Trivia: Artillery's use of the 14 digit grid system

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 15:14:16 -0400

This is just some fun trivia for the artillery community on RP or anyone else who wants to participate.

Almost everybody in the Army uses the MGRS system to navigate, pinpoint location, etc. What group in the artillery community uses a fourteen digit grid system, what is the name of that system, and why is it used by that specific community of redlegs?

*I'm a dumb-dumb. There are two groups in the artillery community who use this system.

Part one of the answer:

Alright, you guys have had a lot of good discussion here! So, I'll give you the name of the system and leave the second part of the question open to more debate.

The system is... Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system

Your DAGR can be set to give you a grid in UTM!

Now, who in the Artillery uses it... And why?

*It's 2122hrs on 2010502 and we have two winners, Major Weiss who said MLRS and SGT Elphick for stating surveyors. Again, excellent work and a great showing from the folks on RP!

Now, for a brief explanation?

Your typical MGRS based map is normally 100,000m, based on a grid zone identifier in order to place the map geo-spatially on the face of the earth in it's proper place. While this has been acceptable for traditional cannon artillery (max range approx 27k), MLRS can fire well over 350k. Anyone who has done charts and darts will tell you that's a hellova lotta maps! It can also lead to all sorts of confusion with the calculations when your round travels across 3-6 different sheets (potentially, given the azimuth of fire). So in order to ensure unique grid zone identifiers and better deal with the extended range of MLRS rounds we use the UTM system. Please read the link below for a technical explanation. Surveyors (military anyways) use this system because when they survey a point on the ground their accuracy is within 1 square meter (or better), and when they label the stake with the 14 digit UTM grid, that grid is unique to that point on the earth and will not be found anywhere else on the planet specifically because of the identifier used by UTM. They made it dummy-proof.

Now, to avoid confusion please understand that these two systems hold hands in that they work together. When I look at the top of my fire control panel it shows me an 8-digit at all times so I can quickly verify my location on a map. When I start up my fire control panel it insists I give it a unique 14 digit grid in UTM so it can accurately place my launcher on the face of the planet. The last 4 digits in the easting and the last 4 digits in the northing are the same in both systems, its the other 6 that specify exactly what spot on the earth I am to within 1 square meter.

Again, this discussion is nowhere near over. Fascinating topic in my opinion, and you all have come up with some really good stuff.

Universal Transverse Mercator coordinate system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) conformal projection uses a 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system to give locations on the surface of the Earth. Like the traditional method of latitude and longitude, it is a horizontal position representation, i.e. it is used to identify locations on the Earth independently of vertical position. However, it differs from that method in several respects.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 1 at 2014 3:28 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Thu, 01 May 2014 15:28:33 -0400

I have no idea of the answer but wouldn't a 14 digit grid get you down to the millimeter? I see no reason why anyone would need to be so precise. Especially with artillery.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made May 1 at 2014 4:38 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Thu, 01 May 2014 16:38:42 -0400

This seems like a tough question. I googled "14 digit grid system" and all I got was this discussion!

I look forward to learning the answer.

Response by CPT Laurie H. made May 1 at 2014 5:48 PM

CPT Laurie H. — Thu, 01 May 2014 17:48:38 -0400

Does this have something to do with New Zealand? I learned about all sorts of international topo maps in college and I remember NZ using some weird 14 digit system.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 1 at 2014 7:58 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 01 May 2014 19:58:04 -0400

14 digits would be a square centimeter, I think. I have never heard of this. Speaking in square centimeters is for surgeons with scalpels, not an area fire weapon. The King of Battle does whatever he wants, when he wants. There can only be one king. Redlegs!!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 1 at 2014 8:00 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:00:57 -0400

10 digit grids are all that are needed for artillery. I think this is an urban legend. When your artillery shell weighs 100 lbs and you are shooting 7 km away, you're not going to hit a damn thing within a centimeter box.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 1 at 2014 8:03 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:03:02 -0400

How can you use a 1 cm square target grid when your round has a blast radius of like 30m? Now I am getting frustrated.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 1 at 2014 8:04 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:04:44 -0400

If this is all made up, we are going to down vote the hell out of you and crush your Influence Points. :-)

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made May 2 at 2014 8:59 AM

MSG Wade Huffman — Fri, 02 May 2014 08:59:31 -0400

Still waiting for the answer to this one... if there is one! Come on SSG Taylor.. let us off the hook!

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made May 2 at 2014 11:24 AM

MAJ Jim Woods — Fri, 02 May 2014 11:24:13 -0400

I am dating myself here but...... when did it go beyond 8 digits? I called in Artillery with 6 digits occasionally. Especially when we were under triple canopy jungle and...... I know this is very revealing, weren't really sure where we were. OK, it only happened a few times and it was really DARK! (sarcasm)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2014 3:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 May 2014 15:57:30 -0400

See above for the answer to part one!

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made May 2 at 2014 4:24 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Fri, 02 May 2014 16:24:06 -0400

If I had to guess which group uses UTM for their artillery fire, I would guess naval gunfire. If It's in the Army, then perhaps MLRS units. Basically anything that needs to fire outside of one's immediate tactical map.

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 2 at 2014 5:01 PM

SGT James Elphick — Fri, 02 May 2014 17:01:08 -0400

From what I have been able to find it is used by the surveyors (13T), hopefully that is the who. As to the why? Again from what I can find it is used for the establishment of a Zone of Responsibility by the FDC. Also it looks like, as MAJ Weiss said, to transfer from one grid zone to another, so that would be MLRS units.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2014 5:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 May 2014 17:15:52 -0400

I have been a 13E/13D for quite a few years and I have seen the 14 digit grid system on the LCU and AFATDS. The other 4 numbers are just the grid reference numbers. When using the 14 digit grid your 1st 2 numbers on the easting and northing are simply your map sheet reference numbers. For example, if you have the following grid: 3690200/9842500, the "36" and "98" only tell you which map sheet to look on. You are still using your 10 digit grid for location on that particular map sheet.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2016 1:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Dec 2016 13:24:19 -0500

13R. When we relayed coordinates to the gun batteries we used a 14 digit grid.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Dec 5 at 2016 1:58 PM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Mon, 05 Dec 2016 13:58:35 -0500

Back in day people used to say Artillery guys were dummies but today you have to be pretty damn smart on M109A7 and M777 w/GPS/AFCS we use Eastern, Northern and Altitude to get that 14 digit grid system, We would use a hand held PLUGGER PADS systems to update the our main hub systems for our howitzer updates. That's from setting all them Paladin positions up in the open desert in Kuwait and Iraq as a Gunny.

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Dec 5 at 2016 2:07 PM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Mon, 05 Dec 2016 14:07:49 -0500

The one of the reason we 14 digit grids is because on the move we don't use Aiming Circles NO more we use our wing man howitzers. we hardly use spades to dig in and the AFCS and the DUR pick up displacement on the ground on you have to be with in + or - .1 mil for displacement and the gun automatically picks up using the GPS systems to do that. pretty cool shit I say, I'm not sure if the howitzers have stabilizers on them or not its' been a few years for me, so correct me if I'm wrong "REDLEGS" When I was in Kuwait we really got to see how the system was designed we had United Defense with us while we were writing our new TACSOP and if we had problems with our guns and systems there were right there to adjust things.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2018 8:48 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:48:08 -0400

M119A3, M777A2, M109A6 all use the 14 digit grid not just MLRS and survey

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2018 8:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:52:41 -0400

And Alttitude has nothing to do with getting your 14 digit grid, but your false easting and northing have everything to do with getting it