Upon second APFT failure separation is initiated. Is this progress? What are your thoughts?

2014-12-02T16:13:57-05:00

APFT Failure & Noncompliance guidelines were updated this November. As a Brigade Nutrition/Fitness SME, I believe this new slide deck makes the process easier.

What has your experience been with soldiers who never seem to pass the test?

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Dec 2 at 2014 4:27 PM

2014-12-02T16:27:42-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member I had a Soldier when I was a Company Commander who failed his APFT 3 times, finally after 18 months of failure we were able to out-process him. Now after the 2nd failure you can start paperwork it would be easier!

Response by SPC David S. made Dec 2 at 2014 4:52 PM

2014-12-02T16:52:01-05:00

With the current RIF underway not being able to pass the APFT is a good way to find your way out. Being combat arms I always held the belief that being physically fit makes your job easier. Let the paperwork begin.

Response by SPC Jack Hunt, JR made Dec 2 at 2014 4:55 PM

2014-12-02T16:55:24-05:00

Some may do it on purpose. Just saying I have suspected some soldiers of doing that when things were in a situation that wasn't favorable to them.

Response by COL Kurt Chebatoris made Dec 3 at 2014 2:14 PM

2014-12-03T14:14:20-05:00

Times are changing. In 2006 it was almost impossible to separate a Soldier, frankly for issues beyond just the APFT. The drawdown has clearly shifted the focus and the new guidelines are helpful. I sat on many separation boards and some of the Soldiers clearly just were looking for a way out. Failing the APFT may become the method of individual choice. Don't discount the difference between the AC and RC as to separations. Although the drawdown effects both components, the RC is still not at authorized strength. The action/reward cycle of a Reserve Company Commander for separations of any sort, APFT or other, will be different from his Active counterpart.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 8:06 PM

2014-12-05T20:06:57-05:00

Failing an APFT is bad enough but doing it twice, ummm yeah, seek employment elsewhere.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 5 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-12-05T21:07:09-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member Ma'am, I had a Soldier when I deployed who had failed APFT and just as separation proceedings started he would pass. When we deployed, I held him to a standard. He passed the APFT and met the guidelines in AR 600-9 for body fat. As his 1SG I felt it was my duty to help this Soldier grow beyond his own limitations. During counseling it was determined many previous 1SGs promised this Soldier a promotion which he never received and he became disenchanted. Once he passed two APFTs I boarded him and recommended to the CDR that he be promoted. The CDR agreed (knew the Soldiers history well) and he was promoted. This Soldier has maintained his PT program and Height and Weight and has now been promoted another grade.

I related that story to say, each case is still different. We must know our Soldiers, train our Soldiers, and in some cases develop individual plans which allow the Soldier that latitude to succeed. As a CDR you know the burden rests with you. As 1SG I make recommendations, but the responsibility (the blame line) is yours. That said, if Soldiers refuse, malinger, or simply cannot pass APFT, with no injury or illness which would preclude it, then they must be processed out.

Thank you for this question and the opportunity to respond.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-12-05T21:38:06-05:00

Ma'am,

In my company if a soldier fails a record APFT (first time) he/she will be flagged and bared. That soldier has four I'll say it again four months before he/she can be give another APFT for record. If said individual fails again I start Chapter paper work. Now of course if the soldier has a medical reason why they can't take another APFT they will be allotted the proper amount of time to recover and then be administered their APFT. Cut and dry the Army is downsizing my Commander and I should assist any way possible.
V/r
1SG Haro

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 12:01 PM

2014-12-11T12:01:53-05:00

I say good riddance. Lets get someone in here that isn't wasting air.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 7:35 PM

2014-12-11T19:35:59-05:00

I had a Soldier who failed every PT test since AIT. As noted elsewhere, it was virtually impossible to separate a Soldier for this reason during the height of the wars, so he stayed a PFC for five years. No matter what I tried to motivate him, he was always 30 seconds too slow, and/or 3-5 sit ups short.
A year ago, we were mobilizing to go the JTF-HOA. I pulled his NCOs in and explained to them in no uncertain terms that they were going to remedy this problem while we were at JBMDL. In the meantime, we were going to do organized PT for everyone until everyone was a go on PT. He wasn't the only no go, but he was the one that no one thought would pass.
His NCOs brought him to the gym every afternoon. They ran him all over post. They gave him a little "extra love" between training sessions.

Five weeks later, by God he passed. I never saw a troop more happy to pin on SPC rank.

I am glad that he wasn't thrown out. He might not be a career Soldier, but I know that reaching the goals he had when he enlisted, to deploy and accomplish the mission, will be carried with him for life.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 14 at 2014 8:21 PM

2014-12-14T20:21:14-05:00

Yes, if it's enforced equally across the board, yes it is progress. If it is enforced upon the officer corps yes it is progress. if it's enforced upon the NCO Corps, yes it is progress.

If it is enforced....... Yes it is progress.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 9:00 PM

2014-12-14T21:00:16-05:00

What I do not understand......people who fail the pt test, when exercise at 0630 is manditory. So, the question should really be how are we failing as a whole on physical exercise? I have people in my unit who cant do 17 push ups. Yeap, I said it 17, ridiculous. Its up to leaders to ensure their soldiers are phyical fir by the Army Standard.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 9:10 PM

2014-12-14T21:10:53-05:00

Ma'am, I thought this was in regulations years ago, but changed to require at least 8 months in between now as opposed to just two failures. We all have a bad day and some get injured as well and that counts as failure if they push it as well. This allows for the Soldier the benefit of the doubt and ensure that the leaders are not trying to just capitalize on the failure to process them out. Now I have only heard of some getting processed out like this as up until a few weeks ago the key was to keep everyone in to get the funding. Different commands enforce or have priorities of packets....

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 5:40 PM

2015-01-25T17:40:34-05:00

How will this be applied to the reserves? 80% of the Army health care strength, is in the reserves. Being a soldier healthcare I can say we are not typically known as PT studs. Our one weekend a month isn't typically enough to keep us in shape so 80-90% of our fitness training is done on personal time. Valuable surgeons, OR nurses, ICU & ER nurses, and other personnel who take many years to train and become competent, and are not easily replaced, and in many cases are in high demand by the Army.
Will you apply the same standards to them, as an 11B infantry? How willing will the Army be to kick out a full bird COL neurosurgeon with 20 years of operating room experience because he/she failed a APFT test?
If you will not kick the neurosurgeon out after two fails, or whatever you set the standard at, then you can not be an advocate for one standard.
Does the surgeon really need to run fast, shoot straight, or carry a heavy load? Or do you want him to cut straight and true around the brain and spine?
----Just being the devils advocate----

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2017 2:47 AM

2017-10-24T02:47:45-04:00

I have been reading this and still kind of confused with an answer. If a person takes a pt test fail it. Then comes back and passes it. I am talking about two records. Then the soldier has been on profile for about 4 months. Then another record is required. If they fail that one. Is that justification to get kicked out the army. Good soldier, just got the promotable status. So needs the record to not lost the status. She is scared because she hasnt had enough time to get in shape. If she fails being though they are not consecutive is that means for chapter?

Response by Cpl Jimmy Crutcher made Feb 16 at 2018 1:24 PM

2018-02-16T13:24:38-05:00

I hear a lot of positive words from 1sgts to NCO on this page, but what I hear from my son in Colorado is totally opposite. short staffed, long work days, poor leadership, barely no time for PT, it’s like it’s easier to chapter you out than work with you. I know we are all just a number and can be replaced tomorrow. I was under the impression that as leaders we help our troops. I guess times have changed.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 16 at 2018 11:12 PM

2018-02-16T23:12:51-05:00

IMHO, it does too things, it gives Commanders a chance to boot the deadweight, but it also shows the lack of commitment we have tot he troops under our charge. WHat caused the troop to fail, overweight okay get rid of them if they can't comply, the counter argument is we use a PT test that frankly sucks at measuring anything of usefulness. Tell me how running two miles makes an artillery crew perform better? Does doing X amount of push ups get that Browning .50 down to the motor pool any faster? Will doing more situps get the track on the M-1 Replaced any faster? Tell me when was the last time an Army got into PT gear to charge or retreat from anyone? What are we measuring? I would rather of a motor pool of guys who can repair equipment than have a bunch of PT studs who run around in pressed uniforms and can't do jack diddly squat any day. This is just another case of a post war army looking ot do something to make up for their screw ups.