Uniform of the Day . . . Comfort or Professionalism?

Sgt William Biggs — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:44:21 -0400

My question, to the RallyPoint community, is what do you think is best for service members concerning uniforms. Personally, I find the idea of wearing the service uniform, daily, is a horrendous idea birthed from an unknown good idea fairy. Service uniform Fridays are uncomfortable or annoying, but I can understand their necessity in a less war-time driven military. What are your thoughts? Will this help in retention rates or esprit de corps?

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Marines can now vote on switching to service "bravos" or "charlies" as the uniform of the day year-round — or doing away with the desert camouflage utility uniform altogether.

Those are two of the proposals in a new survey launched by the Marine Corps Uniform Board this week, ahead of the board's next meeting in August. The survey, available to active-duty and Reserve Marines through an online portal, includes three uniform changes for Marines to consider, some with sub-recommendations.

Marines' feedback on all these questions will not determine the way ahead on these uniform questions, but may be a major influence on final decisions, said Marine Corps Uniform Board manager Mary Boyt.

"The survey results will be briefed at the formal Uniform Board meeting during the deliberation phase of the process and will be briefed to the commandant and his staff in conjunction with the formal Uniform Board recommendation on the issues," she said.

Here is a look at the changes being considered:

Changing seasonal uniforms
Marines can vote on three separate recommendations affecting the uniform of the day. The first recommendation would require force-level commanders to establish and coordinate seasonal uniform periods based on the climate in their area of operation. Currently, Marines worldwide are on the same seasonal uniform cycle; they wear desert camouflage utilities in the spring and summer, and woodland cammies in the fall and winter, rotating uniforms with the change in daylight saving time.

This seasonal uniform change was mandated in 2008 by the commandant at the time, Gen. James Conway. It came after the Marines completed development of their prized Marine pattern utilities uniform, and was designed to bring uniformity to the Corps' look worldwide. However, this homogeneous approach has long presented a challenge for troops living in widely varied climates around the world.

The second recommendation would remove the Marine Corps combat utility uniform, or cammies, from the seasonal rotation altogether. Rather, commanders would dictate the appropriate cammies uniform on a non-seasonal basis, taking into account climate and training requirements. This would give a commander in Okinawa, Japan, for example, the ability to keep Marines there in woodland cammies year-round while enabling a commander in Twentynine Palms, California, to mandate year-round desert camouflage.

A third option would make the more formal service uniform the uniform of the day, reserving cammies for fieldwork, training or deployments only. If this option is selected, the relevant Marine commander could still make exceptions based on climate, weather and training requirements. Right now, the "bravo" or "charlie" service uniform is only the uniform of the day on Fridays. Service uniform Fridays were established in 2013 by then-Commandant Gen. James Amos in an effort to improve Marines' professional appearance and crack down on overweight troops taking advantage of the looser-fitting utility uniform.

The question of changes to seasonal uniform regulations had been designated for discussion at a Uniform Board meeting this winter, Boyt said. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford's staff requested the issue get an earlier look due to several seasonal uniform change waiver requests that had been submitted from around the fleet this year. This spring, unseasonably chilly weather in the National Capitol Region prompted Headquarters Marine Corps to grant a one-month delay on rolling sleeves up. Marines stationed in the region switched to the desert cammies summer uniform with the rest of the Corps in early March, but were allowed to keep their sleeves down until April 1.

Ditching desert utility cammies
Marines can vote on whether to do away with the requirement to maintain utility uniforms in the desert MARPAT color scheme. If this option is approved, Marines would be required to maintain four woodland MARPAT cammies uniforms instead.

This proposal represents a cost-saving measure for Marines, Boyt said.

Desert MARPAT cammies were added to the Marines' sea bag in 2003, she said, to ensure Marines had two styles of utility uniforms to meet any contingency requirements. But in 2006, Marines began deploying with flame resistant organizational gear as their combat uniform rather than desert MARPAT because of the threat of improvised explosive devices on the ground.

'[Desert cammies] will only be worn in combat in the absence of an IED threat," Boyt said. "Removing the desert MARPAT uniforms from the minimum requirement list will save the Marine Corps money as Marines will no longer be paid to maintain two different styles of utilities."

If this recommendation is adopted, Marines deploying to desert environments would be issued FROG uniforms or desert cammies, said Capt. Dominic Pitrone, a spokesman for Headquarters Marine Corps. Marines deploying to wooded or jungle environments would be able to wear their issued woodland utilities.

A unisex dress blue coat
Marines are asked whether they prefer to keep the current, blazer-like female dress blue coat with a lapel collar, or adopt a prototype redesign that resembles the male version, with a high mandarin collar. Marines can also vote to keep the current coat, but adopt the redesign as a special-assignment item to be issued on a more specific basis. For example, Female Marines in ceremonial units might receive the modified jacket, while others might not.

This question comes after two years of tests and experiments with new looks for female dress blues. Research began with a wear test of a mandarin-collar dress coat for female Marines in ceremonial units at Marine Barracks Washington in July 2013. The testing coincided with the advent of gender-neutral physical standards for male and female Marines and a push to open more combat jobs to women.

“As we’re re-evaluating the role of women in the Marine Corps as a whole,” Barracks spokesman Capt. Jack Norton said at the time, “we’re also re-evaluating the uniforms that are being used.”

The Marine Corps has since expanded the wear test to the entire Washington region. In January and February, officials toured stateside Marine bases to solicit feedback on the new look.

Research on the coat is now complete, Boyt said. A decision on how to adopt the new look will be made during the August Uniform Board meeting.

Historically, Marines' survey responses have played a limited role in the process. Amos pushed out a short-lived year-round "sleeves down" policy despite the objections of 61 percent of Marine respondents in 2011, before reversing his decision in 2013. Marine officials responded quickly, however, to outcry over a 2013 Uniform Board survey question regarding adoption of a rounded "Dan Daly" dress cap in place of the traditional male white dress cover. After the Internet ignited over the prospect of Marines being forced to wear "girly hats," the Corps published a statement reassuring Marines that there was no intention of changing the classic male cover.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/07/22/marine-corps-uniform-board-proposes-radical-new-changes/30468149/

Marine Corps uniform board proposes radical new changes

A third option would make the more formal service uniform the uniform of the day, reserving cammies for fieldwork, training or deployments only.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 22 at 2015 11:46 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:46:52 -0400

I believe in uniformity. No pun intended. It builds esprit de corps. I am a believer that everyone should look the same.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jul 23 at 2015 2:01 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 02:01:06 -0400

Having done a tour in DC where everyday is Dress Uniform Day, wasn't a big fan of that. Tour in London where we wore Suit and Ties (Non-Uniform) and put on our Dress Uniform at work once a month that was better. Dungarees, Unless manning the rails or doing some other official ceremony is my preference.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 23 at 2015 7:08 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 07:08:20 -0400

I did a tour in the Fleet (Camp Pen 3/1), and a tour in Quantico (DC Metro).

At 3/1, we essentially had a very lax Service uniforms on Friday policy. On Quantico there was a BASE ORDER that required Cammies on Wednesday. Yes, Cammies had to be worn on Wednesday, to remind us that we occasionally went to the field.

Although Cammies are our most comfortable uniform, barring flight suits or coveralls, they are designed for field work. The service uniform was designed to be a parallel of a business uniform. That said, the business world evolved away from the collared shirt and slacks to the polo and khakis (for the most part), so we have a uniform which is much more formal that our civilian equivalent. Our next lower is much less formal however.

I met a Naval Commander (after I left Service) who had an interesting take on the uniforms. He believed that Tactical Uniforms should denote "Keep Away" to the Civilian Populace, while Service/Dress Uniforms should denote "Can Approach." I thought it was an interesting philosophy.

As a matter of pragmatism, you where the uniform which you are most likely to need during that day, and matches your overall unit mission. If you are in a field unit, you wear cammies, because you will likely see dirt, grime, sludge, etc. If your unit is going to be in an office, you wear the Service Uniform except on designated days, which you allocate to Motor Pool, Rifle Maintenance, etc. Hopefully you can maintain a good balance.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Jul 23 at 2015 11:18 AM

1LT William Clardy — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:18:57 -0400

Sgt William Biggs, the only reason for your service B or C uniform to be any less comfortably than your camouflage uniform would be that you didn't pay attention to such mundane details as size, or haven't invested as much effort into procuring a comfortable, durable pair of low-quarters (and appropriate socks) as you put into a good pair of combat boots and socks.

Also, why do you talk about the service uniform but then refer only to dress uniforms in your survey questions?

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2015 11:31 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:31:31 -0400

I believe that the uniform of the on Fridays should be Chucks. I will call BS on the uncomfortable concern. That uniform is no more uncomfortable that blue jeans and a button up shirt. This also gives the SNCO's another opportunity to identify and rectify overweight Marines. Semper Fidelis.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 23 at 2015 3:20 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:20:00 -0400

Uniform should depend on the duty. Office job: service uniform. Dirty job: utility or combat uniform.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2015 3:25 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:25:30 -0400

I personally am not a fan of the Dress Uniform. Too restrictive in Movement (if you want it to look good, you get the spandex things that pull down your shirt to your socks, God have mercy when they snap). I do not mind wearing Full Service for events, but not at work.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jul 24 at 2015 3:26 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:26:01 -0400

I'm going to choose per the commander. The commander should choose whatever is best operationally, and will accomplish the mission efficiently.

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Jul 24 at 2015 3:42 PM

PO1 Michael G. — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:42:52 -0400

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member 1stSGT is exactly right in what he said about uniform comfort. While I am not a Marine, I hear similar complaints from people about the Navy Service Uniform, which, while I was in Basic Enlisted Submarine School, was the uniform of the day on Tuesdays. I also draw on experience from when I sold men's clothing for the six years prior to enlisting in the Navy. I wore a jacket and tie every day to work and customers would often say, "Don't you hate that they *make* you wear that?" or "I'm a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy, suits are uncomfortable."

My co-workers and I would often laugh about people who would bellyache about wearing dress pants instead of jeans, or a shirt and tie instead of a t-shirt. Listen, If your clothes are uncomfortable, it means they don't fit, plain and simple. There's three solutions to this problem:
1. buy a different size
2. get your clothes tailored
3. (this one may shock people) get in shape.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2015 5:12 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 17:12:50 -0400

I realize that I am probably in the minority across all the services but I find the service uniform (Navy Khakis in my case) FAR more comfortable than cammies. They are cooler, lighter and look much more professional. For jobs that are likely to get dirty (motor pool, armory, working parties) absolutely they should wear cammies or coveralls. However, for the admin folks, the battalion staffs, the folks that spend 99% of they're working day in an office somewhere sitting in front of a computer and/or interacting with civilians, the service uniform should be the UOD.

Also, tied in to the comfort of the cammies, I have yet to find a pair of boots in either the Navy or the Marine Corps uniforms that don't eventually feel like they are falling down around my ankles. I guess that's just to be expected with the canvas upper boots we wear now though. I preferred the support of the all leather jump boots I wore while in the Army.

Response by Sgt Melanie Starkman made Jul 24 at 2015 5:52 PM

Sgt Melanie Starkman — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 17:52:26 -0400

Oh, my god - seriously?? I totally agree with Lt Col Jim Coe - office job: service uniform. Dirty job: utility or combat uniform, however no stopping some where off base unless emergency - filling your gas tank or running in to get something to drink from the 7/11 is not an emergency! You want to stop somewhere after work wear the service uniform - look like Marines, not every other sloppy service members.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Jul 25 at 2015 2:35 PM

PO3 David Davis — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 14:35:36 -0400

I can say during my service as a corpsman we wore are season inform of service working whites or Blues or tan, cammo, and dungarees. Or our Marine uniforms we earned. Depending on the region in the world we worked and the time of year. It was not that difficult and I liked rotatiing uniforms.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 3:12 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 15:12:48 -0400

I agree that comfortability is not a factor here. In my opinion, the issue lies in the question, "Are these changes practical to the mission and future missions of the Corps." Chucks on Fridays, good for admin, but terrible for marines whom have to get their hands dirty every day. Getting rid of deserts, this is completely a "how do we look" issue. Keep it, change it, don't care.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Jul 25 at 2015 4:22 PM

SrA Matthew Knight — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 16:22:43 -0400

I went with per commander which is what the AF currently has implemented. No way in hell that we should wear the dress uniforms daily, doesn't matter what your job is.

We had a commander while I was at Keesler that forced the entire squadron to wear blues everyday, on and off duty any time you left the building. This lasted about a month and a half to two months. In that time frame a large number of people had to be placed on waivers due to jacked up feet or other reactions from wearing it in the Mississippi heat so much. On top of that many of us had to invest in replacements because they were so easily ruined from being sweaty and gross and not being able to be taken care of properly with the frequency we were wearing them.

Wearing them once a week was a pain in the neck but it was tolerable. They are not meant for every day wear though. Much as I despise the ABU I am perfectly content with wearing it as my daily uniform.

Response by MSG(P) Rafael Aguilera made Jul 25 at 2015 6:15 PM

MSG(P) Rafael Aguilera — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 18:15:50 -0400

1stSgt Jim Senn is spot on. Not only can you observe HT/WTissues; it is a great opportunity to teach and train junior NCO's the proper way to hold Formations and Inspections. Depending on the unit's mission - maybe every other week would suffice.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2015 11:07 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2015 23:07:20 -0400

I understand that it differs depending on your MOS (for example, Admin types would likely not have as much difficulty with service uniforms) but I don't understand how the typical Marine unit would be able to function with such a dress code. Even as an electrician, I have to get into a lot of hands on, dirty situations in my MOS on a daily basis. This would be even worse for mechanics or - God forbid - the infantry. It's another symptom of the peace-time Marine Corps trying to reawaken some mythical quality that likely never existed outside of boot camp stories. The working uniform should be just that, a working uniform.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 11:22 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:22:45 -0400

I don't think that service Fridays are a bad idea. yes it is a bit more work than just throwing on cammies but that is just part of being a marine. the new ideas they came out with recently (1) woodlands all year (2) uniform dictated by the climate your in i.e. in 29 palms it would be deserts while in japan it would be woodlands. are good but they (3) option is horrible, wearing service all year would be a bad idea. if that was the case they would have to at least double the uniform allowance to allow for refitting and cleanings. I think having it so that the climate of your area dictates would be the best option.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 11:45 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:45:31 -0400

Who cares, weather or not they change it today or next dead terrorist I'm spending my money on uniforms

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Aug 7 at 2015 1:04 PM

SSgt Terry P. — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 13:04:32 -0400

Seems reasonable to have uniform Friday.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:14 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 13:14:13 -0400

I've worn Khakis every day for the vast majority of my career unless deployed. Recently I've had the "option" to wear the NWUs, but they do not look as professional, especially when conducting business with outside units or civilians.

As others have mentioned they are only uncomfortable if they don't fit.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 9:23 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:23:06 -0400

Sgt William Biggs, dress for comfort for sure. I thought all of our uniforms are professional.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2015 1:15 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:15:24 -0400

I have yet to see our op-tempo slow enough for service uniforms on Friday. I think by uniform decision unit discretion

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2015 10:36 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:36:11 -0400

Comfort. By far. I may be biased, though...as an aviator, I think I've worn my service dress a total of 12 times in my decade-long career. The blues a little more frequently, since we had the "blues Monday" deal...but thankfully, that's gone now as well.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2015 10:39 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:39:43 -0400

Terminal Lance - Terminal Lance #396 “Duty Doody”

Basically any uniform that isn’t your cammies is a pain in the ass to wear or put on. Even more so, it can quite literally be a pain in your ass to try and take a shitwearing shirt stays and corframs.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 21 at 2015 10:50 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:50:34 -0400

Question. What does the word uniform mean and why do we dress alike?

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made May 25 at 2018 11:13 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 25 May 2018 11:13:49 -0400

I was a Combat Heavy Construction Engineer, everything we touched was dirty, oily, dusty or greasy. We wore Class A's monthly or quarterly and for funeral details just to make sure everyone's stuff fit properly and that was it. Other than folks in very senior staff positions it seems that daily wear of the service uniform would be impractical for most folks and MOS's.