We all agree that our most valuable lessons are from the mistakes we make. Why is it we fire those who make bad mistakes?

2016-09-24T16:19:37-04:00

When we fire leaders who make mistakes, we don't get the lesson learned from the mistake. A leader retained following a big mistake has the opportunity to mentor younger leaders with the lessons learned. Is it any wonder we keep repeating mistakes?

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 24 at 2016 4:24 PM

2016-09-24T16:24:22-04:00

I have used this before, but it bears repeating. An 0-6 CO I knew had a little sign on his desk, it read: "He who makes no decisions, makes no mistakes."

I am a firm believer in that message.

Response by SGM Barry Kindred made Sep 24 at 2016 4:25 PM

2016-09-24T16:25:37-04:00

The premise is right. Depends a lot on the mistake.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2016 4:36 PM

2016-09-24T16:36:57-04:00

In general, sir, a pervasive "no fault" mindset causes leaders to perceive every mistake as a failure. A leader who does not make the distinction between a mistake and a gross failure has a tendency to distrust subordinate leaders and their decision making capabilities, resulting in hard-line discipline. They tend to use results-driven approaches rather than problem-solving (process-driven) approaches in virtually every situation presented to them.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Sep 24 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-09-24T17:32:19-04:00

Not everyone that screws up gets fired. It all depends on the severity of the mistake. Are you saying a Squad Leader gets fired (relieved) for coming to formation out of uniform because a shithead walked away with his cover during a Staff meeting just prior to formation?

Sorry Sir, but you need to make clarification of the term "big mistake".

Response by SGM Barry Kindred made Sep 24 at 2016 5:45 PM

2016-09-24T17:45:07-04:00

Actually the most valuable lessons I learned was from others mistakes. Center for Army Lessons Learned

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 24 at 2016 7:16 PM

2016-09-24T19:16:13-04:00

"Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't." ~Pete Seeger

I agree with you Colonel.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Sep 24 at 2016 7:28 PM

2016-09-24T19:28:13-04:00

I relieved several NCO's over the years for different types of misconduct. Some were reduced, some were not. The ones that rehabilitated and came back up the ranks were accepted and respected. Those who walked away were remembered as examples of bad behavior. We learned lessons from both groups.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Sep 24 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-09-24T21:47:39-04:00

There's a lot I could say on this subject having worked in the joint lessons learned program for many years. Mostly we don't learn the lessons as well as we should. We do repeat the same mistakes many times. We used to build entire exercise scenarios based on a few lessons we knew needed to be learned.

Big mistake: no pilot survives a ground mishap with his aircraft. There was a large tree at the edge of the ramp at Aviano. Over a few years four C-130 dinged the tree with a wingtip. Career of all pilots was destroyed. US offered to buy the tree, but the Italians wouldn't sell. Every crew was briefed on the tree, but some still hit the tree.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Sep 24 at 2016 10:43 PM

2016-09-24T22:43:22-04:00

I FEEL THAT PEOPLE WHO MAKE MISTAKES WE ARE ALL HUMAN IT'S EASIER TO GET RID SOMEONE THAN COUNSEL HIM ON HIS MISTAKE.

Response by SGT David T. made Sep 25 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-09-25T09:52:08-04:00

It all depends. There is a difference between a mistake and a F@$% up. The former can be forgiven and the individual should be allowed to learn from it. The latter the person did or at least should have known better and they should be fired. A good example would be a Soldier wasn't trained on how to do PMCS. They check a few things but miss something that causes the truck to break. That is a mistake. A F@%$ up would be a Soldier getting caught smuggling drugs back into Germany from Belgium. That cannot be forgiven.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 25 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-09-25T10:31:56-04:00

Actually I'm OK with a number of the high profile firings. Most of them relate to up front "Don't do this" type stuff. At O-6 knife/fork school, we were hammered with don't do extramarital affairs. Don't do bribes. Don't mess up classified stuff. The list goes on. Then they turn around and do it. The common factor is hubris. They are above the law. That's exactly what we can't afford in our leadership. That I'm better than the rest of the world attitude is what causes a skipper to bypass procedure and surface his sub under a vessel, killing a lot of kids. Nope, they aren't worth the risk.

That said, the issue is whether or not lesser sins change anything. It depends on the recovery, if there is one. I've made a lot of mistakes in my career. Said some things I shouldn't have and the list goes on. I surely learned from them. However most of them my Reporting Senior wasn't aware of. Sometimes I self reported it but made sure I fixed it. So if you're visibly more capable, more perceptive, and more effective because of it, AND it can be seen by people who matter, it can be a good thing. One thing for sure, there are a number of folk who are better than you who won't screw up the way you do. That's just the bell curve in action.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Sep 25 at 2016 2:37 PM

2016-09-25T14:37:20-04:00

In my view, this question is tied to the individual firing the leader. The knowledge, judgement, values, experience, and personality of the person making that decision. The worse place I worked was for a zero defect leader who wanted everything perfect. There was little growth as mistakes where a bad thing. Often I was ridiculed in front of the command ans staff for things not being right. I never saw mentorship or coaching from the XO or CDR. I did see my NCOs helping me out and I thanked them for that. This is when I almost left the Army. We did have an NCO that made a mistake, tried to cover it up because of the command climate, and eventually was fired. Sadly it was a small thing.

Besides individuals that act like the leaders above in this one short story, I feel that many leaders have unrealistic expectation. Others are the "Do as I say and not as I do". As a 2LT our company commander told the company not to drink and drive and the standard weekend safety brief. The commander took the LTs out and he was drinking with his CPT buddy wile driving. really?

Firing someone is up to that one guy or gal and his or her knowledge, judgement, values, morals, experience, and personality. It is an individual thing and I feel some of it is tied to the military culture that breads zero defect leaders.

It would be awesome if there was a study by one of the big think tank to figure this out.

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Sep 25 at 2016 2:40 PM

2016-09-25T14:40:41-04:00

I suppose it would depend on the type of mistake too. Is this the type that can cost lives or risk security? If so, no do not keep them. That is not the type of mistake that I want to risk being made again. Is it something of a lesser nature possibly so. No one is perfect and to expect that from anyone is unrealistic. Great post though.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 2:51 PM

2016-09-25T14:51:57-04:00

When we keep a leader in place, after making a bad mistake, we are having to overcome the lack of confidence in that leader. Despite lessons learned, overcoming a lack of confidence in a leader's ability to lead can often be too high of a hurdle.

I disagree about not having lessons learned. Often, the replacement leader will discuss the lessons learned. Moreover, younger leaders often learn by observation as much as doing. I know that I have noted many of the mistakes made by my senior leaders and created my own lesson on what not to do.
Of course much if this discussion depends on the nature of the mistake made.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Sep 25 at 2016 4:12 PM

2016-09-25T16:12:58-04:00

I always got the perception that once a commander lost faith and confidence in you, you were done for one way or another. If not summarily relieved, a case could be built against you, reassigned or transferred to the rear, given faint praise fitness reports, etc. The service is not very forgiving in my humble opinion

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 7:13 PM

2016-09-25T19:13:45-04:00

This is the kind of lesson learned I am talking about. https://www.navytimes.com/articles/misconduct-nearly-ended-his-career-how-tough-lessons-shaped-the-new-mcpon

Misconduct nearly ended his career. How tough lessons sha | Navy Times

The Navy's new top enlisted reflects on the mistake two decades ago that forced him to rebuild his career — and his life.

Response by COL D Zimmer made Sep 26 at 2016 1:22 AM

2016-09-26T01:22:55-04:00

Short answer - because actions should have consequences. Sometimes the impact of bad mistakes should result in severe consequences. However, a wise boss should balance between the effect of 'severe consequences' (getting fired) and the benefit to the organization by imposing a lesser consequence. Perhaps a good rule of thumb would be lesser penalties for younger soldiers who have potential to serve at higher levels of responsibility and more severe penalties for more senior soldiers who should know better.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Sep 26 at 2016 7:41 AM

2016-09-26T07:41:59-04:00

Great question John, seemingly it is for reasons of transparency, but you are right it does look a whole lot like the early 90s zero-defect mentality!

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 26 at 2016 1:52 PM

2016-09-26T13:52:45-04:00

It really all depends on what the mistake is because it's not like we can just tell servicemembers to pack their bags and go home. They are under contract of course. So they do have the opportunity to not only learn from their mistakes but potentially rise above them. And the people around that person are going to learn from his mistake as well because it's not like we just sweep things under the rug. When someone gets fired, it's pretty public knowledge.

My biggest issue with the question is it all depends on the severity of the mistake. If someone got fired for skipping protocols to speed up mission readiness and then a couple pilots were lost, would anyone feel comfortable with that person still in command? What if the lesson wasn't learned and steps continue being skipped. Depending on how high up the rank is, what if others fear their careers being cut short for refusing the corner cutter. No the individual needs to be removed immediately to ensure he a.) knows he's being punished and b.) knows he's not getting away with it.

If people only get a slap on the wrist punishment, a lot of times, they will take more risks because the penalty wasn't so bad.

But like I said, it all depends on what the mistake is... for instance, personal mistakes (something that doesn't affect anyone but yourself), I see no reason to fire someone over something that doesn't affect anyone else. I had a really motivating leader who made a bad choice earlier in their career. The mistake didn't hurt anyone. The person was punished appropriately. But they were able to bounce back and rise above it. If they were just burned at the stake for a simple mistake, I probably wouldn't have had a motivating leader to emulate when I joined the military.