USAR: On orders during BA - must be made up or no?

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:02:43 -0400

If you're on orders, and a battle assembly falls in that time period, I've always been taught that you don't have to make it up, that you get a 'B' code (on orders) and don't have to make it up unless you want to. Now I have a friend who's in WLC for 2 weeks, a BA falls during that time, and they're making her make it up. Does anyone have a regulatory cite to prove she doesn't have to?

UPDATE:
Thanks to my friend's chain of command just not giving a rip about their Soldiers' civilian job commitments, as evidenced by establishing a MUTA-12 for no good reason, my friend decided to let her contract expire, and she is no longer in the Guard at all. Thanks for the advice, everyone. She's a happy civilian now.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Apr 14 at 2015 10:10 AM

LTC John Shaw — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:10:50 -0400

JD, The coding on the Commanders Pay report is based on what the Commander decides.
The soldier still needs to submit an RST exception for the WLC course and have the discussion at that time if the BA will be shifted to Alternate dates or 'excused'. Ultimately this is the commanders call.
Maybe an S1 type will tell us something different, but that is how I ran my units.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:11 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:11:48 -0400

I've always trained with the understanding that yes, you'd have to make those Drills up.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:35 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:35:30 -0400

Chief, I this past January, I had to attend a USR/YTB and I was placed on orders for this. My BTA dates fell under my order dates. My UA, who happens to be an USAR JAG NCO, stated that I am good to go and didnt have to make them up. If you would like, I can get with him and see if he and I can track an actual regulation for you?

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 14 at 2015 10:40 AM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:40:31 -0400

Edit: The following paragraph is wrong, as SSG Private RallyPoint Member 's reference to the regulation shows. It is clearly at the commander's discretion. I am leaving it unchanged, because I believe that's how it SHOULD work. Of course, that and a buck will get me a cup of coffee.

No. You cannot be required to "make up." You are already in a paid status on those days. Your recollection is exactly correct, should be coded as "on orders." End of story. This is not like an RST or and Auth Absence, where the CMD needs to approve (rather, they did when they approved the orders....)

That said, lots of units seem to decide that the rules are different than the rules. In fact, I would say most. At that point it becomes a "hill I'm willing to die on" question. In my case, I would happily "make up" the drill dates, though I don't think the reg would allow it to be as an RST - would have to be an additional drill. Having been on orders, there is nothing to reschedule.... If I had a civilian job that was highly inflexible, I might have a different opinion.

CPT Catherine R. can you supply the relevant reg(s)?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:41 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:41:02 -0400

If she wanted to make them up, and if she followed the RST policy of the command, then she could be coded an 'S'. However, if she isn't present, but is at school then the commander has to put, at the very least, at 'T'. He cannot force her to make up the time, and if he codes it anything else (A or U), then she has the orders to prove that she was in fact accounted for.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 11:08 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:08:35 -0400

BLUF: It is the Commander's discretion to excuse a Soldier from BTA.

AR 135-91 Para 3-1 states:

TPU soldiers are required to participate in at least 48 scheduled inactive duty training (IDT)s, and not less than 14 days, exclusive of travel time, of annual training. Satisfactory participation is defined below.
a. Attending all scheduled inactive duty training (IDT) (IDT)s unless excused by the unit commander or granted a leave of absence. Soldiers present at a scheduled inactive duty training (IDT) will not receive credit for attendance unless they are wearing the prescribed uniform. They must also present a neat and soldierly appearance and perform
assigned duties in a satisfactory manner as determined by the unit commander. Soldiers who do not receive credit for attendance for any of the reasons noted above will be charged with an unexcused absence (chap 4, sec III).
b. Attending and satisfactorily completing the entire period of AT unless excused by proper authority.
c. Obtaining a unit assignment during an authorized leave of absence (chap 4, sec IV).

AR 135-91 para 4-8 also states:

All situations not specifically identified in this paragraph or section V are considered unexcused absences. Absence from scheduled inactive duty training (IDT)s, training, or AT may be excused. Such absences may be excused when sickness, injury, or some other circumstance beyond the soldier’s control caused the absence. At the discretion of the
appropriate commander (para 4–2), ET may be scheduled to make up the excused absence. (See para 3–llc for excusing USAR AMEDD officers.)

AR 135-91 para 4-10:

a. Employers sometimes schedule several weeks of career training, which prevents the soldier from attending inactive duty training (IDT)s. When this occurs the circumstances may in the judgment of the unit commander, justify rescheduled training (RST) authorization,
b. Employment conflicts, overtime, schooling, and loss of income are not normally considered valid reasons for absence from training. If any of these conditions create a continuing hardship, the unit commander will refer the case through channels to the approval authority. The general officer commander (for USAR) or the State adjutant general
(for ARNGUS) will decide whether to retain or remove the soldier from the unit. While awaiting this decision, the soldier is required to participate.

There is a regulatory requirement to have approximately 85% of the unit attending the drill, but that escapes me. If I'm at school at there is a IWQ or other mandatory training to attend, I fully expect my Commander to order me to RST to complete that required training.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Apr 14 at 2015 11:45 AM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 11:45:11 -0400

From my past reserve tours orders can only make up time for annual training, but battle assembly which falls on weekends must be made up so that the numbers of battle assembly are met. There were times in which orders were cut for annual leave in which they end on a Friday so that the weekend battle assembly was used to take care of the administrative functions and supply functions after annual training.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 1:37 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:37:35 -0400

I've had the same understanding as you, that is was optional to make it up.
AR 135-91 in chapter 3 states: TPU soldiers are required to participate in at least 48 scheduled inactive duty training (IDT)s, and not less than 14 days. To me that means the Soldier would not be required to makeup the dates. She should be excused from BA because she has approved orders to be elsewhere, however like most things, it is at the commander's discretion whether or not she has to makeup her missed MUTAs.

It is better for the Soldier long-term if she intends to retire. Every day adds to her points that determines her pay in the end; AR 140-185.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 2:19 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:19:36 -0400

Technically, if you are on orders you should be coded as a "C" in the pay book. These are not allowed to be made up.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 4:21 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:21:11 -0400

I am trying to find the reg, Sir. From what I understand, the commander may require a soldier to make up training that is specific and unique, as long as EQUIVALENT training is available. Examples would be Range Qualification, CLS certification and other similar opportunities.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Apr 14 at 2015 8:35 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 20:35:43 -0400

Why is it that you only need 50 pts. to have a good year?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 9:49 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 21:49:46 -0400

I'm wondering what task is so critical that a Commander would force an E4 to drill a few more days? Sounds like some CPT trying to puff their chest. I don't get it. It smacks in the face of the CARs intent to provide work/life balance. In addition, it also violates the CARs guidance of what takes precedence, PME over BA/AT. Regardless of statute, this absolute does not pass the common sense test. There is absolutely NO training event so significant that some E4 (or anyone for that matter) needs to come back and do two more days of duty to accomplish, ESPECIALLY after putting them on ORDERS at a school during BA. SMH? Personally if one of my Company Commanders did that and the Soldier open doored me as the Battalion Commander I would grant it at my level and offer the CPT a lesson on karma. Now if the Soldier needed the money and WANTED to do a few days in the office I'd be happy to grant that RST at a mutually convenient time for them and the unit full timers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:53 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:53:41 -0400

You can make it up if you want. You have 48 Muta your allowed a year in addition to your AT

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 10:39 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:39:52 -0400

The Soldier is already getting paid for those particular dates as they are "on orders!" None of my previous Reserve units would allow that to be "made up" because of that same principle. Not to mention, many Soldiers want to make up dates for extra pay and are turned down by the UA's because they were already in a paid status.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 1:22 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 13:22:51 -0400

AR 140-1, 20 January 2004. Para 3-10.c Soldiers attending schools in ADT or AT status. Soldiers ordered to active duty under 10 USC 672 (d), 673, or 673(b) may be credited with constructive attendance if the commander determines that the service is equivalent to the training soldier would have received during the schedule IDT period and additional attendance at IDT constitutes undue personal hardship. When the above criteria are met, constructive attendance credit will be granted to soldiers who consent at attend schools in ADT status and are order to active duty under 10 USC 672(d). Soldiers order to active duty are not entitled to IDT pay for assemblies missed while on active duty.

I hear the last sentence here being abused. Yes you cannot pay a soldier IDT pay if on a duty order, but that does not stop them from rescheduling that duty period for a later time to conduct the training missed if not at on orders with the unit.

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Apr 18 at 2015 5:06 PM

SPC Lukas Jones — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:06:47 -0400

Chief, if the female you mentioned was TPU, it is at the commanders discretion as wether to allow her to miss the BA or to make it up. If she is AGR, I do not believe that is the case. There may be mitigating circumstances that we are not aware of such as if there was an SRP that weekend or a missed UA and the commander needs 100% compliance. If you are this soldiers supervisor, I would speak with the commander to find out why he/she is requiring the soldier in question to make up the BA. If she is a TPU, then it's just more money in the soldiers pocket.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 5:51 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 17:51:08 -0400

When I was with First Army at Ft Bragg in 2010 I was an activated reservist and when the unit that drilled in our building came for drill we were made to be there all weekend...makes for a long 13 days until a day off.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:15 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:15:40 -0400

You do not have to make it up but you are allowed to do so if you want to

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 2:44 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 02:44:49 -0400

I am pretty sure you can make it up. You can't be on orders (travel day to your school) then show up at drill, sign in and double dip for the day.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2016 3:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:48:02 -0500

There is just no WAY I would RST a BA if I was on orders during the original BA. Someone is not looking out for the soldier here.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2017 12:40 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 May 2017 00:40:45 -0400

It isn't required, it's at the commander discretion or should be. The soldier will still have a good year in regards to they're days.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2018 1:58 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jun 2018 01:58:42 -0400

Chief, I have a SPC in my squad going to school for a second MOS and in a few months he'll be going to BLC. We also have an E6 in our platoon going to WOC school. They're both excused from BA because they're on orders. During company formation the PSG (and other PSGs with similar situations) report them differently. Rather than reporting them "out of ranks" or "U," they're reported as "on orders." In my irrelevant opinion, it doesn't make sense for them to have her make up time on orders, she's already doing something for the Army. I'm sure you've had a lot of other answers already, and I'm sure someone's pointed out a regulation, just thought I'd share my limited experience.

As far as her CoC not giving a hoot about her civilian job, while difficult on the soldier, that's what we signed up for. It's the soldier's responsibility to make arrangements months in advance. I've had to make arrangements with employers and professors. We're soldiers first.