Uniform enforcement by neighbors off post?

MAJ Jim Steven — Wed, 12 Nov 2014 19:07:31 -0500

Had a run in with a neighbor today, and wanted to get some perspective....

I came home during lunch one day. I left my hat in the car, this is off post and a neighborhood (not in town amongst the public).
I walk my dog up the street and around the cul de sac. I consider this a private enough area.
That evening, I am walking the dog again, this time in PTs after working out.
This car stops, asks who I am (I say name and rank, since he said his), introduces himself as SGM such and such and proceeds to tell me that when I walk in HIS (emphasis that it was HIS, not our, not the) neighborhood, I need to be in the proper and complete uniform, pointing to his hat...
I get that, by regulation, he is correct. I know I was wrong. No argument there.

What is your take on this...? Do SGMs own neighborhoods off base??
What is any service member's jurisdiction and authority when off post and not performing a military duty??
When someone is out of uniform, does that change the dynamic between you two - are we neighbors, or do you still think you are large and in charge?
If you feel he was disrespectful (I said, if...), is Respect (or any Army value) optional while adhering to 670-1 mandatory (I guess it is, I mean...there is a regulation about my uniform, but someone being dishonest, selfish, disrespectful, etc...there is no regulation against it - aren't they just posters on the walls)?

Note: Example picture added by RP staff

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 3:01 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:01:03 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven, the SGM could have handled it with more tact, but I have never heard that it is okay to be out of uniform because you're at home or near home or in a neighborhood. As SSG James Palmer IV notes, there are bigger worries in this world, but you were outdoors without your headgear on, and that means you were technically out of uniform.

That's my take, sir, with all due respect. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong on this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 3:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:09:53 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven My take is that you are both right to a degree in your own unique ways.

The SGM is in the right for correcting and enforcing standards. Just because you're not on base doesn't mean that the rules that govern us magically disappear. It's one thing to not wear your PC or jacket when you're inside the confines of your own property, but by your own admission you were walking your dog outside your property on the public (yes, public) street. The SGM could have laid off with the whole "this is my neighborhood" bit, but he's in the right for otherwise saying what he did.

That said there should be some common sense thrown in these types of situations as well. If you were just taking your dog to relieve itself outside on your own property or just going to the end of your driveway to get your mail and left your PC somewhere else then IMO what happens on your property is your business within reason.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Jan 10 at 2015 3:11 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:11:29 -0500

This reminds me of this rather lengthy discussion on the appropriateness of wearing headgear between your car and your house...

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-you-wear-headgear-when-you-re-outside-at-your-house

The length of that discussion definitely shows that it not such a simple question for many.

Do you wear headgear when you're outside at your house? | RallyPoint

So, with the new and improved AR 670-1 on the verge of being released (not holding my breath), and after reading many of the discussions on uniform violations I got to thinking.  One of the things I always talk to my Soldiers about and gets on my nerves when I see it, is when Soldiers are at home, both on and off post, many of them do not wear their headgear when they get out of the vehicle and walk inside.  I have seen Officers,...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 3:25 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:25:21 -0500

Sir,

I don't recall 670-1 having a "neighborhood" clause in it anywhere? Uniform wear and appearance and the regulation that governs how we wear the uniform are not subject to individual discretion. The SGM may have delivered his point in a pompous manner but his message was none the less right on.
There are enough degradations of standards and traditions that soldiers and officers commit and make lite of when corrected. This is just another sad example of that, and a display of what some might perceive as a lack of integrity. I hope that's not the case.
The simple fix is to be all the way in uniform, or all the way out of uniform.
No disrespect intended.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 3:25 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:25:35 -0500

Respectfully, Sir, I have to agree with the uniform regulation as you were outdoors without headgear. There is a way to say things, seems SGM needs to be tactful, yet he was correct.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Jan 10 at 2015 3:42 PM

SFC Michael Jackson, MBA — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:42:31 -0500

I agree SMsgt Thomas that SGM shouldve been more tactful. That being said, You were out of uniform and he was within general miltary authority to make an on the spot correction. Being off post dont give us a pass on regulations

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jan 10 at 2015 3:44 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:44:41 -0500

First of all, in today's army if you see a uniform violation and it bothers you, YOU are part of the problem. Trying to fix it is like screaming into the wind in a hurricane.

Response by SPC David S. made Jan 10 at 2015 3:52 PM

SPC David S. — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:52:28 -0500

Sir while he was right with the uniform I think He could have had a little more tack in doing so. Just wear a speedo next time you walk the dog. Your cover will be the least of his worries.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Jan 10 at 2015 3:59 PM

MSG Scott McBride — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:59:20 -0500

The SGM certainly could've used a better means to deliver his point, but he is right. correct uniform standards apply at all times whether on/off post, neighborhood, or wherever. The implied task is EVERYTIME you are in uniform you must wear it appropriately.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Jan 10 at 2015 4:41 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 16:41:07 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven I know it sounds petty; however, I can't tell you how many times, even as a DAC, I have to make "on the spot" corrections on this... And in my neighborhood. Just this summer I had to trermind the CPT across the street that he needed to be out of uniform to be cutting his grass. I mean a "work detail" is one thing... Home lawn care is another... And walking your dog another.

AR 670-1 3-7 L. Soldiers will wear headgear with the Army uniform, except under the following circumstances:
(1) Headgear is not required if it would interfere with the safe operation of military vehicles. Wearing military headgear is not required while in or on a privately owned vehicle (to include a motorcycle, bicycle, or convertible automobile), a commercial vehicle, or on public conveyance (such as a subway, train, plane, or bus).
(2) Soldiers will not wear headgear indoors, unless under arms in an official capacity, or when directed by the commander, such as for indoor ceremonial activities.
(3) Male and female Soldiers are not required to wear headgear to evening social events (after retreat) when wearing the Army service and dress uniforms or the mess and evening mess uniforms.
(4) Soldiers will carry their headgear, when it is not worn, in their hands while wearing service, dress, and mess uniforms. Soldiers are authorized storage of the headgear, when it is not worn, in the Class C uniform cargo pockets, if applicable. Soldiers must fold the headgear neatly so as not to present a bulky appearance. They may also elect to store it at the small of the back, with the bill tucked in the belt, provided there is no bulky appearance and the headgear remains hidden from view. Soldiers will not attach headgear to the uniform or hang it from the belt.

With that said, I really feel that if you wear any part of the uniform... Wear it correctly. We demandsd soldiers do it on base around the barracks and housing... Or at least we use too... It has been 10 years and maybe barracks living has changed... However I don't see a person walking on Post in the housing area out of uniform here at Fortress Leavenworth... And I know we didn't at Fort Lewis or Campbell.

As for the SPEC9, I mean SGM, I would have thanked him for this attention to detail and for keeping me squared away... And then reminded him that it wasnt his neighborhood. I mean ownership is a well and good but really???

My 2 cents

Response by SFC Douglas Krause made Jan 10 at 2015 4:42 PM

SFC Douglas Krause — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 16:42:00 -0500

The SGM is right. When you're in uniform, it's a complete uniform. It doesn't matter where you are.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Jan 10 at 2015 5:29 PM

SPC Stewart Smith — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 17:29:42 -0500

Well , he was technically correct about you being incorrect in your wear of the uniform.

However, it is not his neighborhood. He should have talked to you, not down to you or at you. He is not in anyway shape or form better than you.

I wonder, did you return the favor and 'correct' the way he talked to an officer who more than outranks him or did you take the high road and not push the issue?

Seems to me that some people take things way too far like this SGM did.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 5:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 17:48:45 -0500

Always best to error on the side of caution and wear your hat whenever outdoors.

Response by CMSgt Marvin Neely made Jan 10 at 2015 5:59 PM

CMSgt Marvin Neely — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 17:59:25 -0500

Standards are meant to be upheld on or off post, when someone is looking or when they aren't. Standards are the foundation of all our military branches, it's an expectation that we all swore to uphold. Let's simplify it....did your parents expect you to only follow the rules when you were at home?

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 10 at 2015 7:44 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 19:44:14 -0500

Well, I for one am glad to learn that lieutenants aren't the only ones who have felt the wrath of a SGM.

That being said, sorry Major, he was correct, and those of greater rank should take greater responsibility in setting a proper example for civilians as well as brothers- and sisters-in-arms.

Response by SSG Stan Morrison Jr made Jan 10 at 2015 7:53 PM

SSG Stan Morrison Jr — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 19:53:34 -0500

Sir, back in the day, we were taught to be completely in uniform, or completely out of it. There weren't any gray areas. As a Reservist, this applied to coming and going, or if we stopped at the store. We were taught to present ourselves in a military manner. No disrespect sir.

Response by Sgt Sherry Taylor-Bruce made Jan 10 at 2015 8:06 PM

Sgt Sherry Taylor-Bruce — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 20:06:08 -0500

I have to tell you Major, the only valid portion to your post was the manner in which your neighbor spoke to you. When I was active duty in the eighties we aren't allowed to do anything in our uniforms off duty. The Air Force takes a lot of shots for being soft on regulations but proper wear of the uniform has never been one of them. It took me three years to stop reaching for a hat when leaving any building after I left the Air Force. Today I see store marquees reading shop in uniform and receive a discount. Going forward just remember to wear your hat while in uniform no matter where you are. You represent the USAF 24/7.

Response by SSG Roy Neve made Jan 10 at 2015 8:24 PM

SSG Roy Neve — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 20:24:44 -0500

You are a soldier 24/7 no matter if you are on post or not. I know I have been retired now for the past 26 months but I cannot imagine that the Army or the rest of the sister services has changed that much. Whenever I was off post and noticed a troop was out of uniform no matter who they were officer or enlisted I made sure I take them off to the side away from the civilians or other military personnel in the area and inform them Army Regulation 670–1, Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia. It used to get me so upset when military personnel think since they are off the installation that they could do whatever they want. If they are not proud to wear the uniform, why wear it in the first place and why are they serving in the military. Become a civilian again and they do not need to worry about rules and regulations with the uniform anymore.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Jan 10 at 2015 8:27 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 20:27:26 -0500

When I showed up on recruiting duty, everyone in my office had a habit of walking around, into stores, into schools, on duty, without their cover. I understand this is a bit apples & oranges, but although we may be off post, there are still many out there who recognize the uniform and know how we wear it. I don't get too picky about car to the house or playing with the kids in the yard, but if you're going to walk the dogs around the neighborhood in uniform, it would be appropriate to have the cover. It's good to remember that the opinion of veterans & retirees often hinges upon what they see us doing now. We should want them to have a warm fuzzy that we're taking good care of the shop after they leave.

Response by LCpl Brandon Barnes made Jan 10 at 2015 9:16 PM

LCpl Brandon Barnes — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:16:49 -0500

Sir, if we expect enlisted men to be in proper attire at the barracks, the same should be expected everywhere. As for wearing cammies and pt gear, in the Corps I know that's not authorized off base anyway. And the Sergeant Major can't tell your rank if you're in PT gear so he may have thought you were enlisted.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 9:21 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:21:48 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven, I concur with the sergeant major; uniform equals full uniform, regardless of location.
Looks like he took the first opportunity to make the on-the-spot-correction, so I'm fine with the way he corrected you. There are worse ways to make that kind of correction that are more inappropriate.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Jan 10 at 2015 9:26 PM

MAJ Jim Steven — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:26:42 -0500

Appreciate the responses...
Wasn't necessarily looking for anyone to agree with me, don't necessarily think I am special, don't necessarily think rules change when you get home.
I do consider myself an intelligent enough individual who can get stuff done.
I am not one of those 24/7 nuts. I don't shave on the weekends, I cut the grass in uniform on a Friday afternoon, I stop by an off post grocery store to get beer on the way home.
That's going to bother some people, such as SGT Butler. And I am ok with that.
I know what I did was not in line with a regulation, but I also don't see it as a significant problem.
As for the SGM's tact....I also don't care so much as how he talked to a Major, but how he talked to a person in General. I now have no respect for him, and he reinforces what I think of E-9s in General...
Some of you will not get what I am saying...I have always been curious about people whose sole purpose in life is on the spot corrections to 670-1...are they capable of anything else??

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Jan 10 at 2015 9:55 PM

MAJ Jim Steven — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:55:19 -0500

What if I had said...."Smaj, next time you got a problem, highspeed, dial 911 and state your emergency?"

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 10 at 2015 9:55 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:55:39 -0500

When you got the uniform on there are regs to comply with, especially when in public. The public are the people paying the tab, and we should be on our best at all times. With rank on uniforms in the Army today, good case the SGM didn't know the rank, especially when in PT uniform. It's not hard to see a soldier with no cover from a distance. I don't see where he was that far out of line, not know the rank. Maybe if you'd introduced yourself and thanked the SGM for the correction, he'd recognized the mistake and he'd have properly addressed you.

Response by MSgt Charles Drinkwater made Jan 10 at 2015 9:52 PM

MSgt Charles Drinkwater — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:52:14 -0500

Put your damn hat on!

Response by MSgt John Carter made Jan 10 at 2015 9:59 PM

MSgt John Carter — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 21:59:26 -0500

If you are wearing your uniform outside, then you must have your hat on. Period. I expect officers--especially majors--to be above reproach in the wear of their uniform.

As far as the way in which the SGM addressed the issue, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he didn't realize the individual out of uniform was a major. After all, that's the kind of silly mistake a first term airman makes. He probably couldn't see the rank tab on the front of the BDU blouse--perhaps he saw the hatless individual from behind--and it never occured to him that a major would do this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 10:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:04:02 -0500

I think that's doing a little too much. I for one think that once you're at home or even in your neighborhood, that is your time to relax from the stress of your day. The main thing is for you to remain professional at all times when dealing with the "courtesy patrol"...

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 10:01 PM

SN Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:01:29 -0500

I understand not wearing a cover in the car if not on duty, but not outside.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 10:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:12:56 -0500

I used to live in on base housing. Once you are in front of/near your house, uniform enforcement should be relaxed. Some would say that it is absolutely wrong to not wear your Patrol cap or beret when you're in uniform, but I disagree. Should you go walk your dogs w/o it? Absolutely NOT. But if you're getting out of your car, your kids come up to you, you play with them a little, your wife comes out of the house, well, all I can say is get real. It's not going to kill anyone to allow someone to get from their car to their door.

Off post, is the same thing: IF you are in front of your residence, then relax on the requirements. If you are at Food Lion though, you should wear the appropriate headgear if you are in uniform. You should avoid going shopping in your uniform as much as possible, but if you must stop, make it quick. Don't go buying out the store.

Additionally, beyond holding hands or a quick kiss, avoid overly passionate public displays of affection (exceptions for returning from or departing to combat).

I'm not saying you shouldn't respect the uniform, but there's no reason to get into someone's business either unless they are just absolutely out of line (such as ignoring the reveille or retreat or saluting the flag w/o your headgear on, running into Food Lion in a T-shirt or rag-bag uniform). Neighbors will not judge the military by how you look if you don't make it a habit to look bad - plus, you'll probably know most of them anyway, but if you're in public, your appearance does matter.

As for your particular situation, I might have asked why you didn't have your cover, and I would have reminded you that you should have it on, but I wouldn't have asked for your name or been a jerk about it either.

That being said, while I wouldn't be a jerk, the reg does state that cover should be worn outdoors, and removed indoors unless under arms.

Response by SGT David Cook made Jan 10 at 2015 10:19 PM

SGT David Cook — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 22:19:40 -0500

I have been out of uniform for a number of years, but as long as I was in, when I wore the uniform, I wore it with pride and correctly.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 11:48 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 23:48:19 -0500

Professionalism 24/7. I always say, "Thank you Sir or ma'am" and correct myself that way there's nothing to ponder after that.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 10 at 2015 11:59 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 23:59:33 -0500

My initial thought was, "drive on SGM, drive on" but whether an SM is on or post, being wrong is being wrong. The way the SGM conducted the on-the-spot correction potentially invited a confrontation. If I was on my private property I would tell the SGM "roger SGM" and charlie mike (continue mission).

Response by SSG Corry Struve made Jan 11 at 2015 1:20 AM

SSG Corry Struve — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 01:20:30 -0500

This is why I rarely wear any type of military clothing. Someone is always watching!

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 4:45 AM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 04:45:07 -0500

SGM should not have specified "his" neighborhood, but rather emphasized the need to be in proper and complete uniform at all times when in uniform. He also should have stopped you the first time he saw you rather than waiting to a later time to make the correction.

Thanks for sharing your story!

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Jan 11 at 2015 6:50 AM

SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 06:50:43 -0500

I believe our military leaders need to be looking at trying to get the, ever bleeding Military, back into shape though programs to retain the good soldiers and officers, to many disappear to the civilian world due to petty BS that arises becasue someone makes a matter a personal one or simply needs to flex the rank muscle. I personally believe that if you want to stick your chest out, make sure it is worth it and make sure that which you leave behind you is a positive learning experience, the days of seagull management are over...we certainly hope so or we are looking at another hollow Army very soon.

As soon as the SGM said "my neighborhood" he made it personal, so if he plans on another stop of a stranger on the street to correct them, make sure he keeps it professional.

Seems to me this is another example of an NCO with low self esteem trying to validate his self-importance, a simple wave and "I see you" gesture would have sufficed.

A SGM is outranked my a Major weather they like it, respect it or accept it. It puzzles me that people comment that bearing and respect is important and we are leaders always but then argue to say a Major is not "superior" when it was plainly obvious the superior was used in reference meaning "superior officer", another example of making it "personal".

Splitting hairs, getting in each others face, trying to prove one outranks the other, one is smarter, more experienced or that NCO's are better than officers or Vice Verse, is a waste of time and distracts from the mission at hand, dividing the Army even more than it is.

Such a a situation may seem small and petty but MAJ Jim Steven will probably remember this for the rest of his life one way or the other, but the SGM will probably forget it next week, begging the question; was it worth it? Is this how the SGM would like to be remembered? Would it not have been worth the extra effort to get out of the car, approach the Maj, ask about his Dog and find some common ground and THEN mention the perceived infringement? Remember; he is off post and addressing superior officer. What we leave behind is as important as where we are going.

THINK about the cause and effect of every interaction we have, it may just be the difference between a thriving life and career and a frustrating one.

Steady on!
Steven

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 7:37 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 07:37:33 -0500

Bottom line: some people's worldview has no room for grey. Those people are drawn to organizations with rigid rule structures, like the military. And of that subset of people, many of them enjoy wielding the power that they perceive the rules as giving them, even in situations where they have no reason to wield it other than for its own sake. When I was a cadet, we called these people "tools," and they were a constant nuisance.

Uniform standards are a codification of social norms within a set population, and they paint in very broad strokes. If the social norm in your neighborhood is "hats optional," that's fine. We have "no cover" outdoor areas all over Air Forces bases. Obviously no one from the post is coming out to put up those ridiculous signs on private property, but as a social norm, no hats outside is a regular occurrence, even on bases. If it were me, I'd be a smart-ass about it and start posting those signs on lamp posts throughout the neighborhood to show him how absurd he's being. Except he probably wouldn't get the joke.

If he confronts you about it again, maybe ask him how he thinks his actions are improving national security. When he doesn't have a good answer (because there isn't one, although I'll give you 10:1 odds that he tries to trot out that old "if we can't trust you to follow small rules, how will we trust you to follow big ones" toddler bullshit), maybe tell him to put on *his* critical thinking cap before he attempts to engage you about minutia again.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 8:08 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:08:25 -0500

From what I interpreted from this is the SGM is hard ass about appearances which is understandable. It sounds like to me he should have been more tactful in his delivery. I can see the SGMs point. The public already has mixed perceptions of the military as it is. Therefore I can see his point about a complete uniform. Again he maybe could have been tactful.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 8:27 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:27:06 -0500

I think people need to let people be when they are at their home. I frequently walk from my car to my house with no headgear since it is my home.

Response by SR Javier Betancourt made Jan 11 at 2015 8:26 AM

SR Javier Betancourt — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 08:26:27 -0500

I have to agree with sgm such and such. We set an example and are also looked up to by others than your subordinates, by the way you know you should always be squared away in uniform

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Jan 11 at 2015 9:49 AM

Cpl Peter Martuneac — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:49:34 -0500

If you're gonna be in uniform, you should always be in correct uniform no matter where you are. The SgtMaj could have shown more tact, especially considering he was dealing with an officer, but he was correct, in my lowly NCO opinion.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 10:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:33:20 -0500

I believe there may have been some Service discrimination going on. However all services have a stand for the wear and appearance of the uniform. That should be the over focus, not the manner in which one gets corrected. Not everyone has a good sense of tact, we just have to except that. Do what you know is right (DUTY) and topics or discussions like this become less and less.

Response by 1SG Pete Marcell made Jan 11 at 2015 10:42 AM

1SG Pete Marcell — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:42:12 -0500

Sounds to me like he is another "under-employed" SGM looks for purpose. HIS neighborhood? Off post he can pound sand. Now politely reminding someone of regs is fine being a jerk will get him nowhere.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 11 at 2015 11:22 AM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 11:22:20 -0500

Lol, and everyone thinks we Marines are strict. If we're walking between our house and the parked vehicle and leave our cover in the vehicle no big deal. If I go to walk my dog down the road it's as simple as taking my blouse off and going boots and utes, which is within regs if you're PT'ing on base (lived in base housing), which walking my dog would be PT. So, there ya go. Not sure what the Army's regs are on boots and utes, but check it out and that may be the most simple solution. However, that SMJ needs to learn some tact, as well as the fact that that is NOT his neighborhood. I hated it when SNCO's would refer to everything as theirs. Makes me think of my three year old and their mentality.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 11 at 2015 12:06 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:06:03 -0500

My take?, if in uniform wear your headgear as prescribed.

Professionalism is partially marked by doing what is right, even when no one is looking.
What that SGM said should not enter into the discussion as to if you should or should not wear your headgear when required to.

Response by Col Michael Lehnertz made Jan 11 at 2015 12:14 PM

Col Michael Lehnertz — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:14:02 -0500

If you're going to wear the uniform, you wear it IAW the regulation. Said differently, you don't leave your hat/cap off when walking the dog in your neighborhood. You are in the profession of arms and as such, you are to wear the uniform correctly and professionally. It's that simple.
If you don't want to wear the proper head cover while walking your dog in your neighborhood, then change into civilian attire first.
Either your a professional or your not. You tell me.

Response by MSG D Cebo made Jan 11 at 2015 12:21 PM

MSG D Cebo — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:21:32 -0500

SOLDIER 24/7/366/364 its your Duty to represent your Army off duty and on Duty , Its common courtesy, even my grand father used to take his Sombrero of before entering the house and put it on living the house, is your Uniform and the list will go on, on, so Stop the none sense questions. Really

Response by CW5 Ivan Murdock made Jan 11 at 2015 12:22 PM

CW5 Ivan Murdock — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:22:54 -0500

You should wear your hat or change out of uniform. I would struggle to stay calm but the rules have nothing to do with on or off post. It is so simple to change. It is your neighborhood too and I am sure he didn't intend to make it anything more than that. He would have been wrong to not stop and correct you. Anytime you allow it, you set the new standard.

Response by SSG Jeremy Siebenaller made Jan 11 at 2015 12:25 PM

SSG Jeremy Siebenaller — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:25:38 -0500

Major, No matter how much I agree with the SGM... and MOST of the guys/gals that commented..I was always taught and I too taught that you check down not up. SGM or CSM or Capt....If you felt like you were disrespected or you thought that maybe because you were home and in your "safe zone" you are a Major...Your ladder goes a little higher than SGM's Ladder. You should know better and teach better than to be in a half-ass uniform and SGM should (Even though I am a huge fan of on the spot corrections) Stay in his lane

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 12:29 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:29:23 -0500

Sounds like to me that a judi chop is in order...
But on a serious note all servicemembers know that if you walk around in ANY military uniform you need to be dressed accordingly. Yeah I get it "I am right in front of my house" and whatever other excuse we can come up with just know that if you slip up that someone who is really about that that military life will come see you. Sometimes you just need to say Roger and move out.

Response by SPC Joshua H. made Jan 11 at 2015 12:44 PM

SPC Joshua H. — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:44:16 -0500

Pretty simple, if you're in uniform, you're in PROPER uniform.

If he saw you at a distance he may not have been able to see your rank, then saw you later and let you know you were out of uniform. As an officer, you should take MUCH more pride and set a better example for your soldiers to follow.

I wasn't there, I don't know how tactful he was, but being a SGM I am sure he has been around the block a few times. You show proper respect for the uniform, you won't be asking questions like this on RP.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 12:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:47:51 -0500

Sir,
I completely agree with the others about being in complete uniform. However, I do not agree with him stopping and correcting you while you were in PTs. If you were in ACUs walking your dog with out your PC, then I believe he should have corrected you. But you weren't so there was honestly no need for it. However, if he pulled over and said "Sir, I have noticed that you walk your dog everyday, I understand that you are at home, but even here if you are in ACU's then the PC has to be worn even if you are side for a brief moment, " or something along that line. Then I can understand, because he is just reminding you of the standard.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 2:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 14:04:08 -0500

Uniform standards do not change by location. They are about how you wear your uniform, not how many people see you.

Regularly leaving your hat in the car is arrogant and a little silly. Wear the uniform properly from front door to front door, then take it off. It is what we expect from enlisted.

The off post issue? Seriously, does that mean that as long as I am not actually on a post I can wear the uniform however I want?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 3:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:10:50 -0500

This is an awesome example. I have had a run-in like such when I was just a buck sergeant back when I was at Fort Campbell. We all know how Fort Campbell is. Anyway, I was unloading my car in my neighborhood after returning from the field and commissary when a truck pulled up and the driver just began to chew me out for not having my cover on. I snapped to parade rest after noticing that he was a CSM and respectfully answered why I was not wearing my cover: simply because I was now on my property and I was out unloading my vehicle into my house. He then said in a much more calm tone that there was a LTC that lived in the neighborhood and liked to chew people out, so be on the lookout for him. There is no real reason to be a complete dickwad about someone not being in the proper uniform unless you've corrected them before or if they are completely out of regulation, such as pt shirt un-tucked with ACU bottoms on with bright orange Crocs or something like that.

Response by SPC Tom Maddox made Jan 11 at 2015 5:02 PM

SPC Tom Maddox — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 17:02:28 -0500

I am a veteran not current military tact or not on behalf of the Sgt. Maj. back in my day it was simple when in uniform we were to be in full uniform. Out of uniform was no military clothing at all.

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Jan 11 at 2015 5:10 PM

SGT Francis Wright — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 17:10:08 -0500

You know, I bet he says nothing when at the mall he sees soldiers behaving badly. Ok fine you did not ear your hat to walk your dog, but on the other hand there are young soldiers that act the fool. Take it with a grain of salt and drive on......

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 6:24 PM

2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:24:52 -0500

.. I would refer to your respective branch uniform regulations which govern the wear of uniform articles on or off post.

There are no shades of grey when it comes to this, but far more often than not, you have senior enlisted and/or officers that subjectively interpret uniform regulations which in turn creates confusion and distrust in the ranks.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 6:35 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:35:55 -0500

Nowhere in AR 670-1 (I train soldiers and airmen) does it state "This only applies on base" so the argument that leaving your hat in your car was somehow justified because you are off post and in a neighborhood during your lunch doesn't compute. With the number of retirees and even citizens that know what a military member should or should not be doing increasing every day, it is all about portraying a positive image....oh and there's that whole Integrity core value. Now should he have had a little better tact, absolutely! Was he right in saying HIS neighborhood? Nope. Are you authorized to wear PT gear while working out (which walking your dog is a reasonable activity for that)? Yes. Was he completely out of line for correcting you for a uniform violation? Absolutely not, he should have just been a little more diplomatic about it, but at the end of the day, if you are in the wrong you are in the wrong and it shouldn't matter if it's an E-3 or an O-6....the rules are the rules, 24 hrs a day, no matter where you are

Ask yourself, if it were an O-5 or O-6 would you have the same question? What if it was a junior NCO in your organization?

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 6:46 PM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 18:46:22 -0500

As I sit here and read the sny remarks such as "I do not recall a neighborhood clause, etc" followed by "I mean no disrespect," I can't help but notice that respect towards others (especially superiors) far outweighs the need to be in uniform. Granted, both issues are noted important.

Sir, I would have responded to that SGM as such, "thank you for the correction. I'll head back now. However, simply because I'm out of uniform, it does not give you a free pass to disrespect anyone. Fair enough?"

I recommend to all - to not belittling your on-the-spot correction with shear disrespect. You do not get to call it a lack of tact or attempt to preface disrespect with, "I mean no disrespect." Disrespect is disrespect. As a senior leader, there are no excuses for disrespect. Period.

Yes, always be in uniform and take pride in it. If you're corrected appropriately, accept it and move forward. If you make a correction, keep it simple, to the point, and more importantly...professional.

Response by MSgt Bobby Vardeman made Jan 11 at 2015 7:17 PM

MSgt Bobby Vardeman — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:17:23 -0500

If you're wearing the uniform, wear it properly.

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Jan 11 at 2015 7:17 PM

SFC Ricardo Ruiz — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:17:18 -0500

As the husband of an Attorney and former Judge i will say this.

1 No military jurisdiction
2 Please Wear the hat
3 Good exercised walking the dog

This is why we have so many great leaders getting so much heat and some getting the boot while trying to do the wrong thing. Look here once someone pull a cellphone on you and post that to youtube and Facebook and you are out looking like Bubba the fool then you will get the point.

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=49977
he got the boot great leader

Its sad but its true.
Sir please wear the hat.

Marine headbutts protester at PI

1AirCav69 sends us a link from WTOC in Savannah, Georgia that describes an incident outside the gate at the USMC base at Parris Island, SC when a drill serg

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 11 at 2015 7:23 PM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:23:01 -0500

As I read the posts on his thread, I can't help but thank God I retired 14 years ago with 20 years and 1 day of service. During those 20 years, I was a Drill Sergeant, Recruiter, and Chief Instructor of the metalworker school for the Army, USAF, and USMC welders and auto body repairers.

I said all that to say this, yes, we should be in complete uniform at all times. However, I can remember when arriving at home meant something whether living on post or off post. If a service member drives home and walks from their vehicle to their house without their headgear, is it really that big of a deal? Especially on today's military environment. Don't you have bigger and more critical things to stress over? The "headgear in the neighborhood" on the spot correction by a SGM in his POV seems so trivial on the SGM's part. But, maybe I'm just too old and set in my civilian ways.

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 11 at 2015 7:46 PM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 19:46:03 -0500

For all of you who argue you're a soldier 24/7/365, keep in mind you're generally sleeping on the job 6-8 hours a day.

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made Jan 11 at 2015 8:06 PM

SSG Nathan Bryant — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:06:50 -0500

MAJ Steven, I cannot say that I have "never" done much of the same when stepping out to start the car/truck on a cold day, taking out the trash, or maybe checking the mail. But, I have to be honest with you (and myself) - we are either in uniform . . . or not.

The SGM was justified in his actions to correct you.

AR 670-1 states WHO the regulation applies to, but it does not specify "only on post", in performance of duties, or otherwise. It's simply "Wear and Appearance of...."

AR 670-1 - Applicability. This regulation applies to t h e A c t i v e A r m y , t h e A r m y N a t i o n a l Guard/Army National Guard of the United States, and the U.S. Army Reserve, unless otherwise stated. In addition, it applies to the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps and the Corps of Cadets, United States Military Academy, only when their respective regulations......

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made Jan 11 at 2015 8:09 PM

SSG Nathan Bryant — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:09:59 -0500

I do agree with SMSgt Thom.... with regard for tact. Army Values (Respect) apply on and off-post, also!

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Jan 11 at 2015 8:59 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:59:44 -0500

This post has brought to mind a similar issue, which I never understood. Here on FLW, the CG has implemented a policy (which is perfectly valid) that while on post, even when on leave or off duty, you will be clean shaven. I'm cool with it. When I go on post, I shave.

That said, we have many 'Base Majors' (thank you Ranger Up) that like to tell Soldiers to shave at Wal-Mart.

Here's my conundrum. In all my years as a Soldier, there has never, ever, ever, ever been a regulation requiring me to shave off duty, otherwise, the FLW policy wouldn't be necessary. That said, if you have an imaginary requirement as a leader that irks you, but it isn't an actual requirement, how about you stop abusing your rank & let it go. I'm not going to shave, I will grow a beard on leave, and you can bite my bearded butt.

This is nearer and dearer to me than many others, because shaving has given me nothing but heartache, cysts & minor surgery over the years. I can't get a profile though, even after having 13 stitches put in my face because it could create a stigma.

Either way, I love being a Soldier, but I think shaving is the dumbest rule in the Army next to situps, and I applaud those of you who have read the entirety of my crybaby diatribe of whaaaaaa! Seriously, though, I'm not gonna shave, and you can't make me.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Jan 11 at 2015 9:12 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 21:12:04 -0500

I find it funny how many people think the SGM lacked tact. I personally think it's vital that all military personnel exercise tact at all times, because we live in a PC world of I have to waste 20 minutes out of my day explaining why I'm a jerk every time I don't use tact. Also, it works for me to be a fairly respectful & nice person because that's my personality and it works for me. I've had leaders that were able to get the job done being mean.

Simply put, I am a SFC, and I don't have a lot of time to stop & BS with people. I get a message across & move on. I'd love to get to know about your cat 'Mittens,' but I don't have time. I don't doubt that a SGM has more motivation and years of experience to figure out how to make a message short & to the point.

Tact is not stopping to discuss the weather or how grandma Penny is doing. Tact has to do with the tone of voice, demeanor, & context; none of which is conveyed in this forum.

Also, a SGM is in no way obligated to use tact. He/she has earned the right to get a message across as they deem fit. An officer can get upset, but realistically has no sway over the man who can't be promoted ever again. Also, even the meanest SGM will one day retire & again be Greg or Mary regardless of how important they feel.

Let it go & build a snowman, all will work itself out in the end.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2015 12:08 AM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 00:08:01 -0500

Seems obvious to me that he should be in a proper uniform; otherwise, shift colors and put on the civilian clothes. How would I have handled it? As a junior, politely & respectfully; as a senior, politely & respectfully.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Jan 12 at 2015 5:34 AM

1SG Eric Rice — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 05:34:38 -0500

I would have made the correction as well. Regardless of rank we are an organization that is suppose to be driven by standards and discipline. The way this scenario was presented was misleading as it was implied that the correction was made by a civilian. Anytime someone looks away a new standard has just been established.

Response by SFC Royce Williams made Jan 12 at 2015 7:45 AM

SFC Royce Williams — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 07:45:41 -0500

The SGM should never had to make that correction. You are a Soldier 24/7 no matter where you are and are expected to follow all policies and regulations. What if it was one of your brand new LTs that saw you not in uniform? Now he should have handled the matter with a little more respect and tact however, he also may not have known your rank since you wre in PTs at the time he confronted you.

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Jan 12 at 2015 8:06 AM

TSgt Kevin Buccola — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 08:06:35 -0500

Tact and diplomacy is needed in this situation – but you have to adhere to the standard of the proper wear of the uniform no matter what your rank.
I see this everyday – military members walking out of buildings without hats on etc. Has policy changed?

Response by MAJ Will Sullivan made Jan 12 at 2015 9:22 AM

MAJ Will Sullivan — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 09:22:22 -0500

Unless you are in your home or your car you know what the standards are. If you are outside either of those then you are considered "in public" and should be dressed appropriately.

Since you were in your PTs did you identify yourself since rank is not normally worn on PT uniforms? On the spot corrections.....you may not like it at the time but nothing wrong with them. It sounds like the SGM waited for the opportunity after the fact to say something instead of doing an "On the spot" correction.

In this case, acknowledgement of the correction and moving out to draw fire may be the one of the better COAs. No sense in letting egos control the situation although it kinda sounds like the SGM may have let his out a bit. My 2 cents.

Take it for what it is.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2015 9:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 09:50:54 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven , great question. I found it interesting to see the different points of view from everyone that posted.
I am a reservist and there are times that I do come home at lunch and let my dog out by taking him around the block. If I am in uniform, I wear the complete and proper uniform. I feel that it is a privilege for me to be a member of the military and I wear the uniform proudly. I do not agree with how you were approached in this situation. If it were me, I would of been the better person, thanked him and continued on with my day.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 12 at 2015 11:50 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 11:50:54 -0500

You should have asked him his RP Influence score.

Response by SFC Judy Forshee made Jan 12 at 2015 12:15 PM

SFC Judy Forshee — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 12:15:53 -0500

From a retired Soldier's perspective: uniform should be worn properly regardless of where you are or what you are doing. I have seen Soldiers downtown walking around without headgear and have told them to get in the proper uniform. It is a pride in service issue with me.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2015 2:02 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:02:55 -0500

It seriously pains me to read the plethora of responses from folks who seem to live in magical military fantasy land and think that the rules don't apply off base, or that they can "designate" their house or neighborhood as a "NO HAT, NO SALUTE" area. So, following that same logic, would you light up a joint as soon as you drive out the gate, because after all, you are off base, the rules don't apply? The rules, no matter what branch you are in or what rank you are, apply 24/7, no matter where in the world you are, and even if you ARE a Commander or in a position of power, you cn never make the regs less restrictive, only more.

Where did we get to the point that folks are truly convinced that being a part of the military isn't like going to your job at Walmart and you take off your blue apron and no longer represent the company? Especially since many of these responses are not necessarily from those more junior in rank or experience, but from NCOs, SNCOs, and Officers. You are the ones that should be setting the example, not furthering the problem. It makes me worried for what the last 5 years of my service before I retire will hold.

This isn't justa job folks, it's a lifestyle that you VOLUNTEERED for. If you aren't prepared to commit 100%, stop polluting the system and get out.

Response by CPL Michael Hostutler made Jan 12 at 2015 4:50 PM

CPL Michael Hostutler — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:50:34 -0500

Sounds like there are to many people on here worried about the sgm tact. Who cares if the sgm hurt his feelings it is about upholding standards and representing the United States military in a profressional manner at all times on post off post or on duty or off duty. We need leadership not likership.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jan 12 at 2015 5:41 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 17:41:25 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven All due respect sir, but I think in this case you have missed the mark on this one.

I have read through dozens of posts and see a common theme on both sides. Pretty simple, some are for the SGM being more respectful and not calling it his neighborhood; others are of the opinion that he was correct.

My read on this is simple, and taken entirely from your post.

The correct and complete wear of the uniform does not cease simply because you are at a $200K house. If the photo pictured is the depiction of what was going on, then, you made a conscious effort to travel away from the house, without the cover. (I have no issue with someone walking out of their residence without their cover and grabbing something from the car-not in staying out talking for half an hour though...)

The SGM stopped and corrected you, while you were in PTs. He did it in his car, so in fact, this was a supremely respectful way to do it, because nobody else would have seen, nor heard the discussion. The pointing at of the hat on his head/seat was to indicate the discrepancy. The mention of it being HIS neighborhood is technically correct, as he lives there also.

I think that this could have been simply solved with no hostility or bitterness, had the Major simply said "You know what Sergeant Major, you are right, thanks for pointing that out, I will take care of that" You may have even engaged in a bit of friendly conversation about the neighborhood, how many other military live there and how to look out for each other.

Just my .02 sir.

Response by CMSgt David Wedington made Jan 12 at 2015 6:21 PM

CMSgt David Wedington — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:21:44 -0500

When in uniform, you are either in compliance or not. If you are not, you should be corrected... no exceptions.

Response by MSG Marcel Guaring made Jan 12 at 2015 6:24 PM

MSG Marcel Guaring — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:24:05 -0500

On the spot correction is a must regardless of the location of the violation. You will always get a better response when the correction is made with TACT and respect. Be professional at all times and treat people the way you want to be treated. Not being a soft leader but avoiding power intoxication. Adjust a nd adjust your leadership style to the situation.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 12 at 2015 6:58 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:58:25 -0500

I wonder what situation would have occurred if MAJ Steven told the SGM "gotcha" and then ignored him. Would the SGM stop his car and get out of it to confront the MAJ? Just wondering.

Response by SGT Jonathan Williams made Jan 12 at 2015 9:43 PM

SGT Jonathan Williams — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:43:50 -0500

BLUF: Walking up the street (with or without dog), you would receive a correction from me.

Walking to your car, you would not hear from me.

I don't know. Common sense? I would see Soldiers in my housing area without the PC from house to car. If did not correct that. Some would say I was not doing my job.

Suffice it to say; I did not correct many Soldiers in housing for PC related issues.

Now... walking a dog, going to the mailbox at the end of the block, spending a protracted amount of time outside (aside from house to car) would motivate me to issue the correction. I did issue those.

The regulation is that... the regulation.

Now, apply it with common sense. (Recall the discussion regarding unshaven Soldiers off patrol with 10 minutes to get to the DFAC.)

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Jan 12 at 2015 9:58 PM

CSM Christopher St. Cyr — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:58:50 -0500

My take...the SGM was 100% right. As a field grade you shouldn't even be asking Sir. Like I tell my Soldiers, act like there is someone watching you all the time because there probably is. When you are out in the 'hood lots of people see you; Soldiers, veterans, citizens. The image they see of you, especially at your grade, says alot about the professionalism of ALL who serve in uniform whether true or not.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jan 12 at 2015 10:53 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 22:53:23 -0500

Thank the SGM for the correction and make sure you are in the proper uniform the next time you are outside in uniform.

Response by SPC Charles Griffith made Jan 12 at 2015 11:20 PM

SPC Charles Griffith — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 23:20:02 -0500

Gotta say if you know you are wrong FIX yourself. Now for the SGM he was wrong in that he was disrespectful of your Rank and needs to FIX himself.

Response by 1SG Rich Martinez made Jan 12 at 2015 11:26 PM

1SG Rich Martinez — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 23:26:56 -0500

If you are outside in uniform it does not matter if your on post or off post your are required to wear your head gear (PC or Beret).

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 4:37 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 04:37:55 -0500

who says, "ooh... that guy is not wearing a hat. that is just piss poor of the Army"? listen, i got it. standards are standards. discipline is discipline. courtesy is courtesy. sometimes, i think we put too much emphasis on little things. i was stationed at a small installation with USASOC. everywhere you walked, there was a sign that said, "no hat no salute area". one guy saluted a visiting three star and the general corrected him by pointing at the sign. im pretty sure we all knew the guy was just a little nervous that a 3 star was right in front of him and he rendered the salute anyway.

that being said. if you take away from the standards, you slowly start to take away from all standards. SGM/CSM are enforcers and standard bearers. his delivery may have been a little off, but not much. you were in violation and he just helped you realize that. im not for it, personally. again, i hate the "no hands in my pockets" thing. its cold outside sometimes and my thighs are nice and cozy@! but i get it. i am in. when i get out, i can put my hands in my pocket all i want. i can finally grow hair. i can finally go a day or two without scratching up my face with a dull razor. maybe even get a tattoo on my forehead (not really) but at least ill have the option. i agree with you somewhat, sir. but i also agree that the SGM/CSM should be feared. he should have a certain swagger to him. he should have an authority to make corrections to anyone he needs to. after all, he has made it to the top of his chain. he deserves that little bit.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 9:21 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 09:21:59 -0500

It happens more often than you realize. I have been on vaction visiting family and seen soldiers walking through town without head gear. Either way, in your neighborhood or in public someone will see you. The corrections need to be made or we (the entire military) are going to constantly be seen as unprofessional.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 9:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 09:34:23 -0500

The hat is part of the uniform and should be worn outside as required by regulation. Walking the dog in a neighborhood, in uniform, without a hat on sets a poor example and is not the standard we are all trained and required to uphold, and this soldier should have known that.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 10:15 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:15:58 -0500

That's really lame. I could understand if this was on post or a high crowd area but in your off post housing area is a bit nit picky.

Response by Cpl Jeff Buckman made Jan 13 at 2015 11:25 AM

Cpl Jeff Buckman — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:25:58 -0500

Being a Marine I'm probably a little brainwashed but we're taught from day one to police our own, and to always represent the Marine Corps in a good light. With all due respect sir that is what this is about every time you are in that uniform you are representing your branch, do you really want to give the impression that you don't care about your uniform? It should be worn with pride and care that man that stopped you was helping you not "bugging" you. That's how I see it anyway.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 11:40 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:40:54 -0500

So here's my thing you state 1. You walked the dog with out your head gear on. (Unless your doing combatives outside this is always required) 2. You were in PT's ok if I was on post walking around yes I would have on said or belt but if I'm off post in my own residence I have never seen anything that said I had to wear my PT belt at home. I guess that's why he said what he said.. Am I correct??

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 11:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 11:50:06 -0500

I agree with the SGM but what he said is what I dont agree with. He couldve simply said you must wear the uniform properly by regulation. When he said "in my neighborhood..." his trying to pull rank, be an ass or both because if he really thinks about it everyone pays to live there. Respect is both ways...

Response by LCDR Michael Hall made Jan 13 at 2015 12:25 PM

LCDR Michael Hall — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 12:25:42 -0500

First of all, wear the uniform properly. Everywhere but inside your private residence. You said you were not in public but you were, otherwise he wouldn't have seen you and called you out. Second, 24/7, everywhere. And finally, I hope you reminded the helpful SGM that it was your neighborhood, not his. ;)

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Jan 13 at 2015 2:48 PM

SFC Jeff L. — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 14:48:00 -0500

Concerning the follow-on question of jurisdiction and authority off-post for uniform violations/corrections: The simple answer is that AR670-1 does not have physical boundaries. It applies on and off post, on and off duty. MAJ Jim Steven You knew the answer before you posted your query as indicated by the statement that you knew the reg. If that's truly the case, then what's the big deal?

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 13 at 2015 3:05 PM

SFC(P) Tobias M. — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:05:48 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven With all due respect I would say you should have had your cover on. I have come across many SM's no mater the rank breaking this one rule. I was stopped by an officer in my neighborhood (that he did not live in) and had my A@@ handed to me for not rendering the proper salute. When I addressed that he was not in proper uniform (Due to no cover) and that is why I did not salute him he looked at me and said " I am sorry SFC you are 100% correct". After that he was always in proper uniform. Just some food for thought. Integrity is doing what is right when no one is watching.

Again Sir I mean no disrespect here. This is just my thoughts on this matter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 4:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:49:31 -0500

I would agree with many of my colleagues on this. One thing that you mentioned Sir that caught my attention is in reference to jurisdiction and being off duty. Respectfully Sir, I don't believe those can really be considered as factors. No matter what part of the day or location, we are required to be in the proper uniform regardless. I make this assessment especially for the simple reason of displaying the standard for all subordinates to follow. It makes it difficult to enforce what we preach if we are caught not following the same standard. We are all guilty of it at one time or the other, but we should always strive for improvement.

Response by CW5 James Thompson made Jan 13 at 2015 5:04 PM

CW5 James Thompson — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:04:33 -0500

I agree with COL Leary. There is one standard...the Army standard and in this case not wearing your cap with your uniform was a violation of the standard. It's especially critical that we appear and act like Soldiers when in the public eye whether walking the dogs or running into the store for a gallon of milk; the standard remains the same and we represent our branch of the military and as leaders it is incumbent upon us to set and enforce the standard.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 5:17 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:17:54 -0500

Maybe...but he's going a bit above and beyond.

Were I in your position, and I thought he was being disrespectful...I'd inform him that in MY neighborhood, NCOs stand at parade rest and address officers as "sir/ma'am".

I rarely put my hat on going from my own driveway to my house. We had this discussion elsewhere...perhaps you should make a "no hat/no salute" sign for your property.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Jan 13 at 2015 6:14 PM

SPC David Hannaman — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:14:59 -0500

The Sargent Major is right. Not very friendly or neighborly, but right.

You could watch him like a hawk, there's a ton of HOA (Home Owner's Association) rules, bylaws, and civilian laws, I'm sure he must be breaking one... when he does approach and say "With all due respect Sargent Major, you're breaking this law and it reflects poorly on the Army.", that will show him, I'm sure he will appreciate your candor.

OR

You could just let it go and wait for the Karma wheel to go 'round.

Response by SSgt Mark Barrett made Jan 13 at 2015 6:23 PM

SSgt Mark Barrett — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:23:07 -0500

I feel like if I need to go outside for something quick, or just getting out of the car to go inside, my hat (or blouse) are the least of my concerns. But for something like walking the dog, or anything that takes me outside of my driveway/yard, I'll either change clothes or just wear the thing.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 7:31 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 19:31:11 -0500

Uniform regulations are put in place for a reason. Agree or disagree we all must abide and uphold them. The problem most service members don't know them or think they're optional. Others are to afraid to correct others on the deficiencies for what ever reason.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 8:03 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 20:03:11 -0500

I say not that big a deal - of all the things to worry about this doesn't even make my list. The guy who corrected you is probably the same guy who does PT on the weekend in official PT gear.

Response by SGT Brian Bybee made Jan 13 at 2015 9:12 PM

SGT Brian Bybee — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 21:12:44 -0500

I believe that wherever you are you are still in uniform and should follow the regulations of that uniform and I respect that someone has the moral to say something

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 3:45 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:45:38 -0500

The SGM should have been more tactful in his approach to correct the situation even if you were in the wrong. This could've been a time for the SGM who is a Senior NCO to do a little mentorship to you and explain the 670-1 to you when it comes to the wear and appearance of the Army uniform both on and off duty. Not saying that you don't know it. The SGM probably felt the same way you would feel when someone walks right next to you and doesn't salute you. in that instance I'm pretty sure you will give him a stern look and a little talk about the hand salute.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jan 14 at 2015 9:01 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:01:15 -0500

I support the SGM's ability to make an on the spot correction. It might be different if it were on your personal property and the SGM trespassed to do so, breaking another rule/reg/law.
I also support your ability to correct the SGM on the professionalism of the approach and the safety situation of stopping a vehicle in traffic.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 9:13 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:13:38 -0500

I get by regulation he was correct but this some how gives me a flash back of 05 in Iraq coming off a 16 hour cordon and search mission and trying to get chow and being turned away for being uncleaned and not shaved... there is a time and place for everything....

great now I am going to be driving in the middle of the road on my way home (just kidding, I do that already...)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 9:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 09:26:20 -0500

Sir, as Senior leaders, it is important that we are the example of what right looks like while in uniform. But with that said, we need to treat others with respect and tact to show them what right looks like as well. There are ways to correct people without being "that guy!"

Response by SGT S.D. Setzer made Jan 14 at 2015 10:08 AM

SGT S.D. Setzer — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 10:08:12 -0500

This really cracks me up....... think it is a HUGE case of someone being "butt hurt". Respectfully sir, as stated previously..... A regulation is a regulation and is applicable regardless of the location unless specifically stated. You should have had your headgear on your head. In fact, I would question you walking your dog down the street in uniform off post.

The Sergeant Major in the story was handling business period. I can personally recall two similar stories in which I was personally involved.

As a Sp4 fresh from a combat arms unit I was assigned to USAMEDDAC at Ft. McClellan before in was closed. One day a month the unit there was required to report for duty in Class C uniforms. One of the nurses I worked with (oddly enough a Major) was in desperate need of guidance on her footgear and the definition of "blousing". When I suggested she might want to tuck away her boot laces and blouse her trouser legs she "went high and to the right" and began to levitate off the floor by shear force of vocal volume. The ward master (an E7) stepped in and assured the good major that I was correct and had not been disrespectful. Later that day the hospital commander (full bird colonel) summoned me to his office and expressed his appreciation for my assistance in reminding the staff that despite their current assignments they were still soldiers.

When travelling from Europe via MAC-Flight (by now I was an E5) I had a SGM, who was also in the waiting area, task me with making on the spot uniform corrections of the others in the waiting area. Easy stuff right? It was until a Captain came in needing help with his Class-A's. Again I approached the Captain and tactfully (so I thought) pointed out a few "missed" items. He blew up and as soon as he opened his mouth the SGM stepped in and reminded the Capt. that it is the NCO corps in the Army who is responsible for the proper execution of regulations and that the young sergeant was trying to help the Captain from appearing in public in anything less than a pristine officer of the United States Army.

Great fun!!!

The SGM major in this case could have very well been just a bit more tactful I am sure. But the Major should get used to the delineation between Officer Business and NCO Business.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 12:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:20:54 -0500

There are always discussions about respecting the uniform, and that is the long and short of it. If you respect the uniform then you adhere and honor the rules and regulations that is required to wear it. It is the same idea of putting together your Class A uniform and measuring each individual item. You do not do it simply to appease the 'uniform police', but because you have earned the right to wear every damned one of them. No matter if it is a Purple Heart, or a Marksmanship badge, they are all important.

And, if the uniform is as important to you, as it is to many of us, then wearing a cover is the least of the issues.

Also, we are lucky to be back in covers and away from berets too.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jan 14 at 2015 12:21 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 12:21:44 -0500

Guilty as charged, I have done it also, not to the cul-de-sac, but the front yard and around my vehicle in the driveway. I usually do not try to do it, but I have left my headgear in the OTHER vehicle time to time in a rush. Last month at brigade HQ I was called out by a CSM, "where's your headgear sir?" and my simple reply at the time was, "wondering the same thing Sergeant Major". Usually a beret is in the car to assist this dilemma, but not this time. While I take compassion for your situation, we are wrong regardless. 50 lashes now or later?

Response by Cpl Phil Hsueh made Jan 14 at 2015 5:38 PM

Cpl Phil Hsueh — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:38:41 -0500

That's the nice thing about Marine Corps regs, we're not supposed to wear cammies off base for the most part and definitely not when walking your dog. Having said that, I do agree with pretty much everyone that you really should have been wearing your cover when walking your dog, at the same time the SGM should really have been more tactful about it especially since you're a Major and not some boot 2nd Lt. and even then he should use more tact.

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made Jan 14 at 2015 5:40 PM

PV2 Abbott Shaull — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 17:40:13 -0500

You know what I have more trouble with is that you have so much trouble with way the SMG accosted you that led you to believe he was being disrespectful. Considering the issue he was addressing is a disregard of adhering to 670-1 which doesn't seem to much to ask for while in uniform! I would expect even the newest boot E-1 out of Basic, or O-1 out of West Point to remember to wear their cover while outside, in a uniforms where they are required to where. Yes, granted there are times, we all have times where we go brain dead. Stuff happens, but knowing you were walking your dogs, why couldn't you go get your cover?

As for the SGM being disrespectful, well not being tactful, what the hell kind of response reaction would one expect from E-9 who spent their career developing both Enlisted and young Officers to move up in their careers. One would think once an Officer got to O-4 they were capable enough where such foolishness and outright disregard for a very standard and basic regulation wouldn't be swept away. Regardless as if you claim it is one time thing.

As O-4 you should know better, and should be able to uphold these type of Standards at all times. Like I said, I could see leaving cover in the car, it happens, but to leave in the car to walk the dogs is no excuse, and like others have posted you never know who could be watching. As for taking ownership of the neighborhood, if that what got to you in the entire conversation, you really need to sort out your priorities. This wasn't about Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, and won't you be my Neighbor. This was Senior NCO, telling mid-level Officer they were caught screwing up, period. With extra unmentioned being heavily implied, "You never know who may be watching in this Neighborhood!....Sir!"

We all make mistakes, owe up to it, and leave it that. Just remember to keep your cover with you, or if you continue to leave it in the car at home at lunch. Get it before you walk the dogs around, and that way the SGM will have no reason to embarrass you in such a way again. I am going to guess that he didn't see you so much out of uniform, but it more like a dependent who question why someone was walking their dogs in uniform without cover. Who talked to someone, who talk to someone else, who just happened to talk to his wife. So by the time he heard about he had to say to something to you, and go back and either talk to three soldier personally, or put the word out to work on damage control. What people always forget is that it may roll down hill faster than rolls back up it, but when it does roll back up, it usually nevers goes through the official chain of command. So yeah I can see where he may be little bit snippy, if he thought he had to put out fires, he should of never had to put out in the first place. Probably caught him just as he was calming down, before he realize how he was going to justify getting out of the office to talk to the people he needed to in person, without sending up to many red flags. Making it more of big deal than it may already be.

Just some thoughts on it.

Response by MSgt Jesse L Pate Jr made Jan 14 at 2015 10:32 PM

MSgt Jesse L Pate Jr — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 22:32:20 -0500

Standard practice where? The regulation states you will wear your uniform in a prescribed manner, it does not say getting out of your car at your house (off post) is an authorized no hat location! Sorry if that seemed a little abrupt, but that is one thing that chaps my backside! Wear your uniform off-base as you would on-base! You are representing not only your service but your sister services as well, as most of you know civilians all think we are in the Army not matter the uniform we wear!

Response by MSG Robert Mills made Jan 15 at 2015 12:16 AM

MSG Robert Mills — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 00:16:11 -0500

Umm Sir Keep your self in uniform and then some NCO wont bust you out, remember that your a example for troops on and off duty, so when your a commander some day and some soldier is in front of you for some violation you can properly enforce and uphold a standard instead of busting poor private for the very same violations that you yourself have demonstrated to them. I dont blame the SGM he was correct in pointing out the uniform issue, with all the stupid people out there that dont wear the uniform correctly it should be a point of pride instead of a inconvienence. This reminds me of the call to retreat, I remember soldiers running for the door just to avoid it, this is also wrong, when on post if I was in my vehicle and heard retreat, Id stop in the middle of the road, put my car in park, step out of my car and salute the flag making everyone wait until it was over before moving out, did I anger people with this absouluty, but I did not care because it was the right thing to do.

Response by MSgt Kevin Willoughby made Jan 15 at 2015 2:35 AM

MSgt Kevin Willoughby — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 02:35:36 -0500

I have to agree with SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas. The SGM should have used some professional tact while addressing an officer, and given him the respect due. In the same right, an officer should know that the regulation does not state on duty, but while in uniform.

What kind of a message does an officer want to send to his troops? What kind of self discipline do you have that you do not care enough to wear the uniform properly and with pride whether on post or off post? How does this self discipline and self respect transfer to other aspects of your military or professional life? If you think that it is ok to not follow this regulatioin, how do you feel about following other regulations that are in place to protect you, others around you, or do your job properly? In the Air Force, we have core values-Integrity First, Service before self, Excellence in all we do. I am quite sure the Army has a similar high value statement to live up to and serve under as well.

Have a great Army day sir!

Response by PV2 David Minnicks made Jan 15 at 2015 12:08 PM

PV2 David Minnicks — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:08:59 -0500

Where I live you seldom see SM in uniform. When I have seen a SM and they are not in full uniform or their uniform is not up to standards whether it be dirty, wrinkled or torn I find this upsetting and a sign of disrespect. The uniform should be worn with pride and it like the US Flag should only be displayed correctly and if it cannot be then it needs to be replaced, retired and/or destroyed. This goes for all SM whether they are regular duty, reservist or guardsman. If you want to walk the dog, go to the mall or be in public please change into civilian attire if you are not comfortable wearing the full uniform or one that is not up to standards. Please present yourself, the uniform and your branch with respect so those that served before, with and after you are given the respect they are due. I reiterate when in uniform regardless if you are commissioned, non-commissioned, your rank, whether you are regular duty, reservist, guardsman or in the dress or combat uniform you are representing the USA and your entire Service Branch.

Response by MSgt Dave Hanson made Jan 15 at 2015 1:38 PM

MSgt Dave Hanson — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:38:19 -0500

When outdoors and in uniform, regulations are very specific that you must wear your cover. But I feel that the Air Force, Navy, and Army wear their "working uniforms" in a lot of places that they should not. When I served in the Marines, we WERE NOT permitted to wear our utilities off base. We were permitted to wear them from our place of residence to our duty station..... With no deviation in our drive. But I feel that the other branches of the Armed Forces are pretty slack as far as enforcing uniform regulations anyhow.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jan 15 at 2015 6:53 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 18:53:23 -0500

The more I consider the SGM's actions, if you would have been on your A game, you could have pointed out that since he is so aware of the regulations, why was he not at the position attention when addressing a commissioned officer now that he was aware of your rank?

Wrong is worng...but being the better man you handled it correctly.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2015 11:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 23:23:30 -0500

To echo what many have also stated, you can't defend wrong, but as for the Sergeant Major, sometimes it's all in the delivery. A simple, "Hey sir, could you ensure you either wear the uniform correctly or not wear it incorrectly outside, if only to set the right example for those junior to you?"

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 1:22 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:22:44 -0500

I've looked through AR 670-1 and can't find anything in it that allows for a block of where indiscipline is authorized.

If you don't want to adhere to an organization's standard, then why remain with the organization?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 1:34 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:34:12 -0500

Nobody is perfect and I respect anyone who tells me to fix myself professionaly. But more than often certain individuals take it to the next level and do it unprofessionaly. Personally I would respect you more when you fix me the right way.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 1:58 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:58:39 -0500

Your in uniform so it's simple wear it the way it is meant to be worn and not how you choose

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 6:30 AM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 06:30:24 -0500

Hello Sir,

My two-cents is yes, you should always be in full uniform regardless of where you are at; home, work, etc. This is important as, SMSgt Thomas, mentioned because we are the face of the armed forces for civilians who gauge us by each person and as a whole its incredibly important to always understand we are watched.

As for the interpretation of the SNCO who corrected/spoke to you about your lack of hat/cover (whether this was one incident or if he had noticed this on more then one occasion, we do not know), but by the tone of your email it is implied he was disrespectful to you. When correcting anyone regarding uniform policy it's important to be tactful, and especially so when communicating with someone who outranks you. If you believe he was disrespectful Sir, maybe mention a better way he could have approached you regarding the topic.

Thank you for the opportunity to offer my opinion on this matter and remember when in uniform and outside always wear your hat/cover please as it's regulation to do so.

VR
ENS Heidi Ann Hinrichs

Response by LCpl Cal Handley made Jan 16 at 2015 7:05 AM

LCpl Cal Handley — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 07:05:05 -0500

During my time in the Marine Corps, this was not only frowned upon, but could get you a write-up and even an Article 15 entry. in fact at that time Cammies were only to be worn on base, going to and from home to the base. Even stopping for gas could be worth a charge sheet entry. In my day the Army had different regs, and I know a lot of things have changed, but I'm sure that in today's world a Sgt./Maj is still a Sgt/Maj. If an E9 is forgiving enough about you incursion in HIS neighborhood, put the cover on.

Response by SMSgt Bob Swanson made Jan 16 at 2015 8:46 AM

SMSgt Bob Swanson — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:46:44 -0500

You are in the military 24/7 and should comply at all times. As we rise in rank, we have an ever increasing obligation to maintain standards and set the example.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Jan 16 at 2015 10:04 AM

SSgt Dan Montague — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:04:39 -0500

I'm am not sure about regulations for the AF. In the Marine Corps there was never an "off duty" status. We were not allowed to wear our cammies around town while off base. But if a Marine did or they were wearing another uniform improperly, they were corrected on the spot. Same goes for civilian attire and grooming. If you are on or off base the regulations are the same no matter what. I have kicked Marines out of stores and barber shops on and off base because of this.

Response by SSgt Jason Perkins made Jan 16 at 2015 10:44 AM

SSgt Jason Perkins — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 10:44:01 -0500

Sir, was the SGM also a Soldier? I will say that in the Marines, wearing Utilities outside of base in any public area is strictly forbidden, even when worn properly. We are not allowed to go in the gas station, in the grocery store or anything, much less walk around without our cover on while walking the dogs. No disrespect to you sir, but the respect the SGM was asking for was for the uniform and the organization that it represents. He himself knows better, but the neighbor that already has a bad taste regarding service members may see it differently and it would reflect poorly on your service as a whole. And correct me if I'm wrong Sir, but since when does a Service Member's jurisdiction end when you're off post? If you are off post, I feel you should be out of uniform so this situation would have never happened. Granted, I'm not about to drive up to a Major, such as yourself and reprimand at all, but I guess the SGM has a great pride for the uniform that he wanted to stand up for.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 11:30 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:30:18 -0500

Sir, regulations apply 24-7. In your shoes, I would knock on the SGM's door and invite him to have a conversation about tact and professionalism. His on the spot correction should have been worded something to the effect of "Sir, we are Soldiers 24-7. We must uphold the standards at all times, and as leaders be situationally aware of the influence we have through our actions, including our everyday routines at home."
Respect, military bearing, tact, are all required of Soldiers 24-7. Anything less and you are just providing mitigating/extenuating circumstances for your infraction (lack of respect, tact, military bearing).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 11:51 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:51:35 -0500

Great choice for an example photo, RP staff! A picture really is worth a thousand words.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Jan 16 at 2015 3:41 PM

TSgt Scott Hurley — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:41:13 -0500

I know some probably have answered here that will say you were wrong or he was wrong. But I will throw my two cents in since this is a sore subject for me when I was active.

I have seen Airmen and NCO's not wear their hats, or shirts for that matter to and from cars to where they live. They think that it is alright to do so. I have seen airman and NCO's get out of cars at work not wearing their hats and shirts then they put them on. In my honest Opinion, That is WRONG on both counts. If you are in uniform going to and from work, you are in full uniform. You can have your hat off while in the car, but put it on before you get out of it. The shirt/blouse needs to be on at all times. I know some will try to defend the practice, but in doing so you create an image of, I do not care about how I look. When civilians in your neighborhood see you out of uniform going to and from your car without your shirt or hat, they think you might be unprofessional.

On or off duty, on base or off. You should still wear your full uniform until you are inside your home or going to work. PT gear is a little different but the same principle.

Response by MSG Christopher Wielgoszinski made Jan 16 at 2015 6:17 PM

MSG Christopher Wielgoszinski — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:17:17 -0500

I would say he was absoluty correct in making that on the spot correction. That is a responsibility of every Soldier regardless of rank. If you can be out of uniform when you're home and in your neighborhood then where do the standards start and stop? You should not be able to pick and choose which standards you you adhere as it fits the situation. Discipline Means doing the right thing even when it is not necessarily be easy thing.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 8:01 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:01:15 -0500

Sir,
He could have been more tactful in his aporoach, mainly the emphasis you state he made of HIS neighborhood. It should be any neighborhood, any area, any time. Sure I don't always wear my hat after my BA is over and I'm walking to my house from the car...probably should. But if in uniform it ought to be complete. If someone is to make a correction it could also depend on who it's to. A first year lower enlisted or a seasoned officer, one should know better than the other.

Response by SFC James Carpenter made Jan 16 at 2015 8:54 PM

SFC James Carpenter — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 20:54:55 -0500

Have to say i agree with the SGM. As a Major, you are a leader and you are looked up to as such. What if it had been a lower enlisted soldier or a junior officer that saw you without your headgear. Its doubtful they would have said anything, but your actions (not wearing your proper headgear) spoke loud and clear. Rules and regulations are 24/7, not part time and as a leader it is your job to know them and enforce them, not break them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 12:11 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 00:11:49 -0500

OK, the SGM could have handled the suitation better. That being said you were wrong, sir. It is spelled out in the AR, the only time that headgear is allowed to be left behind is in a dress uniform after retreat has been sounded. Otherwise headgear must be worn while in any uniform of which the headgear is a part.

Response by SGT Monique Stamper made Jan 17 at 2015 12:19 AM

SGT Monique Stamper — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 00:19:37 -0500

according to reg if in uniform you wear the whole uniform doent matter where you are at... if you dont want to wear the uniform then get into civilian clothes

Response by SSG Robert Poorman made Jan 17 at 2015 4:05 AM

SSG Robert Poorman — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 04:05:20 -0500

On post or off, preforming a military duty or walking your dog, you represent the your service, the military. Wear your uniform with pride. The Regulations are the Regulations and this one isn't about or for what other military people see but what civilians see.

I lived a mile away from the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines Reserves Unit in Chicago. I would see occasionally see Marines during drill in uniform shopping at the local supermarket and have on a couple occasions corrected a Marine for wearing their cover or for their blouse being undone, as a civilian.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Jan 17 at 2015 12:56 PM

SPC Christopher Morehouse — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:56:05 -0500

The correction was justified, tone (as I read it) was not.

Every soldier should feel able to give on the spot corrections to every other soldier, be it Pvt to the Sgm of the Army or what (Maybe not the brightest idea but still). But respect is no more optional than Honor or Integrity or any other of the Army Values. Those values go with you, on or off post, uniform or buck ass naked.

If you EVER put down those values you are wrong. Period. And hopefully some one is near by to correct you.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 21 at 2015 10:04 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 22:04:56 -0500

Never encountered that problem as Marines do not wear ours off base. When in Deltas or the like, I've never seen a Marine uncovered.

Response by Sgt Matthew Goebel made Jan 25 at 2015 11:19 AM

Sgt Matthew Goebel — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:19:20 -0500

WEAR your uniform inspection ready and according to regs. It's a matter of pride and respect for it and what it represents.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2015 10:58 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 22:58:44 -0500

MAJ,
As you can tell form my photo I am in the Navy and not the Army, I have as much respect for any service as I do my own. With that being said, I am also a 20 year Chief Petty Officer and I have had a few run ins with people our of the proper uniform. If it is not that big of a deal then why have the regulation. If you are going to be in uniform the be in uniform. If you are not in uniform then nothing to worry about. I try to impress upon my junior sailors that military bearing does not stop when it is time to go home. We are in the military 24/7 and we represent it no matter where we are or what we do. If you don't want to have someone tell you to be in uniform then do the right thing. You fight for the right for people to have the freedom to chose what they want to wear you do not always get that right. Hope this help from another service member.
EOC Patton

Response by GySgt James Anderson made Feb 20 at 2015 6:38 PM

GySgt James Anderson — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:38:40 -0500

You know the regulations, you chose to break them. The authority of a military member is wherever there are other military members. The regulations state you will be covered in uniform, doesn't matter if your home, in your best buddies driveway, at church, at a school, your in uniform you be in the full proper uniform. Maybe you didn't like his bedside manner, tough cookies. Follow the regulations. The military is not a part time job, if your an NCO, Officer, in civilian dress, at a restaurant and you see military personnel not following regulations you are bound to address that. As a military professional your authority and conduct is 24/7 365 wherever you are. If you want to be part time be a reserve.....
GYSGT J. R. ANDERSON
USMC (RET)

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 20 at 2015 7:25 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 19:25:20 -0500

Well it like this brotha, He had every right to make the correction. However, with that said....the CSM need to be careful to. I know in my neighborhood he would not have been able to do that. I like in CO Springs co....He would have been informed by everyone in the neighborhood he need to leave now. Giggles....these guys don't play. With the deployments, anxiety and all that stuff, he might have got embarrassed.
Not saying this to sound tough or anything like that, I'd just be careful. what would have happened if Joe challenged the CSM? would he have gotten out of vic and confronted him?
Don't get me wrong, if I saw Joe in café or something like that, then yea....fair game.
Just saying be careful, different states with different escalation of force rules

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 8:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:15:25 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven Please tell us how you were out of uniform while wearing PT and walking your dog that evening? Did you have your PT shirt un-tugged or something?

Here is the AR 670-1, published 20140915, 12-3:

12–3. Occasions for wear
a. All-purpose wear. The physical fitness uniform is authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, unless restricted by the commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the physical fitness uniform with civilian attire off the installation, unless restricted by the commander. The physical fitness uniform is not intended for wear as an all-purpose uniform when other uniforms are more appropriate.
b. Approved wear. The physical fitness uniform is prescribed for year-round wear for all Soldiers, unless otherwise directed by the commander. Soldiers may wear the physical fitness uniform off-post unless prohibited by the commander.
c. Restrictions on wear.
(1) Soldiers may not wear the physical fitness uniform for commercial travel.
(2) Personnel may not wear a physical fitness uniform in off-post establishments that primarily sell alcohol. If the off-post establishment sells alcohol and food, Soldiers may not wear a physical fitness uniform if their activities in the establishment center on the drinking of alcohol.
(3) Physical fitness uniform are not considered appropriate for social or official functions off the installation, such as memorial services, funerals, weddings, inaugurals, patriotic ceremonies, and similar functions.
(4) Commanders may further restrict wear of the physical fitness uniform IAW paragraph 2–6c.
(5) The physical fitness uniform is not appropriate for parades, reviews, and ceremonies.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 8:46 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:46:32 -0500

Frankly, I would not so politely tell the SGM which part of my anatomy he could get intimately familiar.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2015 8:58 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:58:52 -0500

If I am at my home, and you have the audacity to correct me on a HAT, you are wrong. Rest assured if I came to anyone to pull 670-1 police duty on you, you would be justifiably upset. The policy doesn't apply at my home. Who decides uniform modifications? The commander does. I command my home.

Now if you want to bust my chops at the convenience store, have at it. But be damned certain you are wearing your uniform PERFECT.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 20 at 2015 9:24 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 21:24:19 -0500

Haven't we beat this horse enough

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 20 at 2015 9:27 PM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 21:27:52 -0500

So he didn't like that you were in PT gear? What if you were ligit working out, like jogging or walking your dog with a Fitbit? Some people want a fight...they have to bring someone low to better their day. I'm not understanding how PT clothes are out of uniform though...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2015 11:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 23:34:37 -0500

Regardless of the actions, wrong is wrong. If you are wearing the uniform as a member of the United States military, and you are doing so in violation of AR 670-1, then you are wrong. Off duty wear, mixture of military and civilian clothes, all of these things are discussed.

There is one standard: the Army standard. You can meet it or exceed it, but if you fall short, then you are wrong and anyone from an E-1 to any GO has the right to correct you. They may not be able to enforce UCMJ or other parts, but it does not make it right to break regulations.

As for Soldiers outside of uniform, it depends on whether they fall under the direct chain of command and also what the settings are regarding how we are treated. Generally, I expect common decorum be maintained (of all people). As such, the dynamics and decorum doesn't generally change much whether out of uniform. I know with my superiors throughout my career, if I can't say "MAJ/COL/Whatever" or "Sir/Ma'am", I'll just try to avoid calling them anything...because I have never really been one that can address a higher ranking officer by first name, even after they retired.

Regarding respectfulness, it is generally expected. There are some CSMs/SGMs and other senior enlisted that forget that their association with rank and the degree of respect owed to the rank does not equate to the ability to lose their military bearing when addressing higher ranking officers. The wording may not have been the most correct, but I think the message was for the right reasons.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Feb 21 at 2015 11:54 PM

Sgt Jay Jones — Sat, 21 Feb 2015 23:54:14 -0500

MAJ Jim Stevens. How would you have felt if the a Colnel would have locked your heels up instead of a SGM? Is this an issue of being out of uniform, or being put in check by a subordinate? Rank does not equal being right. As an officer you have a higher obligation not to put yourself in a position to be corrected by a subordinate.

Response by SFC Scott Fifield made Feb 25 at 2015 12:42 PM

SFC Scott Fifield — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 12:42:01 -0500

Army or any other branch regulations do not end at the edge of the base. they are not for training or combat. They are for proper order and conduct of the military. So yes when you raise your hand and swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic you also take on the duties and responsibilities of following rules and regulations that most of the general public don't have to. But we who stand up in the defense of this country must always look sharp and set the standard for the general public To be proud of. We are what the public sees as their warriors their defenders of freedom and when we look sloppy that image tarnish of the American fighting person. So that is why we set the example 24/7 on and off the post. Value who you are and be proud of what you do.

Response by CPL Modesto Macia-Perez made Feb 26 at 2015 10:12 AM

CPL Modesto Macia-Perez — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:12:59 -0500

My opinion, you should be in full regulation uniform.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Feb 26 at 2015 10:27 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:27:54 -0500

You should have worn you hat (cover for the Marines). There was no good reason I can see to not wear it in the situation you described.

The SGM was right in talking with your about the uniform infraction. (Techniques for doing this are another discussion.) Being outside of a military installation does not negate the rules and regulations you agreed to follow. I believe the oath still contains the words similar to "obey the orders of officers appointed over me".

Take some pride in your appearance even when walking the dog.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Mar 4 at 2015 11:23 AM

SSG Brian MacBain — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:23:28 -0500

My take is that if you are wearing the uniform, wear it in accordance to 670-1 on or off post no matter where you are. You are setting the example to others (that are not in the service). For the SGM saying his neighborhood, I would have corrected him saying our neighborhood.

For your question "What is any service member's jurisdiction and authority when off post and not performing a military duty??" The jurisdiction does not stop at the gate of the military post-base. When a military service member is not wearing his-her uniform correctly, that is setting a bad example and people will think that the military (at least at that base) has no discipline and not proud to show off. I have corrected many of soldiers that just because they were off post that the Army reg 670-1 did not apply to them. Yes, times I was in civilian clothes and others when I was in uniform.

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Mar 4 at 2015 11:34 AM

CW2 Eric Scott — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:34:13 -0500

Depends what you're doing. If you're walking to your house. Who gives a shit. If you're walking 6 miles to the store looking like an ass bag, well you're asking for it.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Mar 4 at 2015 11:43 AM

SFC Christopher Perry — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:43:01 -0500

MAJ Jim Steven I too have gotten in the habit of leaving my cover in the Jeep when I come home. However, it is purely to walk into the house. I will not say I've never walked to the curb to grab the trash can, that would be untrue. That is as far as I would take this one. I would not walk the dog around the block or anything beyond my own property line. I am the person who will remind you to put on your cover to put gas in the car (off post or on). I have walked the dog in uniform when it was a rush situation, but I was in the proper uniform.

Now that being said, the whole "my neighborhood" thing would bother me. You see, I bought my house, it is easily as much my neighborhood as it is yours.

Response by SSgt Tim Ricci made Mar 4 at 2015 12:09 PM

SSgt Tim Ricci — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:09:49 -0500

Just a small note from me! I am a Retired SSgt E-6, and I work on a Military base and live in the Vil among Military personell, and I have confronted Col, LTC and and others on proper uniform in public! although I am retired and only do so when it is extreme I still use Tact and respect. 99.9% of the time i am afforded a hand shake and a thank you from Senior Enlisted and Officers, normally Junor Enlisted seem to have a problem but I also do not push the issue as not to cause a scene. I am not a Uniform NAZI my no means, and have only done so maybe a dozen times in the last 15 years!

Response by SGT Daniel Odom made Mar 4 at 2015 12:16 PM

SGT Daniel Odom — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:16:57 -0500

You're on duty 24/7. That is what the Army is trying to fix, service members blowing off the regs "because they are off post."

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Mar 4 at 2015 12:19 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:19:58 -0500

On the spot correction of a service member by a senior NCO is expected, even while "on the block." Respectful advisement of a field-grade officer by an E-9 is also to be expected.

Claiming the neighborhood as his own private domain as though it was his BN AO? That's too much, especially over a relatively small violation of AR 670-1.

Just avoid uniform violations in public and random senior NCOs won't have any reason to hassle you. It will also project the proper image to the other service members and veterans in your neighborhood.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:51 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:51:04 -0400

I've known a few Soldiers Officers, and Enlisted who leave their headgear in their car when they get home. But they only walk from their car to the house and then change. Still technically wrong, but in the end not that big of a deal.

I take a two hour train trip to my unit. I do it out of uniform whenever possible. But when I am, I make sure I'm in full uniform, no headphones, no walking and talking on my phone, etc.

The SGM needed tact, and if it was in front of your home I probably wouldn't have said anything. But we never know who is watching and should always set the example.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 3:05 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:05:02 -0400

With all due respect, Major, you should ALWAYS wear your uniform right. Personally, I think the SGM handled it badly both in his reported tone towards you and his emphasis on it being "his" neighborhood. But he was factually accurate.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Apr 8 at 2015 3:10 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:10:32 -0400

Being off post and in a private neighborhood, I would not have answered the questions of the SGM. Just because he is in uniform - may not necessarily mean he is really in the military. Also, with the recent threat of ISIS wanting to target military personnel (not meaning that foreign fighters are actually here, since they are recruiting and enticing young Americans online to do their bidding for them), then it might be a safe idea not to get into the habit of wearing the uniform off post / base, to include PT gear.

The SGM on the other hand, if he really is a SGM should find a hobby or worry more about taking care of troops. If he is policing "His" neighborhood looking for uniform violations, then he would likely be best served being a Tac Officer at a military school for Cadets where he could spend an entire day issuing out demerits. I have to wonder if the SGM has too much time on his hands, and if is policing his neighborhood - then how much time does he spend trooping the line?

Ultimately, it would have been better if the SGM had acknowledged your rank, introduced himself as being your neighbor, and respectfully asked you to help him maintain uniform standards when "off-duty / off post" in an effort to set a good example for younger Soldiers and young NCO's / young Lieutenants to follow. That approach is the way professional Soldiers who have been in longer than 10 years treat one another and especially at the SGM to Major level.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:38 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:38:39 -0400

An easy thing to fix. I say by in standards as much as possible

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:43 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:43:40 -0400

You should have told him that you could not hear him while he was sitting in the car and that the position of attention might help your hearing deficit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:58 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:58:34 -0400

Sir,
You were in violation as you noted yourself. i completely understand that you were at home and quickly walking your dog so I wouldn't have heartburn over this minor issue.
What is most troubling to me is the behavior of the SGM. I'm pretty tired of this pompous, arrogant attitude you described. I have had to remind SGM's and CSM's to mind their military bearing on more than one occasion. Had I been in your spot I would have had that SGM out of his car at attention while we had a kind and professional conversation.
As many have said, we have much more to worry about than whether you had on a cover in your yard.

CPT M

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:00 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:00:34 -0400

I would of got his information, done a little research to find out if hes all jacked up .If so have a word with his commanding officer to help this double standard service member get back on track in a creative way. Also im old fashion i would of taught him a little manners.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 6:09 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:09:08 -0400

Sir, you were wrong and the SGM was proper to correct you. You were wrong to be out of uniform. You were providing a poor example for other Soldiers to follow. You improper wear of the uniform creates more problems for the SGM since he has to deal with all the junior Soldiers following your lead and then using your behavior as justification/excuse to be out of uniform too.

You were wrong and the SGM was proper to correct you. The only debate is about the professionalism and tact used to correct your deficiency. He may have been dominating or even disrespectful but he might also have be informing you of his boundary for enforcing uniform standards (e.g. wear your uniform properly around me in my neighborhood, but I'm not going to police your actions in some other part of town)

Personally I will pretty much correct anyone anywhere for any variety of reasons. But it should still be done tactfully and professionally based on the circumstances, violation, and rank. For example, two E3 with screwed up uniforms acting like idiots making a public spectacle and drawing negative public attention -- my corrective approach might be a little more public and harsher. A E6 recruiter with a screwed up uniform meeting with two prospective recruits -- I will find an excuse to get the E6 away from the recruits and correct him privately while giving the recruits the appearance that I have a professional question or I'm an old buddy so as not to embarrass the recruiter or make him look bad in front of the recruits.

Heck, when I was an E3 about 2-months out of boot camp I politely asked an O6 "Excuse me sir. Aren't you supposed to be uncovered in here?" (He took off his cover, responded professionally, and gave me a hint how to be more subtle about correcting senior officers in crowded areas)

Response by SFC Daniel Helms made Apr 8 at 2015 6:20 PM

SFC Daniel Helms — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:20:37 -0400

I would rather Soilders be able to fight than snivle over the wear of the uniform while at home. I could see if the Soldier was acting in an official capacity where it would have a direct impact.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:36:38 -0400

Quite honestly this is a question that you, as a Major, should not have had to ask. I could see an LT not knowing, but not a Major. A private could have corrected you, and under general authority he or she would be well within their rights to do so. That said, a private had better use some tact.

Is it the SGM's neighborhood? Heck, everything belongs to a SGM, just ask one. You live off post, but you need to remember that you represent the armed forces whenever you are in uniform. It's important to do the right thing even when you think nobody is looking.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:44 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:44:32 -0400

SGM should have handled it with a little more tact for sure. Regardless of on or off base, we have to maintain the standards which govern how we properly wear our uniform. Public most likely doesn't know our standards as written, but we do in uniform.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:46:09 -0400

MAJ Jim Steven Sir, I applaud you for admitting to the violation, and that you were wrong by doing so. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen much when an Officer reaches field grade... Although Officers make standards, one of a NCOs primary duties is to enforce those standards. That being said, the SGM should have definitely spoken to you in a tactful way. Lastly, when anyone makes a correction to a superior in a way that could be viewed as disrespectful, they lose the "upper hand" in the situation. Good post, Sir.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Apr 8 at 2015 7:47 PM

SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:47:49 -0400

Well sir, the SGM was correct about the wearing of the hat. After all the AR doesn't make a distinction between home or work, its a blanket statement "when not indoors".

Now, since you are a MAJ and he is a SGM, I would have pulled rank back on him.

Since you outrank him, technically it is "your" neighborhood.

And yes sir, that part about it being "his neighborhood" was uncalled for and disrespectful.

.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 8:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:39:27 -0400

Sir,

I think the SGM was correct in addressing your uniform infraction. Could more tact have been employed? Probably. But that doesn't make him wrong, nor does your rank make you right.

One of my past 1SGs summed up this issue succinctly: "Your rank doesn't come off with your uniform." Regardless of the environment or apparel worn, we still need to conduct ourselves as military professionals.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 8:40 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:40:46 -0400

I whole heartedly agree with someone correcting you in His neighborhood or Your neighborhood. If your going to wear the uniform then wear it the right way. It's one thing to forget headgear and dash inside but another to take the dog for a stroll.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Apr 8 at 2015 8:40 PM

TSgt David Holman — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:40:58 -0400

This is a common courtesy thing that I think a lot of people have lost. First things first, if you are not in compliance with regulations, then you are not in compliance and are in the wrong, regardless of where you are. That being said, there is a proper way to correct someone, and that doesn't sound like it.

With that said, I can't even begin to count the number of airmen/soldiers that I saw while stationed at JBER going out to their car/to their house without their cover. I would even come home, and take the dog out and stand out without my cover while smoking... I view it as that members home, and unless they are being a complete idiot about it don't even give it a second look.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Apr 8 at 2015 9:15 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:15:53 -0400

You admitted you were in the wrong. Regardless of whether the class thinks the Sgt Maj was a douche you brought it on yourself. Deflecting towards him doesn't change that fact. This is no different than not shaving and leaving the house to go somewhere. In the back of your mind you know the risk you might get lifed out is there. Be an adult and take the butt chewing and move forward.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 9:35 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:35:31 -0400

Superior or not tact and respect when making the correction is always proper leadership. He want wrong to mention it; he was wrong to say it in a demeaning way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 10:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400

Sir,
AR 670-1 has no stipulation in it for "when you're off post" or around your neighborhood (etc...). While the SGM/CSM may have been a bit more tactful in how he addressed it with you, I am sure his tone may have been a result of being under the impression that you were "another Officer that thinks he's above the rules" (yes, it happens... more than you think).

It is key, as leaders that we always portray our service in the best light, that includes enforcing the regulations and standards in our day-to-day lives. Believe it or not, our neighbors know WHO we are.

I remember (a long time ago) being taught during basic training that my public impressions are not how the pubic sees me any more... but how they see the Army.

I leave you with this parting thought. When a service member, or former service member, commits a crime does the headline read "local man committed a crime" or does it say, "Fort Living Room Soldier Committed This Heinous Crime"?

Response by SFC Michael Dillman made Apr 8 at 2015 11:01 PM

SFC Michael Dillman — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:01:19 -0400

Regardless of where you are, or what you're doing, wear the uniform correctly or don't wear it at all. Don't embarrass your comrades, and don't make yourself a target by wearing your uniform off duty.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:06 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:06:18 -0400

How is jolly old Sumter, SC these days?

The CSM has a point that it would be according to regulation to have a cover on. However, there is no need to be curt or impolite with the major.

I've walked out the front door at 0430 and to the car in the driveway plenty of times without having a cover on. Do I know I'm in the wrong, yes.

I'm sure there are bigger issues to fix than a cover on a major. It makes the CSM seem like the myth of the CSM that is mostly concerned with someone walking on the grass or having a hand in the pocket. As an army, we have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't take it too personally. Maybe the CSM has a chip on his shoulder.

In Sumter, should have just invited him to come on the step for a glass of sun tea.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:52:05 -0400

Technically he was right. As a 17 yr veteran and currently a SFC, I wouldn't have made the correction in that particular setting, especially in the manner in which he did. In the end it's just better to be right and not put yourself in that situation. It wasn't direspectful making the correction, but going off of how you say he made the correction, I believe he was disrespectful in the way in which he did it. He didn't have to be an ass about it.

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made Apr 8 at 2015 11:52 PM

SGT Anthony Bussing — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:52:10 -0400

dont wear your uniform off post and you wont have these issues...yes, going home for lunch and at night is ok, but damn, how hard is it to throw your cover on? if you wear your PTs, tuck in the shirt...there is an old military saying "do the right thing, even when no one is watching" because you never know WHO is actually watching...

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made Apr 8 at 2015 11:53 PM

SGT Anthony Bussing — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:53:59 -0400

damn officers....lol...

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Apr 8 at 2015 11:57 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:57:47 -0400

I would not correct you in my neighborhood as I want a neighborly relationship, not a command relationship and that being said, 670-1 does not stop based on location. I do not like hats but will wear one from my apartment to my truck every morning. People see me and I am not excluded from 670-1 ever.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 1:01 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 01:01:05 -0400

My biggest issue with the situation and comments is not that or how the SGM corrected the Maj. It's that the Maj knew what he was doing was wrong and continued to do it anyway. Intentional willful violation of a standard. Maj how would you handle one of your soldiers who intentionally and willfully violated an order you gave him/her?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 3:19 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 03:19:48 -0400

I'm admittedly ignorant of Army regs, but in the Marine Corps, and as you admit it is in the Army, if you're outside, you required to be covered. You clearly do this as a matter of routine, not just going from the car to the house on occasion. Staff NCOs are the keepers of tradition and enforcers of discipline, particularly SgtsMaj. So a SgtMaj saw you (probably not for the first time) walking around your neighborhood uncovered and in uniform, and corrected you. All service members have jurisdiction and authority of all others regardless of where you're located. You're not a Major in the Army only while on post. Uniform regulations don't end at the post gate. Respect is also not optional, but I don't think he was being disrespectful. I think he was correcting someone who should know better and no one trumps the SgtMaj when it comes to discipline. Even the generals listen to the SgtsMaj. I'm sure this is a culture thing that the Army could easily fix by prohibiting the wearing of cammies off base like the Marine Corps does.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 5:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 05:47:40 -0400

You always have to be respectful: But SGM's are Old School and with your ranked he might have thought You were not Leading by Example. Soldiers soldier 24/7 and you are accountable 24/7 and if the SGM's are the ones enforcing the Regulations then the of is at an all time low. Soldiers fix themselves then work to fix others: No Excuses review 607-1

Response by SGT Corey Franks made Apr 9 at 2015 9:00 AM

SGT Corey Franks — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 09:00:07 -0400

You should always be in the proper uniform. Always...

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 9:42 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 09:42:15 -0400

Sir, respectfully speaking, Army Regulations apply 24/7, on and off post, correct? I, personally, might not make a big deal. As long I am within the confines of my immediate residence I may do the same, but when I go past a turn or intersection (whichever comes first), I am in the prescribed uniform. I would expect the next person to as well.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 9:43 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 09:43:21 -0400

MAJ Miller-

You are either in uniform or not. There is no grey area wrt proper uniform. The SGM once stopped me for a uniform violation - wrong fuzzy hat with black fuzzy jacket - but he was polite and respectful. I am sure if you revisit the conversation you may recognize that he was showing no disrespect. A Private should feel empowered to say something if he notices a violation - this is supposed to be the type of community we share here.

Your hat belongs upon your head whenever you are outdoors, unless in a specifically deisgnated no-hat area. This includes walking from your car to your house, unless you park in the garage, which is covered. Not a grey area. What is so difficult with wearing your hat, anyway?

LTC Kracke - DJIMO

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:15 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:15:21 -0400

I don't always wear my beret when I'm walking from my truck to my front door, but I know I'm 100% in the wrong when I do it. I absolutely would not be mad if someone corrected me, regardless of their rank.

Just knowing the reg/instruction is enough authority to correct improper uniform wear.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:26:29 -0400

Sir,

I am pretty sure that AR 670-1 didn't say except when I think no one is looking and I just do my own thing.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:39 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:39:08 -0400

Point 1: When you are wrong, it always is the weaker point to start from in any confrontation, regardless of rank
Point 2: You said you were in PTs when he stopped you. Had the SGM seen you at lunch and was then looking to correct you on that discrepancy later that evening. That seems like the much stranger point.
Point 3: You go home for lunch?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 11:13 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:13:49 -0400

What is your take on this...? We don’t get a take. We joined the Military, the Military didn’t join us. Unless there is something in the regulation that turns the rules off at a certain time or boundary line then we are to abide by those direct orders all the time. Regulations and policies are not up to interpretation.

What is any service member's jurisdiction and authority when off post and not performing a military duty?? A service member’s jurisdiction is global as it pertains to other service members. It’s one of the things that sets out profession apart. If I can tell you off when we are off post but need to yes sir/no sir you on then the dynamic of our professional relationship is compromised. It’s the very reason that the fraternization rules surfaced.

Sir,

When someone is out of uniform, does that change the dynamic between you two? No, you’re still sir and I’m still hey you..... ppl that don’t like that need to get out or MY Army.

If you feel he was disrespectful (I said, if...), is Respect (or any Army value) optional while adhering to 670-1 mandatory? I think that he was wrong IF he didn’t say "You need to be in the right uniform, Sir." Outside of that I don’t think that he was wrong. I guess he could have gotten out of the car, went to attention, requested permission to speak and then said it but none the less. You can correct ppl without being disrespectful.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 11:32 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:32:20 -0400

My guess is the crusty SGM had a rough day and was looking for someone to take it out on. You draw more flies with honey than vinegar, so he could have been more professional. Were you out of uniform and violating the uniform code? Most likely, but I gaurantee that SGM has some skeletons in his closet...glass houses.....

My response to him would have been "noted!".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 11:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:40:40 -0400

Was the CSM right to make the correction? Sure, policy and regulation are not negotiable. But I think we should address the larger issue here. Why are we so obsessed with hats? Maybe it's time to just move on from the whole cover debacle. On, off, on, off, on, off, I spend half my day messing around with hats. You don't see our military's highest trained operators freaking out about them, maybe we should follow their example and make a few changes to AR 670-1.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 9 at 2015 12:48 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:48:34 -0400

I think the SGM could have handled the situation better but he is correct about the infraction. If we start letting the "little things" slip, before long the whole idea of standards and regulations goes out the window.

Response by Capt Julia Shemek made Apr 9 at 2015 2:38 PM

Capt Julia Shemek — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:38:28 -0400

I agree you (we) are 24/7 active duty especially when in uniform, you are setting the example of every member of service. All it takes is one individual for the wrong information to get out. Especially when a junior enlisted / officer are watching us. Lead by example "Integrity is doing the right thing when NO one else is watching," that stands true in this situations as well.

Second, respect for the rank is should always be honored as well. No matter the situation - you may not like the person but respecting the rank is essential!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 10:28 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 22:28:21 -0400

Some people just don't have anything better to do. I met Chiefs in Qutar that were on the hunt for people missing reflective belts and a Master Sergeant in North Dakota that searched for people wearing square shaped ear rings. It was very rude. It is ok to correct someone respectfully but your goal should not be to embarrass them.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 9:57 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:57:07 -0400

Its the job of every good NCO, in uniform or not, to make sure uniform standards are upheld. I feel it is even more important off post in the public eye. Its also the duty of everyone in the military to adhere to our standards and not try to find ways around them. The are very easy to follow.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 11:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:39:19 -0400

With all due respect Sir,

The problem I see us running into is that yes it is just from your car to the house but then what happens when you stop to get gas? its only a few feet as well if you need to go inside so is that ok? I've seen the same thing of Soldiers "running" into the grocery store real quick doing the same thing. what happens is you do it for a few feet at home then it becomes routine to do it a few feet everywhere. You also say you walked your dog around the street so now you are back in public walking with no cover. If you know SGM's, 99% of the time they don't care how little or big the violation of 670-1 is they are going to correct you and they do it with authority. As well they should because they have it. NCO's need to enforce the standard at all times regardless of who is violating them. The respect is not optional but it says "treat people as they should be treated." Not adhering to the standards is not being respectful. if a guy is walking around wearing a Ranger tab and is not a Ranger do you think a Ranger that catches him should be like "Excuse me kind sir, could you please not wear that tab?" no they are disrespecting what that tab represents and should be treated accordingly. With that being said tact is a very good tool for an NCO to have in their bag and should be used, especially when addressing an individual that out ranks you. He may have been out of line cause that's how I would expect him to address a subordinate but bottom line for me is if you cant take getting chewed out by a SGM for being wrong, don't be wrong.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 10:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:51:00 -0400

General military authority!
It's easy follow rules no problem, don't follow rules problem!
Wear it all or wear none

Response by Cpl Justin Sowell made Apr 10 at 2015 11:02 PM

Cpl Justin Sowell — Fri, 10 Apr 2015 23:02:57 -0400

Things like this had a big part to do with me getting out of the Marines. I get the fact that you shouldn't degrade the uniform, but the military (especially the Corps) takes it to a whole new level. Guys need to breathe when their off duty. If you can't even walk your dog without getting b****ed at for something stupid then there is a problem. I loved the infantry, but I hated the garrison part of the Corps. I joined to defend my country. Not play dress up. Yes you shouldn't go out of your way to be a shitbag, but walking your dog in a cul-de-sac where you live without a cover isn't a big deal. It's not going to get anybody killed in country, and it's not like it really degrades anybody. I get that I'll probably get negative feedback for this, but if it doesn't compromise the mission then what's the big deal? I was taught mission accomplishment is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. Everything else is just BS.

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 6:30 PM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:30:41 -0400

If you are going to wear the uniform, you need to wear it correctly. I change out of my uniform at the end of the day and I only wear it when I need to (I'm a surgeon so at work I typically am in scrubs). But when I wear it, I do it correctly. I was Infantry and a Drill Sergeant when I was enlisted so I take that pretty seriously. I have (tactfully and respectfully) corrected soldiers off post for uniform violations, and have been corrected when I inadvertently made a mistake myself.

Having said that, the CSM was out of line when talking to you like that. There are tactful ways to correct people above you and your uniform violation does not give him free reign to talk to you like a private.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 10:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:05:58 -0400

You are a Soldier/Airmen/Marine/Sailor 24/7 on or off post. Being in your "neighborhood" does not relieve you of your duty and obligations to uphold the standards as set forth in regulations. You are an ambassador to your branch of service and are always under scrutiny from the American Taxpayer. When there is a someone is out of regulation and one stops to correct that problem, using tact is the way to go. Unless, said person decides to be a dirtbag, then tact goes out the window!!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 12:24 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 12:24:12 -0400

I call this "MY Air Force" all the time. People understand that I am not being a douche about it, just being honest and factual. :D

Honestly though, good on him for addressing an issue about and to the superior, but nah - E9 or not...a little more respect is in order.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Apr 30 at 2015 12:57 PM

BG David Fleming III — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 12:57:48 -0400

I've done it myself. Nevertheless, I should've taken off my uniform before going outside or been in proper dress. We set the standard, especially at the senior ranks. Once you lower your standard, that becomes a new standard!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 23 at 2015 6:15 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:15:52 -0400

You should have head butted him.

Response by CPL Modesto Macia-Perez made Aug 27 at 2015 1:43 PM

CPL Modesto Macia-Perez — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:43:09 -0400

I ETS in '85 and back then we didn't have the PT uniforms I see posted, but when in BDU's or Class A uniforms you wear it 100% regulation. With these PT uniforms I don't know what the regulation is.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 2:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:03:56 -0400

It's already been said repeatedly that the SGM was correct but maybe not very tactful. Based on what's in the story, this is clearly not the first time he has seen you out of uniform. Since you were in PTs for this story I can only assume that you must not have had on your PT belt, which is clearly a violation of AR 670-SGM! PT belts save lives sir!!! The SGM had to stop and say something, otherwise your death would be on him!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2015 1:40 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:40:53 -0400

MAJ Jim Steven Sir, I believe it is up to all members of any branch to be enforcers of all lawful orders. The authority I feel is moral because in this case you outranked him. Does it change the dynamic yes, because he is in the right for correcting you on your deficiency. He should had respect for your rank if nothing else and should have handled the situation with more tact as any subordinate should when correcting someone senior.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Apr 22 at 2017 7:19 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Sat, 22 Apr 2017 07:19:19 -0400

When you are out of uniform, you are out of compliance and subject to disciplinary action.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 11:42 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 11:42:53 -0500

Am I the only one that gets out of the uniform ASAP when I get home? Nip this whole thing in the bud by changing into proper attire for the task at hand.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Dec 8 at 2017 12:26 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:26:52 -0500

Technically if you're in uniform you need to be wearing it correctly regardless of where you are or when you're wearing it. The SGM was well within his duty, authority and obligations to make an on the spot correction regardless of weather you're a PVT or a General.
Where I differ is the approach taken, I can think of a whole load of scenarios that would have gotten the correction across in a less combative manner. Tact is still a leadership trait and in this story it's a little lacking.
Best course of action in my opinion is wear your uniform correctly then no one especially pesky Sergeants Major will bother you.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 8 at 2017 12:32 PM

SPC David Willis — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:32:05 -0500

I don't think anyone will gig you for leaving it the car and going from your driveway to your door without cover. If you're going to walk around the neighborhood though its gotta be on. That being said I would have been a little irritated at him calling it HIS neighborhood.

Response by CPL Donald McKenna made Dec 8 at 2017 12:54 PM

CPL Donald McKenna — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:54:37 -0500

I agree with the need to wear headgear while in full ACU uniform outdoors, regardless of where you are, unless on a flightline, for example. That said, the "On the spot correction" was made while he was wearing PT's, not ACU's. Is there a PT headgear requirement nowadays (been out since '07)? Because that's what I'm taking away from this example since the SGM corrected the MAJ while he was in the latter uniform.

Response by COL William Oseles made Dec 8 at 2017 1:33 PM

COL William Oseles — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 13:33:53 -0500

If you feel he is being disrespectful ask to see his ID to prove he is a SGM.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 1:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 13:37:17 -0500

We had a NCOPD a few years ago and something like this was brought up to the CSM.

NCO: Don’t we have bigger and better things to worry about than a simple uniform violation?

CSM: Yes but it’s about Standards and Discipline. Whether you agree or disagree with standard is irrelevant. As NCOs, we are here to enforce standards dictated by Army Regulation. If we lack the discipline to adhere to the “small things”, how can we be trusted to handle the bigger and better things.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 2:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 14:25:23 -0500

How could you get to your rank and not know that the authority and responsibility to make corrections is not location dependent? You are showing sloppiness and disregard to the civilians around you; not what the Army needs.

Response by SFC David Xanten made Dec 8 at 2017 2:29 PM

SFC David Xanten — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 14:29:54 -0500

When wearing the Uniform you're either doing it correctly or your not and if not someone should correct you. You a little tact so as not to rile up the person being corrected but the violation still needs correcting.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Dec 8 at 2017 5:08 PM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 17:08:28 -0500

When you are out in the "neighborhood" that means you are more out with the public. By being out there you are representing all the Army. He was right in pointing it out, he should have used a bit more tact though.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2017 6:27 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:27:22 -0500

Major, are you asking for our take on the regulation you know you were violating or the fact that SGM so and so emphasized it was HIS neighborhood? I don't think he was trying to claim ownership to the neighborhood. I like to take pride where I am living. So I keep my house clean inside and out and such. My guess id he just would like you to wear your cover when required and their is no need for this discussion.

Response by SN James MacKay made Dec 9 at 2017 11:22 AM

SN James MacKay — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 11:22:51 -0500

One of my sons is a 1SG, in the Army Signal Corps. One of his mentors, when he was a young soldier, and a man he reveres to this day, was meticulous in his dress and demeanor, in and out of uniform. When my son asked him why he never wavered from his standard, his reply was, "The Privates are always watching." In this case, it was a SGM, not a private that was watching, but the lesson is that same. If one is in uniform, one should be setting an example.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2017 1:30 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 13:30:12 -0500

He was right. You were wrong. Regs are there for a reason and as a SGM he takes it seriously, as he should. Maybe tact is not his strong suit. Without hearing his side we don't know, but unless he was blatantly disrespectful it was possibly just his style. I wouldn't sweat the "my neighborhood" comment. To him it is his because that's where he lives. In the interest of harmony you might consider reaching out to him as a neighbor if your paths cross. Or not.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2017 3:21 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 15:21:00 -0500

Everything seemed to be great until the Smadge’s ego got the better of him and now I hope he sees this and learns a good lesson in tact and respect. “My neighborhood” really? Pound sand with that attitude.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Dec 9 at 2017 7:44 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 19:44:58 -0500

I'm just going to say keep your military bearings wherever you at in and out of uniform.

Response by SFC John Raymer made Feb 18 at 2018 6:34 AM

SFC John Raymer — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 06:34:50 -0500

You're required to wear it. He is doing his job. Do they right thing at ALL times. Set the example for all soldiers to follow.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2019 8:05 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:05:04 -0400

I just would like to say thank you for this post! As I was curious about the uniform requirements while walking my battle dogs off post during my lunch break.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Mar 27 at 2021 2:48 AM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 02:48:33 -0400

A lifer with nothing else to do. I thought it was "...OUR neighborhood..." Everyone needs breathing room and home seems to be the place to get it. I've had officers and enlisted living next to me for the past 30 years. I see nothing wrong with playing 'catch' with the kids or sitting on the front porch having a 'cold' one. Be sure to mark him off your Christmas list.