Uniform buttoning a sign of indiscipline?

2014-05-05T12:45:43-04:00

Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.

The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."

Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.

Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?

I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 12:50 PM

2014-05-05T12:50:09-04:00

I don't think having a back pocket unbuttoned shows a lack of discipline. I do keep mine buttoned as a matter of security for my wallet. I have had my wallet slip out while sitting in certain style seats, so I keep the pocket buttoned.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 12:57 PM

2014-05-05T12:57:41-04:00

I admit my back pocket is unbutton about half the time because I don't always remember to button it. If I'm going to take my top off for some reason I will double check to ensure it is closed. But I don't always think of it when my top is on. Am I right...probably not. Am I lacking discipline I don't think so

Response by SSG Robert Burns made May 5 at 2014 1:05 PM

2014-05-05T13:05:42-04:00

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Under that logic then everyone with a button undone lacks integrity. What about Velcro? It doesn't say a thing about that. So I can have my Velcro undone and Im cool?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 1:17 PM

2014-05-05T13:17:05-04:00

SFC Downin,

Every button, zipper, and piece of velcro is always properly affixed on my uniform... Except for my right rear pocket where my wallet goes. That pocket gets buttoned when I am in the motor pool or the field. I do this for ease of access. Am I right? No. Will the US military fail because I don't button my right rear pocket? No. Can anyone even tell? Not unless they start staring at my butt... Hey, are you looking at my butt?

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made May 5 at 2014 1:17 PM

2014-05-05T13:17:59-04:00

This reminds me of the conversation about wearing your PC from your doorstep to your car.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 1:20 PM

2014-05-05T13:20:48-04:00

Back pocket buttons are the brown M&Ms of the Army. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwHO2HnwfnA

Van Halen...Brown M&Ms

A Different Kind of Truth 2012 Eddie Van Halen Alex Van Halen Wolfgang Van Halen David Lee Roth

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 5 at 2014 1:39 PM

2014-05-05T13:39:23-04:00

With the exception of when I lived in the barracks as a young PFC/SPC and when in attendance at PLDC and BNCOC where I was subjected to a wall locker display SOP, I never in 26 years buttoned the right rear button on my BDUs/DCUs/ACUs. I do not for one second believe that this made me a bad leader or that I ever looked like a bag-o-ass.

Response by SGT Kristopher Lather made May 5 at 2014 1:54 PM

2014-05-05T13:54:08-04:00

If the flaps are flat against the pocket and not "Bird Flapping".... who seriously has the time to go around checking people ? Would this also be incorporated with Courtesy Patrols. I keep my back pockets buttoned only because People steal, and I don't feel like being pick pocketed for my wallet.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made May 5 at 2014 1:59 PM

2014-05-05T13:59:44-04:00

I keep a tourniquet in my back pocket. Those buttons could cost you your life.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 2:05 PM

2014-05-05T14:05:01-04:00

I voted for button your pockets but want to elaborate. I also carry a wallet in my back pocket but I do button my pocket. I constantly need my CAC card so I just put it in my front pocket to avoid having to constantly button/unbutton the buttons. I have read the replies here and agree the Army will not necessarily fail because of a couple buttons, but where does it stop?! I could do that same scenario all day long with different things for example

White socks: saw this all the time as a PSG
No ID tags: see it all the time in TRADOC
NO ID card: see it occasionally everywhere
Wrong belt/wrong color belt

If we let one thing go or deem it not a big deal, what else are we letting slide?

Response by 1SG Mike Case made May 5 at 2014 2:05 PM

2014-05-05T14:05:30-04:00

I would say that it has nothing to do with a lack of discipline and more for convience. I keep mine buttoned because my big country wallet will fall out if I don't. It is a good way to teach Soldiers about attention to detail when performing uniform inspections during Monday motorpool formation but sometimes people have a flair for the dramatics and like to make a problem bigger than what it really is.

Response by SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh made May 5 at 2014 2:22 PM

2014-05-05T14:22:38-04:00

Yes, that is totally what is wrong with our Army today. Once we fix this epidemic of unbutton back pockets we will once again be the world respected fighting force that we use to be.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made May 5 at 2014 2:53 PM

2014-05-05T14:53:41-04:00

In the 8.5 years I served, I never buttoned my wallet pocket but my uniform was clean and in good condition. With everything else wrong with the military, the debate over buttons should be one of the last things to talk about in regards to professionalism.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made May 5 at 2014 3:14 PM

2014-05-05T15:14:35-04:00

I don't see buttons as an issue. I will say this, if it is noticable I will request that the pocket be fixed, be it buttoned, zipped, ect.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made May 5 at 2014 3:31 PM

2014-05-05T15:31:51-04:00

Wow did not the AR 670 already state that and wow

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made May 5 at 2014 3:59 PM

2014-05-05T15:59:24-04:00

I keep all my buttons buttoned except those that I keep unbuttoned....namely the R back pocket for the wallet and the R breast pocket where I keep my CAC card. Flaps always outside the pocket, so unless you come over and lift it, you will not know it is unbuttoned....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 4:04 PM

2014-05-05T16:04:15-04:00

If the reg says keep it buttoned, and you don't keep it buttoned, are you afraid of possible repercussions from your superiors? Do you think you will lose the respect of your fellow Servicemembers? If not, you probably don't have anything to worry about. If you have to wonder about it, button your pockets. My TRADOC viewpoint: If I am correcting Soldiers for chewing gum and the wrong PT socks in formation, my pockets aren't going to be violating the regs or policy letters either.

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made May 5 at 2014 4:11 PM

2014-05-05T16:11:17-04:00

INTEGRITY - To do what is legally and morally right; even when no one is looking. (Even under my pocket flap to see if it is buttoned). <right or wrong>

AR 670-1, Chapter 3 a.(3) Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped. <right or wrong>

I wish the voting allowed a different answer. My response is that if there is a zipper, then zip it. If there are buttons, then button them. But, I would consider it a stretch to call a Senior NCO a "soup sandwich" for having the rear trouser pocket (with wallet) unbuttoned.

I do take pride in expressing to my new recruits that there are 12 pockets on their ACUs (not including the knee and elbow pad pockets). Of those 12 pockets, only two are not required to be "closed" and those are the two front trouser pockets which have not buttons, velcro, or zipper.

"I always maintain my arms, my equipment, and myself." [this includes camel backs, duffel bags, wall lockers, uniforms, etc . . . ]

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 4:17 PM

2014-05-05T16:17:17-04:00

So there's a couple of different schools of thought with this scenario.
The prevailing one I hear is that by lapsing on the small standards, we're allowing for people to lapse on bigger standards. We heard this a lot when I was deployed, that we as leaders are supposed to sweat the small stuff because if we don't, we're not sweating the big stuff either. It's the perfect example of the slippery slope fallacy. The solution was to slam everyone for the little things in the hope that the big things would simply fall into line.
Now, to address the statement that you're somehow lacking discipline for not buttoning your back pocket. The reg says we have to button our pockets. By choosing not to, you're basically deciding what regs (or parts of the reg) you're going to follow and what you're not. Leadership is going to conclude that if you're picking and choosing in that reg, you're probably picking and choosing in others.

Does it mean the end of the Army or any other service because you didn't button your pocket? I don't think so. Does it mean you're a terrible leader? No. Are you undermining your own ability to lead in a way? Yes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 4:18 PM

2014-05-05T16:18:56-04:00

I would ask what the purpose is. Who cares as long as there isnt an unprofessional appearance. My wallet is a long style billfold. I literally cant button my pocket with it in there.
There are some things that just are unnecessary. Uniform must be kept neat, and tidy looking. If you can see the button of my rear pocket (hidden by my properly sized correct length ACU top), stop looking at my rear end so closely, please.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 5 at 2014 4:40 PM

2014-05-05T16:40:03-04:00

I'm not FORMER Old School. If I wait long enough, Old School will be new again

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 5 at 2014 4:46 PM

2014-05-05T16:46:42-04:00

Was that an "accidental" reference to being an Old School Drill Sergeant? Hmmmmm Somebody knew I was going to rise to that bait

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 7:21 PM

2014-05-05T19:21:32-04:00

I don't even carry a wallet. I just carry my ID card. I workout at lunch so thats the first thing i check before my ACU top off.

Response by 1SG David Niles made May 5 at 2014 7:53 PM

2014-05-05T19:53:39-04:00

always, still do in civies' if it has buttons, it is buttoned.

Response by SPC Tyler Renick made May 5 at 2014 10:37 PM

2014-05-05T22:37:01-04:00

As a civilian now when I interview people for a job I look closely at how they are dressed, if there buttons are buttoned, did they take the time to iron their clothes, if I have the opportunity I will walk by their car and see if it looks like a homeless person lives inside, ect. If I am fixing to trust someone with a quarter of a million dollars of my own money in a service truck and tools they had better care enough to use an iron and button their sleeves.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-05-05T23:00:29-04:00

let the little things slip and its just a matter of time before theres a landslide.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2014 11:05 PM

2014-05-05T23:05:26-04:00

I wouldn't call it a lack of discipline, however, it is lacking in attention to detail. (I actually was unsure about mine, but somehow, they were all buttoned, pat on the back for me). I understand that you keep your wallet there, but technically, rules are rules. Honestly, I never really look to see if someone has them buttoned or not, not trying to be in violation of SHARP and all. I do possibly regard someone a bit higher, however, if they do take that extra step to ensure it is done. Mine was a stroke of luck, though I will button it if I notice it is unbuttoned, but the fact that mine were buttoned (today) and yours wasn't does not make me more disciplined than you.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2014 12:11 AM

2014-05-06T00:11:02-04:00

Sounds like my DSs at BCT and AIT. We did the same stand up/sit down training exercise. Mine happened to be buttoned at the time because I'm OCD on loose flaps on clothing--civilian or military--but, I first button mine when I get a new uniform, and they never get unbuttoned. I double-check after laundry, and put my wallet in my left shoulder pocket. (By the way, I'm also OCD about crooked velcro alignment!)

To your question, though. Do I think it's a lack of discipline? No, I wouldn't jump that far, but it would depend on a Soldier's rank. It could very well be lack of attention to detail (tells me something), or lack of training (tells me something else), or it could truly be lack of discipline. I'll likely figure out which by the Soldier's reaction when I question him/her about it.

Am I bothered by it, and do I go looking at backsides to determine how diligent a Soldier is? No, but when the Soldier bends over and pockets are all bent and crazy, the slackness in appearance is noticeable!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 6 at 2014 10:38 AM

2014-05-06T10:38:14-04:00

It's just a matter of priority and perspective I guess...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2014 12:22 PM

2014-05-06T12:22:59-04:00

I find that we find what rules and regulations to follow because they are near and dear to our heart. When I see a Soldier whose buttons are unbuttoned, I simply tell them to button them. I don't believe they are soup sandwich(nice adjective) or blow it out of proportion. I believe that following the simplest of rules goes a long way. If you follow the small tasks required of you, you definitely will follow the ones that require much more effort. I say this because when I was in TRADOC I recall doing all sorts of BN or what not runs with the new recruits (basic trng) at longer distances than they told us we were allowed however, if my company had planned it, it was against every reg and policy you could think of. Our chow time was right after PT in the mornings however you werent allowed to do pt with recruits within a certain timeframe before and after chow. You couldn't do pt after they ate for a period of time. So, why were we allowed to break those rules and not others? Following rules and regs begins at the top, with us leaders. Minute as WE feel they may be.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2014 12:31 PM

2014-05-06T12:31:35-04:00

I've been in the Army for 17 years and there is always an issue about pockets. If I can't utilize them and keep my wallet pocket unbuttoned then please get rid of the darn pockets.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2014 10:41 AM

2014-05-07T10:41:16-04:00

When I was a Private, i saw people get their cargo pockets ripped off and handed to them because they were unbuttoned or buttons ripped/cut off because they weren't fastened. Do I think it is a sign of a lack of discipline? Yes. The AR 670-1 (old) and DA PAM 670-1 both state that they are to be buttoned. I won't re-post, but if you read the response I gave to MAJ Ballinger, we don't get to pick and choose what standards we enforce and disregard because of our personal feelings on them. As Leaders, we enforce the standard no matter what it is. As soon as we slack on one, we have made a double standard. The lower enlisted of this generation are very smart (not always in a good way) and will see this and find ways to exploit it. I hear a lot of Leaders complain about shining boots and pressing uniforms and how we don't do it anymore and can't enforce discipline because of it. This is just one of those things we can use in place of that. Do your job as a Leader, enforce the standard, and you will reap the benefits in discipline from you Soldiers and they, in turn will be better Leaders because of it.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made May 7 at 2014 2:25 PM

2014-05-07T14:25:58-04:00

Holy crap. I can't believe the amount of conversation here over two measley little buttons. If you have been in the Army less than 13 years, raise your hand. All y'all out there with your hands in the air are in for a shock when we go back to the peacetime Army! Those of you who remember the years between the Gulf War and 9/11 will probably agree with me. When we began fighting in two different countries, not to mention all of the smaller deployments in the last 13 years (Philippines, HOA, etc.) we saw standards slip quite a bit on everything from the wear and appearance of the Army uniform to NCOES requirements for promotion. Now that we are slowly moving into post-war years and nobody has deployments to worry about, guess what is going to become important again? That's right kiddies, STANDARDS! Back to monthly ASU inspections, weekly ACU inspections (right before you have to go crawl under a vehicle in the motor pool), and all of the other little joys that made garrison Army life so special. We don't need to kick people out of the Army to downsize. We just have to wait until we are back at pre-2001 standards and young Soldiers will leave the Army in droves! They are not used to it! They will hate it! LOL SMA has already started it with the new tattoo and hair regs. Just sayin'. Might as well get yourself ready.....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2014 8:27 PM

2014-05-07T20:27:10-04:00

I don't know why anyone puts stuff in back pocket lol, it's uncomfortable. But there's a lot of stuff I don't agree about the regulations, like not being able to have hands in pockets. But rules are rules.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 8 at 2014 2:33 AM

2014-05-08T02:33:23-04:00

I button mine, and I am actually OCD about it. I check my pockets every-now-then to make sure their buttoned.

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made May 28 at 2014 2:42 AM

2014-05-28T02:42:03-04:00

'For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost.' no matter how small the defect is. its a defect.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 7:39 PM

2014-07-21T19:39:03-04:00

It's not a huge infraction, but it warrants a friendly correction. If I were to receive such a correction, I would make it and thank the corrector.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 7:52 PM

2014-07-21T19:52:27-04:00

That is something that I will leave to NCOs. I do believe that attention to detail is crucial to the mission. If I were there I would have asked what were the five paragraphs of an OPODR or who knows the names of the spouses of your soldiers. Maybe the NCOs there are far beyond that and have tackled every major issue and the buttons of their ACUs is the most serious issue at hand for the NCOs in that unit.

Response by SSG Waldo Yamada made Jul 21 at 2014 9:23 PM

2014-07-21T21:23:37-04:00

When I was a Specialist I was always corrected by my squad leader in Garrison to button my back pocket because it can be seen and looked at as unprofessional. After sometime when I deployed there's a different outlook when doing things and that also comes into different levels of professionalism while deployed. I guess it is METT-TC on this one. When circumstances permits.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jul 21 at 2014 10:27 PM

2014-07-21T22:27:18-04:00

Ever since OSUT, I have always buttoned my uniform since it was drilled in my head back then. Occasionally I see unbuttoned back pockets where the wallet is stored by the soldier.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 11:27 PM

2014-07-21T23:27:03-04:00

My platoon sergeant once said, "You can't EXPECT what you don't INSPECT." When it comes to buttons, I keep mine fastened, and when i become an NCO will expect my soldiers to do the same. Attention to detail. :)

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 7:33 AM

2014-07-22T07:33:29-04:00

Having gone through BCT with a drill sergeant coming at me with a knife to my trouser pocket and asking "do you want to keep this pocket or not?" Because it was still open from removing my PC he taught me a valuable lesson about professionalism, not that his method is the best but to always be as though you're going for inspection and be square away.

I'm glad SSG Bryant stated it for us about integrity, to always do the right thing even when no one is looking. Some how soldiers seems to feel that because of a deployment here or there or being of a higher rank that rules don't apply to them and they are excluded because of rank or deployment. Not the button being fasten topic specifically but still try to correct a superior on a violation so simple and they may take a defiant stance. Noted through observation in my 9 years, not that every NCO or Officer has done this. Just a good portion.

Response by SGT Robert R. made Jul 22 at 2014 12:46 PM

2014-07-22T12:46:25-04:00

Regs are regs. Be the NCO and lead by example as you were entrusted to do.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 1:35 PM

2014-07-22T13:35:31-04:00

I would like to relate a little story regarding attention to detail. If you don't like story time move along.

In boot camp one of the first things emphasized by my DI's was left over right. Everything we did from day one was left over right. We had to put our left sock on before our right sock. We had to put our left leg in our pants before our right. We had to put our left arm in the shirt before the right. Left boots before right. Boot/shoe laces were left over right. You get the picture it was left over right from day one. And if we were observed not practicing left over right not only did we hit the pit/mini-grinder but my bunk-mate, my fire team, my squad, my platoon would hit the pit/min-grinder with me. There was a great emphasis on this, as well as many other little intangibles. To make this clear there was painful retribution exacted if there were offenses to the left over right rule.

This went on for weeks, with recruits not really understanding the significance to the requirement. Eventually it was just rote, we would do left over right as a habit and we no longer were punished.

Realization hit us during 2nd phase when on the rifle range the DI's instructed us that if in the sitting position you do not have your left foot over your right, you will fall over backwards when you shoot.

Left over right, I will never forget that lesson and continue to this day, not because I project that I will need to fire a rifle in the sitting position anytime soon, but because it became the norm/habit/rote.

We would like to think that regulations are made simply to annoy us. However, in most cases regulations are made for reasons which may be beyond our immediate comprehension and most likely have far reaching impact.

I took the advice of one of my first SSgt's who stated, "Hicks, take the time to know the SOP and all regulations you are privy to. You will gain insight and understanding as to how the organization is run and will save your ass in the long haul!"

Compliance to regulations is not a choice but a requirement. Those regulations no matter how trivial exist for a reason, which we may not see. If we disagree with a regulations and can provide supporting well thought out reasoning with impact results, then perhaps we can make a change through chain of command. But until that time, your troops deserve your adherence to regulations as you never know which little trivial thing will save their/your life.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 10:42 PM

2014-07-22T22:42:11-04:00

Since the regulation states they should be buttoned I inspect them and do my best to keep mine buttoned at all times. However, if I find them unbuttoned I do not rip the kid's head off over it as I do not necessarily see it as a lack of discipline so much as a memory problem. One that I happen to share from time to time.

Response by Cpl Westin Sandberg made Jul 23 at 2014 11:23 AM

2014-07-23T11:23:54-04:00

I don't know, if have to say that it depends on the time and place, my pockets were always buttoned, for fear of losing my wallet while playing in up they see me I'm down... but I think realistically, if you are in the rear, you ought to be squared away, however, if you're in the field or deployed however, tactical proficiency ranks higher than professional wearing of the uniform,
Example- if you are on a combat patrol, and you have more mags than pouches, I could give two shits whether or not your cargo pockets are velcroed or not, if you need to put extra ammo in your pockets, to hell with regs.

-guess that's just the opinion of a grunt tho.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 28 at 2014 12:12 AM

2014-07-28T00:12:40-04:00

I remember when I told not to put anything in the pockets in garrison unless it was the back pockets on the pants and the front pock on the pants. I also remember if you were caught with an unbuttoned pocket, you were placed on 1SG's list.

Response by MSgt Dennis Dudley made Sep 23 at 2014 4:41 PM

2014-09-23T16:41:11-04:00

I wouldn't go as far as ate up soup sandwich, but there are uniform requirements. They need to be followed, if not for regulation, there are some safety issues the can be involved.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 8:58 AM

2014-09-24T08:58:21-04:00

AR 670-1 clearly states that Soldiers will keep their uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped....so I don't see why people make the excuse on why their back pockets aren't buttoned. If you're putting your wallet back there, you need to button it up. If it don't fit either buy a smaller wallet or move you wallet to another pocket. And yes, I do make sure that all of my troops have their buttons buttoned, their snaps snapped, and their zippers zipped and mine stay that way as well. Contrary to popular belief the regulations aren't guides that we can manipulate for our own personal gain, the regs are the law.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 9:13 AM

2014-09-24T09:13:12-04:00

As I see how everyone has voted I can see why the Army has a discipline problem. Buttons unbuttoned are no big deal.....AR 670-1 says that they are a big deal. Last time I checked that was the law of the land. I guess those speed limit signs are just suggested speeds too, right? The Army, believe it or not, has standards. The problem is we are not enforcing the standards. However, we are quick to complain when we see a brand new PVT fresh out of Basic and AIT coming into their new unit overweight or not knowing why they are suppose to stand at attention for an Officer or parade rest for an NCO. I guess cuffed sleeves are ok too if it's hot? AR 670-1 says they aren't. It does say that you can open your sleeves if it's too hot, but no cuffing. It sucks when you see the people who are supposed to be enforcing the standard violating them. Do these rules seem stupid? Yeah, they kinda do...but rules are rules. If you don't like them, or you feel that they don't apply, then just get out the Army. You volunteered for this. It only makes sense that you abide by the rules.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2014 8:30 AM

2014-10-18T08:30:21-04:00

What next dog tags cant be looped on the belt loop and placed in the back pocket?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-02-02T13:02:56-05:00

I live with a similar standard...every zipper on the flight suit is supposed to be zipped. Which practically, would mean fishing out your cover, putting it on, then standing in the doorway while you zip the pocked the cover came out of. Then unzipping it again to fish out your car keys, followed by zipping it again.

It's a de facto standard among those wearing the flight suit to never zip the bottom leg pockets...reg or no reg.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 1:11 PM

2015-02-02T13:11:30-05:00

I've never used my back pocket. Not because my DS told me not to, but sitting on a wallet will make your spine contort to an odd angle that it is not supposed to. Sitting on an even surface is not good for the posture.

Discipline wise, yes, you will button those buttons.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Feb 20 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-02-20T10:56:13-05:00

Standards are just that. If you are not in compliance, then you're below standard. Not a good place for any SM. Very important that NCOs maintain or positively exceed standards because they are the people the junior enlisted members interact with every day.

BTW the button(s) on the back pocket keep us from losing things accidently. They also provide some theft prevention. A good pickpocket can get past the button, but might choose to skip you and move on to an easier mark--the person with their pocket unbuttoned.

Unbuttoned or unzipped pockets look unprofessional. Same for stuff hanging out of pockets like phones, pencils, notebooks, etc. Get squared away. Set the example!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 10:12 PM

2015-02-24T22:12:29-05:00

One man's indiscipline is another's flexibility. It just depends on the context.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 10:19 PM

2015-02-24T22:19:59-05:00

I can't tell if my pockets are buttoned. My hands are in my pockets.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 24 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-02-24T22:37:54-05:00

MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member, at OCS not only were all buttons buttoned, but all of our pockets were sewn shut as well. To this day, even after having been retired since MAY98, I still keep all buttons buttoned, zippers zipped and I don't like to carry things in my pockets.
So my personal preference that seems IAW with the AR, is to button the buttons!

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 9 at 2015 12:21 AM

2015-05-09T00:21:39-04:00

I think to me it's a lack of caring about rules that don't matter or apply to anything important.

In all seriousness though, it can be looked at as attention to detail. I wouldn't look at it that way as a leader, but some might. I wouldn't go as far as lack of discipline, as I'm against discipline to an extent. I prefer to be a freethinker in actual pressing matters.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jun 7 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-06-07T20:30:47-04:00

Those small things are called "Attention to Detail". Remember each and everything you do in the military (and civilian live) is full of small details and paying attention to them means you care. This forum is one. Do you bother to check your spelling, reread your post after posted? If you do, it makes the post easier to read, and shows you are smart enough to do it.

Response by Joey Damir made Jul 18 at 2017 11:00 PM

2017-07-18T23:00:35-04:00

I keep my wallet in my right rear pocket and I button it. I think leaving you back pockets unbuttoned is a lack of self discipline. and makes your but look like a slob. it also make you as a hole look less professional and put to gather. I ware cargo pants off duty and I always button the rear pockets. even the one that my wallet is in.

Response by Joey Damir made Jul 18 at 2017 11:23 PM

2017-07-18T23:23:40-04:00

I leave mine unbuttoned I keep my wallet in the right pocket and a hanky in my left back pockets.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jul 19 at 2017 1:23 AM

2017-07-19T01:23:52-04:00

i feel it is important to keep any buttons that can be seen buttoned. it drive Me nuts to see people with a service uniform jacket that isn't buttoned while its worn, that is being a slob ! The same goes for any uniform jacket. As to the rear pocket I keep Mine buttoned and found it a pain in the butt have a wallet there anyway and took to carrying it in a front pocket. To bad its not money that gives it bulk but then its also not as easy for a pickpocket either if its not in the back pocket.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 25 at 2017 10:52 AM

2017-07-25T10:52:48-04:00

A former CSM of mine who was a hypocrite of the hugest proportions seeing as he was forced to retire vice being Court Marshaled for an improper relationship with his female "assistant"
This CSM used to say "Selective enforcement is a lack of discipline and makes you a piece of shit NCO"
You would get told that if you had a Soldier that had his sleeves cuffed for ventilation in 120 deg heat in a MP with NO threat of insects, flash burn, ect...
He would say that if he felt the Sm of yours had a "Faddish" haircut, like a high and tight.
He would say that to any NCO he felt was not enforcing the letter of the regulation as he interpreted it.
He was also a lying, fat (way outside 600-9 standards) disrespectful, ignorant (could not write to save his life, it came out like a fifth grader in remedial English summer school class) And of course there was that whole improper relationship with his female "assistant" and cheating on his wife.

Now were was I going here....lol.. Oh ya.... I never lost my mind over a pocket unbuttoned. If I could see it when your standing upright, Id more likely remind you your uniform top was not sized correctly...or, don't forget to button that pocket after you put something in it so it don't get lost.

Response by SSgt Holden M. made Jul 25 at 2017 10:59 AM

2017-07-25T10:59:19-04:00

I'm a little bit stuck between it being no big deal and buttons must be buttoned. I never buttoned the pocket that I put my wallet in, and back when we would get our BDU's dry cleaned you would unbutton all pockets so you wouldn't get that little button ring on the outside flap of your pockets. But every single button would be buttoned except for your back pocket that you put your wallet in.

I do remember I had a supervisor that was a T.I. and we had a Captain that would have a bad habit of having his hands in his pockets or his cargo pants pockets unbuttoned or both, and my supervisor would continuously correct him every single time he saw it. It eventually turned into a joke between the two and my supervisor with the Captains permission called him Captain pockets when nobody else was around.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 25 at 2017 11:18 AM

2017-07-25T11:18:46-04:00

We were taught early on to button, zip, and snap everything. It has real-world safety implications in the flying business. An unzipped pocket in the cockpit can lead to stuff flying around the cockpit during acrobatic or combat maneuvers that induce zero or negative Gs. Loose stuff in the cockpit can lead to critical malfunctions of components including electrical circuits or ejection seats. We had a student pilot who put the landing gear pins in a pocket, but didn't zip it. During formation maneuvers the pins escaped the pocket and landed along the canopy rail behind his seat. After landing, he opened the cockpit (a standard procedure on hot days) and the pins fell into an engine intake. Destroyed the jet engine. Costly breach of "discipline."

Response by SGT Jim Arnold made Oct 7 at 2017 11:18 AM

2017-10-07T11:18:30-04:00

I always kept my buttons buttoned. You won't lose your wallet that way even if doesn't have any money in it.

Response by Joey Damir made Oct 28 at 2017 10:41 PM

2017-10-28T22:41:31-04:00

i keep my wallet in my right back pocket and a handkerchief i my back left sometimes a pair of wire strippers in one back pocket and a multi screw driver in the other. i never button them

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2017 12:18 PM

2017-12-13T12:18:18-05:00

First thing we have regulations for almost everything we do in the military.. So if it says button it, why do it differently.. In my opinion, it always matters to make a good impression, especially if you in higher ranks (lead by example). So I always try to keep my buttons buttoned, zippers zippered and tucked in, pants in my boots, colar fixed, no loose strings on uniform, don't wear dirty uniform. Of course if you in the field or on dirty duty is one thing, but in everyday life I think you should look professional.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 13 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-12-13T12:46:22-05:00

Things like this are great for BCT. Instills attention to detail and discipline than can have real world applications that are very helpful. One of our guys got called out by some MAJ though for his back buttons being unbuttoned while he was climbing into the gun to roll out, our 1sgt was passing by and heard the MAJ and walked over to the gunner like he was about to yell at him, but just said "I think that major is checking you out, stay frosty out there." Lesson learned... often times there are far more important things to worry about than the status of your buttons.

Response by SFC Dennis A. made Dec 13 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-12-13T15:17:27-05:00

I went with button those buttons because I always kept mine buttoned. It became a habit and didn't feel right any other way.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Dec 13 at 2017 5:29 PM

2017-12-13T17:29:06-05:00

Well, if push comes to shove, then yes, plain & simple it is a matter--however small--of ill-discipline. And one I practiced frequently.

Response by Joey Damir made Jan 7 at 2018 10:34 PM

2018-01-07T22:34:30-05:00

t's ok as long as there not ticklish. hate ticklish people and back pockets haft to be buttoned.

Response by Joey Damir made Feb 17 at 2018 10:52 PM

2018-02-17T22:52:07-05:00

i keep mine unbuttoned. i keep a hanky and a pair of wire strippers in my left back pockit and my wallet, multi screw driver and a phone in my right

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Aug 25 at 2018 7:21 AM

2018-08-25T07:21:48-04:00

I didn't answer the survey because I agree with none of those statements.
I did sew the corners down on the old BDUs because they never stayed down and looked flyaway, but that was my Garrison sets. My field sets (Read as older) had the full stuffed to the brim outdoorsy look.
.
A couple of days after the Panama Invasion by the 82nd Airborne a news photo showed a patrol moving down the sides of the street. The patrol were at high port and scanning the buildings across the streets, covering each others opposite sides. One of the soldier's protective mask was dangling by one strap. A couple of our Troop's LTs asked me (PSG) what I thought (specificly the soldier's failure to be STRAC and his leaders failure to correct) about it . I responded with something like, "I don't know what to think because the patrol is obviously at high alert (you can even get bored while getting shot at) so they might have greater concerns."
.
That's why my immediate reaction was that I needed to think about the self-described circumstances of the survey.
.
My personal and professional opinion is you give them a chance to button-up if its an unannounced inspection. Before I go out in public, I check myself and have habits which maintain my appearance. Or you see something wrong with a soldier then you do a spot correction.
.
As for being in a classroom at a Training Conference? YES. You were wrong since it was a previously notified activity. Also you were representing your unit and the military services - which is most like a part of what he was attempting to convey.
Crawling around in the weeds during training - Forgivable but only if we don't have to arm-and-arm search for your missing car keys.
.
Either way I wouldn't beat myself up about it.
Its like calling'em "LTs" instead of "Lieutenants" like I wrote above. The intent was not to offend.
Thanks for the post - Good way to share a teaching point.

Response by PO2 Herb Brill made Mar 16 at 2019 4:35 PM

2019-03-16T16:35:37-04:00

This is what I got out of boot camp, it is simply to develop a sense of detail, which keeps everyone sharp and in tune with what's happening around them. Don't take it personal, everybody learns from other's failures, can't improve without it...

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 16 at 2019 7:20 PM

2019-03-16T19:20:38-04:00

Army regulations and policies are there for a reason. You are wrong. Every time you walk past a mistake, failure, or allow an inappropriate act you have created a new standard for your organization. Buttons buttoned, headgear outdoors, wearing a belt etc, all the same. Thank you for your service.

Response by SSG Marshall Paul made Mar 16 at 2019 10:14 PM

2019-03-16T22:14:15-04:00

Too much time in garrison.

Response by SCPO William Akin made Mar 17 at 2019 7:19 AM

2019-03-17T07:19:10-04:00

1. What the hell is "ate up like a soup sandwich"
2. I don't recall buttons on the rear pockets of 'Seafarer Dungarees'
3. "Back in the Day" ABOARD SHIP buttoned pockets were not something that was at the top of things to worry about list.. Hells Bells with most shipboard landry's you were lucky to have all your buttons..

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2019 12:52 PM

2019-03-17T12:52:41-04:00

The correct answer is that you keep that pocket buttoned. I will admit that I frequently have to force myself to remember, so I will not adversely judge anyone else for forgetting. I realize that I have to do better remembering, and I will try to help others to remember as well, on the nicest way possible (because that is how I hope someone would treat me).

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Mar 17 at 2019 2:48 PM

2019-03-17T14:48:15-04:00

Everyone knows they get buttoned

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2019 8:41 PM

2019-03-17T20:41:32-04:00

Attention to detail may save your and your unit lives.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jul 28 at 2019 10:38 PM

2019-07-28T22:38:20-04:00

All fasteners should be fastened. I never had problems getting in and out of pockets to get things out. Most pockets were kept empty.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Jan 10 at 2020 11:22 AM

2020-01-10T11:22:43-05:00

I guess I’m SGT Old School...

I come from the generation of thinking NCOs should lead by example. Part of that is doing the right thing even if nobody is watching. Personal accountability should be first. I cannot expect my soldiers to pay attention to detail if I do not do so myself.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2020 11:53 AM

2020-01-10T11:53:30-05:00

The important thing is to remember the goal of the regulation. If your uniform looks unprofessional, then do what is expected to make it look correct. With that said, I wouldn't expend energy worrying about a pocket that is unbuttoned but not visible. If it's not affecting the appearance of the uniform, move on and deal with the other critical priorities.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2020 4:24 PM

2020-01-10T16:24:05-05:00

I need more choices

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Jan 11 at 2020 2:50 AM

2020-01-11T02:50:19-05:00

Why is the button even there? To hold stuff in. However this clearly falls under suggesting whomever is using this as an excuse to get their eye-candy on by staring at my ass....that surely they can find something better to do.