What actions would you take if you found underage soldiers drinking on social media?

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:27:48 -0400

During a periodic social media spot check of your Soldiers, you notice a picture of one of your Soldiers drinking and they are not yet 21.  What action(s) would you take? As a caveat, what if the picture was sent to you by another peer? What if you're held accountable for your Soldiers' actions?

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 30 at 2014 12:00 PM

SFC James Baber — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:00:06 -0400

There are many steps you could take, whether or not any produce anything or are conducive are yet to be determined.

1. Turn information over to Command for their decision of what to do and receive guidance.

2. Counsel Soldier if so instructed by Command if determined you can do anything.

3. Turn info over to CID for further investigation of potential underground drinking and other negative club activity.

If the pic is sent by a peer, you can't ignore it as it is now known by at least 2 NCOs and who knows how many more.

I would rather take the potential heat round from above if I can prevent a potential injury. crime or fatality from the Soldiers actions.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Mar 30 at 2014 12:20 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:20:43 -0400

Tell them that putting "bad" things on Facebook is stupid, because now you are having this discussion with them when they could be out enjoying their off time. This goes for anything that they are doing and "posting". I would teach them this---THE PROBABILITY OF SOMEONE WATCHING YOU IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO THE STUPIDITY OF YOUR ACTIONS. Personally, if you are old enough to serve, you are old enough to have a beer (on base). Can't do anything about the State Laws. I remember when we used to have beer machines in the barracks. Ahh, the good old days.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Mar 30 at 2014 1:47 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:47:09 -0400

I have always been a "handle at the lowest level" type of person.  I would ensure the Soldier was counseled at the PSG level.  I would then brief the CDR to ensure that he/she was not blind-sided by it.  And if I was held accountable for these actions I would absolutely fall on my saber.  There are many of us who have violated the same offense back in the day as PVTs (minus the Social Media of course).  I remember being counseled and handled "in-house."

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 2:00 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:00:12 -0400

I've went over this before with my NCOIC. I would have the soldier self refer to ASAP or I would counsel him/her and send it up through the COC and let him get ART 15 then go to ASAP and get kicked out the Army. I would want to keep it at the lowest level possible. Kids are going to find a way to get alcohol. Always have, always will.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 3:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:47:35 -0400

Print, write up, ucmj, have a nice day

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 7:15 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:15:57 -0400

Social Media Spot check? Really dangerous waters to take a swim on it. Might want to consult legal before doing something like this. Besides how can you prove that a bottle of jack contains whiskey and not ice tea. Once again this is dangerous waters. CYA (Call Your Attorney) before doing this specially using government computer systems to gather data of a Soldier through Social media. Talking from experience with similar situation.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 30 at 2014 11:45 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:45:10 -0400

Doh! As the Grandson of a Prohbition Fighting Grandpa that is hard but I will give it a try. I didn't directly observe it which would be good but since it was pointed out to me I would have to act upon it. I'm thinking a Couseling Session Documented in his Division Officer Record which would disappear if he behaved himself afterwards.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 31 at 2014 2:33 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:33:44 -0400

MSG Quick, The picture must be undeniably clear that underage drinking took place so in other words, the evidence must show underage drinking took place. In addition, I would present this picture to my soldier and simply ask, "What can you tell me about this picture?" and "What does that beverage container in your possession hold". Before my soldier answered any questions, I will be clear that cooperation and honesty would be appreciated and the less I dig for facts or other information would be in their favor. If they come clean no problem; I would recommend for a UCMJ on the lowest level such as a summarized article 15. If I have to dig and "pull teeth" to get the truth and talk to several party members involved my recommendation for punishment will be harsher. If evidence is secured to state there was underage drinking then good order must be restored and punishment needs to be recommended and carried out swiftly, justly and fairly. I also would say don't post dumb incriminating pictures on social websites.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Mar 31 at 2014 2:50 PM

SPC Christopher Smith — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:50:03 -0400

Really all you can do is counsel and ensure your C.o.C knows that the picture might be viral. Outside of that, unless you can obtain a blood alcohol level or find the container and it does in fact have liquor, it is just a picture of a bottle with fluid in it. There might be some type of action UCMJ-wise to punish the SM but really there are better ways to get them to understand that what they did was stupid. No point in ruining a career for what so many of us have done.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 31 at 2014 3:12 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:12:39 -0400

Even though I believe that if you are old enough to serve your country you should be able to drink, within reason. As the regulation stands underage drinking is verboten under any circumstances. 1st offense, Article 15, second offense push, pull click click, your out that quick, no 3rd chances. It doesn't or shouldn't matter if it is caught on social media most underage drinkers are caught by others in the barracks or the MPs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 3:18 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:18:54 -0400

I see a lot of UCMJ action being recommended for this. I am going to be the dissenting opinion here.

I personally think that a counseling statement and a frank discussion would be the appropriate avenue. Yes, they violated the law. Yes, you can argue that it violates Article 92. However, there are many other factors which may be prevelant here.

For a first offense of this nature, I think it is more appropriate to guide the young Soldier into making the right decisions. Let them see what impact their actions can have. Let them learn a lesson, however do not do something that could stunt their career growth or place a permanent black mark on their record when it could be handled in a different manner. If we were talking about an illegal substance or more egregeous behavior, then the situation would dictate something more strict.

Things that would have to be looked at in conjunction with this:

-Where did the Soldier get the alcohol? Are they at a fellow Soldier's house? Is there something epidemic with underage drinking and contributing to this behavior?

-Was this time-out with his team/squad? Is there pressure to "be one of the guys?"

-Is this a common theme for the Soldier or unit?

If it seems to be reasonably isolated (we know that most underage drinking is not an isolated event), then it seems that it could be dealt with at a very low level. Some Soldiers have not been broken of the habits they may have developed as civilians and we know that most junior Soldiers are not as fully Soldierized as we would like to see coming about of IET. The issue comes if you see repeat offenses or issues that could be stemming from alcohol use/abuse. That is when I feel a Soldier needs to be pushed to a higher level of accountability.

Also, I think it is an abuse of resources to send a Soldier to ASAP for one drinking incident which does not indicate an actual issue with dependency or exceptionally poor decision making. An example: would an underage Soldier who had a couple of drinks, did not drive, did not perform any acts which would endanger themselves or others, did not perform any acts which violated any further laws, maintained a level of responsibility for their actions, and was fully ready for duty come Monday morning. Would this Soldier really be a good candidate for ASAP, even though they have a Facebook picture of them drinking from a bottle of beer? To me, that seems like an extreme reaction for someone who is otherwise being responsible. Now, if you have a picture of them hitting a 30-foot beer bong, doing shots, and then demonstrating other wreckless behavior, then they may need an assessment for dependency or otherwise damaging behavior.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 31 at 2014 3:31 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:31:20 -0400

So there are a bunch of "what ifs" you can throw into this scenario. What if the picture was just the under 21 year old service member HOLDING the bottle and not actually drinking from it? What if his/her hand was covering the label and what you thought was beer was really root beer? Sure 9 times out of the 10 the picture will be of the service member drinking the beer and whatnot but hey it's a scenario so let's have fun with it.

Also, beyond seeing a picture of liquid entering the service member's mouth, how can you determine by looking at the picture that in face the service member is drinking?

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Mar 31 at 2014 3:58 PM

SGT Suraj Dave — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:58:40 -0400

Tell them to take the photos down, and not to put them up again. Plain and simple. I underage drank as a lower enlisted every weekend. I know not much has changed since then, so they are probably doing the same thing. Even when I was the SDNCO, I never checked their ID's. I would just threaten to, and usually the under age soldiers will take their drinking indoors at that point.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 10:36 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:36:22 -0400

Real Scenario. Empty Bottle of Alcohol is found in Soldier's Barracks Room. Alcohol is prohibited in the Barracks. Can the commander administer punishment to the Soldier? The answer is no. The Bottle does not contain alcohol therefore there is no alcohol in the Soldier's room just an empty bottle. Straight out from legal.

Response by SGT James McCue made Apr 1 at 2014 10:33 AM

SGT James McCue — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:33:40 -0400

MSG-- Good question in today's issues.

I would counsel the soldier first. I would remind them that they are underage and accountable for every image that appears on Facebook or Instagram, even if someone posted it. I would advise them to delete any photo and post that can be viewed as inappropriate and maintain better control of their image.

Any repeat behavior will be subject to UCMJ action.

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Apr 1 at 2014 10:36 AM

1SG Johnny Carter — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:36:57 -0400

I have come across this situation and as a 1SG I handled it this way. First I sat the Soldier down and talked with him about the picture. Informed him of all the actions that could happen if this was discovered by the CO or even worse the CSM. We talked about pride and actions as being a Soldier and what that means. He understood after our talk and took the pictures down and has be a voice with his peers to spread the word. No harm no foul and we all came out ahead of the game. He understands that if he did partake in this act again it would be recommendations of UCMJ. Not everything we find has to automatically become UCMJ. Sometimes a good ole talkin to with understanding and reason works way better that paperwork.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 11:47 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:47:56 -0400

I have mixed feelings about this. I was in the at age 17 deployed to Iraq during the surge at 19, could have easily been killed or blown up and never could have been able to drink a beer. I recently got back in the army (ng) after 2 years of being out just being a civilian.

I believe if you are old enough to die for your country, you should be able to drink.

With that being said, rules are rules and the questions I would have to ask is what kind of pictures were taken? Was he drunk? Did he have obscene things going in the back ground.

All and all if this was my soldier. I would handle it myself at the lowest level. People in the army seem to forget that we all humans (without going into a rant).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 12:36 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:36:43 -0400

As has been said, counsel the Soldier on what you saw (it was nothing more than that) no corrective action needed in form of punishment. Notify the COC.

To all those jumping on the UCMJ badwagon...... How do you know they were drinking? Did you see the alcohol (if it even was alcohol) leaving the container going into their mouth? Do you have recorded a BAC afterwards to have solid proof that they did indeed consume alcohol? Some hard chargers need to think before they act/post (what they would do). These social media findings and UCMJ innitiation are grounds for negative things to happen to the leadership not the Soldier that it was initially intended for.

I talked to my SJA in great detail about everything before me and my commander made any decision on what to do when I was a 1SG. She was very good at her job and could tell you some mind blowing stories about how people got off charges. She told me one story about how an ex Soldier (had ETS'd) was pulled over for suspicion of drinking and driving. Got out of the car before the cop got to the car and opened and downed a fifth of whiskey. He was charged and booked for a DUI. Went to court and beat it because he claimed PTSD and that the blue lights from the cop car made him have to drink. Claimed that he hadn't drank before that, the cop had no way to prove otherwise, and it was in the police report of him downing that fifth as observed by the cop. Far fetched? Maybe! But I believe her as she never steered us wrong.

Bottom line...... Think before you act, and consult your SJA.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 6:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 06:59:07 -0400

This is a tricky one because while I am frequently known to deglamorize the use of alcohol I am also an advocate to remove the drinking age for people volunteering to die for their country.
That being said far too many leaders are quick to hammer soldiers rather than verbally counsel them. We have to remember that WE were all soldiers at one time and some of us far back before social media, I myself even before computers and cell phones.
We did it too, we just didn't get caught or if we did it was handled in house by NCOs. That of course was back when NCOs were allowed to be NCOs, both feared and respected.
I to this day have never fallen asleep on duty again after being awoken by a drill sergeant reminiscent of John Wayne on steroids while on fire guard in 1987. He didn't write me up or take me onto the carpet, he yelled... A LOT. I thought he was going to eat me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 10:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 10:50:25 -0400

MSG Quick,

If you went after one of my troops on this, I would be very upset. Just for fun I would see if there was anything embarrassing about you on the internet. There are some pretty powerful tools available.

If anyone with a rocker is involved in resolving this then it has gone too high. If you punish the soldier for this you lose visibility into their life, become the bad guy and encourage them to hide things. The troop will gain a life long us vs. them attitude with army 'leadership' and the other troops will learn to hide their activities.

Let us say you do UCMJ this EM. Next month there are a bunch of junior EM drinking (I know it is shocking that they all didn't quit when Snuffy got fried!).

One gets alcohol poisoning or raped or in a fight. Because YOU came down on Snuffy over drinking they say nothing. No one wants to get UCMJ. Worse if Snuffy is there no one wants snuffy to get a third strike and out he is a cool dude.

So by pushing this issue, you force a common behavior under ground and end up with a private drowning in a pool of his own vomit, or a late reported Sexual Assault that destroys your SHARP bullet point. (Why didn't you report this attack? Well MSG Mathew Quick fried Snuffy over drinking and I didn't want that to happen to me.)

Or you quietly comment to the Snuffy's SGT. who surprises you by saying "Why do you think he was washing every truck in the motor pool last week? I will make sure the picture comes down." Or they go and handle it at their level.

Personally I base commanders should put on their big boy pants and remove the 21 restriction, then we can see what is happening as opposed to creating an underground.

That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 1:49 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 13:49:01 -0400

I would have the soldier self refer to ASAP.. If they chose not to, then I would send it up the the CoC...which is far worse..

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 22 at 2014 1:39 PM

SPC Leisel Luman — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:39:20 -0500

My company commander handled a similar situation very effectively. Fort Polks DUIDeath toll was high. The post instituted a program called 531-COPS. If you, your ride or your buddy had to much to drink the MP would pick you up no questions asked and return you back to the barracks. I remember to this day him standing up on the box telling us with this program no one would be in trouble or even know your name but there would be NO mercy if you get pulled over. Everyone wound go down for it even if you were not in the car. If you were even present at the establishment. You were responsible to take their keys, call 531-Cops for yourself or anyone in our company with no back lash. He said if you have to tackle them to the ground for the keys and call me at home. He didn't care what time of night it was he would come take care if it with no backlash. He stated if he was blindsided by a blotter report we would all go down for it. We only had to wake him up once and he handled it true to his word. We could call 531-Cops without hurting ourselves or our buddy's. Awesome leadership & trust yielded the result he wanted.

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 22 at 2014 1:52 PM

SPC Leisel Luman — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:52:55 -0500

Old enough to lay down your life and give up a lot of your personal freedom for this country then you are definitely old enough for a beer. The social media could have been photo shopped, he could have been drinking Gatorade, maybe he was posing for the pic with a empty can. Who knows. Tell him to use more discretion if there is nothing more to it than a social media pic

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 2:02 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 14:02:14 -0500

Nothing! You have no proof that what was inside of the container was alcohol or not. From a legal stand point you would lose that fight.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Dec 22 at 2014 5:59 PM

LTC Paul Heinlein — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:59:32 -0500

I would (assuming I'm his/her first line supervisor) counsel them officially in writing on the "perception" that they are drinking under age. Its a perception because I do not know the 5 Ws of the picture and I can not prove that it was in fact alcohol in the picture. The counseling would include the potential charges if they are in fact caught drinking under age. I would eventually destroy the counseling within 6-12 months assuming no repeats or other negative actions took place.

Unofficially, I would give them a "do not be an idiot speech" about posting such pictures on the internet and not expecting the COC to eventually see it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:27:37 -0500

I have been made aware by JAG that social media spot checks are an invasion of privacy. The legal opinion was supported by a senior FBI analyst and former army intel type.

So, do nothing, and if you did hope that they are not smart enough to have you charged.