We promote and award in public for good reason. Why is it wrong to reduce and discipline in public?

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:36:43 -0500

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 2:40 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:40:14 -0500

My opinion is that it is done to allow the Soldier a chance to recover from the incident and improve themselves. The Army has always been a place that allowed for young people to mature and grow, and through that process they are going to make mistakes. As long as it was a mistake in judgment, and not a mistake involving moral character.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 2:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:41:05 -0500

I thought the Marines issued punishments in front of their platoons? I dont think its a good idea because you could further the moral of the Soldier in trouble. I would like to go back to posting article 15s in units.

Response by SMSgt Roger Horton made Feb 14 at 2017 2:49 PM

SMSgt Roger Horton — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:49:48 -0500

It may not be wrong but I think it is common courtesy by the Command for the subject to publicize it if he or she so desires.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 2:50 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:50:08 -0500

If Soldiers know someone is wrong, and don't see them punished they may think they got or are getting away with it.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Feb 14 at 2017 2:54 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:54:16 -0500

Nobody wants their "dirty laundry" aired.

Response by SSG Robert Smith made Feb 14 at 2017 3:27 PM

SSG Robert Smith — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:27:54 -0500

You can post the details of the punishment without their ssn showing.

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Feb 14 at 2017 3:29 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:29:54 -0500

Because it creates an environment where everyone walks on eggshells. What kind of environment is that to work in? Sorry, I don't agree with discipline in public (no, never received UCMJ or anything of the nature when I was in.)

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 14 at 2017 3:31 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:31:12 -0500

Can't a service member elect to have their punishment done in public if they so choose?

I agree with CSM Private RallyPoint Member that the unit could benefit from seeing something like that be done but at the same time I understand why commands defer to doing it privately. I think we promote and award in public as a way to motivate in a positive manner. Publicly punishing someone would have the other effect to the unit in my mind.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 4:13 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:13:06 -0500

There is a great article about this in the NCO Journal. "From the CSM: Correction should train, not humiliate."
http://ncojournal.dodlive.mil/2013/01/10/from-the-csm-correction-should-train-not-humiliate/
Our goal is not to satisfy the crowd, it's to correct and train.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 4:53 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:53:10 -0500

Hi, 1SG Purcell.

Promoting and awarding in public allows for the “that-a-boy” pats on the back. The soldier has done well, excelled beyond the average, deserves to be pointed out, and is challenged to keep up the good work. On the other hand, disciplining in public only serves to ostracize the wrongdoer. Given the infraction, it advances a negative opinion of the accused from which recovering from the charge will be harder. It’s a slippery slope; if everyone now expects the offender to continually hit that low mark, he’ll never do any better.

He sinned. He paid for it. Certainly, everyone knows it, especially if there is a reduction involved. The only way forward for him and the unit is discipline with minimal fanfare.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 5:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:19:05 -0500

I totally agree with praise in public and discipline in private, but if the sm wants it public that's their choice, and I would actually applaud that, why, this sm is trying to tell other sm's, their conduct was wrong and this is what happens, part of the learning curve, but for a command to publically humiliate an sm even though it could be a lesson is not right, sm loses rank in private then its up to them to explain why to the others, and to correct their deficiencies, of course this is the military and yes we may have to at times chew ass in public, but don't single out one person to do it, make it general

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 14 at 2017 5:25 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:25:49 -0500

I've been a fan of praise publicly and punish privately for a long time. Most talk about what public punishment does to the SM, but neglect what it does to the person imposing it. So your leadership is so weak that you need to publicly display your so called power? You gain far more beans in your pouch by the SM coming out of a private butt massage with their only public comment is "I never want to go through that again". Silence also is a tell. The most profound thing in my Command was how quickly some dirtbag was simply gone. I remember a couple here today/gone tomorrow incidents. The crew could only guess. My SEL would simply tell the NCOs that it wasn't pretty and left it up to their imagination as well.

The JO that decided to put his uniform on, go to the Congressman's home office, protest, and prominently appear on the evening news? Epic!

Response by CPT(P) David Thorp made Feb 14 at 2017 5:46 PM

CPT(P) David Thorp — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:46:08 -0500

Well if you want to crush his soul and any chance of him demonstrating resiliency, then no, it's not wrong. Otherwise, I'd give him the option

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 14 at 2017 8:28 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:28:49 -0500

Top, I had a commander who was old school back in 1983, he had Commanders Information time or some name like that. if you screwed up and was getting the Company level AR-15, be prepared to supply the knife, to have them caught off. That is how I learned that the fastest way to make E-4 (E-4 still had to be earned, not given away) was to start off as a E-5. Same for fastest way to make E-3 was to start off as an E-4. He would call the guilty to the front of the room, have the XO publish the orders, and reduce them in front of God and Everyone. At that time the IG said it was legal. I am sure now a days it would be some sort of cruel punishment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 10:04 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:04:05 -0500

I know an SM that got hemmed up, and he definitely deserved it for being out of line like he was.
I knew about it, but I wasn't witness to it. Whatever was said was for his line leader and him, between Sergeant and Soldier.

Whatever punishment or training he had to go through, that's between him and his COC and not for me to be party to.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 15 at 2017 8:01 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:01:45 -0500

CSM Private RallyPoint Member "Why is it wrong to reduce and discipline in public?"

We do, its called a Court Marshall and in most cases is an open court.
If you mean Art 15, it can be open or closed as requested... and ART is set up to handle "Minor" or less sever infractions of the UCMJ, as such, its expected the SM will learn from the mistake and move on.
Further, what advantage do you perceive from doing a ART15 in public? Or Rank reduction?
Not once did my unit SM not know what was going on, who was getting a ART15 and for what, and after what the punishment was.

AR 27-10
3–22. Announcement of punishment

The punishment may be announced at the next unit formation after punishment is imposed or, if appealed, after the decision on the appeal. After deleting the social security account number of the Soldier and other relevant privacy information, the results of the UCMJ, Art. 15 punishment may be posted on the unit bulletin board. The purpose of announcing the results of punishments is to preclude perceptions of unfairness of punishment and to deter similar misconduct by other Soldiers. An inconsistent or arbitrary policy should be avoided regarding the announcement of punishments that might result in the appearance of vindictiveness or favoritism. In deciding whether to announce punishment of Soldiers in the grade of SGT or above, the following should be considered:a. The nature of the offense.b. The individual’s military record and duty position.c. The deterrent effect.d. The impact on unit morale or mission.e. The impact on the victim.f. The impact on the leadership effectiveness of the individual concerned.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Feb 15 at 2017 9:03 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 09:03:20 -0500

Who thinks it's wrong to punish in public? I've sat through a number of NJPs. Some of them were so public they were held at the base theater. I would never think public punishments are wrong because it's making an example of someone in order to hopefully prevent others from making the same mistakes.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2017 4:20 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 16:20:32 -0500

Moot point. There are no secrets in the Army, even moreso the smaller the unit is. Everyone knows what happened pretty much right after it happened. There's no need to publicly rehash it. A recent incident in my unit happened, and all the junior enlisted troops knew what happened before the leadership did. That is the reality.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made Feb 18 at 2017 1:46 AM

MSG Jay Jackson — Sat, 18 Feb 2017 01:46:25 -0500

I think it should be done this way. If a soldier gets in trouble, then the command has an interest in letting the troops know that corrective action was taken. We all can remember the rumors we heard about what so and so did and how they got off easy, or got hammered. Well posting the actions taken where all can see lets the others know that justice was done. Offenders were held accountable. This should apply to the PV1 and the highest-ranking NCO or officer. They publish the convictions and acquittals for courts marshal in the Army Times, so all UCMJ and LORs should be posted at the appropriate level of command. Also, if you were found to not be guilty then publish a notice saying that so and so is still in good standing and has not committed the acts they were accused of.

Response by Eric Lowe made Feb 19 at 2017 12:12 AM

Eric Lowe — Sun, 19 Feb 2017 00:12:07 -0500

Moral

Response by Chris Moody made Feb 20 at 2017 6:36 PM

Chris Moody — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 18:36:37 -0500

Discipline not break some one down by doing it in public.

Response by CPT Wiliam Miller made Feb 23 at 2017 1:29 AM

CPT Wiliam Miller — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 01:29:30 -0500

It disrupts the image of the units image. I would tell the problem soldier that we would deal with this back at the company area.

Response by SGT(P) Jazmin Johnson made Feb 24 at 2017 9:36 AM

SGT(P) Jazmin Johnson — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 09:36:56 -0500

I believe that if you relish in the "pat on the back" then you must also be ready to take a good dose of criticism. No one is perfect and we all do something stupid at some point. To publicly address such things just as with positive public displays, it teaches those who are observing the wrong or right thing to do. I know that when I am in formation for an award ceremony it motivates me to be awarded next time, therefor pushing me to do the right things in order to attain such awards. The same goes for when I overhear a tongue lashing or someone is pointed out for their discrepancy. It baffles me to see my peers (e3-pvt) lash back or completely disregard what an NCO has to say.