With that being said, I do think you should be able to make on the spot corrections and understanbly, the Cadre are there to handle the rest.  Just like you are a soldier 24/7, you are an NCO 24/7.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 22 at 2014 8:24 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:24:55 -0500

Exactly what part of 350-6 are you referring to? I see you referencing it but not any certain section.

I reclassed and was a SSG and was inherently the Class Leader. I wrote counseling statements all the time. Even recommended for UCMJ. I believe the intent is so that students can focus on their studies. A good NCO can do both. So I'm interested in reading what you are referencing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 10:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:02:18 -0500

Student NCO interaction has only recently been modified from the Student / Instructor Relationship... I would say yes however it is the Students responsibility to ask instructor's questions and when most don't and are totally blown away by their own poor performance it is the result of them not asking questions earlier. As far as disciplinary actions and the powers an NCO has to determine to use at certain levels we are essentially powerless. I was told I cannot even ask a student by regs what his profile was for. Now with that said the student told me he had a no ACH wearing profile for a herniated disk in his back. Initially I felt he was not worthy to carry a weapon but the doctor who wrote his medical profile stated FTX, Weapons, the whole caboodle with exception to ACH can be accomplished. So now TRADOC doctors have sent a message you can fight without all your gear its okay to do so. WE TRAIN AS WE FIGHT and a student soldier brand new to the Army for one has no place to perform or support his brothers and sisters if he is non-deployable. Your initial question of on the spot corrections YES we as NCO's should be doing that.... No according to the CSM of the Army in Afghanistan while serving with 159th AVN BDE 101st ABN DIV my fellow NCO's were told that when new Soldiers arrive to the unit for actual duty THEIR duty station; that is when the standards begin ... not in training. If it was misperceived or misunderstood I apologize but that was what we as NCO's took from the leadership that while in training they are untouchable and when they arrive to their first duty station that is when the military standards and traditions will be instilled. TRADOC should absolutely leave the responsibility on individual and teams of NCO's who are instructing and preparing young minds and leadership minds for the next mission ahead.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 22 at 2014 11:06 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:06:10 -0500

Actually, developmental couneling is MANDATORY for all students, and it does not give any specifics on who can and cannot perform them. You may be running into some local guidance. Here is what the reg specifies:

TR 350-6

b. The following formal counseling requirements must be met for all IET Soldiers-

(1) Individual counseling should be conducted within 72 hours of arrival at the training

unit and continued throughout training to keep the Soldier informed of their progress.

(2) Counseling at the conclusion of each training phase.

(3) Counseling on the provisions for additional training, when they are not able to meet

established standards and requirements (for example, new start, rehabilitative transfer, remedial

training).

(4) All performance and professional counseling is documented on DA Form 4856

(Developmental Counseling Form).

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 11:10 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:10:32 -0500

We had quite a few NCO students when i went through AIT, and they had next to no power at all. We were told not to call at ease for them, and they were treated pretty much the same as we were, minus the fact that they could have cell phones. I think when it comes to customs and courtesy, they should be treated the same as the instructors. I also think they should be able to make on the spot corrections as all soldiers should) and to an extend conduct corrective training. But if the NCO student has to write counseling and deal with the paperwork side of corrective training, it takes their attention away from learning their new MOS, or whatever they are in training for.

I think that its especially important for NCO students to excel, especially in the case of a re-class, because when they proceed to a line unit they will already be in a leadership position where they will, presumably, need to train soldiers and be as good at their job as they can be.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2014 2:24 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:24:27 -0500

I want to thank everybody for the input and differing viewpoints. I posed this question in order to gain further understanding of an issue and have definitely gotten that from this discussion and for that I am truly grateful for the responses received. I feel like after this I have a better understanding of the position involved here and can see that my basing of opinions off of what people say should still be verified.(this is a lesson that periodically throughout my career I have re-learned on several occasions.) I will definitely look to find out further from my current situation what is truly regulation and what is local unit directive. Again thank you to everyone for helping increase my knowledge level and helping me to become a better NCO.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 9:37 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:37:12 -0500

<font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">This has always been a touchy issue, when I had reclasses as a DS I would treat them with respect and dignity they earned commensurate with their rank. I would brief all the trainees to do the same. As in calling at ease for them we would offer this as well but to be honest it confused the NCO in training more than anything. Privates would call at ease for an NCO in training and that NCO would snap to parade rest thinking the Privates called at ease for a Drill Sergeant, pure comedy.</span></font>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 9:41 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:41:45 -0500

I think NCO's are fine being the Student PLT SGT and doing corrective action/basic counselings. I don't think they should be the ones called at 2AM however when one of the students in their PLT is jacked up. That is the Cadres responsibility. Unfortunately most of the student NCO's in my AIT were actually the ones breaking most of the rules by hanging out with AIT students, encouraging drinking on school nights, and having sexual relations with students. 2 even got Bars of reenlistment when they got caught playing strip Beer Pong with 18yr old female AIT students...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 9:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:54:53 -0500

As a previous AIT Instructor, I had several NCO's as students. I let them be an NCO and expected them to uphold standards, corrective action and responsibility. It was learning point for my SPC and below in following an NCO and utilizing proper respect for grade and authority. Thankfully, I had great students and NCO's so it was never to much of an issue, but I think the fear instilled helped!! I expect a lot from my juniors and make it very clear, and that they can expect the same from myself as well.

Response by SPC Robert Patrick made Jan 24 at 2014 11:25 AM

SPC Robert Patrick — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:25:56 -0500

I know I am not an NCO as of yet but personally I think it would be good for the growth of Soldier in AIT that the rank structure in the classroom should also be followed it will allow them to get use to the counseling and it may produce a higher quality of soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 1:34 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 01:34:23 -0500

I did TRADOC for three years and I'm going back in about eight months. It's not the student NCOs' problem. They're there to learn, just like the joes. At Fort Gordon, the Soldiers have squad leaders and platoon sergeants. The classes are either run by NCOs or civilians, and if civilian-run, there are NCOs working there as military liaisons to deal with Soldiers acting the fool. There are plenty of cadre there to handle such things. I assume a similar standard exists across the board. An NCO in TRADOC shouldn't have to deal with that mess in addition to learning their new MOS.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 3:43 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 03:43:04 -0500

I recently re-classed as a SPC (P) at Fort Gordon. AIT for that was a year and during the entire time I was student leadership. If there was downtime, I would talk to the Soldiers about what they could expect and give them advise on things they should pay attention to when they got to their new units. No barracks lawyer stuff, all real world no bs good info was given ( I re-classed from 42A and had a lot of knowledge to pass to them.)

When I had a problem with a Soldier I was allowed to make on the spot corrections, get their name and move on, then I would let the Cadre know immediately, so that if there was some hurt feelings from the trainee, there would already be knowledge of what happened.

There were NCO's in the same position as me, and they tried to go further than that and flex their muscle's, which really just made their time as a Student more stressful because the Students knew that they didn't have the power to enforce the threat, so they would pretty much make a game out of it and piss off the NCO Student. They still graduated, but possibly didn't get the full experience because they were more worried about other issues that were out of their control.

If you are a Student NCO, embrace the downtime you have while in a Student status. Use the time to reflect and learn.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 9:08 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:08:23 -0500

<font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">EOD Soldiers have a bit of perspective on this. We attend one of a very few schools, perhaps the only school in the Army, attended by Officers, NCOs, and Soliders in the same class. This school, NAVSCOLEOD, also has IET and MOST Soldiers in the same class. We I began the school we had very little interaction with the IET Soldiers, typical set up, we were basically told to ignore them anywhere but class. Over the course of the year, our interaction with them was slowly expanded. Near the end I was the NCOIC of the Army students in my class. We had an Army CPT as our OIC and between the two of us we ran the Army students in the class. We ran PT and helped the Soldiers as needed. It worked out great, worlds did not shatter. Long story short let NCOs be NCOs. </span></font>

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 5:03 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:03:23 -0500

I am currently in a TRADOC unit involved with IET students. It is a pain trying to correct Soldiers in this type of environment. Most of the IET students get butt hurt so easy and want to file all type of complaints they can think of. Its sad to hear while your in processing "watch your back because it's the Privates word over yours." In my opinion they haven't earned the right to be called a Soldier until they have completed all of their training. I remember back in '07 when I was in BNCOC and an IET student walked passed me and my buddy saying "whats up DUDE?" All we could say is WTF and report to the cadre because we already received the briefing saying that we couldn't correct or say anything to the IET students.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2014 1:09 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 May 2014 01:09:20 -0400

I think when you are going through training as an nco, you should be worrying about training. Let cadre worry about developing these soldiers. You are there in a student status. Although you should report anything that needed to be reported. When I was an AIT platoon sergeant, I utilized my prior spys. They let me know what they saw on a daily basis (stuff I never saw) so I could gauge the climate in the platoon and the Soldiers did not get away with nearly as much.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Jun 27 at 2017 8:15 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 08:15:59 -0400

Just an old AF NCO's opinion here but I would think an NCO in "student status" would still be able to handle non-training type of infractions (ie: uniform corrections, Customs/Courtesy, etc) while leaving the class issues to cadre (ie: failure to complete training tasks, substandard performance, PT failures, etc). I can't see where someone who is learning an MOS would be in a position to counsel another student on MOS specific issues. I agree the student NCO probably should not be issuing written counseling but I see nothing wrong with said NCO saying, "Hey Soldier, your collar is flipped. Please fix that." Anything more should rightfully be addressed by cadre.