What are your "best practices" for handling disrespectful, too comfortable subordinates?

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 20:29:01 -0500

When I commissioned out of the enlisted ranks, I wanted to make sure I stayed humble. I was the first to admit that ensigns were noobs, and that there was nothing about my rank that granted me or my ideas some high status. "Hell," I joked once on my first week aboard to my division, "I still need directions to find the head."

Although good in a lot of ways -- folks came to me with problems I don't they would have otherwise -- there were huge setbacks I struggled to handle. Over and over again, my presence would make my Sailors get *very* comfortable in how they spoke to me. I once had an argument with one of my E-6s after he explained to me how he decided whose orders he followed. In his logic, he didn't actually have to listen to someone unless they were simultaneously older, higher ranking, paid more, and had been in longer. Miss one of the blocks, and he doesn't really have to do what you say. Again, Ensign Me actually allowed this to become a debatable back and forth until it occurred to my LCPO that we could be heard on the other end of the barge.

Now I teach leadership and ethics at an NROTC Unit, and I tell these tales to my midshipmen as "what NOT to do". It's not a problem for me now because, frankly, I know what I'm doing, but I still get the cocky Sailor who decides to debate the merits of rank with me. How do you folks handle these things (i.e., your people growing so comfortable with you that they cross the line of professionalism and start explaining how they don't *actually* have to follow your orders)? Shake your head and walk away? Blow up on them? Respectfully explain the concept to them, but chance allowing it to be a debate when it is, in fact, not up for debate? I've found my own path forward, but I wanted to hear some thoughts from this community that I might take back to my midshipmen as "diverse words of wisdom".

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2021 9:45 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 21:45:44 -0500

I am prior enlisted too. I have had my share of issues. Whenever I come into a leadership position I explain how we will operate together. I also explain that there will be times we can discuss our actions and then there will be times I expect them to follow my orders. I did have a situation to where I lost faith in a subordinate leader. I went to the senior leader in my company and informed him that I wanted him relieved. He was moved shortly there after. You can't let that fester. You are running into some systematic issues here. He fails to understand his role in the military. He is there to lead his enlisted service members and follow the orders of those appointed over him. The issue is once you lost the confidence of those you work with you won't get that back. Even if you do they will resent you. It's a dangerous place. I know I am in the Army but this is wild to me. As a Captain in the Army we are company commanders. I have only seen once instance where an enlisted Soldier contested his commander. It was a toxic relationship. If this was happening I would try to have a professional counseling session. Do not do a heart to heart. You are not his peer. You are the leader. When you have a heart to heart sometimes you can empower the other party to feel like they are your equal. You are a team but you are the team leader. He has to understand how your team works. If he continues to cross the line I would relieve them.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Feb 7 at 2021 9:50 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 21:50:55 -0500

COL Private RallyPoint Member Would this be RP content for you to comment on?

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Feb 7 at 2021 10:27 PM

LT Brad McInnis — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 22:27:23 -0500

Sorry, but I guess it was different when I was in. I was prior, too, and if a sailor came put me and told me his "criteria" for who he would follow orders from, it would have taken me less than a nano-second to grab his CPO and get him in the bilge with a toothbrush scrubbing !

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2021 10:49 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Feb 2021 22:49:43 -0500

Find his LCPO, he should handle it. If not the CMC will. A lot of the Chops, Chengs, and Bos'ns on amphibs I sailed on were seasoned Mustangs, and they had a low tolerance for BS like that PO1. Better to let the Chiefs handle it IMO. Argument ends as a loss for you. If he's a hard case, XOI and Mast are in his future.

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 8 at 2021 7:44 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 07:44:28 -0500

Marine Corps Infantry input here. I fully expect someone to tell me it is to "draconian."

In your anecdote, your first mistake was to joke about your own competence/confidence. That does NOT mean you should not be self-deprecating, humble, or unwilling to learn. But if a young leader publicly calls his competence/confidence into question why should his subordinates follow him into combat, where even if he does everything right, someone may die. An officer's integrity, competence, and authority are not appropriate subject matter for that officer's humor. For his subordinates it will most definitely be a subject for their humor. As long as it doesn't take place with intent to insult the officer to his face, so what.

Had an NCO/SNCO in my chain of command publicly or privately questioned the legitimacy of my authority when I issued a legal order, there would have been a private, short, one-sided conversation with that NCO/SNCO locked at the position of attention. I would say

"Petty Officer ______ this is your one and only warning. The standard is immediate, intelligent obedience. If you believe there are unintended consequences to my order that I have not foreseen, by all means respectfully and tactfully bring them up, as the situation allows. How to do something may be up for debate, my authority is not. Dismissed."

Any response but "Aye, aye sir," an about face and smartly marching off would result in a counseling in his performance jacket. Any "attitude," public or private, at a later date would result in a counseling in his performance jacket. Any further unwarranted breach in following orders would result in a charge sheet.

I would like to address the phrase immediate intelligent obedience. Part and parcel of leadership AND followership is understanding that the senior and/or subordinate may have some information that the other does not. This is particularly true in urgent or impromptu situations [i.e., combat crap sandwich]. A subordinate that does not alert the senior to probable unintended consequence and lets the senior screw up to put the senior in "his place" is not being obedient, and furthermore is being disloyal to the unit and to the troops. A senior who does not learn from and take heed of good advice/warnings from his subordinates is a damn fool, destined for a short tenure as a military officer.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Feb 8 at 2021 10:54 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 10:54:02 -0500

This doesn't really answer the question, but it does, in a way...Don't let them get too comfortable.
I made it very clear there was a difference in personal and professional. My Soldiers could always come and talk to me personally - behind closed doors, and when the mission permitted (usually during breaks or after hours). If they wanted to talk to Casey, instead of SFC O'Mally, they had to let me know, and we could figure out when a good time was. Any personal issue that was big enough that it could not wait for a convenient time to be discussed was no longer personal, it was now professional, because it obviously impacted mission readiness.
I also made it clear that if their personal problem required a professional solution (i.e. they reported a sexual assault, which I am REQUIRED to report, or crimes, or other issues which actually impacted mission), I would counsel them as Casey, but I would absolutely act on it as SFC O'Mally.
Aside from that, in my professional capacity, I always made sure that my Soldiers understood that I issued both orders and suggestions, and there was a definitive tone of voice used for each. Orders were not up for debate (but my immediate subordinates (i.e. not random private) could talk to me offline and see if there was a better way, or let me know why it was a bad idea). Suggestions, on the other hand, WERE open for debate, but I ultimately had the last call.
Additonally, whenever possible, I didn't make the decision, and pushed it down the chain as far as I could. There is no reason I have to tell a Soldier where to eat lunch, or which college to enroll in. I can offer advice, when asked, but utlimately, I preferred to give the Soldier (and first line leader) as much personal authority and responsibility as I could, so that when I DID issue orders, they knew it was because I was serious, and not just trying to run every aspect of their lives.
Finally, I tried real hard to participate ion projects, events, and activities in which one of my subordinates was in charge. If one of my squads is going out to do some individual training on (for instance) first aid, I would tag along as a trainee. I would let that squad leader run the training, with no interference from me (as long as he wasn't training the wrong procedures, like using CPR to treat choking), and just be "one of the guys." This helped to A) keep the squad leaders on their toes, because they never knew if I was going to show up to training, B) let the Privates know that I was paying attention and cared about the training they got, and C) let everyone see that I was not a control freak and was humble enough to be given instruction by my subordinates.

I believe that through that combination, I was able to show that I was approachable, but professional. I never had any issues of subordinates trying to undermine or ignore me (aside from one, but that was an individual issue - he ignored EVERYONE, and was eventually chapterred out of the Army). I also consistently had Soldiers willing to come to me with both personal and professional problems, and subordinates discussing planning or execution shortfalls in a professional manner both before and after mission execution.

That is not to say everything was perfect - there WERE heated conversations from time to time. There were a couple cases where I found out about problems too late because the Soldiers didn't know yet if they could come to me (all of those were when I was new to a position and to the Soldiers). But, for the most part, it seemed to walk a good line between being approachable and being "in charge."

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 8 at 2021 4:40 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 16:40:40 -0500

When I became a chef, I fired a cook at random to establish dominance. All the other cooks fell in line.

Response by PO2 Richard Taylor made Feb 9 at 2021 2:53 PM

PO2 Richard Taylor — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 14:53:36 -0500

The responsibility of leadership is that you're there to earn respect, not friendship.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Feb 9 at 2021 3:25 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 15:25:46 -0500

Mustangs always got respect, imo it was well earned. This is where maybe the Sr NCOs failed by not putting out the word. Your a noob O1 not a noob to the Navy, world of difference.

Response by SSG Timothy Stevenson made Feb 6 at 2022 2:44 PM

SSG Timothy Stevenson — Sun, 06 Feb 2022 14:44:44 -0500

Wall to wall counseling.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Feb 6 at 2022 10:50 PM

SFC Don Ward — Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:50:51 -0500

There were several times I brought a disrespectful serviceman/woman to my desk, laid out a DA 4845 Counselling form and pen, and told said soldier there were two ways we could handle their attitude. The second way was for them to have a Federal Felony conviction and find themselves on the street with no benefits, including their GI Bill. Couched in those terms, they usually saw the light.