Posted on Jun 28, 2016
What advice do you have for the US Navy and Alexandra Marberry to resolve this impasse?
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What advice do you have for the US Navy and Alexandra Marberry to resolve this impasse?
****** BEGIN UPDATE ****** 6/30/2016 - SECDEF Ash Carter -
http://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/821675/secretary-of-defense-ash-carter-announces-policy-for-transgender-service-members
http://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0616_policy/Transgender-Implementation-Fact-Sheet.pdf
****** END OF UPDATE ******
The US Navy appears to have placed Annapolis Graduate Alexandra Marberry in a make work holding pattern . . . pending what? What is the US Navy trying to accomplish by this behavior?
http://www.capitalgazette.com/news/naval_academy/ph-ac-cn-transgender-usna-main-0 [login to see] 6-story.html
I should note the American Psychiatriatic Association in APA Diagnostic Manual . . . removed Homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in 1973 . . . and totally removed Transgender / Transsexual from the list of mental disorders in 2012. The SECDEF has ordered the services to announce complete removal of Transgender / Transsexual from the list of disqualifying medical conditions in July 2016 . . . and to plan for full integration of Transgender / Transsexual service members over the coming year.
While I am extremely conservative in many of my views . . . and personally question inconsistent medical approach LGBTQI people . . . the services appear to be poised right on the edge of outlawing discrimination against Transgender / Transsexual individuals . . . in much the same manner we outlawed discrimination against women and minorities long ago. Anyone who disagrees with these decisions will soon receive their orders . . . and they will have potentially career ending decisions to make . . . decisions that will follow them into the civilian sector should they choose to continue their more egregious discriminatory behaviors and/or positions.
That's SECNAV Ray Mabus posing with and shaking Alexandra Marberry's hand in the photo.
The question posed has nothing to do with any moral or religious debate. The question is . . . given SECDEF and SECNAV pending orders . . . ( recognizing the medical community's abandonment of the previous pathological diagnostic approach to LGBTQI people ) . . . where SECDEF and SECNAV are totally outlawing any further discrimination against Transgender / Transsexual service members . . . and requiring rules to fully integrate them within the coming year . . . what practical advice do you have to offer to the US Navy and Ensign Alexandra Marberry . . . about how best to approach the make work assignment and get into flight school?
****** BEGIN UPDATE ****** 6/30/2016 - SECDEF Ash Carter -
http://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/821675/secretary-of-defense-ash-carter-announces-policy-for-transgender-service-members
http://www.defense.gov/Portals/1/features/2016/0616_policy/Transgender-Implementation-Fact-Sheet.pdf
****** END OF UPDATE ******
The US Navy appears to have placed Annapolis Graduate Alexandra Marberry in a make work holding pattern . . . pending what? What is the US Navy trying to accomplish by this behavior?
http://www.capitalgazette.com/news/naval_academy/ph-ac-cn-transgender-usna-main-0 [login to see] 6-story.html
I should note the American Psychiatriatic Association in APA Diagnostic Manual . . . removed Homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in 1973 . . . and totally removed Transgender / Transsexual from the list of mental disorders in 2012. The SECDEF has ordered the services to announce complete removal of Transgender / Transsexual from the list of disqualifying medical conditions in July 2016 . . . and to plan for full integration of Transgender / Transsexual service members over the coming year.
While I am extremely conservative in many of my views . . . and personally question inconsistent medical approach LGBTQI people . . . the services appear to be poised right on the edge of outlawing discrimination against Transgender / Transsexual individuals . . . in much the same manner we outlawed discrimination against women and minorities long ago. Anyone who disagrees with these decisions will soon receive their orders . . . and they will have potentially career ending decisions to make . . . decisions that will follow them into the civilian sector should they choose to continue their more egregious discriminatory behaviors and/or positions.
That's SECNAV Ray Mabus posing with and shaking Alexandra Marberry's hand in the photo.
The question posed has nothing to do with any moral or religious debate. The question is . . . given SECDEF and SECNAV pending orders . . . ( recognizing the medical community's abandonment of the previous pathological diagnostic approach to LGBTQI people ) . . . where SECDEF and SECNAV are totally outlawing any further discrimination against Transgender / Transsexual service members . . . and requiring rules to fully integrate them within the coming year . . . what practical advice do you have to offer to the US Navy and Ensign Alexandra Marberry . . . about how best to approach the make work assignment and get into flight school?
Posted in these groups: NAS Pensacola
131x: Naval Aviator
USN Primary Flight Training
Naval Flight OfficerBUPERS
131x: Naval Aviator USN Primary Flight Training Naval Flight OfficerBUPERS
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 25
I will probably collect no end of down votes, but go ahead. Prove that you ONLY accept people who think like you do - that opinions you disagree with have to be silenced.
I am not at all opposed to people doing whatever they want. That's what Libertarians believe - as long as you aren't hurting someone else, do WHATEVER you want to. And I am opposed to religious people and their objections because God wouldn't like it. What you believe is your choice, but I think there is little more demeaning than to tell someone else what they should believe. (And before anyone cheers, that goes for you who think there's something wrong with not being more accepting of someone elses sexual orientation. That's just your religion and you also shouldn't demand everyone believe as you do either.)
The military is about giving up some of our freedoms, and accepting more regimentation than civilians. We serve our country. But Marberry wants the military to serve her identity. Will she expect the military (i.e. the TAXPAYER) to pay for her sex change? YES, absolutely. Even if the surgery itself isn't done by the military, the recovery period will be. Is this what the military has become, a soapbox for identity exploration? Recovery from sex surgery often takes a year or two. Is that what we need in the military, people taking 2 years paid leave to recover from elective surgery?
If you have a change before you come into the military, and pass the physical, fine. I have no problem with those who have had the surgery serving. But if what you want is someone to support you while you use the military as your soapbox, instead of serving, you should get out, and come back afterwards.
Or maybe she won't actually have the surgery. She just wants to dress as she feels. We've seen the outcome of that. Caitlyn Jenner was named Time's Woman of the Year, and the feminists just about went crazy. Does she do the male PT test, which would be fair, or does she do the female one, which gives her an advantage? And if some female complains about the score inequity, should be be silenced and downvoted for not agreeing with the vocal minority?
Marberry is in, and someone should find her a safe, nondeployable slot, perhaps in the Secretary of the Navy's office.
I am not at all opposed to people doing whatever they want. That's what Libertarians believe - as long as you aren't hurting someone else, do WHATEVER you want to. And I am opposed to religious people and their objections because God wouldn't like it. What you believe is your choice, but I think there is little more demeaning than to tell someone else what they should believe. (And before anyone cheers, that goes for you who think there's something wrong with not being more accepting of someone elses sexual orientation. That's just your religion and you also shouldn't demand everyone believe as you do either.)
The military is about giving up some of our freedoms, and accepting more regimentation than civilians. We serve our country. But Marberry wants the military to serve her identity. Will she expect the military (i.e. the TAXPAYER) to pay for her sex change? YES, absolutely. Even if the surgery itself isn't done by the military, the recovery period will be. Is this what the military has become, a soapbox for identity exploration? Recovery from sex surgery often takes a year or two. Is that what we need in the military, people taking 2 years paid leave to recover from elective surgery?
If you have a change before you come into the military, and pass the physical, fine. I have no problem with those who have had the surgery serving. But if what you want is someone to support you while you use the military as your soapbox, instead of serving, you should get out, and come back afterwards.
Or maybe she won't actually have the surgery. She just wants to dress as she feels. We've seen the outcome of that. Caitlyn Jenner was named Time's Woman of the Year, and the feminists just about went crazy. Does she do the male PT test, which would be fair, or does she do the female one, which gives her an advantage? And if some female complains about the score inequity, should be be silenced and downvoted for not agreeing with the vocal minority?
Marberry is in, and someone should find her a safe, nondeployable slot, perhaps in the Secretary of the Navy's office.
No one would understand. I wouldn't, and I am petty sure her men wouldn't. Love think she should be let go.
CPT Mark Gonzalez
1LT Sandy Annala - I told her to seek legal a long time ago. That is the best advice she has gotten. Based upon the parameters you mention your entire post should have never been posted. She should seek information from her chain who are fully informed of her situation and not you or me. Informing the Internet is only wasting all of our time as we ultimately won't change anything for her. I have only commented to such a degree as I dealt with another SM going through the exact same thing she is and they would be given the same advice. Today is day for her to celebrate, but I recommend she be patient as nothing is changing rapidly.
Suspended Profile
CPT Mark Gonzalez - Legal is a career ender . . . the sole point of which per our lawyers is to use the courts to extract money from wrongdoers . . . and absolutely nothing else.
Review the exeptional advice from CMDCM Gene Treants a surface command liaison and CDR (Join to see) a flight officer . . . and several others . . . who kindly provided rather exceedingly helpful perspectives on the US Navy, Flight Surgeons, and the way forward.
These are the true leaders . . . who see the writing on the wall . . . and are helping to provide the most sage advice about how to progress LTJG (Join to see) career.
This has also been an opportunity to clarify some TG/TS issues for other service members. Potentially valuable advice because ongoing bigotry and abuse will soon be career enders.
Review the exeptional advice from CMDCM Gene Treants a surface command liaison and CDR (Join to see) a flight officer . . . and several others . . . who kindly provided rather exceedingly helpful perspectives on the US Navy, Flight Surgeons, and the way forward.
These are the true leaders . . . who see the writing on the wall . . . and are helping to provide the most sage advice about how to progress LTJG (Join to see) career.
This has also been an opportunity to clarify some TG/TS issues for other service members. Potentially valuable advice because ongoing bigotry and abuse will soon be career enders.
PO2 (Join to see)
Why is it the crowd that screams PC at people who want change are also the ones that seem to so badly want to enact a PC culture of their, only one that fits their specific narrative and lifestyle? I see it all the time. "Oh, PC, PC", but then go on to speak of how this and that is heretical or damaging as if they themselves are the ones seeking a country that is one big safe space for their ideals.
PO2 (Join to see)
To expand, these people are also the ones that want the country to be ran under the moral guideline of their respective religion, while also being highly critical of the same systems but with a different religion in the Middle East. I find it all to be a very big exercise in mental gymnastics that honestly gives me a headache to try to analyze.
1LT Sandy Annala I totally missed part of your question. You also asked what advice do you have for the US Navy and I focused only on LTJG (Join to see). I was unfair by not replying to that part of your question.
Here goes: Navy it is time to get our money out of Ens Marberry. We sent her to the Academy and Educated her fully. Stop wasting her time and get her to Flight School OR failing that out to the Fleet and on a Combat Ship. This young lady belongs in the Fleet in some significant Bullet and not sitting on her ass marking time while we make a decision. The writing is on the wall, read it and lets get on with the mission of the Navy. She spent enough time in Annapolis, send her on!
Here goes: Navy it is time to get our money out of Ens Marberry. We sent her to the Academy and Educated her fully. Stop wasting her time and get her to Flight School OR failing that out to the Fleet and on a Combat Ship. This young lady belongs in the Fleet in some significant Bullet and not sitting on her ass marking time while we make a decision. The writing is on the wall, read it and lets get on with the mission of the Navy. She spent enough time in Annapolis, send her on!
LTJG (Join to see)
CMDCM Gene Treants - I agree 100% wholeheartedly. I have been begging since December to be allowed to just go out to the fleet and do a real job. Yes I want to fly, but if I could have been reassigned to a new community in December like I was about to before BUPERS stepped in, I would have taken that in a heartbeat. I am wasting my time, the Navy's time, and the taxpayer's money spent on my education. I like Annapolis, but I am so ready to leave this place.
CMDCM Gene Treants
LTJG (Join to see) - I would be honored to call you Shipmate. Go for a Cruiser or Gator if you want to see what the Navy is really all about but Tin Cans if you can take the ride!
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You said, and in fact, I agree, that ENS Marberry should be put to work. But you did not answer my question about berthing. If ENS Marberry's roommate doesn't want to share quarters with someone who has a penis, does she have any rights?
Discussions like we are having are happening all over. And it's possible that because we are having a civil discussion, we are providing input to help other discussions. And being an officer and Navy makes ENS Marberry's case not too difficult. What happens when it's a new enlistee going to basic, and wanting to be housed with their identified sex? It's easy to suggest that everyone just get over their opposition to TGs. Reality is different. Pretending that TGs have rights to be what they are, but no one else has rights is silly.
The Spartans had units composed entirely of homosexuals, on the theory that someone would fight harder for their lover. A possible solution might be to identify units, ships, and commands which can support such, without requiring everyone else to adjust so a minority can be happy. I don't agree with them, but both Moslems and Christians often find LGBTs to be offensive. Do they have NO rights at all? And even if they are wrong, does Good Order and Discipline mean anything? Just how far should any service go to accommodate what you yourself said was a tiny minority?
I know you expect to get your way, but if by some chance the Navy says, "everyone with a penis in one set of quarters, and everyone without in the other", will it still be "end of discussion?"
I didn't think so. The point I was making, now for the third time since you have failed to acknowledge it, is that we COULD send ENS Marberry to sea, by the simple expedient of asking if someone wants to share a berth with her. Expedient, means let's find some way for this person to earn a living, and then we can spend all the time we want considering the ramifications. Why are you fighting me on this?