Using RallyPoint for the promotion board to judge written communication?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 07:50:37 -0400

After reading through, and responding to some of these threads, I have noticed that there is a large number of NCOs who do not know how to write. Based on their inability to write, I assume that they do not know how to speak or communicate. How do you think this would affect promotions, if accounted for, and what do we do to fix it? There is nothing worse than an uneducated NCO.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Apr 7 at 2016 7:59 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 07:59:13 -0400

I am not getting a referral bonus for this plug, but I highly recommend grammarly.com to anyone with grammar issues. For myself, it took papers that I was getting butchered on and assisted me into pulling a solid A. Over time you will also learn the common mistakes you are making. If you catch it on sale it runs in the low $100 range for a year. I am about to start my masters and I know I'll be using it again.
It may be because I am from the rural south, but grammar is something I have always had issues with. Your heart can be in the right place, but if your grammar sucks you are not able to properly convey your thoughts or take care of your subordinates on administrative tasks.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:00:32 -0400

It is really difficult to be an effective leader when you cannot communicate effectively. I have found, in my own experience, that the only way to get better at a task is to do it. Having a good mentor that is strong in the area you lack and can coach you will help. Also, one of tue best ways to expand your vocabulary and writting ability is to read, and read often.
I think this would positively impact promotions in the way that we will see more effective leaders moving up through the ranks, this is assuming that they are competent in their abilities as a Soldier.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Apr 7 at 2016 8:06 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:06:00 -0400

On a related not I've seen it over and over again. The difference between a rating chain that knows how to write and one that doesn't cannot be overstated. This has a huge impact on awards, evaluations, and our careers.

Response by SSG Calvin Birmingham made Apr 7 at 2016 8:07 AM

SSG Calvin Birmingham — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:07:46 -0400

A true leader has the ability to speak to both his/her leaders and subordinates effectively.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:09 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:09:53 -0400

I agree with the importance of proper writing skills. However, I would never judge someone's communication skills by evaluating posts on a social networking website. I, for one, refuse to put the time and effort into writing a response that I would an official document. Though this is a pseudo-professional website, it is not an official channel and does not require the same level of scrutiny.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:15 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:15:31 -0400

I couldn't agree more! My Senior Leaders Course contained a lot of questions which required a paragraph style response with a grading rubric for each question. Now, granted, my MOS deals specifically with the ability to use words effectively, but I believe this should be integrated across all forms of NCOES.

The S1net just sent out an info sheet on the new NCOER and EES. They've turned back 51% of NCOERs that can't be uploaded into iPerms due to errors. 51%! That's a hit on our Corps like I've never seen before.

Response by SGT Jason Jones made Apr 7 at 2016 8:18 AM

SGT Jason Jones — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:18:39 -0400

Purdue University offers a FREE resource for grammar, writing, and reference styles: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/

In my experience on RP, I'm guessing that at least some of the errors we see can be attributed to the fact that many users compose their posts on "smart phones" and suffer from the limitations of that entry method--automatic spelling correction and word substitution.

Purdue OWL

The Online Writing Lab (OWL) at Purdue University houses writing resources and instructional material, and we provide these as a free service of the Writing Lab at Purdue. Students, members of the community, and users worldwide will find information to assist with many writing projects.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:21 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:21:07 -0400

Great point--NCOs need to be able to communicate. Grammar isn't really an important concept in the Army--there are many, many officers who are unable to communicate effectively in written products.

I don't think its fair to suggest that someone who can't write can't communicate effectively verbally. There are plenty of folks in the world who are illiterate but can speak and communicate effectively.
How to fix this? Raise entry standards?

Response by SSG(P) Paul VanHorn made Apr 7 at 2016 8:25 AM

SSG(P) Paul VanHorn — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:25:36 -0400

With today's modern "volunteer" Army, many / most volunteers are not "cream of the crop" educated people. They are the ones who cannot get a job elsewhere, barely graduated high school in a system where schools pass everyone, they come without achievement in education and participation trophies... basically that are unprepared for life. They are from a world of "fair" rather than work and achievement. Notice I said "many" not all...

Response by SGT William Howell made Apr 7 at 2016 8:35 AM

SGT William Howell — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:35:41 -0400

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member I agree to a point, but not knowing how to write and not knowing how to communicate are 2 different things.

I am one shitty writer. My spelling is atrocious (I had to have auto correct just fix that word), I have no clue where anything goes as far as punctuation, and I am the king of the run on sentence. Yet, if I need to send a email with a plan of action on it, I can do it, and do it well. I just have to look it over 2 or 3 times before I send it.

I have had officers and NCOs that lack that skills to write and I have had to correct thier work so that they did not look like a high functioning retard. These guys were great leaders they just could not write.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:53 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:53:08 -0400

Young people today write the same way they text. I look at HUNDREDS of counseling packets....We are horrible at writing. Many of our young officers have issues as well.

Response by SGT J M Porters made Apr 7 at 2016 8:55 AM

SGT J M Porters — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:55:09 -0400

That is so true. I would be the first one to say my grammar is not the best. Here is a little link that can help. And I am not selling nor do I own stock in the company.... http://gram.ly/h_xk

Grammarly is another tool that helps us complete our mission. Never be to proud to ask for help. An old man shared this with me while I was working at IBM. "You never succeed on your own." Its always with the help of others.

Grammarly | Instant Grammar Check - Plagiarism Checker - Online Proofreader

Check your grammar right from your browser or Microsoft Office. Improve your writing in emails, documents, social media posts, messages, and more.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 9:17 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 09:17:59 -0400

....

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Apr 7 at 2016 9:23 AM

SSG Ed Mikus — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 09:23:03 -0400

how do you feel about requiring a written paper for senior promotion boards and possibly having a separate panel grade them purely for writing level?

Something that you have to go tot he education center and write with a proctor, you have up to 4 hours or so to write on a basic knowledge topic.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Apr 7 at 2016 10:00 AM

CSM Michael Chavaree — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:00:25 -0400

If this is a problem, how do we educate them and fill that void? You can't or shouldn't hold folks accountable for something you dont actually teach or facilitate... Imagine a PT test and Rifle qualification when you were never given the tools to excel.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Apr 7 at 2016 10:29 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:29:13 -0400

I found that for years in the military and in my civilian career after retiring from the Navy. As a hiring manager, that was one of the primary concerns, the ability to communicate, written and orally. Unless you are working in a cave as a technician that doesn't meet with fellow co-workers or the public, you are on point. The only exception is the education that has not taken. For example, I was pressed into hiring an individuals with HR validated double PHDs. Ed and Psychology. He had to request an extension of his benefits and could not write a request that would have been comprehensible to anyone approving the request. My secretary finally wrote it for him, a HS Graduate. His speaking skills were lacking and his ability to teach in my training center terrible, up to the point he left due to pressure to improve.

Response by CPO Byron Sargent made Apr 7 at 2016 10:29 AM

CPO Byron Sargent — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:29:43 -0400

SSG Jodon, I would agree if it wasn't for one problem. I believe that "Rally Point" would see a significant decline in responses to original posts. Many times people respond to a post because it has hit upon a nerve that has lain bare for a long time. At this point they tend to grab the keyboard and type until their fingers are raw and are not really interested in a missed comma or a question ended with a period. Using "Rally Point" for this purpose would deprive us of seeing exactly what our Soldiers, Sailors, Airman, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen are thinking out there. If they being graded we might never see what they are actually thinking.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 7 at 2016 11:01 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:01:05 -0400

Poor writing starts out with what the kids don't get at school, i.e. grammar and classes like history where they have to write essays. I've also seen the crap teachers accept because it's easier to pass them along vs. pulling their parents in and demanding they actually, God forbid, take an active interest in their kid's education. So connecting the dots on writing skills and success is difficult to do. If the service doesn't realize a writing class is as important as a leadership class, hence improvement in both is mandatory, then the blinding flash of the obvious is being missed.

BTW the precepts on every promotion board specifies what will be considered from what sources. Therefore, if a board member uses anything else, they violated their board oath.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Apr 7 at 2016 11:03 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:03:00 -0400

You can't base your evaluation on what you see on social media, as the rules for grammar aren't the same. Also, the expectations for junior ranking enlisted personnel aren't near the same as for SNCO's. That said, you could give them some kind of written assignment [such as writing an award recommendation for someone junior to them] that would allow you to see if what you saw on social media is indicative of their abilities in an official capacity. It also would help you document, if you keep the papers they submitted in your file.

However, before you hammer them, you should make an attempt to identify their shortcoming with them and give them a chance to improve themselves. If, despite all your best efforts to help them improve their communication skills, they fail to show any progress, you could always add a blurb like this on their narrative: "This NCO's ability to lead is hampered only by [his/her] inability to read, speak or write." That should tell the promotion board all they need to know. But if you do go that route, you had better have your grammar correct or you will look just as foolish, and it will negatively impact your reporting senior's perception of you! What goes around, comes around.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 11:12 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:12:50 -0400

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member, I would like to point out that there are a great many very eloquent and well-educated people that simply do not write well. They can speak effectively, and eloquently describe their point and hold a productive discussion with you, but if you ask them to write out their argument, they will be unable to do so with the same level of panache and ardent poignance. Some of our most well-respected speakers have this issue. It is not a lack of education, necessarily. It can be caused by a great many things such as learning disabilities (Dyslexia, ADHD, ADD, IDD etc.) To couple this, a great many of today's NCOs are from my generation which, let's call a spade a spade here, is not particularly well-known for their literary capabilities. Most of my generation spent their time on electronic devices, rather than in books or writing their own words. The glamour of the written word is wasted on so many in this day and age and the ability to communicate through writing has slowly diminished over the last twenty years or so.

Now, to caveat this, I do see your point. For those NCOs who consistently show a lack of education, drive, and motivation to better themselves and improve as a communicator, writer, and leader are absolutely subpar. That lack of perseverance and persistence is not an acceptable feature to the men and women that are supposed to be leading soldiers into combat. You don't improve your unit or your subordinates that way. To quote Clint Eastwood from Heartbreak Ridge: "Ya just get dead."

I hope that this response was helpful and gave you a different perspective. Feedback is always welcomed!

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 7 at 2016 11:47 AM

SFC Randy Purham — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:47:21 -0400

That would be interesting to implement. I wonder what metrics would be utilized? How can anyone accurately gauge the level of education one has to determine their worth to be promoted? I remember several years back when a bunch of Senior NCOs were demoted, removed from service, etc for falsifying their education records by purchasing their degrees from some school. Communication is key in expressing yourself, articulating a mission objective, etc. But to judge leadership capability through social media would be hard to do. Some people actually carry a pseudo-psychosis when on social media, but be perfectly normal in person. Hence why we have keyboard rangers and warriors. Now, if we were to implement an essay for the promotion board for the panel to review - with a named topic - that could be a feasible way to determine the level of fidelity in their communication skills.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made Apr 7 at 2016 12:42 PM

1LT A. Uribe — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:42:22 -0400

I learned a long time ago that you are judged in three different categories.
1. Physical communication
2. Verbal communication
3. Written communication

Response by SSG James Elmore made Apr 7 at 2016 12:55 PM

SSG James Elmore — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:55:11 -0400

To be honest I find this kind of offensive, just because I'm not good at grammar doesn't mean I can't speak or communicate well.

Response by SGT David Emme made Apr 7 at 2016 2:13 PM

SGT David Emme — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:13:18 -0400

Because I have never made it to the next promotion level due to being reired because of wounds received in combat...well there is the whole thing about professional communications such as counseling junior members with counseling statements and know in my NCO channel this was looked at by my SR NCO's from time to time on how we counseled our soldiers. Of course at the end of the day it is about the ability to lead and mission accomplishment.

Response by PO2 Randall Knight made Apr 7 at 2016 2:17 PM

PO2 Randall Knight — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:17:40 -0400

I agree, I have had many senior NCO's and Staff NCO's that use the non existent : "regardless to say" .... I cringe every time I hear it.

Response by SSG(P) Ell Pizarek made Apr 7 at 2016 4:12 PM

SSG(P) Ell Pizarek — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 16:12:41 -0400

I will agree that writing is one area that could be viewed, I would recommend the review of completed NCOERs or even require a essay on why you should be promoted. Sadly I don't think this would matter. I retired as an E6 and was #1 on the promotion list. When the SGM ask me to reconsider my retirement, I told him that I understood the delay in promotion due to promotion freezes due to draw downs, but after seeing others selected 6 months after getting a DUI and smashing up a vehicle in a combat zone, it just wasn't worth it. There is to much back scratching involved with the selection process. I retired and tripled my income.

Response by SSG Eric Eck made Apr 7 at 2016 5:55 PM

SSG Eric Eck — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:55:37 -0400

You remind me of a former platoon sergeant of mine, he believed his education made him more intelligent than the rest of us as well. Your last statement is inaccurate, one who judges others by their short comings is worse.

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Apr 7 at 2016 6:16 PM

SrA Paul Pfeil — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:16:56 -0400

Great idea, check each person's cyber security and make sure they are behaving themselves on open forum, to include facebook. Though don't limit it to Nco's it should be for all, including officers.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 7 at 2016 8:07 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 20:07:47 -0400

Uneducated and inability to communicate are two separate issues.

Junior service members professional military education is generally focused on skill sets other than technical communication. They are taught to become masters of their field or specialty. They are usually not taught to become technical writers. When you account for the fact that most junior enlisted have a high school education as opposed to college education, the writing skills are about what would be expected, high school level and atrophied over the last 3-4 years.

Writing is a skill like any other. Use it or lose it. Those in the CS or CSS arenas use it daily. We type documents and we become very proficient at conveying our thoughts via the written medium. Those in the CA fields tend towards the verbal because that is their primary method of communication.

This isn't an education issue. It's a usage one. As we progress through the ranks, and our need increases, however, we get better by necessity. PSGs end up having to write more reports, therefore they are forced to get better. But a PSG with one year behind the computer is still going to be behind a specialist with 3.

Because RP is a text based venue, it gives a false perception of communication capabilities. Both positive and negative.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 8:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 20:23:51 -0400

Absolutely not. If you want to incorporate anything into a promotion board have them fill out a memorandum for record with numerous thru lines. Base it off of AR 25-50

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 9:02 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:02:45 -0400

To touch on both statements going on.

I do think people can communicate well verbally but lack in the written area. However, I dont think that is an acceptable answer given we are talking about NCOs. NCOs are working to be SNCOs or higher. On this level most of the work is conducted via writing. Whether completing some type of written instruction or email correspondence, you want to ensure you don't sound like a fool.

On the social media note. Yes, it is just social media but social media has become a big part of our lives. Some employers look for it and will even base their employment decisions on it. No one is saying write scholar essays when posting but you should want to sound educated. At the end of the day you are leaving your footprint on the internet.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 7 at 2016 9:34 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:34:48 -0400

There are PLENTY of things worse than uneducated NCOs...this is simply a personal pet peeve; like when people judge others through 'social media speak'.

RallyPoint, like any other social media platform, does not require writing/articulation skills...no one is graded (until know).

Just because members write certain ways, doesn't mean that can't speak/communicate effectively.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 10:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 22:35:46 -0400

I have noticed this as well, however I do not nor will I ever judge the way someone writes in order to conclude that they have issues communicating verbally. In addition to my friends observance though, I feel that if you're an NCO or Commission Officer who is having trouble with writing, you are a leader. What I mean in this sense is that you should have the ability to fix yourself while seeking guidance along the way.

Response by SSgt Koree Copeland made Apr 8 at 2016 2:12 AM

SSgt Koree Copeland — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 02:12:58 -0400

This is a social media outlet, nothing more. Under no circumstance should it be held against someone for boards. Although great grammar is applaudable, this is not an avenue for politics. Which is what you're condoning. That as a whole is unacceptable.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 8 at 2016 3:50 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:50:19 -0400

I don't know about everyone else but I had to learn the Army writing style brief and concise, and the NCOER bullets I was used to, gave you about 120 characters on two lines max to make a statement with impact. Grammar be dammed Soldiers aren't writing term papers. Unless someone's on staff or a senior NCO they really don't need to be English professors. I don't participate in RP to evaluate a persons writing skills. I'm more interested in the ideas and concepts for this forum. I could care less if someone misspelled cat as long as I can tell what they are talking about.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2016 2:39 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Apr 2016 02:39:17 -0400

I think you are making broad assumptions based on little evidence. This is social media. Abbreviations and a form of shorthand are common. This "texting" shorthand coupled with unnoticed autocorrect errors and the culture surrounding social media is full of errors one would not commit in a more formal setting. There are ignorant NCOS, but your statement doesn't support your claim

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 5:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 05:22:07 -0400

Playing Devil's Advocate, I'd say that if we did that, we'd also have to screen their social media footprint as a whole -and judge how they represent the military.

As for judging their writing off of a blog, I'd vote no ...but I DO agree that more emphasis should be placed on written communication as well as honest evaluations regarding their ability to communicate in other ways. Personally, I cringe whenever I see a NCO (or Soldier, in general) that can't spell his way out of a Kindergarten classroom ...but with that, I've seen Leaders that have horrible grammar and spelling but were the epitome of everything rad that we have to offer.

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Apr 20 at 2016 6:02 PM

SSG Stephen Arnold — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:02:45 -0400

My problem with using a site such as this one is that sometimes the post is entered before a mistake is noticed. The ability to edit the post is limited. When I write professionally, I have ample opportunity to proofread and edit. Sometimes I'm posting from my phone, and it routinely changes what I typed into gibberish or duplicated words or words I never typed.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Apr 30 at 2016 2:04 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:04:26 -0400

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member - If the rated NCO's writing skills were THAT bad, I'm sure they'd rate a bullet point on his/her NCOER. Now, how picky do you want to get? The general Army standard is to write something that's understood in a single rapid reading. While proper grammar, spelling and punctuation are nice, they're aren't necessary. Gotta be careful to not let the tail wag the dog.