What are everyones thoughts on TDA vs MTOE units?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 14:51:57 -0400

Discipline in the two greatly vary. As NCOs from MTOE units go into TDAs it seems that they are shunned because of their drive and desire to make a positive impact on the unit. I have seen several NCOs go into the TDA world and get looked down upon because of this. Has anyone had any experience with this?

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 9 at 2015 3:05 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Sat, 09 May 2015 15:05:37 -0400

TDA and mTOE are two different worlds. They operate in different ways because they have to. The issue is not that the NCO (or officer for that matter) wants to make a difference, as it is that they have to understand that the methods used in an mTOE may not necessarily work in a TDA environment. The leader needs to be able to adapt to be successful. My guess is those who are "looked down on" haven't tried to adapt their methods.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 3:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 15:28:07 -0400

MTOE and TDA units make up the Army. Both types of units have different missions, but are equally important. MTOE(faster paced) vs TDA(slower paced). I looked at TDA's as 'sustainers' and MTOE's as 'go getters'.

I would say no matter where you get assigned you do your best for the organization. You can still go the extra mile and make a difference, just remember the environment you're in.

We had an SGM that came from a line unit. As a TDA unit we didn't have basic CIF items unless they remained with you after a deployment. SGM wanted to do all this 'hooah hooah' stuff and finally someone had to sit him down and explain this unit doesn't operate this way. It took him awhile, but he finally fit in and did some great things for the benefits of the organization.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 3:40 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 15:40:10 -0400

I had a very difficult time in a TDA (Medical Center) after spending the first 7 years of my career in TOE units. I came across my civilian employees as crass and overbearing. Soldiers who have spent their entire career to date in TDA units did not respond to my leadership style (I grew up in infantry units). I thrive in TOE units. I like being given a mission and working hard to accomplish the mission. During my time in a TDA unit I felt that the mission was never ending. 0600-1800 I was expected to be in an office slugging away at a keyboard, no soldiering, no pt, no discipline. Needless to say I got out of there as soon as I could, going as far as accepting a requisition for Fort Wainwright, AK....and I'm from the Texas Gulf Coast. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that I will once again be assigned to another TDA withing the AMEDD if I want career progression, but I'm dreading it.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 3:50 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 15:50:32 -0400

I can see why you may view that discipline varies greatly between MTOE and TDA units however you have to look at the mission. The mission of an MTOE unit is usually to deploy within so many hours in support of a plethora of missions. Strict discipline in an MTOE unit is a must! When the order comes down to deploy on a moments notice everyone in the unit must act as they were trained. There is no time to train on the go in this environment. Readiness is key!

TDA units on the other hand are usually home based non-deployable units that prescribe the mission, personnel, and equipment for the MTOE units. This is the unit that will likely write the initial order for the MTOE unit to deploy on a moments notice. TDA units also usually have an inflated rank structure with fewer junior Soldiers and Officers than an MTOE unit. With an inflated rank structure NCOs cannot use the same leadership tactics as they did in an MTOE unit. You will likely alienate yourself and feel like you are being shunned as you stated above.

I am just leaving a TDA environment and our NCOs were highly valued members of the team! They still enforced the standards with mid-senior grade NCOs and Officers, but did so in a more tactful less directive way. In an MTOE unit NCOs are very directive and soldiers tend to listen as this is what we are trained to do.

I have now worked in a Special Forces Group, 82nd ABN DIV, an Army Service Component Command, and will soon work in a strictly Intelligence unit. Throughout the last 10+ years I have learned how unique each of unit was and how leadership styles differed between each due to many factors.

You must remain adaptive!

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 9 at 2015 5:28 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Sat, 09 May 2015 17:28:03 -0400

This argument to me is almost like OCONUS versus CONUS as well. CONUS units to me seem to do great at those complicated tasks such as rock painting, post police calls, polishing engine valve covers, and other great time wasters versus the OCONUS units that have real missions.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made May 9 at 2015 9:38 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sat, 09 May 2015 21:38:39 -0400

I worked for MTMC (now SDDC) as a SSG and then with DLA as a MSG.... Both units were glad to have me and in both instances I was coming out of the 101st. I had to temper my manner of approach; however, I had to do the same thing going from light to mech Infantry. Tailor the message to the audience and the unit mission. When you approach the situation in this manner... You will normally have good results.... I have at least!

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 10 at 2015 1:19 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 10 May 2015 01:19:58 -0400

MTOE is widely considered the cool place in my former branch, and TDA more of the "pogue" world. Not my opinion, just a comment. That said, both organizations exist for a reason. I have been at the tip of the spear and base of the spear; it all matters.

Discipline issues I have also seen in TDA units vs. MTOE.

The most important thing MSG Private RallyPoint Member, as I am sure you know, is that you have to grow wherever you are planted. That is, do your best wherever you are.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made May 20 at 2015 1:36 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 20 May 2015 13:36:52 -0400

Table of distribution and allowances (TDA) and Modified Table Of Organization & Equipment (MTOE) units serve the Army very well. Of note TDA organizations are responsible for designing Table Of Organization & Equipment (TOE) and they also are the ones which take into consideration units requests to modify MTOEs. I concur with SSG Private RallyPoint Member', COL Charles Williams', and 1SG Cameron M. Wesson's responses.
I served OCONUS in MTOE units and CONUS for TDA organizations. Considering the first 10 years or so of my commissioned service were spent in infantry MTOE and TOE I found discipline, morale and respect as well as treatment to be similar and of the highest caliber.
Later I served in TDA organizations supporting HQDA directly. These organizations tended to be more rank heavy - i.e. when a E-1 or E-2 or a 2LT was walking through the corridors of the Pentagon it attracted much more attention than flag officers.
TDA in the training base tended to teat NCOs very well - especially Drill Sergeants and instructors at other schools - since my "tactical" TDA experience is focused on Benning and Leavenworth my experience is limited.
I have always done my best to treat the NCOs who worked under me and alongside me with the respect they deserve and reinforce that with their subordinates.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Sep 11 at 2018 8:53 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:53:39 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Having been that NCO in two separate TDA units... one MTMC (now SDDC) and the other being DLA... I was never looked down upon.

I would offer that those NCOs that I knew that "felt that way" usually missed one important aspect of the unit... which I had to explain to them... was that of the units mission... and that rank didn't make them right or smarter. In MTMC I had a MSG trying to tell me that I reported to him... only for my MAJ to remind him that "He was my boss" and that he (I) took orders for him... and to but the hell out." What he was guilty of was not understanding the dynamics of the mission the unit had... and that it was not a hierarchal unit.

That said... just because you have the rank... doesn't mean you understood the mission... and most importantly... how to get the mission done. Just because you outrank SPC Smith or SGT Jones... doesn't mean they aren't more capable than you are in performing the jobs required to accomplish the missions. If you want hierarchal structure that is rigid... stay in an MTOE unit... if you want to see a flat organization that can be quickly adaptive and flexible.... watch a good TDA unit.

As a SFC/MSG in DLA... I was more or less the NCOIC for a COL lead organization. I was one of 7 NCO (Army and USAF) and only 12 enlisted.... 8 officers (Army, Navy and USAF) and about 30 civilians. I learned what each sections missions were... and how I could support them.... not how I could be there leader. I would argue that our discipline (including the civilians) was as good as the discipline in my line company in the 101st... simply we had clear expectations that we would be professionals to each other regardless of the rank... or cohort. Did we have challenges... absolutely... but they were managed.

WRT your "positive impact" I would ask you to ask yourself a serious question... and be honest... "Is the positive impact you want to have on the unit supportive/complimentary of the unit mission? or is it your ego getting in the way?" I'm not judging... just asking you to ask the question.

While I love to road march…. still at 53 years young... taking the 10 Army personnel (when I was in DLA) and doing a 12 miler was being done for what reason? A few went with me on my 4 and 6 mile RM... but it was voluntary... not mandatory. On the other hand... having a range day for the entire organization where familiarization and zeroing... maybe even paper qualification... might build esprite-de-corps. While 0600 PT is a standard in the line unit... maybe 1500 gathering at the gym might be a better options for the mission... and then offer admin time to the civilians and see who shows up. Might surprise you.

Lastly... guard against the ego and be the humble NCO that others want to emulate.... not avoid.

Well... that's my 2 cents.

Peace Out

Response by LTC John Griscom made Dec 13 at 2018 9:12 AM

LTC John Griscom — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:12:23 -0500

A Table of distribution and allowances (TDA) is an authorization document developed for non-doctrinal units that prescribes the organizational structure and the personnel and equipment requirements and authorizations of a military unit to perform a specific mission for which there is no appropriate TOE. TDA organizations normally do not have a defined wartime mission.
The Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE) is a document that prescribes the wartime mission, capabilities, organizational structure, and mission essential personnel and equipment requirements for military units. It portrays the doctrinal modernization path (MODPATH) of a unit over time from the least modernized configuration (base TOE) to the most modernized (objective TOE).
The Base Table of Organization and Equipment (BTOE) is an organization design based on doctrine and equipment currently available. It is the lowest common denominator of modernization and identifies the mission essential wartime requirements for personnel and equipment based upon equipment common to all units of a given type organization.
The Objective table of organization and equipment (OTOE) is a fully modernized, doctrinally sound organizational design that sets the goal for planning and programming of the Army's force structure and supporting acquisition systems primarily in the last year of the program objective memorandum and the extended planning annex.
A Modification table of organization and equipment (MTOE) is an authorization document that prescribes the modification of a basic TOE necessary to adapt it to the needs of a specific unit or type of unit.
Each TOE is identified by a unique number that should remain the same throughout the life of the organization. TOE developers, in coordination with the TRADOC force designers, are responsible for developing the proposed TOE number. USAFMSA RDD approves the TOE number.