Was I wrong in this situation?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 17:43:47 -0400

I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.

I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.

Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...

Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.

To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2022 6:05 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:05:17 -0400

Hard to say without going over the NCO's past history of behavior but I will say you're in for a rough road if he continues this behavior with the CSM's stance on the matter.

Documentation and witness statements going forward might be necessary.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 19 at 2022 6:12 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:12:25 -0400

You shouldn’t have involved the Sgt Maj so early on.

You did right having the OIC there but you should have moved forward with putting pen to paper and make it official. You don’t bring the kid to the Sgt Maj in the heat of the moment. You don’t take it to them until it’s bullet proofed and vetted

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 19 at 2022 6:17 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:17:29 -0400

Do they have a relationship? The good ole buddy system often exists in the NG. I have met some outstanding NG and AGR soldiers and leaders in my time, but I have also seen some NCOs and Officers who were horrible leaders.

In situations like that it is often prudent to meet the senior leader without the culprit to get a feeling for what the senior leader is thinking.

Response by SGT Jim Arnold made Sep 19 at 2022 6:29 PM

SGT Jim Arnold — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:29:43 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member this is a case of "power of the pen" which is in your favor. documentation on NCOER should reflect it

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2022 6:30 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:30:27 -0400

It's easy to quarterback this after reading this but.....you did not do anything wrong in my opinion except that you involved CSM early on. Having said that, there is no excuse for that E5's behavior. Completely unacceptable. That CSM made a mistake by siding with and excusing their behavior. Your not old school, you were doing the right thing. Unfortunately now, he thinks he is even more untouchable since he is boys with the CSM. He needs to be "humbled".

Response by CSM Eric Biggs made Sep 19 at 2022 7:28 PM

CSM Eric Biggs — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 19:28:40 -0400

This pisses me off! As a CSM this really pisses me off. That E5 was extremely wrong; disrespect, insubordinate, not leading the way (by not cleaning his weapon).
You should have put paper to pen and given him a counseling statement when he refused to follow your directions, covering everything. You were right to have the PL there with you. I probably would have briefed the LT prior to the conversation with that E5, and ask him if the E5 was argumentative, or insubordinate the LT could have given him a direct order. If he refused at that point because he is an AGR, the LT could push for an Article 15. I would have also skipped the CSM and taken the issue to the 1SG first.
Last but not least, the comments from the CSM, especially in front of the E5 were wrong. The CSM should have backed you up and fried that E5. If he holds his AGR's at a higher standard than TPU's (which is wrong), he really should have fried that E5. You are not supported by your CSM! I would look for a new home, since this leadership is garbage.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 19 at 2022 7:51 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 19:51:20 -0400

The standard should be immediate intelligent obedience. Based on your narrative the E-5 (Specialist?) doesn't grasp that, and has no intention of grasping that. I'm not familiar with Army reserve, but in the Marine Corps, for such flagrant behavior, I'd have given him a meritorious demotion to E-3 and some brig time.

P.S. There may be some problem that has cued up his bad behavior. Many care. I don't. He could have handled such a problem any number of better ways. He clearly doesn't have the maturity one expects of an E-5 NCO or Specialist. If he can't follow, he doesn't deserve to lead.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2022 8:18 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:18:33 -0400

Other than including the CSM so quickly, I feel you did nothing wrong. That pay grade....because I refuse to call anyone that acted like they did an NCO.....should have been smoked from one side of the range to the other...but I digress.

Even though they are AGR, are you the Rater for this Pay Grade of a body? If so, then put all of this to paper. Develop a Counseling under Event Oriented. Obviously describe everything that happened. Then.....in the Plan of Action....instruct the Pay Grade to write a 500 word essay on Disrespect to an NCO, what Article of UCMJ that violates, what the repercussions could be, and how the disrespectful actions negatively affect unit cohesion. The instructions for the essay are to be: In Pen (not typed) and Print (not cursive). Then, if they do not follow that plan of action, have them write a 1000 word essay covering Failure to Follow a Lawful Order from an NCO. Same parameters. Of course, do a counseling for this new essay. Boom. You have paperwork trail to back up a recommendation for an Article 15.

The fact that Leadership, other than the LT, chose not to back you up.....that shit is just garbage.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2022 8:33 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:33:54 -0400

Reading this makes my blood boil. Start a paper trail, counsel him on everything he said and did. When he refuses to sign, escalate it. There is no place for people like that in the Army, especially on AGR. Good thing he doesn’t work in my BN. I’d be on the phone with his Assignments NCO at HRC. He needs to be kicked off the AGR program.

Response by Joe Bobo made Sep 19 at 2022 9:58 PM

Joe Bobo — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 21:58:09 -0400

You should tell his first line leader or whoever can give the dude a counseling statement. Start there . Don't just run your mouth without evidence.

Response by Joe Bobo made Sep 19 at 2022 9:59 PM

Joe Bobo — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 21:59:01 -0400

Maybe even pull out a voice recorder or a cell phone recording and then tell him too do it

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2022 11:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 23:28:58 -0400

You weren't wrong exactly, you were just using the wrong tool in your toolbox. Pushups are for painful lessons for Joe's, once you are an NCO your lessons have to involve a different type of pain. Professional pain like counseling, corrective action, additional duties, etc are what you need to use with NCOs. Grab the ear of a senior NCO you respect and ask them what they would have done in that situation and add that tool to your toolbox

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2022 12:36 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 00:36:12 -0400

You need to use the tools the Army gives us to destroy him and get him fired from his means of employment. THAT gets attention, push ups doesn't.

AGR's will manipulate their position as the full time staff and basically inconvenience you at every turn. In the end it's the TPU unit commander that suffers.

You as a SSG TPU are of no consequence to that E5 AGR. Yes, OK, that's nice, you can put him in the front leaning rest, but you aren't managing his work week, you aren't docking any pay, and you probably aren't his rater (I presume).

This is probably going to blow back on you until a unit commander has had enough of him AND has the skills and stamina to endure the uphill battle to discipline an AGR.

This is probably best handled through the unit 1SG and Commander. The CO's signature on a counseling statement and on an NCOER as the Sr Rater (I presume) will end him at probably his next look for another AGR tour.

I probably would thrash him on PRESENCE on his NCOER, but you need the counseling statement to stick on his NCOER. Then you need to do the NCOER knowing it's going to get dragged through the system very slowly because he'll probably appeal it, not sign it and just use up all this cards in the game.

So whatever happens the actions against him need to stick, and that's going to take a CO that's willing to hold to his guns, and not buckle to BN or BDE not wanting to deal with losing an AGR.

*********
What it takes is the CO to hold to his guns, because that's where the BUCK can be kicked back UP if the CO stops kicking the can down the road, but all the ducks need to be set up to help the Company Level CO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2022 8:09 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 08:09:20 -0400

Seems to me the CSM doesn't hold his AGR troops to a higher standard.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 20 at 2022 10:28 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 10:28:32 -0400

Wrong in the end by the Sgt.

Q: why woul you a SSG tell and SFC that you would handle something, likely that you are not an AGR NCOs supervisor. Taking a LT to correct an NCO as opposed to his supervisor makes no sense. Dropping him before you even addressed the issue calmly as you stated. The chances of him hearing what you have to say from the front leaning rest is not likely

You are correct I that he should have follows your order, if the LT was there why did he not quell the situation.

Bottom line as you step yourself he had been unruly the entire day, I assume several officers and NCOs saw and or heard him. So, we’re you correct i. How you handled it, not really, we’re you wrong, no completely.

Finally, how did this skip his supervisor, the 1SG, the CO and get to the CSM.

As for the CSM, for me not truly grasping what is all missing here, he was wrong in his address to you, the message that sends to the unit and how he himself sees things.

Learn from your error, know the leaders above you and take an approach that will glean the desired result.

Dont stopping making corrections, just realize there are many ways to reach a desired result, each path may be different to get to the same place.

Response by SPC Danny Barnes made Sep 20 at 2022 12:36 PM

SPC Danny Barnes — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 12:36:54 -0400

No, you weren't. CSM was wrong in not speaking to you before meeting with the individual. Not much of a soldier either one of them.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Sep 20 at 2022 12:44 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 12:44:26 -0400

Welcome to a kinder and gentler Army. In my opinion [and you know what that is worth] you were correct in your actions. My only advise, counsel you subordinances on your terms [in an office, training room, or any area you control].

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Sep 20 at 2022 12:47 PM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 12:47:52 -0400

SSG Jason Cramer You were right and that AGR E5 NCO was wrong. The range is no place for stupidity.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 20 at 2022 1:19 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 13:19:19 -0400

A couple of things. Did you or anyone else bring this NCO's actions to the Attention of the Range OIC? Why did a SFC let an E-5 talk to him like that without reading him the riot act right there? Pisses me off that the CSM didn't support you.
How come the Officers on the range were putting up with this kind of Crap. I would have had him in the wood line outlining his individual moral, ethical and professional failings and what I wanted done about it. He wants to go to his boss, I'm more than happy to have a open door with his bosses boss.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2022 3:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 15:21:47 -0400

Because there are two sides to every story, I'm responding to your question "with reservation." Based on your side, I think your approach wasn't escalated prematurely, it was just applied to the wrong E5. Personally, I possess what GEN Petraeus refers to as an "adaptive" leadership style. As a leader, we must know what style will bring the best out of each individual under us and then apply that style to the individual. If it was me, as soon as I smelled arrogance and belligerence, I would have transitioned to more of a "listener" role because that's what that particular E5 needed, to be heard. Regardless of UCMJ, rank structure etc. we are all human beings first, Soldiers second, so we can't expect all to respond the same way to the old school "shut up and stand at parade rest" approach. Figure out which approach is required to bring the best out of each subordinate. Take a look at the below video. (0.00 - 1.35).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnjuB6cxdGw

David Petraeus: Leadership

David Petraeus on Strategic Leadership | http://belfercenter.org/PetraeusStrat...

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Sep 20 at 2022 6:24 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 18:24:02 -0400

You did right- your CSM to me, was way out of line. All his NCOs should be important to him. Wpn maint should be important to him and damn common courtesies between all his NCOs should be important to him!

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Sep 20 at 2022 7:14 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 19:14:35 -0400

I understand your frustration. Some soldiers try to get away with somethings. Usually it's best to nip those things
In.the bud.Much like you attempted to.do.

Response by SGT Talma Brown made Oct 10 at 2022 3:31 AM

SGT Talma Brown — Mon, 10 Oct 2022 03:31:58 -0400

In some ways you were right, and in other ways you were being a power-hungry jerk. YOU escalated it, because you wanted to be treated like 'god' because of your rank. You should have asked him WHY he wasnt doing what you thought he should be doing. Your rank means nothing if your soldiers dont respect you because of YOUR conduct toward them.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2022 11:02 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:02:19 -0400

Best of luck in getting this sorted out. I think you're on the right track.

Response by GySgt Rick Roy made Nov 14 at 2022 12:31 AM

GySgt Rick Roy — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 00:31:32 -0500

There is little doubt in my mind that if what has been described is the standard of discipline within the US Army, then we are truly defeated already!
I am a retired USMC Gysgt and if a Sgt talked to me in that manner or refused to clean a rifle he had fired, I would simple have sent him the the company office, gone in to see the company commander and would have put that miserable little turd under charges of disrespect, insubordination, and any other thing I could think of! Should the Company Commander not back me 100% (that not going to happen in the Marine Corps), I would immediately request mast to the battalion commander, and if he did not back me, the Regimental Commander would be the next step!
I once had a Marine Sgt back talk me and found myself with a company commander who stood exactly where he should have, Reduced to Corporal, 30 days pay were his penalty! Tough learning lesson for one stupid jerk who thought way to much of himself!
Little problem with him afterwards because I really wanted L/cpl, 3months pay, but the jerk was married and I backed off for his families sake!
PLEASE REMEMBER, this is the same POS that will tell his Plt. Sgt to go F himself when he's told to take out that enemy emplacement!
YOUR IN A BAD COMMAND, AND YOUR COMMAND SGT MAJOR IS A BLITHERING POS IDIOT!
I sincerely pray that this represents only you Doggies, for if the Marine Corps has gone down that same road, there is absolutely NOTHING standing between the United States of America and our enemies!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC RET.

Response by SGT Joseph Stephany made Nov 14 at 2022 9:38 AM

SGT Joseph Stephany — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 09:38:14 -0500

I was ANG in the early 90's. I Understand your frustration, however I would have used my chain of command differently. Yes go to your 1st Sgt first or other NCO you trust. I would never had done a drop and give me twenty order. That is in my opinion a punishment for BCT, AIT and other schools.
would need to know more about the soldiers history but sounds like a long time problem with solider who does not want to be a solider anymore.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2022 3:29 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:29:39 -0500

He would still be at the unit cleaning his weapon.

Response by SPC David C. made Nov 14 at 2022 11:31 PM

SPC David C. — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 23:31:13 -0500

Your CSM is a pussy and a weak leader. Fuck him. Write the NCO up for insubordination and failure to follow a direct order. If he gives you shit, take him to the tree line. If the CSM and any brass don't support you, take it over their heads. And keep taking it over their heads. Reserve, National Guard, Active Duty...doesn't matter. Rank is rank and orders are orders, If you let this slide, it will only go down hill from here. And not just with that NCO. Word will get out you're a punk and everyone will start disrespecting you. I used to tell my squad, fear or respect. Make your choice but you will have one of the two. My preference is respect but at the end of the day the results will be the same either way.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2022 3:22 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 03:22:14 -0500

At this point in my career I would have shut the door and gone off the rails on that csm. Maybe I'm just tired of ncos and senior ones at that not doing the right thing. Don't want to do the right thing then gtfo and let someone who will be in that position. Maybe I'm just pissed off because I just had fusion surgery in my neck on the 10th because of ncos not doing the right thing. Maybe I'm just pissed off because I am going to be medically discharged because ncos didn't do the right thing.

Response by Sgt Ed Bowers made Nov 15 at 2022 7:53 AM

Sgt Ed Bowers — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:53:43 -0500

Your CSM was wrong on a couple of counts.
1. Speaking in front of both of you. He should have addressed you separately.
2. Had I the clout I would have busted the E5 for disobeying a direct order, 2 in fact.
I would not want to serve in any outfit with a go along to get along CSM.
I may be biased but that would not have happened in the Marine Corps where I served.

Response by SGT Jeff Bush made Nov 15 at 2022 9:23 PM

SGT Jeff Bush — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 21:23:42 -0500

This is disgusting and this would not fly in my former unit in the 82nd nor in any full active duty unit. You were not wrong. That CSM is a toxic leader and ought to be ashamed of himself. You do not undermine your NCO leaders in front of some buck sergeant who’s too big for his OCPs. If he had a problem with your handling of the situation he should have pulled you aside after backing you up and demanding that disrespectful E5 get in the front lean and rest like you instructed him. I would be counseling him, engaging the 1SG and pushing for an article 15

Response by GySgt Lloyd Beckford made Nov 28 at 2022 6:50 PM

GySgt Lloyd Beckford — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 18:50:47 -0500

I will get straight to the point. I had a similar situation and I had to charge the Marine, I used the UCMJ in the way in the way it was meant to. You can't save a rotten apple from going bad but you can get ride of it so the other apples don't follow suit and go bad also. The pen is a mighty weapon when dealing with 'Knuckle Heads'.

Response by SFC Jerry McLellen made Dec 14 at 2022 2:58 PM

SFC Jerry McLellen — Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:58:13 -0500

If your answer to a conflict with a NCO that is junior to you is to put him in the front leaning rest, that is not saying much about your leadership. Why should anybody care about your prior active duty time, the number of deployments you may have had, or your rank, if you come off to them as an arrogant asshole? Sounds like you are the bigger problem. You disrespect your subordinates and they will disrespect you.

Response by MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow made Dec 24 at 2022 3:05 PM

MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 15:05:00 -0500

No you were not in the wrong, I would have him up on insubordination charges and asked for article 15.

Response by SFC Dennis Rodriguez made Dec 29 at 2022 1:34 PM

SFC Dennis Rodriguez — Thu, 29 Dec 2022 13:34:10 -0500

Unfortunately, that's how the Army reserve works. That's a problem that is Army reserve wide so it doesn't matter if you move to another unit. I was an AGR so every unit I was assigned to I was the outsider. There are bonds, clicks, groups, or whatever you want to call it that are formed and the Soldiers within them are protected regardless of rank. I remember reporting a Soldiers insubordination to a CPT. The CPTs reply was that if he is lying it would the first time of him ever doing it. Essentially, he called me a liar. The E4 smirked and I just left it at that. I imagine they had a good laugh at my expense behind my back. Chose your battles and watch your back. You never know who you are dealing with in the Army reserve. Good luck.

Response by SGT Dennis Jones made Jan 2 at 2023 2:14 AM

SGT Dennis Jones — Mon, 02 Jan 2023 02:14:27 -0500

I would have set the NCO down and had a talk with him. Then if he wouldn't listen take him to the Platon SGT. and if he kept up his disrespect take him to the !SGT> after that then bring in the PLT Leader. if he disobeys the officer you write Article 15 on this NCO. I don't care if he's an agr status.

Response by SGT Doug Blanchard made Jan 2 at 2023 9:05 PM

SGT Doug Blanchard — Mon, 02 Jan 2023 21:05:06 -0500

Just to throw my 2 cents into the discussion. I was a Sgt E5 when I got out. The E5 in your post definitely showed disrespect both to his stripes, which he should have never received, the LT should have raked him over the coals for his attitude, and the CSM should have never sided with him. The CSM showed his colors in this matter, but I digress. I like you am old school, way old school. Back in my day, he would have been brought in before the Top for an attitude adjustment, if that did not work, it would then be escalated to the CO, at the discretion of the TOP, for further corrective action. But I do agree with you that he showed disrespect towards you, his fellow NCOs. Chances are good that he will now or does already figure that he can mouth off any time and or place and get away with it, and do whatever he pleases.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Feb 4 at 2023 10:15 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 10:15:56 -0500

.
Have You Not Been Shown The Proper Method Of Using The Butt Of A Rifle ?
"Mouth Off 1 -2, Mouth Off 3-4 , Mouth Off Again 1-2-3 - 4 "BAM" !!... TEETH LOST!!

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Feb 5 at 2023 2:16 AM

SSG Bill McCoy — Sun, 05 Feb 2023 02:16:58 -0500

It does not appear that you were wrong although I don't nkow what the CSM meant by escalating the event too soon. Even IF that was true, the CSM was completely, and utterly wrong, at LEAST in terms of chastising you in front of the SGT/E-5. The CSM should have BACKED YOU UP in front of the SGT/E-5, and "perhaps" made his [dsiparaging] comments to you one-on-one.
As for him holding the AGR, "to a higher standard," on the contrary! It sounds like he holds him to a much, much lower standard! Sounds more like he simply respects the AGR more than a Reservist NCO and that's total BULL.
It sounds like the SGT/E-5 should have faced some harsh NJP ... at least Company Grade but more appropriate, a Field Grade since he not only disrespected you and a SFC, but an officer, or officers, as well.
I can't imagine what, or why, a CSM would have such a thought process.
At this point, I'd go to your 1SG and ask to see the CO with him/her, AND the LT you mentioned. I'd push for NJP there. After all, the CO has more horsepower than the CSM although CSM's have a great deal of power on their own. I guess it depends on how gutsy, and how much backing you might expect, or not, from your 1SG and/or CO.
Be aware though, that when the dust settles, the CSM is likely to be very unhappy; but hey, sometimes you gotta show people like that CSM where the bear craps.

Response by SP5 Wick Humble made Feb 15 at 2023 12:38 PM

SP5 Wick Humble — Wed, 15 Feb 2023 12:38:32 -0500

Couldn't send him to 'Nam, I suppose?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2023 11:59 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:59:48 -0500

I agree with you 100%. This soldier obviously has issues with rank and doesn’t respect rank or what a chain of command is. I am shocked your CSM sided with him.

Response by SPC Kynthia Rosgeal made Feb 21 at 2023 9:35 PM

SPC Kynthia Rosgeal — Tue, 21 Feb 2023 21:35:50 -0500

Were you wrong in attempting to bring a shitbird into line ? Not at all. That's why we have Sr NCOs. To lead.

Going to the CSM ? Sorry, you did escalate too quickly. This should have been brought to Tops attention. It is, after all, his company. Every one of those troops is his or her responsibility.

Plus, 1st shirts are pretty damn good at researching a problem. We don't know what's going on in this E5s personal life. Should it have caused a problem on the range ? Absolutely not. But it may have.

The Job description of a CSM is not to correct Jr NCOs. CSM should not have corrected you in front of a subordinate. So there were serious missteps here but it is the reserves, that's going to happen.

You 1st shirt is a company level Bishop in this chess game. An incredibly powerful piece that can be a game changer.

To be serious. Youight need to rethink your strategy in the future, as any good chess player would do.

Response by CSM Tim Bebus made Feb 21 at 2023 10:56 PM

CSM Tim Bebus — Tue, 21 Feb 2023 22:56:35 -0500

Off subject but One thing that bothers me, and this is specific to the Army is referring to Soldiers by there pay grade. This person is not an E-5, He is a Sergeant. I had to continously pound this into my Soldiers heads. You would never call a Captain O-3 or your 1SG E-8. However on the enlisted side in the Army this is constantly done for SGT, SSG and SFC very disrespectful.

Response by SP6 Brandon Thrasher made Feb 23 at 2023 10:26 AM

SP6 Brandon Thrasher — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:26:28 -0500

First, I would have pulled him to the side and asked is something going on with him maybe personally that is causing him to act this way maybe he is having problems at home that he is felling helpless with and is using his rank to make him feel better. Second, you are and well within your right as a SSG to put the guy in parade rest so the conversation is one sided and if he doesn't follow the LT could at that point gave him a direct order to comply all of this insubordination would have given you more logs for the article 15 fire. But for that guy I would just write as many counseling statements for each event as I could and then push for the article 15 and pull the stripes off of his chest that will always hurt the most and after about the second or third article 15 I would request chapter for this piece of garbage e5 that doesn't deserve to be a leader or part of the Army.

Response by SFC Dennis Yancy made Feb 23 at 2023 11:47 AM

SFC Dennis Yancy — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:47:42 -0500

Should have written up your meeting with him and LT as a counseling statement and asked for a Article 15. If your 1SG did not support you than off to see CSM and keep going up chain until someone did their job and backed you up. Can not let that behavior stand.

Response by Sgt Mark Harrington made Feb 23 at 2023 2:52 PM

Sgt Mark Harrington — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:52:59 -0500

he still has his stripes?????

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2023 3:50 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:50:49 -0500

You did the right thing. CSM was wrong. Unfortunately the Reserves and Army in general have leadership issues where it's easier to sweep it under the rug instead of addressing the problem.

As a (reserve) E6 engineer platoon sergeant and NCOIC on a mission, I was under direct orders from the commander to enforce safety SOPs. While monitoring operations with the unit XO we observed an E5 grossly in safety violation. I stopped the NCO, who was verbally disrespectful, refused to stand at parade rest, and ultimately shoulder checked me and walked off despite a direct orders to stand fast. This occurred in front of the XO, and was reported to the commander and 1SG. Ultimately not only did nothing happen, but this E5 was given an AAM at end of mission.

Poor leadership like this causes damage to moral and operations by the message it sends to good NCOs trying to do the right thing and to the rank and file who watched it. Unfortunately it's not uncommon in my experience.

Response by Sgt Steven Winans made Feb 23 at 2023 3:58 PM

Sgt Steven Winans — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 15:58:15 -0500

You should have given him a beating.

Response by CPT Leo Coleman made Feb 23 at 2023 8:52 PM

CPT Leo Coleman — Thu, 23 Feb 2023 20:52:11 -0500

What is the "front lean and rest"?

Is it kinda like the "front leaning rest"?

Can you purchase it at "clothing AND sales"?

Response by SFC Rick LaFace made Feb 24 at 2023 10:47 AM

SFC Rick LaFace — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:47:53 -0500

Did you consult with his AGR supervisor first? You have to yell as a range safety because you need to be heard while there's firing going on but I know you know that.
Given that you had to have your Lt present leads me to believe there were prior instances like this?
If your SFC supply sergeant accepted his weapon back into the arms room and allowed that speech that's another problem. Don't they make your Soldiers wait while an armorer inspects them?
He has a supervisor/rater he takes orders from all month until drill weekend.
If you thought you were going to tighten him up like a Soldier you PT with every morning that was a mistake.
He is an NCO junior to you or not. Why did he have to be uncomfortable while you explained professionalism? Doesn't seem very professional to me.
I would have spoke with his everyday supervisor, informed them of his behavior then brought him in and locked his heels while he explained what happened. If his supervisor didn't want to do anything I would get a statement from the Supply Sergeant and typed up a counseling statement requiring him to provide me with a 500-1000 word essay by next drill weekend on the AR600-20 and/or AR600-25. But if his supervisor(s) don't wanna correct young Sergeant Potty mouth I'd hand that to the 1SG for command attention.
I was on an AC/RC (Active to Reserve Component) assignment for 3yrs as a young E5 and it was a horrific experience coming from line units. I couldn't wait to get back to the active Army. PSG's dating their Soldiers and so much more. Everyone on a first name basis even Pv1's...
There's just too much information missing here. But if he thinks he's untouchable that's his mistake not yours. Document everything, if he doesn't follow orders write it down and try to have witnesses present when he displays himself like this. Don't back off but don't go out of your way to see him throw a tantrum. Have NCO meetings and give them all their instructions at the same time. If he needs development it'll be apparent for all his seniors in time. I'd ask to see his counseling packet. If he's your Soldiers only for a weekend a month you have every right to see his initial and quarterly counselings. And yes, seems like you have a Staff Sergeant Major.

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Feb 24 at 2023 11:29 AM

Cpl George Matousek — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 11:29:53 -0500

He should have ended up with an Article 15, the CSM should have backed you up. This never had been allowed in the Marine Corps.

Response by SPC Julio R. made Feb 24 at 2023 5:53 PM

SPC Julio R. — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 17:53:17 -0500

That so called csm is a blue falcon pos. He didn't want to be bothered with pprwrk. He didn't want his pristine record. He was only worried about himself at that point and contradicted himself by wanting the best but not really. He let that pos e5 do what he wanted and got away with the blatent disrespect.
Should have wrote him up.... corrective training didn't work cuz his boy the csm let him slide.
Does that csm even have deployment time and if he did was he a desk jokey fobbit? I was reserves once and they are nothing like active duty and they act it too.
Combat patch goes along way an gives u a diff mindset but ive seen many an officer or non com with no patches an a million years in. They always the ones to look out for an the csm sounds like that.
Not downing the folks that didn't get to or haven't yet gotten theirs but there are those that make excuses not too.

The so called e5 should be private e fuzzy. You didn't ober react you just expected for that sht bag cheese dcking low speed high drap solider to do his job like a proffesional and not sht al over the nco creed.

Get out of that cess pool asap... they don't lile active folksnfor some reason, jealousy or sippin haterade. Todays army is to til tok then kick your butt... its alll about the me generation. THIS GENERATION HAS THE I IN TEAM.

Get out of there and let them and the garbage csm run themselves to the ground....hooah!

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Feb 27 at 2023 8:47 AM

1SG James Kelly — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 08:47:29 -0500

Am I too old school for today's Army?
Yes.

Wait.
Karma will come around and you will be able to court marshal him.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Mar 21 at 2023 8:33 PM

SSG Douglas Shaffer — Tue, 21 Mar 2023 20:33:23 -0400

Just Wow! You I can see how you were going about this in a non-paper pen way and he was still being a jerk, one you should have brought this to the CSM. you go up the ladder PLT SGT, then the 1ST SGT. Now you need to make a paper and pen action, you can always make him do corrective training as long as you are present, take his time away from him. Now if he refuses to do that then you can bring it to the next level of ART. 15 take a stripe away. Remember you have the power of corrective training and remedial training. Corrective training is when you are talking about disrespect and professionalism. Remedial training is when you are talking about performance in his duties such as marksmanship training, cleaning his weapon. Take his time away!

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Apr 4 at 2023 6:28 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:28:05 -0400

I have had many situations similar to this in both the regular army and ARNG. I won't go into great detail, but you did the right thing all the way up to the front leaning rest. Especially since you are dealing with an NCO. Pen to paper is the best way to handle these things. Having the LT there was good, because you have a witness to the situation. I hoped you would have briefed the LT before confronting the Sgt. Chain of command is very important. I would have taken it to the 1st Sgt before going to the CSM. For some reason AGR soldiers sometimes think they are immune to orders given by higher ranking M-day soldiers. I was in HHB I Corp Artillery when I retired. The AGR's tend to be a small group from ranks ranging from E-4 to O-9. During the week they are buddies and unfortunately it bleeds over into the drill weekends. Fortunately, my command was very professional in my last years, and those things were not tolerated in the slightest. My earlier guard years they were. The adjustment from RA to Reserve took some getting used to. You still have the ability to write up that E-5. Those counseling statements go into their permanent record and there isn't a thing the CSM can do about it. If your LT is a good platoon leader, then he should have your back.

Response by CSM John Jimenez made Apr 12 at 2023 2:28 PM

CSM John Jimenez — Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:40 -0400

As a senior NCO I will not tolerate insubordination. This young NCO was clearly wrong and needed to be counseled on the error of his ways. I would also ask the witnesses to provide hand written statements on paper. Prepare a written counseling form with attachments and have it done by the end of battle asssembly weekend or duty. If he wants to act like a private that can be arranged also. If you have to do their job for them, then they are excess and can leave on the next set of orders. After counseling and cleaning his weapon.
CSM retired.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 12 at 2023 3:06 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:06:51 -0400

The CSM failed to see the crux of the matter. The crux of the matter is some f@cking E-5 refuses to do his duty of cleaning his weapon and was disrespectful. Both are intolerable actions. A dirty weapon to a soldier is like a rusty scalpel for a surgeon. Unfathomable. From this quick narrative it sounds like the CSM does not have the brain power to be a good CSM.

Response by SFC Eric Shield made Apr 13 at 2023 1:09 AM

SFC Eric Shield — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:09:45 -0400

Document everything, council him again, and again,etc.. then go for a bar to reenlistment. He really sounds like a dirt bag.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Apr 13 at 2023 1:16 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:16:26 -0400

I did have an individual with one stripe when i was a SSgt decide not to obey a lawful order I gave Him, I removed Him from post, had Him turn His weapon in and informed Him He will not be returning to work unless directed by the Commander or First Sergeant. I made it clear to the Commander and First Sergeant I had no use for Him and didn't want Him back. The Commander not only backed Me but a second stripe He was going to get the orders were cancelled, the one stripe He had was taken all from an Article 15. In addition was not only removed from duty but also the career field. He was the only one in My 22 years of military service that ever did that and no way was I going to put up with it.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made Apr 13 at 2023 8:46 AM

Sgt Michael Clifford — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:46:14 -0400

In my opinion you need a new CSM. If I told one of my troops to clean their weapon and they refused. I would put it in the form of an order and if they refused I would remind them what an order was and the repercussions for disobeying were. If they still refused they would be on report forth with. What did the LT have to say regarding the incident?

If the CSM undermined my authority in front of my troops I would request mast to the CO.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Apr 13 at 2023 1:42 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:42:35 -0400

I don't think you were wrong. I think your buck sergeant was f---ing wrong! As far as I can tell (outside looking in), you handled this the right way. I think CSM Eric B. said what needed to be said here, so I won't rehash it. WHAT I DO KNOW is that there would have been some serious wall-to-wall counseling back in the day!

Response by SPC Priscilla Whitt made Apr 13 at 2023 2:18 PM

SPC Priscilla Whitt — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:18:52 -0400

Wow! It's definitely changed since i was in. I don't think you did anything wrong! Respect was expected and demanded 25 years ago. I hate you were disrespected at all but especially in front of others. Good luck. And thank you for your continued service!

Response by AA Loreen Silvarahawk made Apr 13 at 2023 2:51 PM

AA Loreen Silvarahawk — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:51:24 -0400

I believe you were not wrong in any way. Unfortunately today's service is not like the old days and glad I got out before went to heck in a hand basket.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2023 4:45 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:45:09 -0400

I mean while I don't think you were wrong addressing the situation, that should have been handled prior to going to your CSM. But I obviously wasn't there, nor do I know the solider personally. So you clearly had a reason for your choice of escalation.
"I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for." This part I don't think would actually provide any reinforcement (just my opinion). This sort of reinforcement may make that soldier more difficult to deal with. I know that sounds silly as we're in the military and there should be an expectation of professionalism and listening to your seniors, unless you're given an unlawful order of course. If the guy you described is already acting foolish and not receptive of his senior NCO's then there is a bigger issue there.

I would not tolerate that kind of disrespect and neither should you. My suggestion is to keep a paper trail. As professionally as possible, councel him as needed. Outline what he did, why it is a problem, and what to improve on. I wish I had more to say but I've been fortunate to have some great soldiers. I know there are some soldiers who do not always make it easy. Maybe this soldier needs a bit more one on one mentoring to develop further professionally as an NCO. The AGR comment is absolutely absurd.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Apr 13 at 2023 11:14 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:14:27 -0400

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Was you wrong, it depends on what your goal was. Letting him know he f(*& up and you were pissed, front leaning rest works well. Wanting to convey a message and get results, front leaning rest no so conductive to listening and comprehension. It sounds like the CSM is creating a problem that will eventually make it to being his problem. Karma.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2023 10:08 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 May 2023 10:08:04 -0400

SSG Jason Cramer apparently you mistake just an E9 for a CSM.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made May 29 at 2023 1:15 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Mon, 29 May 2023 13:15:56 -0400

I had an insubordinate subordinate, try to go around me once. He took his issue to my superior who then reamed me for what the E5 said. Didn't hear a word I said. The E-5 then proceeded to act like he got one on me. Even threatened to go over my head a couple of times.
I gave him a counseling statement for not taking the proper steps for conflict resolution and following his NCO chain. I put it on his performance evaluation, then on his NCOER.
My supervisor, upon seeing the NCOER, or maybe one of his higher buddies, tried to get me to change the evaluation. I refered back to the event. His (the E-5) childish response to what happened. I was asked why I didn't say something before, I refered him to the counseling statement, and the quarterly eval. He finally listened to my side of the event, then let it stand. Inever heard anything else on the issue from them. The E-5 stopped his cocky attitude, when he realised he couldn't do anything about it.
Note: I rarely, if ever, gave negative marks, with the exception of PT scores. For me to stand my ground on this provided moreweight in my stance than anything else.

Response by PO2 Gary Riedl made Jun 18 at 2023 10:19 PM

PO2 Gary Riedl — Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:19:39 -0400

I'm still wondering why the CSM sided with the E5? And it doesn't matter if you are old school or not, subordinates should comply. As a side note, the E5 definitely had a personal issue that needed to be dealt with - and I'd like to know what that was about. Someone on the range, should have pulled him aside and asked him what his story was and resolved it then.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Jun 19 at 2023 2:33 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 02:33:39 -0400

ThatE-5 should have been crucified!!

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Jun 19 at 2023 2:58 AM

CPO Kurt Baschab — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 02:58:18 -0400

I do not have enough information to give a really good answer , but I will try.
my First question,
is the SSG in question normally disrespectful ?
is he Normally unprofessional towards other service members that he works with?
if Yes , has it been documented?
if No, I would start, by making sure this incident gets Documented.

I would also ensure it goes in his jacket , but before I did this I would speak to other in his chain of command to find out if this is his normal behavior? or is there something going on that we do not know about

I would have attempted to speak to him , with a witness of course, in order to find out what is going on in his personal life, is he having Marital issues?, is his wife leaving him or Divorcing him? has he suffered a loss of a family member or close friend? etc.
why would I ask these questions?

I know many service members believe we can separate are personal Lives from are work lives, this is a myth. what happens in your personal life will effect your work life, and what happens at work will effect your home life, we are only human

after speaking to him to, find out why he is acting out, to see if I can help him, in any way possible, remember as leaders we are there to educate and mentor, it is easy to mentor the go getter, a little harder with the I just here guy, even harder with the young adult walking the fine line, but that the one you should mentor, who needs your help
so after speaking to him that will determine my next course of action,
I might just send him to speak to someone, or take discipline action or something in between
it is all determined by what I find out,
this will determine my next course of action , do not misunderstand no matter what he will clean his weapon and give a public apology to his fellow NCO , no matter what. I do not care if I had to sit there with him all night .
his actions will determine what type of paperwork, or if any would be involved at all.
we all have bad days , one bad day should not ruin us

as for the action of the CSM,

I would as politely and respectfully as possible, ask that the CSM to please educate me, on his decision to support a Júnior enlisted member who not only disrespected every Officer, Senior enlisted personal, he also disrespected the CO & CSM himself.
so why is he defending him?
I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal you are the Direct Representative and voice of the command, of the CO, AND CSM.

by allowing this Junior enlisted to disrespect every senior enlisted and junior officer he is disrespecting the CO, and CSM, because Leadership start at the top. every single enlisted member and junior officers are a direct reflection of the CO and CSM leadership.

So I would Ask the CSM to please educate me on his reasoning , because one day I hope to be in his position, so I need to understand why he is risking Good order and discipline under his command
By protecting this bad junior enlisted person . what does the CSM know that I do not?

I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal on scene I am the direct Representative of the CO, and CSM, so when I SPEAK, and give a lawful order it is the same as if that order has come from the CO or the CSM himself , so I need to know why he is undermining his own command authority.

as the Senior enlisted member you are speaking for the CO AND CSM , EVERYTHING WE SAY AND DO IS A DIRECT REFLECTION OF THE CO AND CSM. if you are in there command every word and order you give is as if it is coming directly from the CO & CSM .

When this Junior enlisted Member was purposely disrespecting every Officer & senior enlisted member , he was also spitting in the CO & CSM FACE.

So explain to the CSM, that one day you hope to be a CSM, in a leadership position, so I would really like to understand his reasoning, as to why he would purposely sided with the Junior enlisted member who not only disrespected every senior enlisted and officer in his command while encourage the junior enlisted personal to start disobeying all lawful orders

make no mistake, other junior enlisted will start testing his command
I need to understand why he would risk this.

with the CSM allowing this junior enlisted personal to Openly be Disrespectful to every Senior enlisted person and Júnior officer he meets, he is showing the commands poor leadership style and it wont be long before other junior enlisted start testing the command .

everyone needs to remember leadership starts at the very top , if your command is full of dirtbags, or go getters , it is a direct refection upon the CO and his CSM leadership style it really is that simple.

so as a future CSM, I would want to know his reasoning, he could have a very valid reason , so I like to know so I can learn , he could have a piss poor reason, I need to know that also, it will help me understand his leadership style , is it something I want to instill in my leadership style, or is it something I never want to use.
this is why you have to ask, we never stop learning

Response by SGM Edward Sullivan made Jun 19 at 2023 8:01 AM

SGM Edward Sullivan — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 08:01:59 -0400

This old SGM just got the ass. The NG and AR have let Standards go to hell. This WOKE BS that has permeated DOD has got to stop ASAP or we will NEVER beat another adversary. I will not call that CSM my Brother because he is nothing but a REMF POS!

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Jun 19 at 2023 5:04 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:04:34 -0400

This E5 is wrong with his Bad Attitude, the CSM is wrong for not siding with you, get the others to file a COMPLAINT and hand it over to CSM and he doesn’t do anything at that point, then it shows the CSM has NO confidence in his NCO’s, and he should resign or retire, he is not a True Leader or wants to set the example of a Leader and siding with E5 just makes my point

Response by SGT Jd Cox made Jun 19 at 2023 7:58 PM

SGT Jd Cox — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 19:58:53 -0400

I think you probably should have given the First shirt the opportunity to resolve it. It is skipping the chain of command, and might bring the 1st Sgt. down on you for doing so. I hate to sound old, but back in my day, that would have ended up in a wall to wall counseling session.

Response by SGT Thomas Field made Jun 19 at 2023 8:29 PM

SGT Thomas Field — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 20:29:31 -0400

Fuck that you were as right as right could be!

Response by TSgt Dave Beem made Jun 20 at 2023 1:51 AM

TSgt Dave Beem — Tue, 20 Jun 2023 01:51:11 -0400

Well, back when I was in your position, that trip out in to the woods would have involved some different "therapies", I think. Today, "Old School" isn't what it was when I was in. I still have a few knots in my noggin from some "remedial training myself. However, today that approach won't work.

The problem is that with today's "kinder, gentler" force, you have to figure out what CAUSED this behavior. Was this NCO normally belligerent? Or was he usually a normal, decent NCO? I had many times when my "Children" acted out because of a fight with a spouse or significant other or they had a financial bombshell, sick kid, you name it. It sounds like this guy was pissed off, not at you, not even at the folks on the range.

I think your superiors did you a disservice as well, however. CSM should have had your back. Recommendations to involve the top? Sure, if he was available. But this also needed to be corrected on the spot. You did the right thing, but as was stated below, there may have been a better way to handle it. However, that being said, you were the "Johnny on the spot" and did what you thought was right. I'm with CSM Biggs and I'm sure his first instinct would have been to apply some seriously old school attitude adjustment. However, like I said, in today's world you're expected to throw paper instead.

The time I remember most is during basic at Ft Knox. I was a military academy 4 year high school graduate. It was July, 100 degrees, 97% humidity., I named Kentucky the Stagnant State. I had driven from Nebraska to Ft Knox for Basic. One morning I went out to my car just to check on it, it was gone. The cops had towed it due to no base sticker and an expired temp permit. I was furious (it was a 69 GTO Ram Air IV).

I was sick of crawling thru sawdust that of course managed to get inside everything. Sick of the flies, sick of basic training, and very pissed off at life in general And it was obstacle course day. I got snagged in the wire. Cut, pissed off. Our DI, one SSgt Ballog, crawled under the wire, dragged me out by my feet and proceeded to ream me a new one. I got belligerent. He and the assistant DI took me out into the woods and gave me an attitude adjustment with EXTREME prejudice. Not a mark on me that you could see. That one incident taught me more about how to control my temper than any amount of paper would have. Having 4 years of ROTC behind me I was pretty indignant to begin with about having to go thru basic in the first place...I could field strip almost any rifle from an M1 Garand or a .303 Enfield up to an M14 or 16 blindfolded and I could out shoot anyone I came across on the range, including the instructors. Full of it, I was.

Being taken down a peg is what I needed. Now the amazing part? SSgt Ballog let me vent first..I didn't yell, but i certainly vented. I was so mad I didn't care. THEN my "re-education" started. Oddly enough, he got my car back from the impound lot too. I did get a bit of revenge on him during a senatorial firepower demonstration and a porta potti that somehow got chained shut and bounced down a hill while the tanks were firing...But that's another story.

Bottom line is that what worked for the REALLY old school guys can't be done today. But sometimes, you WILL WISH with all your heart it was still legal.

I earned every bit of what I got. Today, however, you wind up having to figure out WHY this NCO copped an attitude. I'm honestly surprised the CSM didn't pick up on this. He SHOULD have the experience in dealing with "Kids acting out". That's what it sounds like to me, more than anything else. You didn't mention if you knew this NCO very well or if he was a complete stranger either.

My only recommendation is that if you get stuck in this situation again, have someone senior come over and witness the conduct first. If you need an officer and have the time, have your SENIOR go fetch him. There are limits to your temper as well..having someone there with you will help. This is one of the reasons why I'm glad I retired in 2007. I got sick of throwing paper at someone who could care less about it. Some folks only know force. Others know how to play the game extremely well.

I don't normally post here anymore. You'll find my last post was a LONG time ago. But I thought this one time I'd chime in, because it IS a huge problem and it is something that needs to be addressed from the top down. Someday that NCO might be right next to you in the field, for real. That weapon jams or misfeeds due to his lack of care, and it might cost you BOTH the ultimate price. Sure, today you were on a range and he was in a foul mood. Tomorrow, however, you might be in a far different place. That is what professionalism is all about.

From what I saw over a 26 year career in two services is that paper only fixes problems for the people who were raised right and CARE about it. Naked force is the only cure that seems to work. Many of those kids grew up in tough neighborhoods where only strength and power are respected. I remember getting an education from a police officer as well. No ticket, no fine, lots of very sore ribs. A very professional job, believe me. I was the YOUNGEST kid ever to get arrested by the FBI that I've ever heard of..8 years old. That cop worked me over when I was 16, for drag racing that SAME GTO.
I was, I think, a typical kid of a broken household of my generation. I really do think that being "taken out behind the woodshed" saved more careers than any amount of paperwork ever did. I even risked my career a few times and saved a few kids who were arrowing straight over the base gate. The funny thing is, it was never reported and every one of them thanked me for it and several outranked me by the time I retired (I did not WANT to be an E7, and I was quite happy doing what I did best in either service).

One of the bad things today, is that UP or OUT policy. To me, if a guy is happy being a grunt, or a tank driver, or a squad leader and he's a subject matter expert and WANTS to remain a squad leader and doesn't mind not getting promoted, then he should be allowed to stay. This is just my opinion, but especially in the technical fields, I think it is essential. Not every good squad leader makes a good Platoon Sergeant. Not every good platoon sergeant will make a good SEA. Not ever Spec 4 wants to lead his shop. I don't believe in promoting to someone's level of incompetence.

Take a look at the records of the talking heads on TV today. This Institute for the Study of War, that nobody ever heard of before Ukraine. Go look up those officer's records. Then go ask some folks who were on the line as captains and majors and CSM's who had to deal with them. If they tell the truth, you'll understand why I have zero respect for any of them. Did we win Iraq? Afghanistan? No, and those generals were in charge. Our senior leadership is far too political today. That is a shame. I think we need to go back to basics. I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with today's recruits in general. However, after raising 5 kids (my son is the youngest at 21 and none of them went into any service), I can tell you that times have changed and you need a radically different approach to understand them. Many came from totally undisciplined homes or single parent homes. They may be lazy, they may be overweight, and compared to when I came in, they are far more intelligent. Possibly TOO intelligent in many ways.

You can always tell the kids who were "raised right". Yes sir and No Ma'm come easily to them. However, one thing many of them never learned was self discipline. I firmly believe that self discipline comes from avoiding discipline. WHICH is why this post is so long. I had no self discipline. I was, in fact "Little Lord Fauntleroy" (go look that up for you folks who have never heard of it). I was an only kid, adopted to save a failing, sterile marriage. Cost my folks 250 bucks to adopt me. They shouldn't have been allowed to adopt a dog.

I was angry, confused, and had a redwood tree for a chip on my shoulder. Thanks to a few good police officers, NCO's and line officers, who took an interest in me, I got turned around (and yes, the Academy helped). I was never real good at taking orders, but I was an innovator in an era of butt kissers and I got a lot of respect from my own troops for ensuring that the buck stopped with me going both ways. Any officer or anyone else who tried to discipline my troops got it with both barrels.

Your troops don't have to love you, nor like you, but they damned well need to respect you. That respect HAS to be earned. I was lucky enough during the start of my career to have folks above me who were Vietnam Vets. That staff sergeant named Ballog? He was 82nd, served five consecutive tours in Vietnam. Short guy, not all that muscular. But he could take you apart. "Tough as nails" comes to mind. But by the end of that basic training tour, we all had a huge amount of respect for the man and probably would have followed him thru hell. That this impression this man made on us, over 40 years ago, still remains shows what an IMPACT that man had. One thing about him, he never held a grudge..though I imagine he still remembers that porta potti thing...lol

But just remember that MY old school days are long gone, as is the country I served. There are no more "Code Reds". No more discipline from your peers with the green wool sock and a bar of ivory soap. There is a huge difference between humiliation and discipline. I always tried to keep discipline off the books as much as possible. NOT just because of the amount of documentation and time.

The folks whose careers I saved WANTED the help. Like I said, most of the folks who worked for me were on their way out. But I will tell you that not a one of them didn't have a place to go to for holiday dinners either. Some I had to force out. MOUNTAINS of paperwork. I had a reputation as a total prick. But those who worked for me ALL said I was completely the opposite of my reputation. I didn't just train, I TAUGHT. I stood up to anyone who tried to mess with them. I wound up losing decorations for myself over this..when I wouldn't mark someone down because other people had zero documentation of any offense. I rated them on how they worked for ME. I had a base commander try to intervene in a performance report once. He literally ORDERED me to change my rating. I refused. "Sir, that's why you have a NON CONCUR block. Feel free to use it". And watched my own report get literally cut in half. So be it.

I was never so happy than when one of my "Kids" got promoted past me. I had several do the Mustang thing and I was always the one who got that coin for a first salute. I gave them credit for their ideas and if those ideas backfired I took the blame, not them. Never ONCE did I take credit for something I didn't originate and even then, my "kids" got the credit if it worked. Even if it WAS my idea. I think the most rewarding thing for a real leader is watching his troops succeed. It was for me at least. I could have cared less for awards & Decs for myself. For my troops yes, for me? Couldn't care less. I never had a ME wall and never will. No shadow box for retirement, not even a retirement certificate. I simply served my country and never asked nor needed recognition for it. But that was back then. Now you folks have a far harder row to hoe.

To this day I run into folks in the commissary who come up and thank me for what I did for them. Half the time I have no clue who they are..but for some reason they remember me. I'm not perfect never was nor wanted to be a saint. Just remember that "Every Saint has a past, and every sinner has a future". As NCO's, we're in the business of raising Saints, in many ways. While helping those entrusted to us to redeem their sins. While I never agreed with the "whole person concept" and never will, after traveling the world and seeing both wonderful humanity and the evil humanity visits upon itself, I can state that certain parts of that philosophy aren't a bad thing. Americans are HORRIBLY provincial. The folks who have gone out and seen the world (which is most servicemen in this day and age of wearing 2 or more hats), the more aware of the world you become. Less ignorant of other cultures and ideas. When I was in, they were actively LOOKING for innovators, and my own performance reports prove that I made a difference.

Most kids today think they will NEVER make a difference and that is wrong. The key is leading them to the understanding that they CAN make a difference. I scored high 90's on my ASVAB. In all but one, administration. That was a 60. My son took his and had to retake it 3 times. Because he got high 90s every single time. Last time he had the proctor over his shoulder for the entire test. Again, high 90's. He was grossly offended that they thought he was cheating. Never given an apology for doubting his word. He steadfastly refuses to join the colors over that. He's not a polymath by any means, but he's a smart sharp kid whose dad encouraged him to read and research (his mom died in 2009 at 40, no warning, from brain cancer. He was just 8. Remember the curse of your parents. "I hope you have one JUST LIKE YOU!". I sure did. He finally moved out of the house about 4 months ago. Moved in with his stepsister and her family. She's always telling me "He won't stop being YOU, dad!" He is no more suited to military life than I was..if he ever joins, it wil be because HE wanted to. Not because I pressured him into it (though I do think it would be just as good for him as it was for me, but HE needs to be taken down a few pegs too.

I wish all of you a great 4th of July. My birthday as well. Take time over that holiday to think about the kind of leader you are. Write down your strengths and weaknesses and have a few compatriots do the same. It can be rather eye opening. Keep an open mind. Do NOT get defensive over what they write, nor offended. You may be extremely surprised at what you THINK your strengths are versus what others see in you. A lot of times we leaders lose sight of what is important. There is a far distance between being a subject matter expert and being infallible. With today's "kids" we need to explain things far more thoroughly than we did back when I was a young man. Used to be, orders were orders and not to be questioned. I ALWAYS asked for questions and asked them of my superiors. I saved my services over a million dollars a year every single year I was in, more or less.

Even on something as simple as movement to contact practice. Let them ask the questions. The stupidest question is the one you fail to ask. Let them make mistakes. That's how we learn, after all.

I know this got off the topic here, but after surviving two cancers, I felt it was time to throw some hard earned experience out there. Take it for what it is worth. Just remember that the folks under you grew up in a VERY different world from what you, as a mid level NCO, grew up in. My world, MY United States that I grew up in was gone by 1990 or so. The world YOU grew up in is gone as well. "Kids" today are confronted with problems we never ever had to face. My son is terrified of a nuclear exchange. He won't ask a woman out on a date for fear of being arrested for harassment. You must remember that today's "Kids" face pressures that didn't even really EXIST when we were kids. As supervisors and leaders, you will face MANY issues I never had to face. Whatever happens, never be afraid to enforce the rules. Guard your honor and integrity. There may come a time when that's all you own, aside from the shirt on your back. These "kids" NEED your life experience. Not just discipline, but EXPERIENCE. The world today IS a very difficult, if not overwhelming place. Many folks under 25 years old are still trying to figure out who they are, behind all the bluster and bravado.

Some of us never do. While your "toolbox" is missing some of the tools I mentioned today, you can find other tools to replace it (I hope). Just remember that in this day and age of very low recruitment, keeping good people IN our armed forces is critical. NOW you see the fallacy behind the "up or out" philosophy. Some folks are just not leadership material. But that doesn't mean they are useless. Whether we, as NCO's can find a way to combat that fallacy, is unknown. But I think our retention figures would be way up IF they had that option. The idea is worth exploring. As for this example, Learn from it. This isn't a unique problem. Standards are standards, after all. But the idea of a "one mistake" armed force is anathema to me. People have bad days, and they make mistakes. OUR job is to ensure that they learn from them and sometimes, we have to be a parent or an adult as well as a leader and mentor. No different from having kids of your own.

But ALWAYS remember that some people are just bad. Nothing that you can do will change that person. Just like an alcoholic or drug abuser..the only way they will reform is if they WANT to. If they're a super hard case, do the paperwork and get them out the door. Just remember that there are causes for EVERY behavior. We can't fix all of them, we can't prevent them. But we can mitigate them sometimes. Kids today come up in a world far different from the one we grew up in What worked on US may not work at all or might even backfire if used today.

One thing I REALLY recommend if you can swing it is to go sit in a high school classroom for a day if you can arrange it. Once you see it, you might understand them better when they become your problem...

thanks for reading, THAN YOU ALL FOR YOUR SERVICE and have a GREAT Fourth Of July when it gets here. Take time to remember. Visit a VA hospital. Help out with a community project if you can.
But remember what made this country great. In coming weeks, months and years you may resent some things that are happening. Never forget that we are here to serve our country. Those who solely want to serve themselves have no place here.

Response by SFC James High made Jun 21 at 2023 10:21 AM

SFC James High — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:21:16 -0400

In my opinion no Soldier should ever be put in the front leaning rest position outside of a school environment. Especially an NCO no matter what the infraction is. Also, A blatant case of insubordination is something punished by a "Letter of Counseling" or Article 15. You will never accomplish anything by humiliating a Soldier regardless of their offense or rank. Wanting to put someone in that position is just a show of power and it is not taken very well by professionals!

Response by SrA Hilbert Steiner made Jun 21 at 2023 12:09 PM

SrA Hilbert Steiner — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:09:15 -0400

Insubordination at the very least. I'm amazed at the way the Military has changed since I Served.

Response by SPC Tommy Helton made Jun 21 at 2023 3:04 PM

SPC Tommy Helton — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:04:31 -0400

This guy has friends, and is probably on the fast track to E-9. The reserves are full of people, who didn’t earn, or deserve their rank. It’s like a fraternity, this guy is gonna outrank you, most likely. I’d just try to let it go, and let the LT punish people. You don’t want them as enemies

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2023 8:36 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 08:36:41 -0400

Nope you were not it’s sad to see that you were not backed up in this situation

Response by SGT Tara Caldwell made Jun 22 at 2023 8:46 AM

SGT Tara Caldwell — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 08:46:56 -0400

In my opinion, the SGT absolutely 100% wrong.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Jun 22 at 2023 11:52 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 11:52:15 -0400

HUH....Regulations......
I Think I'd Just HAVE To Stand Him On His Head & POUND Him Into The Ground,
Until All You'd See, Are The Soles Of 2 Brogans Sticking Up Just Below The Grass Line.
WTF Is THAT About? ~ Mouthing Off To A Superior & STILL Having Teeth Remaining In His Mouth?
SURE Is Different Now Than When Guys MY Age Were Serving....
1961 - 1965, The Years Of The Dinosaur Killers

Response by MSG Donna Dewar made Jun 22 at 2023 1:06 PM

MSG Donna Dewar — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 13:06:22 -0400

I don't think you were wrong. It is his responsibility to handle his own professionalism and weapon correctly and with appropriate tack and respect. You probably are too old school for today's Army as we all are. They have defeated all the values and integrity.

Response by SFC Lynn Santosuosso made Jul 5 at 2023 10:53 AM

SFC Lynn Santosuosso — Wed, 05 Jul 2023 10:53:22 -0400

You were not wrong at all!! As an AGR he should be leading by example and not thinking he was better than a reservist. Most reservists do plenty of active duty time prior to go into the reserves. As a Jr. NCO he disrespected his personal responsibility to clean the weapon he used, he disrespected his fellow soldiers, his St. NCO’s, as well as stomping all over his oath! That CSM was wrong on so many levels that it is not funny!!
If that E-5 pulled that crap as a civilian he would have been fired.
In my experience, it sounds like this E-5 AGR must be in good favor with some brass or something. His evaluation should definitely reflect his insulance toward his higher command.
I am afraid that CSM just created more of a monster.
If I remember correctly, the Senior civilian in the reserve unit contributes to the AGR’s evaluation. I would talk to that individual about your concerns regarding the E-5’s insubordinate attitude.

Response by SPC Jared Robbins made Jul 31 at 2023 11:20 AM

SPC Jared Robbins — Mon, 31 Jul 2023 11:20:17 -0400

No SSG, I don’t believe you were out of line. His conduct was highly unprofessional for his rank, which he clearly doesn’t deserve.

I would have taken him before the 1SG, rather than go before the CSM, but that’s just me. I wouldn’t want my 1SG to feel snubbed in the situation.

Response by SPC Jared Robbins made Jul 31 at 2023 12:15 PM

SPC Jared Robbins — Mon, 31 Jul 2023 12:15:15 -0400

Part of me wonders if the CSM and this shitsquirt E5 have rapport with each other, because this demonstrates a weak-wrist or favoritism.

The only time I’ve ever seen this sort of preferential treatment is when either there was a prior relationship, or if both parties were African American. This was NOT always the case with the latter, but it WAS the case in one instance I was witness to.

Response by A1C Melanie MacDonald made Aug 1 at 2023 5:19 PM

A1C Melanie MacDonald — Tue, 01 Aug 2023 17:19:41 -0400

I think the CSM needs his head examined. Is this what our military has come to? Disrespectful children? Because that’s what this soldier is behaving like. And if the CSM “holds his AGR guys at a higher standard” I don’t blame you for being upset. His standards are with really low or he isn’t taking his job seriously. I’m sorry but this poses ME off and I want even there. No one deserves this kind of disrespect. I would have waited until after the correction, say, pushups etc to go to the CSM if it didn’t work, but honestly I don’t know that it would have mattered

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2023 11:15 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Aug 2023 23:15:30 -0400

Different perspective here.
First, Are you this Soldier's first line supervisor, Squad leader, or Platoon Sergeant? If you aren't, what were you doing?
If you are in the Soldier's chain start by trying to take your Soldier's side. Ive worked a thousand ranges- seriously it was basicly my job for a couple years way back when. If I had a counseling statement for every time I rubbed someone wrong on the range I'd have a lot of paper.
A lot of people get called out for safety or something stupid on the range and get their egos bruised and their first response is "he was being disrespectful to me". Its a human reaction to embarrassment.
That, and sometimes, range days suck. People get hot -or cold- irritable, hungry, bruised egos from poor performance. Range safety's get worn down by stupid people with guns failing to follow simple instructions and being generally cranky.
So a lot of people arent always their best selves. Both sides of the story, maybe even you.
So I'll presume this Sgt was trying to do the right things, and getting beat up all day by people who out rank him treating him less than their best- and trust me I'm not excusing his overall behavior, but here comes SSG You, all fired up to give him an ass chewing without even asking him his side of the story. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership. From you. So lead. And chewing ass is not leading.
I ask you to recognize the human side of the leadership challenge, apply some empathy. Tell this Sgt you are trying to be on his side and want to know what was going on- not based on what a bunch of other people have told you- but by what he can tell you himself. He may actually admit he was worn out, and frustrated, and wasnt doing a great job. You can work with that.
Leave the Ograde out of it. If you need another person to have this talk, get another Soldier, maybe another E5 that he trusts. Keep NCO business as NCO business. Maybe he just needs you to help with how to be an effective range cadre without pissing in everyone's cheerios- so help him learn that.
Again, I'm not excusing all the behavior, but I suspect there's more to it than the side of the story you were operating on. Show the Soldier some empathy, demonstrate you've got his back- even when he's being an ass- and you might be surprised by the performance this Soldier will give you in the future.
Thats my 4 cents worth. I hope this helps.
Now, for everyone that is going to jump in talking about softer gentler Army, and I'm not old school enough, blah blah, the Army has been my career for nearly 32 years. I was a Senior NCO before becoming a Warrant. Ive been Regular Active, Regular Reserve, and AGR. No ass chewing without asking my side of the story ever made me perform better or trust my leadership. No ass chewing I ever gave out ever resulted in a Soldier trusting me more or performing better for me. Chewing ass doesn't fix mistakes or attitudes. Building trust and helping people learn from their dumbass mistakes does.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2023 2:35 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 02:35:12 -0400

I’d take that as high as it needs to go.

That’s a toxic CSM who doesn’t deserve the star.

This is typically not officer’s business—-but with an AGR coddled by a CSM…….you’re going to have to do something.
Document everything. Even if he doesn’t sign.

If you don’t- you’ll look like the incompetent one when you try to give him a needs improvement.

I was a career AGR—this is horse crap.

Response by SrA George Nahm made Aug 2 at 2023 4:47 PM

SrA George Nahm — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 16:47:27 -0400

No, you were not wrong. The CSM was out of this mind. When I was in (USAF) and an E-5, you were an NCO. The lower ranks had to look up to you and respect you for what you had accomplished to get the rank. You never talked back to an officer or a senior NCO. If you did there would be any Article 15 written up and you would be up in front of the 1st SGT or the commander. Some people lost at least 1 ratting and pay because of it. I guess that the NEW military is different than the time I served (1969-1973).

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Aug 2 at 2023 10:47 PM

SPC Daniel Rankin — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 22:47:11 -0400

No you are not too old for today's Army, that nco is not prepared for war. If he does not keep his weapon combat ready then when he does go to war he will be sorry and that weapon will blow up in his face. The CSM should have understood this and sided with you. He was wrong. You did not move too fast, discipline in the military is a necessary thing, and if you do not get a handle on things like this it can escalate. It would have been better for him to get down and do his leaning position then be dead one day because he refused to follow orders. A round does not know the difference between those who understand this and those who do. One day he is going to wish he had listened.

Response by Sgt Russell Cherry made Aug 3 at 2023 8:55 AM

Sgt Russell Cherry — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 08:55:29 -0400

That's the army for you.

Response by SPC Wil Whalen made Aug 3 at 2023 9:03 AM

SPC Wil Whalen — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 09:03:14 -0400

I was in the Army in the late 80s and early 90s and I don't remember not cleaning my weapon after the range was ever an option. You couldn't be released for the day until it had been inspected and locked up. This E5 should learn how to respect his chain of command. Also, the CSM siding with him is beyond ridiculous and he should have never done that in front of him. How do you side with an insubordinate E5 who won't clean his weapon? It's imperative to keep weapons clean so they fire correctly when needed. I think that CSM needs a good kick in the ass and that E5 needs a blanket party. Just kidding, blanket parties were banned before I joined.

Response by LT William Pellegrini made Aug 3 at 2023 2:33 PM

LT William Pellegrini — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:33:29 -0400

Your CSM was wrong. Having spent over 10 years in the USN I have a real respect for those who earn the rank of E-7 or above. You were correct. But the behavior of this man was way beyond the place where he would be given the benefit of the doubt. I think I personally would have asked him if he wanted to continue as a member of the United States Army Reserve? I might have also asked some questions to see if he was high on something, or if he was experiencing some catastrophe at home. But when you get right down to it, your CMS was wrong. Maybe you should have moved this higher up the chain? Your call.

Response by SPC Sean Bayliss made Aug 4 at 2023 9:34 AM

SPC Sean Bayliss — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 09:34:32 -0400

Time for his NCOR to reflect his actions. Including your CSM. I was active duty, we didn't act like this. If we did, a company grade article 15 was headed our way. Army reserve, or active, both are U.S. Army. There is a standard for a reason, and if you don't hold to those standards, there is no reason to have them.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2023 11:32 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 11:32:56 -0400

While AGR’s are full timers and active duty. They still have to follow rank. And the correct time to deal with disrespect of a higher rank. Is the moment it happens. And if the E-5 makes that disrespect in public the the disaplinary action comes in public. The CSM gave the E-5 cart blanch to do it agian. So I guess the CSM might have been worried about his pay getting mishandled and late.out of resentment. Just think out loud on that one. If you have to deal with this individual again I would suggest you always have a witness going forward. It’s not the Army or Army guard I was in. Good luck.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2023 11:35 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 11:35:57 -0400

Oh yeah I forgot one important thing. I would have let that E-5 know no one is going to clean his weapon for him. And no one is getting dismissed or go home till he cleans his weapon.

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Aug 4 at 2023 1:36 PM

Cpl George Matousek — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 13:36:10 -0400

No, you were correct the CSM was totally wrong. It should have went to the CO on charges. Semper Fi

Response by MSG Tony Hughes made Aug 5 at 2023 3:47 PM

MSG Tony Hughes — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 15:47:41 -0400

Damn, sounds like your CSM is a pussy, your LT sounds good. The E5 in question better be thanking the good Lord that he didnt pull that shit on active duty status, he would of busted down to E I Owe you one

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Aug 5 at 2023 8:58 PM

PO3 Rod Arnold — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 20:58:41 -0400

Your CSM was in the wrong!

Response by SPC Julio R. made Aug 7 at 2023 1:20 PM

SPC Julio R. — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 13:20:05 -0400

That so called nco or sht bag blue falcon needs be written up. Go over that garbage csm too, he an that nco prob banging each other while commending themselves. Pencil whip gis behind out the service. Just hurry up and wait.
Telling you or a tually being un tactful is unprofessional. I wouldnt take amy orders from that pos.
Csm was way wrong just as bad as sgt tommy tuff nuts. I know lts now days come straighy putta preschool school him or her on what that pos did and have him sign the counseling statement....

Punish him or make him a e3.....

Response by SSG Paul Carrier made Aug 20 at 2023 10:14 PM

SSG Paul Carrier — Sun, 20 Aug 2023 22:14:55 -0400

While I might not have put him in the front leaning rest he surely would have been at parade rest as he got a talking to. The CSM should have backed you up.
If he is allowing the AGR to get away with such behavior he isn't holding them to any standard, at all.

Response by SGT James Hunsinger made Sep 3 at 2023 2:57 PM

SGT James Hunsinger — Sun, 03 Sep 2023 14:57:27 -0400

As others have stated, pen to paper for an NCO, they should know better. So should a Specialist in my opinion but there is no excuse for an NCO to act that unprofessional under any circumstances. They are held to a higher standard than lower enlisted for a reason. Reserve, National Guard, Active Guard and Reserve or Active Duty shouldn't matter. An NCO is an NCO. My father was a very highly regarded AGR Chief Warrant who held himself to a very high level of professionalism and expected the same of all of his subordinates no matter what component they came from.

I think, there were only two courses of action you could have effectively taken. First take that NCO up the chain of command with counseling papers in hand but I personally believe going to the command for an Article-15 would have been what this NCO needed. Or perhaps I would have given him a research project on the professionalism of the non-commissioned officer and the importance of it to the maintenance of discipline within the U.S. Army. Failure to satisfactorily complete the corrective action assignment and then a trip to the commander with the request of an Article-15. No one likes losing money or time. Of course you could go to battalion level and take his NCO status away from him since he doesn't want to act like one. The behavior you described would have been grounds for summary execution of that NCO when I was active duty. Maybe times were different and things have changed.

Oh, by the way, it's "front leaning rest position". Not trying to call you out or embarrass you but you seem like someone who wants to be professional. Lower enlisted will question your intelligence and lose respect for you if you say this. I understand that it often sounds like "front lean and rest" depending on who's saying it. Just trying to help you out.

Response by 1SG Mike Turnipseed made Sep 4 at 2023 12:31 AM

1SG Mike Turnipseed — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 00:31:07 -0400

No place for this from an AGR soldier, the CSM should just retire and I would just add that if you are his Senior you should be in his rating chain for the Change of rater NCO he is due, counsel him appropriately and hit the Values. Done.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Sep 4 at 2023 1:24 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 13:24:36 -0400

Now that we read one side of the story, and are now trying to piece it together, let us step back. Statement should have been written by the range NCO and the SFC Supply Sergeant. They should have elevated it to your CO. You should have been made aware of the situation. What it a "bad day" or was it a "pissed out" soldier? At a range SAFETY is paramount!!!!! Any action should be reported to the CO through the range OIC. That did you do wrong; if anything, it was not written in the posting. Being promoted tells me two things [1] the soldier was not a "scum bag" or [2] the soldier had connections.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2023 4:25 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 16:25:04 -0400

I don’t know why my email sends me to posts almost a year old but my opinion. Genuinly no below a SFC gives a fuck about order or regs anymore. Covid, TikTok and Weak parents along with the worst politics we’ve had in 20 years have completely ruined the military. The military needs people more than the people need a military looks like.

Response by SPC James Fitzpatrick made Sep 8 at 2023 3:54 PM

SPC James Fitzpatrick — Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:54:48 -0400

Sorry, sorry state the Army has come to. Back in THE DAY, that guy would be in the stockade in a blink!

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Sep 8 at 2023 4:40 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:40:35 -0400

This is pretty messed up. From the SGT and especially the CSM. Hopefully the CSM sided with the SGT behind closed doors but still messed up. Sometimes AGR soldiers think they're above their pay grade because they're AGR and have a different standard. It's pretty crazy but I've seen it more times than one.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2023 5:04 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:04:44 -0400

The military is not the appropriate career path for individuals who refuse to execute the lawfully directed orders of their senior NCO’s. Your CSM was wrong in correcting you in front of the SGT, he has diminished your ability to effectively lead and direct your subordinates. I am more than certain that your E-5 was more than happy to share with his buddies on how you got corrected by the CSM. Ways to move forward, learn from the poor example your CSM provided and ensure that you don’t repeat those very mistakes.

Response by SPC Vernon Trexler made Sep 10 at 2023 5:58 PM

SPC Vernon Trexler — Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:58:08 -0400

that crap would not have been tolerated when I was in.respect...that's a no brainer

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2023 7:59 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Sep 2023 19:59:56 -0400

Doesn't the CSM have a superior? Couldn't you talk with this person about the incident and how the CSM handled things? especially the dressing down in front of the E-5 that you received? it's inappropriateness?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2023 12:18 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Sep 2023 00:18:44 -0400

In my experience most AGR soldiers think they are untouchable. Hell they hold NCO positions and 99% of the time they don't even work with in their platoon. They forget they have positions in a platoon and they should train and work within that platoon while at drill not sitting at their desk like it's a weekday. Your not wrong the CSM is wrong if he felt u were unprofessional or out of line he should have pulled you aside

Response by SFC William Sutherland III made Sep 21 at 2023 1:06 PM

SFC William Sutherland III — Thu, 21 Sep 2023 13:06:31 -0400

As a Senior Platoon Leader, I generally would side with you. But since your CSM noted this behavior in front of the soldier, I would have told the CSM later that this decision grossly undercut yours. As an E7 or even MSG, you are leading those soldiers, and discipline is destroyed by him siding on behalf of the other. Even if he did side with that E5, it should have been between the two of you.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Oct 1 at 2023 2:09 AM

SFC Byron Perry — Sun, 01 Oct 2023 02:09:39 -0400

You have a poor chain of command.

Response by SP5 Michael Lewis made Oct 23 at 2023 12:21 PM

SP5 Michael Lewis — Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:21:13 -0400

Absolutely you were not wrong. It sounds like the service member should not have even been in the military. I had to do a lot of things that I might not wanted to do, but in the military, I called it ODAA (other duties as assigned). That is just the way it was and hopefully still is. There are some in the military that are not cut out for service. For the good of the service, they should be discharged. If they did nothing wrong, incompatible, it should be honorable, (with some of the things listed in the problem above) he should have been discharged under other than honorable! Just my opinion. If you don't have cohesiveness, then you have troublecoming!

Response by A1C Beverly Briscoe made Oct 28 at 2023 12:08 PM

A1C Beverly Briscoe — Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:08:30 -0400

I believe you did the right thing by having someone else with you when you approached the individual who was wrong for disrespecting anyone. The CSM was wrong in every way, and that individual should not have been promoted. The CSM owes you a huge apology.

Response by SSG Michael Schneider made Oct 30 at 2023 2:06 PM

SSG Michael Schneider — Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:06:26 -0400

My, my how the Army has changed! And NOT for the best! If that incident had occurred back in my day as his CSM he would have been given a choice of 1: Article 15 or, take this ass kicking I'm going to administer plus, do what you are told to do!

Response by SPC Paul Gooch made Oct 30 at 2023 2:55 PM

SPC Paul Gooch — Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:55:40 -0400

The work ethic is no where it used to be. According to federal and state laws you now have to cater to f___,, b-------,w ,,,,,,,, etc.
I'm glad I left when I did

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2023 4:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Oct 2023 16:26:57 -0400

As an E-5 Reservist who was also prior active, you were absolutely NOT wrong by any stretch! Being a Range Safety certainly does not preclude you from showing proper customs and courtesies, especially toward senior NCO's. Old fashioned? Not by a long shot. If one does not expose unacceptable behavior and contempt for subordinates - how will that fare in a forward operating area, or combat? Frankly, this Range Safety needs a little 'old school' corrective action.

Response by SSG Bill Moore made Nov 1 at 2023 12:25 AM

SSG Bill Moore — Wed, 01 Nov 2023 00:25:28 -0400

All three of you are wrong. The E-5 either doesn't give a crap or he no longer wants to be in the Army. Either way, he needs to be released. As for you, an E6, you do outrank him but you are both NCO's. If two NCO's can't figure out a solution to such a mundane problem without their personal feelings getting in the way, our Military is screwed. As for the LT. I'm assuming he or she was a Butterbar. The LT should have stopped both your whining before it escalated.

Response by SPC E Pax made Nov 2 at 2023 12:51 AM

SPC E Pax — Thu, 02 Nov 2023 00:51:49 -0400

Seems like if you followed most up to date guidelines on escalation, by going straight to the paperwork route (counseling/ art 15) things would have been handled, possibly wouldn't have made it past promotion board due to negative paper trail and things would have been solved. Telling an adult to get on the ground so you can talk to him, even though he was in the wrong, just sounds like some Standford Prison experiment power trip. It's not effective, nor did let future leaders that may come across this individual that he's a shit bag. A paper trail does if people actually use it.

Response by SP5 Timothy Cooper made Nov 2 at 2023 11:00 PM

SP5 Timothy Cooper — Thu, 02 Nov 2023 23:00:49 -0400

SSG I worked in the weapons room alot in a Brigade if some one get a weapon out that person cleaned it a sgt cleaned a COL's weapon one time . I ask him you sent the weapon out he said no get the COL down here too clean this weapon an he came down an cleaded it too SOP.

Response by SFC Jerald Bottcher made Nov 3 at 2023 12:54 PM

SFC Jerald Bottcher — Fri, 03 Nov 2023 12:54:24 -0400

This pisses me off to no end.
1 he was reported as being disrespectful to NCO and officers at the range, then he was disrespectful to the Senior NCO at the Arms room. Then he disrespected you in front of the officer. This was blatant disrespect. He was refusing corrective action.
If you locked him up at the position of attention and he continued to talk and be disrespectful, that would have been time to put pen to paper. (I would not have used the Front leaning rest position for this - that is used more for lower enlisted, not NCO's.)
The CSM in this situation is DEAD WRONG. The 1Sg's and CSM's are in charge if the discipline in the company and battalion. This CSM is failing in his duty to maintain that discipline - badly. If a soldier or NCO will act this way in peacetime, he will act this way in wartime.
Since this was so egregious I would have written him up with a counseling statement and recommended an article 15 (summarized at the minimum - personally I would be pushing for some rank to be lost as he is showing he is not deserving of that rank)
But then maybe I am an old school combat arms SFC that did not let my soldiers get away with that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2023 5:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Nov 2023 17:09:18 -0400

It doesn’t matter what a person’s rank or position is, standards are standards, to which NCO’s, by nature of being an NCO, are usually held to a slightly higher than normal standard so as to set an example to Jr Enlisted. I spent 21yrs in the Army Reserve, and noticed that the standards during Drill Weekend are typically lower by nature of being Reservists. The AGR’s, being Active Duty, should help lead the standards during Drill Weekend. For that AGR NCO to not lead the standard, they were in the wrong. You took them to a secluded area, following the “code” of “praise in public, criticize in private”

Response by SSG William Hommel made Nov 13 at 2023 7:34 AM

SSG William Hommel — Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:34:50 -0500

This described situation was why I left the reserves. After 11 active, I couldn't stomach the disorganization and lack of standards and professionalism I encountered (at two different USAR units.)

Response by SGT Karen Emanuelson made Nov 13 at 2023 2:05 PM

SGT Karen Emanuelson — Mon, 13 Nov 2023 14:05:34 -0500

I feel for you 100% & have been in that situation. A couple of things though: An NCO can put troops in parade rest. Attention is for officers & boards until told "at ease." Another thing: I was a drill & we did "physical punishments" which was squat thrusts--no more than 50, but this was to a bunch of private E1s (former prisoners--so a few had been E5s & E6s, yes, but all lost their rank in their court martials). So, having another NCO drop into the front leaning rest position? Probably not a great idea. The CSM chewing you out in front of the E5? Not cool. You probably should have gone to an officer & then did a write up. Oh well...hindsight 20/20 etc. Good luck going forward.

Response by SGT Jim Giffin made Dec 11 at 2023 3:56 PM

SGT Jim Giffin — Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:56:51 -0500

And this E-5 is the guy that will be responsible for his troops when the lead flies. Wouldn't trust him at all. He is an insubordinate POG that needs to be out.

Response by SPC Daniel Brown made Dec 20 at 2023 3:38 PM

SPC Daniel Brown — Wed, 20 Dec 2023 15:38:35 -0500

Being disrespectful of a senior is completely wrong and the CSM should have backed you in front of the E5 then dismiss him and talk to you and LT platoon leader together and explain what he expects from both of you in the future.

Response by SCPO Lonny Randolph made Jan 1 at 2024 3:21 PM

SCPO Lonny Randolph — Mon, 01 Jan 2024 15:21:07 -0500

Ah the subtle joys of the old Navy, where there is always a secluded fan room and a dogging wrench available for attitude adjustment. Alternately there is always the possibility of assignment to duties one would find less than attractive but completely legal; for example, assign the young lad the opportunity to inspect and clean ALL of the weapons from the range... just sayin... nuttin but love and attention to detail...

Response by SPC Phillip Jackson made Jan 20 at 2024 2:58 PM

SPC Phillip Jackson — Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:58:00 -0500

Yeah, you were wrong for not taking that punk to the nearest treeline. This is not my Army anymore.

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Jan 21 at 2024 11:43 AM

Cpl George Matousek — Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:43:06 -0500

Totally wrong of the CSM, this soldier disobeyed your orders, he should be written up and discplined. Semper Fi

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2024 12:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Jan 2024 00:59:17 -0500

Let me tell you what I see. You have an E-5 as range safety. You have NCO's and officers complaining probably because the E-5 was running a tight no nonsense range which the complainers were unaccustomed and this is something I've experienced first hand. As things were heating up in the sandbox our company went through all of its soldier skills. I had the NBC station. I flunked 99.9% of the company because they could not meet the standard. Everyone that outranked me went to TOP's office and complained. I got called in and asked to explain myself. I told TOP they can fail to meet standard in garrison and not get injured or die but on the battlefield, failure to make standard can cause them injury or death. So that is why I was very strict. I will say this though the biggest crybabies I've ever seen have been E-7's and E-8's.

My guess is there was a lot of retaliation against the E-5 for running a squared away range.

Response by SSG Brian Pyle made Feb 5 at 2024 3:19 PM

SSG Brian Pyle — Mon, 05 Feb 2024 15:19:31 -0500

I get it, I was in a unit 1 drill, the next drill they told me I was amazing, and I was being named 1SG as an SSG and all of my PSGs were SFC (AGR) they didn't want any more responsibility and to be fair they had their own jobs to deal with. It's a very weird dynamic. I guess I should have been less amazing while I in-processed :) ......... Your situation... the SFC that brought it to your attention is garbage for not handling it right then and there, shame on him. Your CSM telling you in front of the E5 that you escalated to quickly, just makes me sick to my stomach. Drive on SSG! Keep up the good work!!

Response by PO3 Michael MacKay made Feb 11 at 2024 1:19 PM

PO3 Michael MacKay — Sun, 11 Feb 2024 13:19:21 -0500

You should have simply ordered him to break down and clean his weapon. And, he seems like a a-hole, when he refused write him up and send it up the chain.

Response by Sgt Peter McLaughlin made Mar 22 at 2024 7:48 PM

Sgt Peter McLaughlin — Fri, 22 Mar 2024 19:48:43 -0400

Please forgive me if I'm reading this post wrong, but last time I checked, you didn't have the option of whether you liked someone or not. ( It sounds like that's what's going on here with this E-5). A strict stern reprimand might be needed here.

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Mar 23 at 2024 3:32 AM

SFC Howard Holmes — Sat, 23 Mar 2024 03:32:02 -0400

Praise in public, reprimand in private, don't demean fellow NCOs in front of subordinates, no matter what the ranks involved are, not and SFC in front of a SSG, or a SSG in front of a Sgt. I am so glad I am older. The last conflict I had was, I was giving the pre-range class, safety procedures etc. I was writing on the board, I turned around and a PFC had a bead on me, and was holding it. I was nonchalant, got within range grabbed the weapon, cussed him out and was about to take him out back. He told me he was going to report me, and I said let's go, I will take you to the old man's office. It was in the day when I knew the Sr. Command would have my back. When I was retiring, I saw the erosion of discipline, respect and levels of narcissism occurring in the ranks. I can't even imagine being in a conflict with some of the pukes in now, I imagine, "leave no man behind" is only a suggestion, or a hope, because I don't see selfish individuals sacrificing themselves to get the body of an already dead soldier, with the attitude, "he's already dead, why should I die getting his body" or something of that nature. Not getting that support from your CSM, AND, being corrected in front of a subordinate is doubly disgusting. Good people aren't staying in, the ones getting promoted are getting there too quickly, and I have no idea what they're teaching at the leadership schools now days. It certainly isn't, if you want to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower. I'm sorry that happened to you SSG.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2024 11:30 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Apr 2024 11:30:23 -0400

To me, you tried to cover your a$$ by making sure you had an audience before you talked to him the first time (at the range), If the talk didn't work, I would have had a counseling statement explaining what he did wrong and the consequences of his future actions. If it got to the CSM level, it would have been because his attitude hadn't changed and you were finding out what you next steps could be.. Instead, he is getting a promotion and going to the next unit with the same f-up attitude. As NCOs, our job is to nip the problem in the bud and to remind soldiers of what our expectations are. As an Active Duty Senior NCO myself I understand that the Guard and Reserve may be more lax than AD, but he would have been an entirely new soldier by the time I was finished with him. This attitude does not sync with what we expect. If he does this now, how would he perform under real pressure?

Response by SGT Robert Urbaniak made Apr 14 at 2024 3:30 PM

SGT Robert Urbaniak — Sun, 14 Apr 2024 15:30:36 -0400

There seems to be a very undisciplined group of people in the military today. This would have never handicapped when I was in the Army ( 1969-1970 ). Are officers or higher ranking NCO's afraid to correct these people, or just don't know any better?

Response by LTC Jorge Cordero made Apr 29 at 2024 6:43 AM

LTC Jorge Cordero — Mon, 29 Apr 2024 06:43:35 -0400

Typical F-up and move up. I've been Reserve, AGR, Active Duty and even Retire Recall. Some Active and AGRs feel they are better than reservist, but we all wear the same uniform and go through same training and even have the opportunity to get deployed the same. During the last couple of wars there were almost as many reservist and national guard on the battle field as AC. When you start treating some soldiers better or different because of their status as AC, AGR or Reservist you diminish the rest of the unit.