West Point graduates and Senior NCOs - where is the balance of respect?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 04:22:44 -0500

Should 2LT or 1LT listen to their Senior NCOs advice or just ignore them because the graduated from West Point?

Response by CPT Laurie H. made Nov 12 at 2013 5:26 AM

CPT Laurie H. — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:26:28 -0500

I sense frustration.

I'd say that's even more reason to listen to their Senior NCOs!

Response by CPT Mike M. made Nov 12 at 2013 6:59 AM

CPT Mike M. — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:59:46 -0500

Ridiculous question.  There's no such thing as a moment when you don't listen to your senior NCOs.  Not only that, but it is VERY few and far between, the moments when you don't take their recommendation verbatim and put that out as the official plan.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 7:47 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:47:07 -0500

They should totally ignore them! I mean what can 8 to 18 years of real world experience teach you that 4 years in a sterile college atmosphere wont... <br>(Sarcasm intended)<br>

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 12 at 2013 8:26 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:26:51 -0500

A good leader should always consider the advice of trusted NCOs.  I'm not sure where the specific "West Point" reference is coming from, though I'm guessing it's from some negative personal experience you had with an officer who commissioned from there.  Not all officers are good, regardless of their commissioning source.  Not every officer who was prior-enlisted is good.  Not all NCOs are good.  Not all junior enlisted are good.  It's up to you to determine as a leader who is reliable and deserving of your respect, faith, and confidence.  And that's best done through experiences alongside them in training and down range.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 9:35 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:35:50 -0500

This isn't a loaded question at all... The NCO's job is to advise but the responsibility for the decision ultimately rests on that LT's shoulders.  When I was an NCO, I was told my job is to make my LT look good, no matter how hard that is.  Now as a LT, one of my jobs is to not make my NCO fail at making me look good.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 10:43 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:43:48 -0500

I am assuming that this question pertains to your experience? One of the challenges
of being a subordinate is influencing those above us or who we work for. Since
you can't make a senior listen to you how do you craft the message to insure
its heard? Sometime how we communicate can effect how people receive that message.
I know that when a Sr. NCO approaches me with an attitude and basically
"tells" me that I should listen to them I have to resist the urge to
tell them to keep walking. Officers get this same problem from their superior
from time to time. I remember being a Company XO and have a less than stellar
commander. the BC expected me to excerpt influence beyond the chain of command.
So I had to get creative in how I steered the commander towards the commander’s
intent.

Bottom Line: All officers should listen to the counsel of their Sr. NCOs
before making decisions that affect Soldiers and the mission. But the ownership
of the discussion rests with the officer who has to make it. That's why they
call it the "Burden of Command". Being a PL is a command and requires
an LT to exercise all their cognitive skills.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 10:49 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:49:45 -0500

A brand new LT is just like a brand new PVT cause all in all we have to train them the same on my last deployment we had to teach one of our LT some stuff.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 10:50 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:50:09 -0500

A brand new LT is just like a brand new PVT cause all in all we have to train them the same on my last deployment we had to teach one of our LT some stuff

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2013 9:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:44:48 -0500

LTs should always listen to their NCOs and then formulate their own plan. But one must always be careful, NCOs don't always know EVERYTHING, I've had to prove my PSGs wrong a few times (but it was only a few). As I like to say, "Trust but verify".

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Nov 16 at 2013 11:57 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 23:57:16 -0500

Effective leaders (officer or enlisted) should be good listeners and take/consider advice from many different experiences.

LTs have a specific education base some NCOs do not understand...education (LTs) coupled experience (NCOs) make a formidable team.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2013 10:41 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Nov 2013 10:41:44 -0500

The only reason I asked this was I had one arrogant silver spoon in the mouth (filthy-rich lawyer's son) who graduated form West Point. Great, but he treated everyone like they were dirt under his fingernails. Since he never listed, he was always in trouble, and we (the senior NCOs) had to put up with it. Some of us too have 4 years or more of college too.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2013 11:38 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Nov 2013 11:38:57 -0500

As an Senior NCO who teaches and mentors cadets at West Point, I feel offended by this question. This is the reason why I came to USMA; to gain knowledge about the institution because so many people lack the knowledge of what exactly West Pointers go through. Did you know the number one question a cadet asks me is something to the effect of “how do I fit into my platoon when matched up against subordinates who are seasoned?” My typical response is this; Earn the respect and confidence of your platoon. Show your platoon that you care about them, willing to make the best decision for them but never be a push-over. Comprehend, analyze and understand your NCOs opinion to gain a full spectrum of what is at hand (when appropriate) . A good NCO will mentor you (the officer) just as you have the ability to mentor them (the NCO). You (the LT) will always have something to bring to the table so bring it. Everyone has their own individuality, leadership styles and West Point gives them (the cadet) to explore what works best for them so when they graduate, they can become the best leader possible.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Nov 17 at 2013 12:02 PM

MAJ Raúl Rovira — Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:02:23 -0500

Not sure what type of answer you are looking but here it goes.

My platoon sergeant said to me on our first day together, "LT, if you fail... that means I failed. I never fail."

13 rotations at NTC. I think he knows something I dont.

The best thing about our relation was that I always Listen, Learned from the NCOs and senior soldiers experience and Lead them.

Tank Platoon Leader time was one of the best moments in the Army because of the PSG/LT relation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2014 2:00 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 02:00:26 -0400

Wow, that is a loaded question. Maybe more of a statement. I was prior enlisted and I appreciate the perspective of the senior enlisted, however I can sympathize now that I have transitioned to the other side. I love the advice and direction when we are not fighting a battle of wills. I feel that too many young officers have given up too much ground and then when a competent officer comes along, the senior NCO leadership doesn't know how to take a back seat and let the appointed leader lead.

Response by COL Robert White made Apr 27 at 2014 1:55 AM

COL Robert White — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 01:55:25 -0400

The absolute best advice that I have been given in my career has been from NCOs and senior NCOs. It dos not matter where you got you commission, listen to your NCOs!

Response by SPC Richard White made Aug 3 at 2014 5:06 PM

SPC Richard White — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 17:06:06 -0400

It is the Lts responsibility to listen to the NCO.NCOs are the back bone of the Army.They have worked their way up through the ranks and know what the deal is.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 18 at 2015 5:53 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:53:00 -0500

Or to re-frame this more positively: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-is-the-one-thing-every-young-officer-must-know

What is the ONE thing EVERY young Officer must know? | RallyPoint

There's been quite a few discussions about how clueless young Lieutenants (and Ensigns) are when they hit the Operating Forces (and we often are). Here it is: your chance to publicly and permanently record the one topic you think is the most critical for us to know when we step in at your unit. With some luck, maybe those young officers will read it here and have the epiphany they need privately and everyone will be better off for it. So hit...

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 18 at 2015 6:04 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:04:42 -0500

Listen, listen, listen and then disseminate which information is useful by listening some more.

Response by MAJ John Douglas made May 29 at 2018 10:39 AM

MAJ John Douglas — Tue, 29 May 2018 10:39:08 -0400

Where they graduated from matters not the least. They better listen and let the NCOs help shape their decisions although the decisions won't always please everyone.

Response by Ken Kraetzer made May 29 at 2018 1:02 PM

Ken Kraetzer — Tue, 29 May 2018 13:02:04 -0400

When I have sat in talks to the cadets at West Point approaching graduation, the senior officers preach working closely and learning from the NCOs.

Response by SFC Stephen Atchley made May 29 at 2018 2:14 PM

SFC Stephen Atchley — Tue, 29 May 2018 14:14:29 -0400

Any West Point graduate that decides to ignore the advice of their senior NCOs because they're academy grads is a fool. Most likely a fool that will have a short, and difficult, military career.

Response by PO3 Michael James made May 29 at 2018 6:14 PM

PO3 Michael James — Tue, 29 May 2018 18:14:29 -0400

SFC Tolbert, Sir; Sorry Officers... I can only say that when it came to my butt.. I would always listen to my NCO.. they have Hands-on experience .. I wanted to survive... thanks..

Response by CPT Gary Jugenheimer made May 30 at 2018 1:28 PM

CPT Gary Jugenheimer — Wed, 30 May 2018 13:28:05 -0400

Any 2LT or 1LT, West Point, OCS, ROTC...does not matter, who does not pay attention to or respect the advice of a senior NCO will never realize fulfillment as an officer in any branch of the service!

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Nov 6 at 2021 5:08 PM

SGT Jeff Everhart — Sat, 06 Nov 2021 17:08:48 -0400

The mark of a good leader is how men willing would be willing to follow, not how many were manipulated into following random orders.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 6 at 2021 7:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 06 Nov 2021 19:54:19 -0400

As an Armor PL it would have been stupid to alienate the NCOs. They had a lot to offer me and knew much more about tanking than me.