Warrant Officer Rating Scheme

2014-04-11T00:59:27-04:00

So yesterday we were sitting through probably the 5th brief I've had lately on the new OER system when a question occurred to me and another fellow warrant.  It was brought up in the discussion that under the new regulation that all Majors must be senior rated by a COL (O6) or higher.  That got us thinking that as CW3s (also field grades) what is the minimum senior rater requirement?  We pulled up the new reg and was a little surprised to see that all warrants (WO1-CW5 only have a senior rater requirement of MAJ).  I was also even more shocked to discover that according to the regulation, a 2LT could actually rate a CW5.<div><br></div><div>Thoughts?</div>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2014 1:28 AM

2014-04-11T01:28:54-04:00

Chief,

I don't know if they didn't just think this through when they typed it but in every single unit I have worked in with warrants they are not rated this way. In my last unit in my S6 shop when my CW2 made the 3 list he was immediately rated by the BN XO and SR by the BN CDR taking me as a CPT out of the rating scheme. This will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis to ensure the proper rating scheme is followed.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Apr 11 at 2014 1:35 AM

2014-04-11T01:35:04-04:00

Wait, What???? You thought you were a "real" officer? No, No, No Pinocchio.<br>

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-04-11T14:57:01-04:00

Well Brother, such is life with the rank structure of the US Army.  Now I know I am a fairly new CW3 but I would think this question might be answered by the BN/BD commander.   I think this all stems from the reg covering all Warrants, techs and aviators.  You know as well as I do that a lot of aviators, as W2s have very little tested leadership ability, due to being in school, former enlisted excluded of course.  Mainly talking about this high school to flight school guys.  <div><br></div><div>I am hoping that the new Army Staff Chief Warrant Officer (or whatever it is called) might have some input and we might see a change come down the pipe.<br><div><br></div><div>Starting with the bad news, not so bright commander might think he could have a junior grade officer (captain and down) rate a W3 because he can and never ask, "does that make sense?"  </div><div><br></div><div>Good news, most Bn and Bde level commanders, at least that I have worked for, would ever allow this to happen.  They know the minute they pull something like that the Warrant is looking for a new job.  At least a tech would be.  Talk to your boss and see what he thinks.</div></div>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-04-12T17:09:44-04:00

I thought a 2LT out ranks a CW5? (lol)<div>While I understand Senior Warrants (CW4-CW5) receiving field grade housing and protocol I can't say I consider any warrant officer a field grade? It's like NCOs, you have junior and senior NCOs, then you have junior and senior warrant officers. I think the Army did a good thing by affording senior warrants certain benefits, but let's not make it more than it is. A CSM gets certain protocol levels due to their advanced rank but they by no means carry equivalency to any officer grade. Geneva category on the ID card? III, just like a CGO. We can't mix an mingle the ranks gentlemen. UCMJ authority of a warrant in command? Regardless of rank it's company grade. I will always afford a senior warrant their due respect but it is hard for me to swallow that they are the same as a LTC or COL let alone a General Officer. I've heard the whole "I have NCO experience." We all know that being a warrant is different than being an NCO. I have always said their should be a Warrant officer OER. Why rate a warrant in the same competencies as a commissioned officers? The roles and jobs are completely different. I have a CW2 in my career course, most of the content is completely irrelevant to him and his duties as a vet food inspector. </div><div><br></div><div>When did we start considering CW3 as senior warrants? Don't they only have 6 years warrant service and 4 years commissioned service? Sounds like a mid-grade Captain to me? </div>

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-04-14T15:03:08-04:00

Troy,<div><br></div><div>On the aviation side of the house, a CW3 is routinely rated by an LT.  This is not a career killer, as aviators work at the platoon level until they are mid-grade CW3s.  I do agree that there is no reason that an LT should rate a CW5, and it should not be allowed in the regs.  </div><div><br></div><div>The part that we will need to watch is the rater profile.  The rater, by reg should be the immediate supervisor, but what will that profile look like if there is only one Warrant Officer being rated by that rater?</div><div><br></div><div>I would also caution against using the term "field grade" until (if) it shows up in the regulations. (AR 600-20)</div>

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 2:35 AM

2014-04-15T02:35:33-04:00

Troy,<div><br></div><div>At a minimum, I believe CW3s and above should be rated by a MAJ and senior rated by a LTC. A company grade officer should not be rating CW3s and above. </div><div><br></div><div>DA Form 67-10-2: Part IV, block d.2: Narrative comments—which demonstrate performance regarding field grade attributes and competencies in the rated officer’s current duty position.</div><div><br></div><div>1) How can a Company Grade Plate Officer properly assess the performance regarding field grade attributes of a Field Grade Plate Officer if they are not field grades? How is that possible? </div><div><br></div><div>V/r</div><div>TJ</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Apr 16 at 2014 9:47 PM

2014-04-16T21:47:43-04:00

CW4 and CW5s typically raise enough hell when a LT rates them or even a Captain at times to get what they think is right. Frankly it doesn't bother me, but the same can be said of senior raters where here all CW5s are senior rated by the CG or the "O". When I was a WO1, CW4 "wild" Bill Howell came to Honduras to be given a LT as his rater. I heard more colorful expletives and navy lingo than I had ever known as he was previously assigned as the 101 CGs pilot. Well he belly ached enough to get a CPT.

On another note I filled out the new support form today, wow!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2014 8:50 AM

2014-05-22T08:50:18-04:00

Since becoming a warrant officer, I was rated by a MAJ or LTC and senior rated by a LTC or COL as a WO1. My last OER in this unit will have me rated by a LTC and senior rated by a COL.

In my new unit (I report 8 June), the best I can hope for without going outside the unit is to be rated by a CPT and senior rated by a MAJ. Yeah, it's a bit of a step down, but I got lucky (so to speak).

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Jun 19 at 2014 12:48 PM

2014-06-19T12:48:35-04:00

Seems like another area which has been overlooked. neglected and now obsolete. A W5 making as much or more $$$ as an O5 being rating by an O1. Sounds like a broken system. Would things change if they incorporated our pay scale into the standard O1-O10 pay scale? Scary thought for them.

I'm happy to say (as a W2/3) I've never been rated by anything less than an O5, as it should be.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2014 10:23 PM

2014-07-12T22:23:47-04:00

I don't get hung up on who my rater is. I've had CPT's, MAJ's and CW4's for my raters in the past. Most of the time I did not have a Shop Officer so my Bn XO was my rater. As long as you do your job well it shouldn't matter who your rater is. If I'm rated by a LT the only issue will be having to use an intermediate rater to get to a MAJ or above for a Sr. Rater unless the LT's rater is already a MAJ. That's not that big of a deal though, just more steps that have to be completed to finish my OER. I'm appreciative of the perks that are afforded to me as a CW3, but if I really wanted to be a Field Grade Officer I would have gone to OCS instead of WOCS.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2015 7:54 PM

2015-10-26T19:54:53-04:00

Troy, I had a deeply divided conversation with the Brigade last year over this exact topic. The Brigade S1 was in vehement disagreement that my raters, rater should be my senior rater. This was mainly due to the fact that the Brigade Commander would have been just that. I believe that the point of conflict was the as a member of the special staff in the ARSOF community we report directly to the BDE CDR and not the S3, where as the S1 reports to the XO/DCO. Because of this command relationship it meant the commander would be my rater’s rater and the CoS at 1st SFC would be my rater’s senior rater. The point being that the S1 is rated by the BDE XO/DCO and senior rated by the BDE CDR. For her it was perceived that she would not be in the same rating pool as my MAJ and presented an unfair advantage when it came promotion board time. The whole point of this is that it forced me into the regulation where it only addressed the senior rater min grade requirement. I would expect though with all the updates continuously being pushed there should be an addendum to the regulation in the pipeline as was the case with the ASU service cap and the other guidance’s coming out.

Response by CW2 Christopher Esparza made Nov 5 at 2015 5:14 PM

2015-11-05T17:14:07-05:00

Cheer up buttercup, a field grade Warrant. LOL next you'll think you have a real commission.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2017 2:39 PM

2017-04-10T14:39:03-04:00

Question: Is a CW3 consider a company or field grade officer? Or neither one?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2017 4:25 PM

2017-04-17T16:25:06-04:00

Seriously? That is crazy.

Response by SSG Matthew Koehler made Apr 17 at 2017 4:28 PM

2017-04-17T16:28:06-04:00

Hmmm? Who grades their PT tests?

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Apr 18 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-04-18T16:11:42-04:00

Two questions:

Do MTO&Es or equivent call for a spefic rank of Warrant Officer? In the 80s and 90s I recall that they did not. A Battalion Maint. Cheif could be a WO1-WO4/5 depending on who was in the pipeline. No matter the rank the worked for the BMO.

Question 2: Soulf we get rid of Warrants and use LImited Duty Officers? Started doing this in the Medical Corps with PAs.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2018 1:04 PM

2018-05-01T13:04:39-04:00

It’s fucked up if u ask me. In what world doesn’t experience not over do a degree. Think about that only in the military do they say if u go to math class and science class u are better than the people who put their time in.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2018 2:21 PM

2018-05-01T14:21:48-04:00

If you’re discussing this about the Army Warrant Officers rank then I have just this to say. All Warrant and Commission Officers pay grade/rank are senior to all enlisted pay grade/rank. All Commission Officers pay grade/rank to include Limited Duty Officers (LDO), are Seniors to everyone else. It shouldn’t matter what branch of military service you are in by DOPMA regulations.

Response by PO3 Scot Fahey made May 1 at 2018 5:25 PM

2018-05-01T17:25:52-04:00

Been following the US Navy? Asking Congress to make Push Button (Instant) E-7 Chiefs, and 0-6 Navy Captains, to recruit CYBER experts into service

Response by COL Jerry C. made May 1 at 2018 6:03 PM

2018-05-01T18:03:52-04:00

I know this offends the sensibility of almost every Warrant, but the fact remains WO are still subordinate to a 2nd LT in the formal structure. Admittedly it would be a poor choice to have a 2nd LT rate a CW3 and higher but the fact remains. I think someone else wrote "CW4 and CW5s typically raise enough hell when a LT rates them or even a Captain at times to get what they think is right. " Is indicative of the overall Warrant mindset "[until] get what they think is right.

Response by SSG Kenny Gomillion made May 1 at 2018 9:17 PM

2018-05-01T21:17:55-04:00

I look at experience and time in service requirements, when it takes at minimum around what 6 years usually more to become CW5 depending on availability or necessity and a pimple face inexperienced kid gets a BS in dump truck driving school and has the right to rate a CW5. I think I've made it clear experience should be respected

Response by Cpl David Burke made May 2 at 2018 7:39 AM

2018-05-02T07:39:02-04:00

I have always respected the Warrant Officer rate. The worst dressing down was from a W-1 in the USMC. Ranks are ranks.

Response by SPC Jonathan Jenkins made May 2 at 2018 9:21 AM

2018-05-02T09:21:51-04:00

Or y'all could quit shamming and actually join the Army?

Response by Lara Cesar made May 2 at 2018 9:29 AM

2018-05-02T09:29:14-04:00

You guys are pulling my leg. A 2LT rating a CW5/ even CW2.
A PFC rating a E6. ??? Unfortunately today E-5/ E-6 those ranks are giving by learn how to answer question. No backbone of leadership or mentorship. That’s a different topic.

Response by SFC Gary Guyer made May 2 at 2018 11:46 AM

2018-05-02T11:46:33-04:00

I think that a CW5 should be rated by a Col , A CW4 by a LtCol and the rest by a Major. A 2LT does not have the experience nor the knowledge to rate a Warrant Officer. A Warrant Officer is specialized in his/her field and most Company Grade Officers are no where near that Standard.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made May 2 at 2018 12:36 PM

2018-05-02T12:36:31-04:00

It all depends on the MTOE / TDA. As I remember many slots require a WO and don’t state what pay grade. It’s the same argument when we had enlisted Specialists in higher pay grades, all NCOs put ranked them.

Response by PO1 Daniel Brock made May 2 at 2018 1:06 PM

2018-05-02T13:06:56-04:00

Apparently CWO's are much different in the USA than they are in USN. CWO's in the USN are required to have a minimum of 12 years service and be at least E-7. As a result, Navy CWO's relieve an amazing amount of respect. On paper, they rank below an O-1, but reality is much different.

Response by 1SG Mark Reed made May 2 at 2018 1:45 PM

2018-05-02T13:45:20-04:00

A CW3-CW5 merits rating of a field grade officer. 2LT's shouldn't be rating anyone, they don't have the experience nor knowledge to rate any rank

Response by SFC Harold Schaeffer made May 2 at 2018 2:06 PM

2018-05-02T14:06:15-04:00

Dumb de dumb dumb.

Response by CPO Michael Lane made May 2 at 2018 5:10 PM

2018-05-02T17:10:33-04:00

For us Navy Folks, we select our Warrants from our CPO community unlike the rest of the branches. For me when I put in my package for CWO I was asked at my Board why I did not put in for LDO. My answer to the CDR chairing the Board was, "So I could keep my first name, CHIEF!" "GO NAVY, BEAT Army"

Response by 1SG Raymond Woothtakewahbitty made May 2 at 2018 6:13 PM

2018-05-02T18:13:30-04:00

Well at least you still get to walk on the grass and put your hands in your pockets

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 7:11 PM

2018-05-02T19:11:35-04:00

Lol who cares, I've had many lt's and captains rate me. Here's what you do fellas, write your own ncoer and oer and give it to them. 99% of the time they won't even touch it. Take charge and control of your career don't let an inexperienced person write your future just because he out ranks you. If you were fair, honest and worked hard and wrote what you did, they will sign it and move on.

Response by SFC John Patterson made May 2 at 2018 7:21 PM

2018-05-02T19:21:17-04:00

Rate a WO? How, you can never find the damn ninjas!

Response by CW3 Robert Vaughan made May 2 at 2018 8:06 PM

2018-05-02T20:06:38-04:00

I am and was always a writer. Because of that I often wrote the OERs for my COs (including my own). And because of that I, as a CW3 rated a lot of commissioned officers.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 8:39 PM

2018-05-02T20:39:26-04:00

What's the purpose of this thread? At the end of the day walking warrants are advisors to the commander at whatever level they operate. That commander should be in my rating chain, plain and simple. Who cares what you call me because calling me a Warrant Officer is more than enough. As warrants it's our job to bring up those LTs and not let them look are up in front of the commander. If your LTs aren't respecting you as a Warrant it sounds like it's a you problem.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-05-02T20:50:51-04:00

On a nicer note, warrant officers in my opinion are like SENIOR SNCO. Those with such a high technical knowledge of their trade that they commission for their specific rating. That being said. According to the ranking structure, it goes E1-E9, then W1-CWO5, O1-O10. Enlisted follow orders of warrants and officers. Warrants obey orders of officers.

Response by COL Tom Dials made May 2 at 2018 9:18 PM

2018-05-02T21:18:28-04:00

Been out of the business for a while now but AV Warrants are beginning to sound like Air Force peeps - ‘don’t like your rarer/SR, find another one’. My dad was a QM CW4, he’d have been insulted to be called a ‘field grade warrant’, he thought he was better than that (and was most certainly correct in his field!).

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 9:31 PM

2018-05-02T21:31:45-04:00

No, I get rated by an O4. We are too busy molding the 01-03's.

Response by CW4 Bernie Busby made May 2 at 2018 10:23 PM

2018-05-02T22:23:57-04:00

Let it be.

Response by CW4 Bernie Busby made May 2 at 2018 10:28 PM

2018-05-02T22:28:02-04:00

The CW3, 4, or 5 should be rated by his/her superior. It is determined by the assignment. I worked for a flag officer who provided input to my O-5 officer. Performance reporting is what matters.

Response by MSG Douglas Tolliver made May 2 at 2018 11:25 PM

2018-05-02T23:25:28-04:00

Many of the arguments that are made here regarding the ratings game could also be applied to senior non-commissioned officers. As I'm retired and I no longer have a dog in the fight I shall feel free to express my opinion. I feel that warrant officers in the grades of WO1 and CW2 should be rated by a Captain or above. CW3 and CW4 should be rated by MAJ or above and a CW5 should be rated by a COL at a minimum.

Response by WO1 Richard Stephens made May 2 at 2018 11:56 PM

2018-05-02T23:56:51-04:00

I am a W01 love the rank and respect. Warrant Officers are keepers of the knowledge.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 2:02 AM

2018-05-03T02:02:42-04:00

As a WG-10 ART, I wish that the Air Force would bring back warrant officers. I am a reservist who wears E6 rank while doing my civilian job in civilian status. We have WL-10s and WS-9s and WS-11s wearing E7 rank while in civilian status working with active duty and it confuses the hell out of them. One day a WL-10 wearing master sergeant was questioned by some young folks who didn’t understand his seniority and I had to pull up the equivalence chart to show them that his actual civilian rank put him at officer grade. We are not in enlisted status, we are appointed. Our civilian job is tied to our reserve rank and slot. We are technical experts in our field, and have ultimate authority on whether the plane flies or not. It would make it so much simpler just to make us all warrants.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 3:46 AM

2018-05-03T03:46:34-04:00

No LT shouls be permitted to rate a CWO.

Response by CPT William Goodwin made May 3 at 2018 6:32 AM

2018-05-03T06:32:21-04:00

Just because it is written in the regulations that way doesn’t mean you will experience it. The only time I could think of where a warrant could be by a 2LT is in aviation, which are usually 1LTs by the time they are in a position to rate, or in tradoc maybe. Even then that would be rare. Outside of that there’s maintenance, which is most likely. Warrants are battalion level assets, so they should be rated as such according to the section they’re in.

Response by SSG Erik McKinster made May 3 at 2018 6:38 AM

2018-05-03T06:38:07-04:00

My thought is, that's the most ridiculous bill shit I've heard on a while.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 7:31 AM

2018-05-03T07:31:32-04:00

I'm AF an never worked a joint assignment but see great potential as a maintainer for warrant officers. The rating scheme seems like a slap in the face.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 8:12 AM

2018-05-03T08:12:41-04:00

How can a 2LT rate anyone when it’s a well known fact that a 2LT can’t find their ass with two hands?

Response by CW5 Dennis Stewart made May 3 at 2018 8:13 AM

2018-05-03T08:13:41-04:00

My rater as a CW5 was an O5 or O6 because I worked directly for him. Never knew anything else

Response by Maj Sean Barnes made May 3 at 2018 8:16 AM

2018-05-03T08:16:50-04:00

Last I read a warrant officer is still enlisted...... when I went through OCS there was a w3 that was going through with us....

Response by Maj Shawn Cape made May 3 at 2018 8:45 AM

2018-05-03T08:45:11-04:00

Simple answer — Who salutes who first? In the army, particularly in aviation, they make enlisted into aviators (WO1+) because they (the army brass) feel officers are too valuable to fly combat missions. Hence, when an aviation officer makes O3 they’re pretty much confined to office duties and the occasional check flight in a Kiowa. They’re basically flying sergeants.

In the Marine Corps a WO is a completely different thing. First, to even qualify to become one the Marine has to be a staff sergeant (E6), which means he or she has been in for a while. If approved there is a series of tests to prove they’re worth the rank. In the Corps a WO is an expert on a particular subject; armorer, galley, admin, etc. And having been enlisted they handle things differently. But even a WO-5 with 20+ years in has to salute a 2nd LT first and call him or her sir/ma’am.

Response by 1stSgt Roman Lash La Rue made May 3 at 2018 12:27 PM

2018-05-03T12:27:26-04:00

Bull, a 2dlt, is not qualified to rateWO's or CWO's

Response by SSG Brian Carpeneter made May 3 at 2018 1:39 PM

2018-05-03T13:39:30-04:00

If as a Warrant you feel slighted how do you think senior NCO's with 15-20 years feels when they get a 2LT who doesn't even know how to fill out the NCOER. Be happy you even get one

Response by CPO William Reid made May 3 at 2018 4:21 PM

2018-05-03T16:21:05-04:00

I THINK THAT IS QUITE BOGUS AS MOST WARRANTS ARE SENIOR IN TIME TO MOST COMMISSIONED MID-GRADE OFFICERS AND DESERVE TO BE RATED BY AT LEAST A LT COL.

Response by CWO5 Roberto Fernandez made May 3 at 2018 4:30 PM

2018-05-03T16:30:38-04:00

In reality, a CWO3 would never work for a 2ndLt. Your experience and expertise are there to advise the commanding officer. So at the minimum, your RS should be your BN XO. Further, as a senior Warrant Officer, you should demand that your RS be commensurate with your rank. There is no way that as a CWO5 I was going to have a 2ndLt report on my performance. Good luck, stand your ground.

Response by CW2 Kenneth Sanborn made May 3 at 2018 4:34 PM

2018-05-03T16:34:53-04:00

Revise the reg, butter bars shouldn't be rating warrants!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 4:51 PM

2018-05-03T16:51:51-04:00

I have all the respect in the World for our Warrant Officers! They are tough, intelligent and experts in their fields.

Response by LTC Ron Morgan made May 3 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-05-03T17:17:13-04:00

As it should be. A CW5 salutes a second lieutenant. A major is four grades above a CW5. Your senior raptor would be at most a 1st LT

Response by CW3 Eye Bobojed made May 3 at 2018 6:02 PM

2018-05-03T18:02:41-04:00

Well sports fans when I in 503d DS Co late 70s, we had about 7 warrants (WO1 thru W4) no W5 existed and included myself who worked for 2nd LTs who were the shop officer. The CO next on line and Bn Cdr did our ranking profile So please dont overrate yourselves it is what it is. Not everyone reports to a 06 or above

Response by SFC Scott Teague made May 3 at 2018 6:45 PM

2018-05-03T18:45:23-04:00

Since Warrant Officers are greatly needed and respected I seriously doubt any Command would have an LT rate one. The warrants I knew would laugh and walk out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 6:52 PM

2018-05-03T18:52:36-04:00

WTF? This is disrespectful, having a 2LT rate a CW5 is like having an E5 rate the CSM! This is ridiculous and a complete slap in the face!

Response by CW4 Jim Shelburn made May 3 at 2018 7:16 PM

2018-05-03T19:16:12-04:00

My rater varied from a 1LT to a COL. Never really worried about it. Just tried to do a good job.
CW4 Retired

Response by SFC Glenn Kozak made May 3 at 2018 7:39 PM

2018-05-03T19:39:25-04:00

I rated other SFCs when we were deployed to Bagram, Afghanistan because I was the PSG and had DOR. Two of them later were promoted to MSG.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 7:42 PM

2018-05-03T19:42:17-04:00

CW5’s are senior officers and should be treated in the same regard as an O-5. Would a CSM EVER be senior rated by an O-2? I think NOT!!

Response by SP5 Billy Anderson made May 3 at 2018 8:58 PM

2018-05-03T20:58:38-04:00

2Lt are shave tails!

Response by 1SG John Highfill made May 3 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-05-03T21:43:46-04:00

i have no problem with a Captain rating a CW1 or CW2 but 3 through 5 should be rated buy MAJ and Above

Response by SCPO Rev. Dr. Thomas Peavy made May 3 at 2018 10:03 PM

2018-05-03T22:03:06-04:00

Why I always wanted to be and stay in the Chief Petty Officer's mess. Retired as a Senior Chief Petty Officer holding an academic doctorate from a reputable state university. Never had a thought about who I was nor did I have a worry about my qualification. I was an academic "Admiral" and "The Chief" no matter the circumstance or place in which I served.

Response by CWO3 Dave Alcantara made May 3 at 2018 10:56 PM

2018-05-03T22:56:02-04:00

Damn, you Army guys worry to much about nothing.

As a W-2, I wrote my OER, it then went to the O-2 (Ltjg) I worked with. I went from there to the O-5 (Cdr) who ran the Department. As a W-3, I convinced the O-3, he really needed practice writing OER’s, for his own professional development. From there it routed to the O-5 to the O-6.

But really, in the USCG it didn’t matter to much. As long as you didn’t really mess up, you got advanced. Granted all USCG Warrants were senior enlisted, so we had a clue.

Response by SPC Scott Weber made May 3 at 2018 11:14 PM

2018-05-03T23:14:25-04:00

Sorry to become a warrant you must be E-5 so 4 years at min. Then a 2Lt only has collage time and what maybe a year military. At what grade can you get as an officer in 4 or 5 years. ? I would say an officer at 03 capt should be a rate officer for cw1 maybe cw2. Then major for a cw3 or cw4 a colonel to rate a cw5

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 11:29 PM

2018-05-03T23:29:14-04:00

All officers are senior to any warrant officer!

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made May 3 at 2018 11:34 PM

2018-05-03T23:34:15-04:00

I have no credentials to answer this question but I will suggest the following -

W1 - Rater - CW2, CW3, 2LT or higher; Senior - CW3, CW4 , CPT or higher
CW2 - Rater - CW3, CW4, MW5, 1LT or higher; Senior - CW4, CW5, CPT or higher
CW3 - Rater CW4, MW5 , CPT or higher; Senior - MW5, MAJ or higher
CW4 - Rater MW5, MAJ or higher; Senior MAJ or higher
MW5 - Rater LTC or higher; Senior - COL or higher

Bear in mind that, outside of the Aviation community, most WOs serve on battalion or higher staffs and their immediate supervisors are either WOs or at least a CPT.

Response by MAJ Lawrence Lauck made May 4 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-05-04T00:29:26-04:00

What does this picture represent, surely not a WO, that is a QM officer. Also Spence when is a cow 3 equate to a Major . A cow 3 = s a captain in pay grade. Get your facts straight.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2018 12:36 AM

2018-05-04T00:36:46-04:00

Much of this conversation confuses me to be honest. Your rater should be that person that can most effectively evaluate your performance. If that person is a 2LT you better work hard to guide that person, but it does not mean that person is incapable of rating you. I have had an Air Force Major rate me. He had never worked with an army warrant in his life. We sat down and discussed his goals and what he expected of me. Figured out what would be necessary to get a strong eval and then I guided him in writing it. You have opportunities with a junior officer or with someone learning your role in that you can mold the situation. How is that a bad thing?

Lets be honest anyways your senior rater comments are the most important thing on your eval for promotion purposes. The biggest challenge I would say with a 2LT being your rater is how much influence that person can have with your senior rater if there is a fight for ACOMs. I have also found that company commanders dont like getting skipped in the eval so I have never been rated by my platoon leader.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2018 5:58 AM

2018-05-04T05:58:14-04:00

Where can you find a CW5 billet where there are 2LTs in the formation to begin with? Frankly, the task org wont even support this eventuality (at least in the walking warrant world).
The lowest officer around in my job is the CG's aide.

Response by Maj David Kraklow made May 4 at 2018 6:03 AM

2018-05-04T06:03:04-04:00

What does it matter? If you’re a CWO5, you’ve reached the top! You’re the king! The CWO5 makes as much as a a LtCol and nobody messes with a CWO5! Who’s going to even have the balls to try?

Response by SFC Kenneth G. made May 4 at 2018 6:44 AM

2018-05-04T06:44:43-04:00

Warrant Officers were referred to as God by everyone when I was in the Army. They were a book of knowledge and someone to go to when you needed an answer. As far as I am concerned, a 2LT doesn't have the credentials to even polish the boots of a Senior NCO, and much less a Warrant Officer. A CW3 to CW5 should be rated by a Field Grade Officer if he is rated as a Field Grade Officer. Actually the CW5 rank, I believe has been changed to MW5, or it was right after I retired.

Response by CW3 Lance Owens made May 4 at 2018 10:12 AM

2018-05-04T10:12:18-04:00

We're again ASS BACKWARDS. This is especially prevalent and apparent in the MI Community. We have LT's doing a his 6 month KD, rating a Warrant Officer who does 99% of the work and is held responsible for the execution, yet the LT and the Company commander by and large "sabotage" that success by virtue of understanding so little of the process and advocating for and pushing the "easy wrong" over the "hard right" every time. When the Warrant pushes back, it is considered "Whining" when they inevitable fail after trying to do everything in their power to "Fix Stupid" and "Shine the Turd" it is the Warrants fault because he couldn't make them understand and now "You Warrants need a broadening assignment" so you can "dumb stuff down" so us "lack of professionalization in anything other than politics and Army manuals" can understand Intelligence Disciplines, Procedures and Processes in order to effectively implement our battlefield operating system. I remember when our Intelligence Officers used to professionalize in disciplines and could at least hold a conversation, now they are pretty much down to, and this includes Majors through Colonels in some cases, "I needs me some SIGINT", "What does that MOS do", "All you guys do the same thing" and "You Warrants" Not saying that all Warrants are spectacular, but the O grades and the NCO haters, who have by and large abandoned the BCT's, thrown stones and refusing to even be remotely professionalized in anything other than ARMY and POLITICS is a death sentence to any sympathy or professional empathy for anyone other than other Warrants. Had a lengthy discussion with my counterparts the other day and I'm still connected even though I'm retired, that when you have a PL, doing a 6 month KD, who checks out after 2 months and can't be troubled engage in the ACTUAL MISSION, being directed by a MICO CDR, who probably followed the same process, who is RATED by and ENGINEER LTC, because someone who followed the SAME PROCESS as the KD LT and the MICO Commander, decided that this was a "GOOD FORCE STRUCTURE" because they never did anything but "ARMY and POLITICS" and said "Rgr, Out" is a recipe for and continues to prove a disaster. I realize I've hammered on the O Grades, not all of you fit in this category and I apologize if you feel put upon. You guys need to look to your Marine brethren, their LT PL's, who are under the thumb of the Warrants at the Radio Battalions and other areas where they are forced to PROFESSIONALIZE in things other than MARINE and POLITICS, by and large can RUN CIRCLES around most MAJORS in the Army. LT's and even CPT's rating Warrants is a bad idea, especially when the LT and CPT and more often MAJ's and LTC's don't have a clue of what the Warrant does and how they themselves have screwed the pooch, but now want to lay the dead dog at the Warrants feet. Thus Endeth the Sermon. Its up to the ACTIVE DUTY to FIX IT. Retirement is Nice!

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made May 4 at 2018 12:37 PM

2018-05-04T12:37:58-04:00

Well, you are out ranked by a Butterbar no matter how much time in grade you have. A new 2 nd Lt right out of the academy 1 day outranks you!

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made May 4 at 2018 1:19 PM

2018-05-04T13:19:09-04:00

No disrespect to any of the Warrant Officers on here, but, the Army has a crap ton of Warrants!!! I’m medically retired 33 years now and I can only remember having one or two Warrant Officers to a Battalion in the Marine Corps and I even remember 1st and 2nd Lts saying Sir ( mainly respecting their degree of Saltyness!) The “Gunners” walked on water! The enlisted didn’t bother them and the officers went to them for guidance!

Response by SGT Mark Hostetler made May 4 at 2018 4:11 PM

2018-05-04T16:11:07-04:00

Warrent Officers should be rated by Warrent Officers they know what they do and if it’s being done . Simple

Response by LTC G. Paul Corbin made May 4 at 2018 6:53 PM

2018-05-04T18:53:32-04:00

I can only imagine the intimidation factor of a 2nd Lt. evaluating a CW5. "Here Chief, you fill this out."

Response by PO3 Paul Pawlicki made May 4 at 2018 7:44 PM

2018-05-04T19:44:02-04:00

Warrants deserve the same respect as any officer. Many of them have years of experience. So what’s the big deal? What has changed since 1966-1970?

Response by Cpl Patrick Ramsey made May 4 at 2018 9:46 PM

2018-05-04T21:46:56-04:00

I'd go to war with a CWO over a butter bar any day, warrant officers have a quality to them a greenhorn commisioned officer honestly only has a concept of. Lt of any grade have no business writing input on anyones fit rep above the rank of MSgt let alone a WO of any grade; and even then, it needs to be signed off on by a Sr officer. How Sr depending on rank and billet of said WO or CWO. Sorry if you're assigned the billet of BN S6 officer as a CWO4-5, the XO or CO depending on the manpower/deployment scenario NEEDS TO DO IT.
This shit kills me. The individual below you (in most cases) in years of service, occupational, and leadership experience is gonna rate your performance? I mean seriously? Is that how we do things now?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2018 9:55 PM

2018-05-04T21:55:29-04:00

I’ve seen CW1s and 2s but 3s, 4s, and 5s? 3s, 4s, and 5s exist? Those guys are ghosts!!!!who knows where they hang out and lurk.

Response by CWO4 Frank Williams made May 4 at 2018 10:10 PM

2018-05-04T22:10:16-04:00

Must be an Army thing. Marine Corps is not the same and our Warrant Officer population is counted as part of the total Officer population. Army counts Warrants as part of their Enlisted population from what I’ve been told. All CWO2 and above are commissioned officers in the Marines.

Response by CWO2 Fred Branham made May 4 at 2018 11:43 PM

2018-05-04T23:43:56-04:00

When did a CWO become field grade? 1-5 is company grade. May have more time in service but still company grade.

Response by SGT John Griep made May 5 at 2018 12:16 AM

2018-05-05T00:16:50-04:00

Ok, now I have been out a while, but in the 80s and 90s a, CW3 could be a,company commander, which would be an O3 equivalent. Therefore a CW4-5 should have to be rated by an O6? I know things,change but that should not. CW1-5 Are the best ranks in the Military,

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2018 2:04 AM

2018-05-05T02:04:18-04:00

You are still junior to a LT. CW3 to CW5 are not field grades, they have field grade privileges, it also denotes what type of formation they tend to work in company, bn/be a or Div+. Excluding aviation not many LT would ever be in a position in which they would be able to rate a CW3 or better. In aviation 3s are common in the platoon level and would be rated by their platoon leader. This is why senior raters need to mentor young raters to ensure they know how to write and can articulate the true performance of the Soldier being rated.

Response by CW2 Walt Fricke made May 5 at 2018 10:29 AM

2018-05-05T10:29:20-04:00

Good news is they have to find you to rate you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2018 10:38 AM

2018-05-05T10:38:19-04:00

To that point, Noncommissioned Officers serving in the Field (Battalion, Brigade, equivalent) aren't "real officers" either.

That "commission" term is where the breakdown occurs. A CSM would not be rated by an LT (or even a CPT) for the same reason a CW3 shouldn't be rated by an LT.

This is despite the granted Commission status at "Chief" level Warrant Officer ranks.

While we're on annoying rank structure- bring back the Specialist Corps! It basically became the Warrant Officer Corps anyway....

Response by SSG Brian Edwards made May 5 at 2018 1:29 PM

2018-05-05T13:29:46-04:00

I'm glad I'm not in army any more after hearing all this shit, I remember why I got out. The straight answer is if you do your job, most of the time rank will come.

Response by PO3 David Davis made May 5 at 2018 6:09 PM

2018-05-05T18:09:31-04:00

CW ratings are different. I do not see a problem with it.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2018 11:34 AM

2018-05-06T11:34:43-04:00

I get rated by an O4, with review and approval of an O5. I cannot see being rated by an Ensign or LTjg as they are still learning their jobs as opposed to understanding what I do.

Response by CPL David Thompson made May 6 at 2018 1:19 PM

2018-05-06T13:19:38-04:00

Who cares as long as you get paid?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2018 4:11 PM

2018-05-06T16:11:30-04:00

Who cares? Get over yourselves. No board ever Is going to hold this against the rated.

Response by CW3 Raymond Mead made May 6 at 2018 7:25 PM

2018-05-06T19:25:33-04:00

Apparently they have gone back to the same mentaliy as before. I was never rated by less than a Captain, only one major if memory serves me right. My first OER I was sentor rated by a Malor. All of my later OERs were senior rated by an LTC. What really sucked was having a civilian anywhere in your rating chain. I suppoe evaluations are a part of evryone's life. I had raters for almost every job I had after retirement. Warrant Officers are like being seaparate but equal. As a CW3 over 22, I was commissioned by a CW4 and it was signed by the Secretary of The Army rather than the POTUS like the ARLOs. Right after I was appointed, my boss took me to meet with a hard assed CW4. He was in duty dress uniform and working on his boat. (Our office was on the top foof of the Old Point Comfort Yacht Club). He told me "Son I've been in this Army for almost 30 years. Everyone is concerned about OERs. Son, let me tell you right now that I don't give a fuck who rates me, how they rate me or even if they rate me. It's all a part of your career and the pay is the same." At the time I thought that he was damned unprofessional. However over the following nine years I came to understand. We either walked on water or we were just somebody drawing a pay check. There wasn't much in between. Usually, if a young officer rated me, he would ask me to review and edit my OER. I never once was rated by anyone who was even close to my specialty. They actually didn't have any real idea of what we did vs what we should have been doing, or really where we fell into the grand scheme of the Army. It sounds like not much has changed, just the brass and the bird on the hat.

Response by SGT Tim Kulik made May 6 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-05-06T20:50:25-04:00

2nd It. Is to inexperianced.

Response by SSG Marcus Brothers made May 6 at 2018 9:09 PM

2018-05-06T21:09:44-04:00

If a Bn Cdr signed off on a rating scheme that had a 2LT rate a CW2+, then he or she is what is wrong with the rating system.

Response by CPT William Jones made May 6 at 2018 11:32 PM

2018-05-06T23:32:03-04:00

There is a small problem with warrant Officers that seems to have grown worse since my time serving discussions I have had with My son during his time on active duty. It seemed then and also to him that most of the Warrants seem to think they outrank Commissioned officers and can tell them what to do and forget they are outranked by even the freshest newly Commissioned Officer. Wen in fact the newest 2Lt outranks every Warrant in the Army. Any commissioned officer should rate all officers under his supervision. If the commissioned officer has problems his boss can offer guidance.If a Lt is company commander he does the rating for the E8 Sgt that ha6 15 or more years in. I really see no difference with Warrants.

Response by SGM Bob T. made May 7 at 2018 8:15 AM

2018-05-07T08:15:22-04:00

Wow

Response by SCPO Dwight Hazard made May 7 at 2018 9:10 AM

2018-05-07T09:10:01-04:00

The Army has to rethink this policy. A greenhorn 2LT evaluating a seasoned experienced Warrant Officer is like the tail wagging the dog.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made May 7 at 2018 10:08 AM

2018-05-07T10:08:38-04:00

The 2LT should not be rating warrant officers, period. This is not an attempt to promote contempt or perpetuate the NCO Corps institutional disrespect for 2LTs. It is a reflection on their experience. Warrant officers are specialists in their given field. They are supposed to PCS less frequently than enlisted or commissioned personnel to provide continuity from one command to the next and next and next . . .

Response by 2LT Gerald Dominy made May 8 at 2018 8:56 AM

2018-05-08T08:56:20-04:00

You got to love warrant officers. They are not quite enlisted and not officers. And should either get their egos out of bounds or their ambitions too high. Someone who has to be a expert in their systems has got to throw a bucket of icewater on them to sober them up. And that is the job of a warrant officer.

Response by PFC Chuck Witt made May 8 at 2018 1:53 PM

2018-05-08T13:53:03-04:00

My understand was that warrant officers were in between the E ranks and the O ranks. I agree that the 2LT shouldn’t be able to do much since they are still wet behind the ears...they are the “privates” of the commissioned ranks.

Response by SSG Craig Newton made May 8 at 2018 11:09 PM

2018-05-08T23:09:12-04:00

A CW3 or higher should get a rating from an O6 or above. A 2LT shouldn’t rate anyone at all.

Response by COL Pat Thomas made May 9 at 2018 8:21 AM

2018-05-09T08:21:13-04:00

Before we all go out and jump off a cliff on this issue we need to do the math and see what we're actually discussing here. Where do you find most Warrants? Both Aviation and "Ground" Warrants work at the Battalion level or below (Senior Warrants at Brigade and higher work for Majors and above in my experience). CW5s are principally on Senior Staff. Can you point out a CW5 who actually works directly for a 2LT? We're also mixing apples and oranges when we mix raters versus senior raters. While I haven't seen and am not familiar with this new change in the OER system, I would think there may be unusual situations where people are rated by lower ranking seniors, but in those cases there is usually a good reason for doing so.

Response by CW2 Norman Fose made May 9 at 2018 8:40 AM

2018-05-09T08:40:08-04:00

Response by CPT Jeff Robinette made May 9 at 2018 5:29 PM

2018-05-09T17:29:56-04:00

So a wet behind the ears Green as grass 2LT rates a CWO with 15-20 years in the Army and has been doing his job properly and effectively for years.
I didn't see CW5s when I was on Active Duty. That rank didn't exist. But I cannot see a circumstance where i, as a 2LT, would feel comfortable rating that CHIEF Warrent Officer.
I felt the same way when I would Rate my Platoon Sergeants. But the difference for me was that I was Branch Qualified Officer, and had little experience in that COW's field.

Response by CW3 Doyle Frost made May 9 at 2018 7:03 PM

2018-05-09T19:03:25-04:00

Never had a rating by anyone below captain, even as a "Wobbly One." Then again, that might have just been our units. Senior rater was always 0-6 or higher. Didn't make any difference to me, as I did my job the best I could, and everyone up the chain seemed to be satisfied. To me, the ones that counted, MY troops, seemed to find satisfaction with my work.

Response by CMSgt Mike Esser made May 9 at 2018 8:32 PM

2018-05-09T20:32:14-04:00

How did the reg read before?

Response by SFC Stanley Sayers made May 9 at 2018 11:44 PM

2018-05-09T23:44:59-04:00

Kind of takes away from your achievement doesn’t it?

Response by CWO4 Gene A. made May 10 at 2018 1:31 PM

2018-05-10T13:31:25-04:00

Most of the comments here have been from Army Chief Warrants. As a former E9 and Navy Chief Warrant I was always afforded the acceptance and responsibilities of other Commissioned Officers. BTW, the Navy CWO's are commissioned. As was often the case in my field, Communications/Intelligence, I/we filled a variety of more senior officer billets. In my case, I filled O-4/O-5 billets during my 28 year career. I might add, having been a Senior enlisted prior to my commissioning, was a factor in many of my assignments since leadership experience exceeded that which many Commissioned Line Officers had. Suppose my comments are only meant to suggest that one cannot pidgeon hole Rank and or experience of Any Officer. Differences and circumstances dictate.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 3:37 PM

2018-05-10T15:37:15-04:00

I guess you have got me on this one. A 2nd lieutenant doesn't have the experience to tell much of anyone to do , they have gotten more people killed than the enemy.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-05-10T17:17:18-04:00

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Response by COL Ardis Ferguson made May 10 at 2018 6:02 PM

2018-05-10T18:02:55-04:00

I’ve not put CW4 and above in a position to be rated by an LT, they worked at higher levels and were rated by LTC or COL and many times Senior Rated by GOs ant time I designed the rating scheme. My first warrant officer contact was CW4 Crow many years ago in a far off land. That was the benchmark and my respect for Warrants has been to rate/senior rate at a level commensurate with the level of the organization where they are assigned. A WO1 with a 2LT rated, CPR senior rated, CW2 rated by a CPT, senior rated by a MAJ/ LTC etc. just my thoughts and how I position Warrant Officers in support of unit missions

Response by Cpl Gabriel F. made May 10 at 2018 6:08 PM

2018-05-10T18:08:09-04:00

Strange no reason regulation.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 9:01 PM

2018-05-10T21:01:24-04:00

Navy Warrants don’t give a shit!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2018 8:23 PM

2018-05-11T20:23:27-04:00

Sorry CW3 but the last time I checked you had to salute the 2LT and so does the CW5. If he out ranks you be can rate rate you. If that bothers you you should have become real officer and not an over paid under used NCO.

Response by GySgt Lawrence D. Pool made May 12 at 2018 8:52 AM

2018-05-12T08:52:45-04:00

Holy crap! That is very hard to believe. Yes, technically, a 2nd Lt. is senior to a CWO-5. Hopefully, they are smart enough to realize they had best not push the fact. In the Marine Corps, I have known more than one 2nd Lt be put in their place by a CWO-4. There were no CWO-5s when I was on active duty.

Response by SGT John C. made May 12 at 2018 2:51 PM

2018-05-12T14:51:55-04:00

I think this needs to be run up the flag pole at the 5 sided hotel. Someone needs to be made aware of that little "mistake".

Response by SGT Latin Flavor made May 13 at 2018 12:00 PM

2018-05-13T12:00:27-04:00

It all boils down to who has to salute who first!!! Do the math.. not hard to figure out who is holding a higher rank. Of a csm is supposed to satute a second LT and that LT makes more money than a sgt .. education is powerful not always fair..

Response by PO1 Ronald Parker made May 13 at 2018 6:11 PM

2018-05-13T18:11:14-04:00

Before you make a comment please check your branch of service and the associated regs.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 9:04 PM

2018-05-13T21:04:24-04:00

It’s been like that always

Response by Col Jonathan Brazee made May 14 at 2018 12:13 PM

2018-05-14T12:13:05-04:00

Rank is rank, and seniority is seniority. A second lieutenant is senior to a CWO5, just as he or she is senior to gunnery sergeant, even if both the gunny and the CWO5 have years more experience. So, if, as some post here, a 2ndLt should not rate a CWO5, then when is that lieutenant allowed to rate someone. First lieutenant? First lieutenant with a year in grade? Captain? Or, as one person posted, if the second lieutenant served as enlisted? Wait moment, what if he or she was an E3? What about if he or she was an E7? Sorry, but I don't buy any of that. We have a rank system for a reason, and seniority is seniority.

I'm not sure about the other services, but I can't think it is much different. After the senior rates a junior Marine, a still more senior officer reviews that rating. If some brand new second lieutenant, full of righteous indignation about ratings creep, decided to give a CWO3 an "average" report, thinking it is a good thing, then the reviewing officer would step in.

Response by CW3 Robert Haffly made May 15 at 2018 10:35 AM

2018-05-15T10:35:27-04:00

My rater was always a CPT(03) or higher. SR Rater was a MAJ or LTC, and reviewer a LTC or higher. Had a Major General once as a reviewer due to a command change.

Response by SPC David Dupey made May 15 at 2018 10:35 AM

2018-05-15T10:35:34-04:00

That just doesn't sound right it us to be that warent officer needed to be 1Lt or higher not a 2Lt and cw3 cw4 cw5 us to be captain or higher

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2018 7:39 AM

2018-05-16T07:39:30-04:00

Don't care. The purpose of the OER is to track your career progression and to assist you in getting promoted. If a 2LT's signature will do that; fine.

Response by CW4 Clark Wilson made May 25 at 2018 9:06 PM

2018-05-25T21:06:19-04:00

I agree, I have observed that too often Warrant Officers, especially Aviators are unfairly evaluated by inexperienced commissioned officers. My last OER before I retired from active duty as a CW4 was written by a very junior 2LT. This young officer, who was fresh out of flight school, gave me the worst OER of my entire 21 year career in the Army. This 2LT was my rater only because I was then slotted as a Warrant Officer aviator in his platoon, even though my actual duty at that time was performing duties as the Battalion Standardization Instructor Pilot (SP). The TO&E at that time did not have a slot for a Battalion SP. I barely knew this guy and my only direct contact with him was when I gave him a no notice flight evaluation for which I found his performance to be unsatisfactory. Looking back, I should have appealed this bad OER.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2018 4:18 PM

2018-05-26T16:18:51-04:00

Fuck that.. as a warrant officer.. you have to know the ins and outs of your field..no LT knows shit about that.. how can they rank you when they hardly know the army

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2018 4:21 PM

2018-05-26T16:21:51-04:00

In active duty the LTS were told to shut up and learn..warrants have been in their field many years .

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 12:39 AM

2018-05-27T00:39:28-04:00

My Dad was a CWII and came up through the NCO ranks. He had 5 boys and all but one of them have served. Dad put in just over 22 years. And as for me I turned down two ways to become and officer. I have been put in leadership positions at my rank even cause others above me didn't want to do it and because of the expertise I did things with on the job. And I have had three people that were up to three ranks above me. And when I ETSed I got an ARCOM for my time in as my highest award. And EVERY Time I had someone that out ranked me They Lost.

I say all of that because almost Every 2nd Lt. Liked to play power games. I only had one that ever acted like he should have. And I see way too much chance for a 2nd Lt. playing a power game with the CWs. And CW's fill a very essential nitch in the military and we do not need unnecessary end fighting. And really if I understood you right a CW5 is supposed to be evaluated by a Maj and from what my dad told me when there were just 4 levels of CWs that a CW4 had the same pull as a full bird Col. But at least they have some years of experience. And that said no W or CW should be evaluated by anyone lower than a 1st Lt and pref. Maj. or higher.

Response by 1SG Sal Alvarado made May 27 at 2018 9:04 AM

2018-05-27T09:04:58-04:00

There are some very smart and sharp second lieutenants. There are also a lot of them who need experience, growing up, and more education. I have worked with what I consider to be the very best, and I have also work with some lieutenant who don't have a clue. This is an insane policy. Second lieutenant should never be given the opportunity to rate warrant officers.

Response by CW5 Bill Sorenson made May 28 at 2018 5:30 PM

2018-05-28T17:30:40-04:00

I retired in 96 and was on the 2nd CW5 list out of DA. I was in aviation. I know that there are always changes that happen. I have not seen the new OER system, but I know that there are "Selected Slots" for CW5 and I don't know of any that would be rated by a 2nd or 1st LT. As far as the rest, it should be part of CW3's and 4's to educate LT's and CPT's because many of them have a vast experience in their field. Junior people, if they don't listen to advise, are really missing out.

Response by CW5 Donna Smith made May 28 at 2018 9:00 PM

2018-05-28T21:00:42-04:00

A 2nd LT would never have the opportunity to rate a CW5. First of all, the chain of command would not allow it and second of all, most 2LTs do not have enough experience to rate a CW5. 2LT's should be rating the young enlisted in their command and learn from the seasoned officers how to rate those in higher pay grades.

As a CW5 I never had to worry about being rated or senior rated by anyone below the rank of LTC. So, it is going to depend on the chain of command and from my experience, most senior officers do not allow very junior officers to rate CW5's.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2018 5:21 PM

2018-06-06T17:21:58-04:00

LT's don't have a rating profile so their "rater" comments don't carry nearly as much as that of the senior rater (maybe CPT, most likely O-4 and above) who does have a profile. I can't imagine a WO being at promotion risk for merely having a LT as a rater. That being said, I do understand the consternation some CW's have with the perception of being rated by a LT when compared to Field Grade Officer rating schemes.

Response by PO1 Milton Wiseman made Jun 20 at 2018 11:47 AM

2018-06-20T11:47:16-04:00

Exactly, the Warrent Officer is the EXPERT in his or her field. O1 through O3 are still getting the hang leading, managing, they are just becoming Leaders at O3.
I agree with these WO' s, time for that change.

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Jun 25 at 2018 9:47 AM

2018-06-25T09:47:00-04:00

2LT can barely find their way around unless they're prior enlisted. Being allowed the "Rate" anyone is a clear joke by some pencil pusher in DC who likely got their ass handed to them by a Warrant when they first got aboard as a "Shaved Tail". Anyone with common sense would say that only a 0-3 or above should be rating Warrants as respect to their time in service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2018 8:53 PM

2018-07-06T20:53:08-04:00

1SG Reed, I'm in an IN company, so we don't have WOs, but my 2LTs rate their SSGs with ABUNDANT INPUT from their platoon sergeants. After all, the squad leaders work for the platoon leader.
It wasn't long ago (in my memory) that field grade warrants didn't exist. It's interesting that they are outranked by a 2LT, but are perceived senior to them.
All of this is moot anyway - when's the last time any of y'all actually saw a non-flying warrant, anyway?

Response by SSgt James Krause made Jul 16 at 2018 7:47 PM

2018-07-16T19:47:12-04:00

Not a problem in the Air Force. The knowers-of-all decided that E8s and E9s already did everything a warrant could do. So they dropped them.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2018 3:47 PM

2018-07-18T15:47:41-04:00

The BAH tables, protocol positions for DA civilians, and titles like Field Grade and Comany Grade, or Junior and Senior NCOs, should not be confused. If I am your boss,I need the power of the pen.

Response by CW3 Ed Vincent made Jul 21 at 2018 8:51 AM

2018-07-21T08:51:53-04:00

We should be rated by a field grade officer. I was one of the last direct warrant appointees back in 1981 (ancient I know) with almost 18 years of service. It would have made me made as hell then to have been rated by a 2LT at that time

Response by COL Jack Taliaferro made Jul 22 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-07-22T13:23:55-04:00

I sent a senior WO friend into orbit when I told him that we were going to brevet him to 2LT at his retirement ceremony.

Response by COL Greg Schultz made Jul 24 at 2018 12:06 AM

2018-07-24T00:06:38-04:00

A CW3 is not a field grade. And since rating schemes are based on both relative rank and position, no CW5, or CW3 for that matter, would be in a position which is subordinate to a 2LT.

Response by CPT Earl George made Jul 27 at 2018 5:32 PM

2018-07-27T17:32:36-04:00

I am guessing that a 2LT could be in charge of a CW5. In 1976, I saw a 2LT be given command of a Basic Training Company.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Jul 30 at 2018 5:49 PM

2018-07-30T17:49:31-04:00

CW's are technicians in a senses of the word. I am proud of my CW. He entered the Army at 34 years old. Maxed out the PT test, went on to Mechanic school and maxed out as an E-2. Went in-country and is now a CW3. They should be rated based on the same level as their pay grade by the next level up. When I was an MSG my rater was a COL and endorser a two star. When they reduced the paper work for GO's my rater became a GS 11. WTF? over.

Response by SPC Maurice Tillman made Aug 6 at 2018 4:28 PM

2018-08-06T16:28:21-04:00

As far as the rank structure goes, 2Lt's are a higher rank and sometimes high authority than warrant officers. That's just how the cookie crumbles. It's no different than privates being counselled by specialists. It's not "right" but it is legal.

Response by MSgt Robert Branscome made Aug 8 at 2018 10:59 PM

2018-08-08T22:59:54-04:00

A 2lt is nothing but a PFC in officer ranks. he knows nothing about anything to be able to rate anyone. He is still learning from the Staff NCO's himself.

Response by CPT Wayne Smith made Jun 24 at 2019 3:50 AM

2019-06-24T03:50:32-04:00

My thoughts? My dad was a CW4 in the Corp of Engineers. I was a RA Captain in the Corp of Engineers. He served 28 years... 1948 to 1977. I served 5 years... 1979 to 1984. He fought in Korea and served most of his time in overseas assignments. I have always had the upmost respect for Warrants. I would never attempt to compare my experience to his nor consider myself qualified to rate him. His last assignment was the S-3 for the 36th Engineer Group at Fort Benning, a Major slot. He was rated by a Full Bird O-6. Company grade officers avoided him. Maybe the Army has changed? It’s sad if it has to the point that Warrants are no longer feared and respected for the experts they are.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jun 28 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-06-28T20:09:34-04:00

This is an easy one All commissioned officers outrank all Warrant officers
they also outrank all enlisted men. There is no such thing as a field grade warrant. They get housing and a few things like that as a privilege. The do have lots of experience but are a Tech In a relative limited field.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jun 28 at 2019 9:04 PM

2019-06-28T21:04:48-04:00

This gets hard to figure sometimes. Back in the 60's Engineers provided tach maps ans in the whole wide world there were only THREE Warrants in the Army with the MOS in the map company. One in Germany, one in Japan And the last in DC. They did pretty much as they pleased on assignments transfers etc. When one wanted to change stations he called the others, they decided what they wanted and the one in DC went to G! and told them to write the orders. Very unusual situation They were rated By the company CO in the field and a flag officer in DC. The companies were commanded by what was available from O1-03.

Response by SGT Ro Sapper made Nov 20 at 2019 10:48 AM

2019-11-20T10:48:04-05:00

If you cant beat them, then join them!

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Nov 20 at 2019 2:07 PM

2019-11-20T14:07:46-05:00

I worked in ordinance as a 63H(tank mechanic) in a support battalion forward support team. Yeah, a 2LT outranks both CW3 and CSM, but I guarantee any battalion XO or commander with a lick of sense will most likely go with the WO or CSM. There’s rank, then there’s experience through hash marks!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2019 6:27 PM

2019-11-20T18:27:46-05:00

LTs can’t really rate. As a 1LT company commander anytime I was the SR rater everything I rated had to be reviewed by CPT+ Only when my LTC was the Sr rater a review was never needed.

An LT doing any rating is never the final say.

Response by SPC John Decker made Mar 1 at 2020 8:27 PM

2020-03-01T20:27:46-05:00

Without knowing the technical, military difference in the nature of the difference between a Commission and a Warrant, I think that's where the issue lies.

Response by LTC Chris Kleymeyer made Apr 2 at 2020 11:39 PM

2020-04-02T23:39:39-04:00

After enduring my first promotion board - I learned that there’s barely time to skim the rater’s portion. The Senior Rater’s (SR) profile and comments count. Colonel’s gave top blocks/highest comment’s to their subordinate commanders and a very few other’s in order to ensure that their SR profiles complied.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2020 8:51 AM

2020-11-05T08:51:47-05:00

We wrote our Fitness Report ourselves, through our actions every day.