What are your thoughts on NCOs hanging out with Soldiers after work?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:04:03 -0400

Response by SGT Matthew Reid made Jul 1 at 2016 12:20 AM

SGT Matthew Reid — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:20:31 -0400

Absolutely nothing wrong with it as long as your soldiers do not think you are buddies after a few beers. If they cross the line of respect, never more. I hope that helps.

Response by SSG John Erny made Jul 1 at 2016 12:26 AM

SSG John Erny — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:26:22 -0400

For the most part is a horrible idea! My best friend got his E-5 and I was a E-4. I was spotted having a beer with him by an E-7, with other senoior NCO's at the Rock' ola Caffee~ It was something like this. SGT Q, Sp.., Errr. CPL Erny. Funny thing happened, my name on the duty rosters were then CPL, despite note having the rank. I think it was a warno.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Jul 1 at 2016 12:30 AM

MSG Pat Colby — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:30:26 -0400

Not a problem at all hanging out. Many times during the day, a Leader doesn't have time to explain the purpose of specific required actions by his team/section. Having a bit of a break with your crew lets people ask questions in a relaxed setting. Hanging out is also a good time to show your "human side" and really get to know your Soldiers. Think about it, how can you know your Soldiers if you never talk WITH them (as opposed to AT them)???

Problems will arise when alcohol fuels the conversation(s). Never fails. If there is Alcohol, stay within your peer groups.

Response by Nathan Weiss made Jul 1 at 2016 12:31 AM

Nathan Weiss — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:31:35 -0400

I think they should hang out.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jul 1 at 2016 12:35 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:35:05 -0400

There is a line which is not crossed. An NCO getting together with the guys once in a while is nothing wrong. You'd be surprised how much you can learn about your guys after hours this way. It's on the NCO to know where the line is and when not to cross it. It is also up to the NCO to let the guys know even though they are having a beer, coffee or what, it doesn't mean they are close buddies, but the NCO and the soldiers are a team.

Response by SSG John Erny made Jul 1 at 2016 12:37 AM

SSG John Erny — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:37:40 -0400

What is a go? OK listen up! We all want to watch the big game, it is on in the day room! Smack talk about the loosing team is a go! No smack talk to fellow soldiers or rank!

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 1 at 2016 12:47 AM

SSG Mark Franzen — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:47:21 -0400

I don't think its a Good Idea Because when it Comes to you being charge of them it's going to be hard that your there Friends They Won't take you seriously and you could be in a real big Mess. Besides your a NCO and they are lower grades than you so that what see I never Done it.

Response by SSG Kristopher Rigdon made Jul 1 at 2016 12:48 AM

SSG Kristopher Rigdon — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:48:55 -0400

NCOs with his solders, or NCOs with lower rank solders form another battalion.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 1 at 2016 12:53 AM

SSG Mark Franzen — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:53:24 -0400

I would also read FM7-22.7 SGT Branch If you need any other help I am always there For You.
SSG MARK FRANZEN

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Jul 1 at 2016 1:11 AM

MSG Pat Colby — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 01:11:40 -0400

We had a Chaplain (LTC) assigned to our unit and he was always the one of the first ones to get to the Club/bar and normally the last to leave. He would nurse no more than two beers over the course of the entire evening. Damn that had to be warm ass beer..... Anyway, I talked to him about his routine and he NAILED it. Nothing makes a person talk more than beer/liquor. His theory was to show that he was there to listen and he was an average guy just like everyone else. It worked. Everyone knew and trusted him. From the Privates to the COL's..

THAT is knowing and doing your Job.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 1:32 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 01:32:18 -0400

The moment I saw your current unit, I knew why you're asking - table time.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 2:00 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 02:00:12 -0400

It has it's place. This is how you really get to know your Soldiers, and often how you pick up something that isn't right. There is a line, of course. So long as you don't cross it and maintain professionalism, "hanging out" with the Joes is good leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 5:29 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 05:29:48 -0400

In my opinion, that is really no big issue because at the end of the day 1. They are human beings, 2. These are the same guys and girls that will have back in war time. 3. These soldiers won't be in the military forever. I understand that the army has policies about the higher hanging with lower rank personnel. Back in my active duty infantry days in the 90's, no matter rank structure we would all hang out and drink, but at the end of the day they still were our supervisors and we would still get our ass smoked if we got out of line. My advice to you is keep a boundary regardless; especially if that soldier or soldiers are part of your chain of command (platoon). I'm not saying you can't hang out from time to time, but when it becomes a daily routine then you officially crossed over to the buddy system. Now since you and soldier became good buddies, now he or she can use that as leverage to get damn near anything they want. I've seen this with my own eyes. Just be careful.......

Response by SGT David T. made Jul 1 at 2016 7:42 AM

SGT David T. — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 07:42:06 -0400

It all depends on the maturity of the Soldiers. I have done it with no issues because I always made it clear that work is work and off work is off work. As a NCO you need to ensure that you don't show any favoritism to those you hang out with.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 8:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 08:10:43 -0400

There's lines people shouldn't cross... And every Soldier & every NCO may have their own lines. If it's not making things inappropriate, then people know their lines and how not to blur them.

1- alcohol. More than one then it's time for NCO & Soldier to be done.

2- Battles. They're not our battle buddies. We're not their FriendCO.

3- Team. We are on the same team. It's good for a team to bond together at work and off work. We're Soldiers 24/7 and on that team 24/7.

An NCO should know their lines though and not cross them.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Jul 1 at 2016 8:53 AM

CW4 Angel C. — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 08:53:04 -0400

This is an old subject: call it "wrong"!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 9:33 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 09:33:42 -0400

Team/SQD/PLT event all day! I so do them as much as possible. Get to know the boys, hell there could be a kid that was a professional Cook or bad ass on the grill and smoker. Then the other kid is trying to destroy the PSG at ping pong hell idk. But it's a good time and a good way to build cohesion to see them in their natural more relaxed habitat.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 9:49 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 09:49:07 -0400

There must always be a healthy "distance" or "arms length" maintained with subordinates in any after hours unofficial activity. It should an extremely rare occasion meant to show them you're not a fuddy-duddy but never anything that could compromise your authority. General rule told to our Battalion from a great commander is that an after hours activity should never include anyone below the rank you senior rate on evaluations. There should be a minimum of three plus yourself. The people should be those you rate or senior rate, not random NCOs or Officers. First names should NEVER enter the picture and when it does you know you crossed a line. You should never consume more than two drinks. You should not stay more than 60-90 minutes. It should be in a location your senior rater

Response by SGT C Mendez made Jul 1 at 2016 9:54 AM

SGT C Mendez — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 09:54:18 -0400

There has to be a balance. Just make sure that the soldiers understand the two dynamics.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 1 at 2016 10:23 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:23:47 -0400

There is no reason to develop such relationships, provided there was not a relationship pre-promotion. In that case it should be very discrete and leadership should be aware. If the NCO is going out with the Team as a Team building event and he or she remains in control this would be a good thing, as long as the Soldiers understand the intent.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Jul 1 at 2016 10:35 AM

GySgt Joe Strong — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:35:50 -0400

Completely context dependent.
A new E-4 needs to be VERY careful with this, especially if a unit change didn't happen soon after.
In other contexts, I.e. a Joint Unit, Professionalism reigned in my experience and we hung out across all ranks. Work time/ Fun Time divide was always maintained and those who couldn't do this were quickly identified as unsuitable for the assignment and relocated.
In general though, you need enough exposure to know your Troops, doesn't mean they need a complete picture of you though. A degree of separation needs to be maintained.

Response by PO2 Mike Vignapiano made Jul 1 at 2016 10:37 AM

PO2 Mike Vignapiano — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:37:00 -0400

I believe it is very difficult to maintain that line that everyone knows SHOULD be in place, especially when someone is promoted with half or more time left at their current duty station. I mean, it's difficult to be hanging with a bunch of guys for months and suddenly in one day, you are now on the other side of that line and cannot hang out at each other's rooms or off post apartments anymore.
If done correctly, this socialization between NCO's and non-NCO's can build a better team with higher morale and better communication.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Jul 1 at 2016 10:38 AM

SFC Randy Purham — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:38:36 -0400

Nothing wrong with it as long as the relationship between everyone is understood and respected. It also depends on the occasion. How do lower level (SFC and below) are suppose to get to know their soldiers outside of work i.e. hobbies, lifestyle, and things that make them tick or happy, if you don't take the time to spend with them out of the uniform? Just talking about it at work is lazy leadership and highly ineffective.

In my opinion, if the leader can't establish those boundaries and maintain the self-discipline to act accordingly, then they may need to find a new line of work.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 10:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:50:48 -0400

That young PFC in this pic looks a tad uncomfortable in this photo-op.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 10:52 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:52:33 -0400

As long as you know where that line is that is not to be crossed.....and your Joes know and understand that line as well, then there should not be an issue. "Should" being the key operative word.

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made Jul 1 at 2016 12:20 PM

SPC John Lebiecki — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:20:44 -0400

It is the job of the leader to assess whether or not it is best interest to be hanging out of their soldiers after duty hours.

That leader needs to be able to draw the line on what is okay and what is not (IE: will I say or do something that will be per sieved as immoral or unethical or even against the law.)

That soldier needs to be able to separate personal and professional time.

If either one of the items listed above is not viable, then things need to stay on the professional side at all times.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 12:47 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:47:15 -0400

Simply put, NCOs are soldiers, too. A little "liberty" comaraderie is welcomed and, sometimes, necessary. But too much of it could prove to be an undoing of the equally necessary authoritative realm of NCOs. The Army mission always comes first, and must be protected and unchallenged.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jul 1 at 2016 12:58 PM

PO1 Jack Howell — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:58:16 -0400

I'm not sure if the Army or Air Force has a policy for this, but in the Navy, we would call this fraternization. In OPNAVINST 5370.2C (Navy Fraternization Policy), it says that, "Fraternization"
is the term traditionally used to identify personal relationships which contravene the customary bounds of acceptable senior-subordinate relationships. Although it has most commonly been applied to officer-enlisted relationships, fraternization also includes improper relationships and social interaction between officer members as well as between enlisted members, regardless of the service affiliation of the other officer or enlisted member, including members of foreign military
services.
Any NCOs that are doing this need to be given written counseling that includes the policy in question and the UCMJ articles that are being violated (Article 92 and Article 134). The counseling paperwork should also include the most recent date that fraternization training was given as well as a copy of any paperwork related to the training.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Jul 1 at 2016 12:59 PM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:59:11 -0400

Heck, our officers would party with us. And that involved consumption of those vegetable beverages (hops...barley...malt...) so having the upper enlisted around was nothing special. Now from a club perspective, my era (1985 - 1989) had an enlisted club (E-1 to E-3), Petty Officers' club (E-4 to E-6) , Chiefs' club (E-7 to E-9) and then an officer's club (O-1 to O-9) and the waiters and staff were militant about keeping them separate. But off base, there were no really obscure rules. Then again, we sailors could drink in our barracks rooms...

Fraternization wasn't really an issue as women weren't allowed on combat ships so there wasn't a lot of shipyard female sailors until later in my career. The only female service folk we saw were Marines and they tended to go to the Marine clubs/functions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 1:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 13:19:55 -0400

Viewing this from the National Guard side, it is extremely common. However, it is likely that the NCO recruited that new private and they work a civilian job together. The private might even be the NCO's civilian supervisor. SGM Dawson says it best with what he said about the line not to be crossed. It is important the NCO knows this line is not HIS line, but all other observers. Perception is quite often reality.

Response by PO3 Brett White made Jul 1 at 2016 3:45 PM

PO3 Brett White — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 15:45:55 -0400

Work together, 'relax' together. A couple of my Div O's and Chiefs would stop by the apartment each time we returned to home port to have a few soda's. Always on a first name basis off ship, and always sir or Chief onboard. Never an issue, maturity I reckon.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 4:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 16:22:52 -0400

I beleive it's alright but stuff after work stays after work. I Have been in situations one night knocking back a drink with some people from work and the next morning be smoked by one. Never should work be muddied with it though. I have also been on the opposite end. Balance is the key and respect even after work.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jul 1 at 2016 5:02 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:02:14 -0400

Do not cross that line. Getting together is fine and well. But be careful of how far you take it, you can't get your reputation back.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 1 at 2016 5:37 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 17:37:15 -0400

I don't do it. Being that it might be unprofessional depending at what actions are being conducted perception is worth a thousand words. I also have my own life. I have a family to take care of who needs me. On another note, my Soldiers need a chance to self develop with any of my influence; they need to be their own person. I am not saying my job is a leader from 9AM to 5PM but I need "me" time and family time. I have met people who don't agree to that but they were miserable individuals. I actually can't wait to leave work but when I'm there I give 110 percent.

Response by SGT Brian Wall made Jul 1 at 2016 7:49 PM

SGT Brian Wall — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 19:49:44 -0400

Depending on the situation. If the whole squad or team is involved and in public it's all good. However if you and one soldier are by yourselfs at a private residence I don't feel that is a going to have a good outcome.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 9:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 21:24:25 -0400

There is a time and a place. I work in small team tactics, it is important for everyone, from the top to the bottom, to be in sync with one another so we spend time with each other outside of work. That being said, it is always everyone together. I do not spend time with my guys one on one. Anytime we do something outside of work, it is as a group. Also, the guys know that when we are working, it is exactly that. I am not there BUDDY. I am their boss and their mentor.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 7:25 AM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:25:40 -0400

As long as everyone is invited it promotes intersection relationships that help NCOs know there soldiers and build repore

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Jul 2 at 2016 11:35 AM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 11:35:06 -0400

One of my soldiers got promoted to SGT. I warned him about "hanging out' with the spc and below. He said it would not be a problem as they were truly "friends" and were adult enough to know the difference between work and social lives. Not more than a week later the so called "friends" were using this "friendship" for personal gains at work. There is a reason for rules and regulations.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 11:49 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 11:49:48 -0400

I think it can be a good thing to hang out and have a beer or whatever with your guys. Some of the best NCOs I have had were people I would also see on the weekend or off shift. From a ncos perspective though, I think you have to be very careful who you choose to do that with. It has the potential to open a can worms you want nothing to do with.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 11:58 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 11:58:58 -0400

There is a line, and it gets blurrier in the reserves. Having a drink with the boys? Good to go. Taking shots until you close the bar? Crossing it. Poker night with some cigars? Sure, under certain circumstances. Strip club? Crossing the line. The point is to build camaraderie, not pretend like you are 21 forever. Once you make it to a certain rank and you have a certain amount of time in service, you shouldn't be drowning in debauchery with the boys, and you shouldn't want to either.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 12:06 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 12:06:31 -0400

I think there are some joes that are extremely mature and if you hang out with them they will still respect the line of discipline and respect at work. That being said fraternization has no place in our Army. When I was assigned to my first unit in SEP 2008 my PSG said a phrase that I have always remembered. He told me "Perception is Reality" so if people know the Soldier is your buddy no matter how squared away they are it will always be perceived that any benefits he or she received is due to the friendship they possess. That will in turn lower moral, cohesiveness, and trust in the unit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 12:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 12:11:46 -0400

There is obviously a line which must not be crossed but to all the people saying no at all. What the heck do you think is going to happen when youre deployed to a COP spending every waking moment with the guys under you. The same thing.

Response by Sgt David Hesser made Jul 2 at 2016 12:46 PM

Sgt David Hesser — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 12:46:58 -0400

Wow times have changed, when I was in the Corp in the early 70,s it was not allowed or tolerated.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Jul 2 at 2016 1:16 PM

SPC James Anderson — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 13:16:44 -0400

Never had problems with this when I was active. Most guys "back then" knew the difference between on duty and off duty. Everyone hung out together. Thats how the bonds are made and thats how the NCO's/Officers really knew what was going on. But 0630 Monday morning "Charlie" became "SGT". If the guys involved had any military bearing they could switch instantly and there were no problems. How do we forget and ignore lessons taught throughout history? Interviewed German generals after WW2 frequently answered that National Guard Units were some of the fiercest fighting units. Why? Because you were fighting for people you knew. You were a lot less likely to abandon the line if someone you have know for years was next to you. The military has turned into more of a social experiment the last 10 years then a war fighting force. We just keep finding ways to degrade our potential greatness.

Response by SGT Neil Doty made Jul 2 at 2016 1:18 PM

SGT Neil Doty — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 13:18:21 -0400

Nothing wrong with it I used to tell my squad that I was going to be at a place if they happen to come out we can have a drink or two together but that's as far as it went and it only happened every now and then not all the time.

Response by Cpl John DeConti made Jul 2 at 2016 1:18 PM

Cpl John DeConti — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 13:18:31 -0400

I think you can bring the guys out as long as they are all included or invited... Ensure you conduct yourself in somewhat of a professional manner (I know beer is usually involved). But bringing out your guys can be used as a moral booster..

Response by SPC Chuck Surrett made Jul 2 at 2016 2:08 PM

SPC Chuck Surrett — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 14:08:05 -0400

It all depends on the people involved.some people can handle it other people can't. When I was in there was a couple of nco's and one officer that myself and a few other guys would get together with from time to time. We would drink, have dinner or go do whatever rank was a non issue we joked talked smack to each other just had Fun that was off duty time. When we were on duty we acted like soldiers no one ever tried to take advantage of it. I always respected those nco's more than I did the nco's that wouldn't give you the time of day if you ran into off duty. Trust and respect go a long way

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Jul 2 at 2016 4:01 PM

Capt Jeff S. — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 16:01:25 -0400

Keep it professional. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 5:37 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 17:37:07 -0400

I would say it depends on the type of team you have. In general it could be a bad idea. I'm lucky enough to have a generational gap wide enough we can't because there would be nothing to talk about. I did invite the team to the annual BBQ at my place.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Jul 2 at 2016 5:53 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 17:53:54 -0400

NCO's should do some social events with their people. It keeps them involved and in the know about what's going on. I've seen NCO's do dinners in their home, BBQs on base and other get togethers. As long as they engage, watch and learn from it, its a great thing for unit moral. Business owners do these things too for the same reasons.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 11:09 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:09:36 -0400

AR 600-20 outlines inappropriate relationships between enlisted and officers AND jr enlisted and non commissioned officers. But from a Soldiers position, if I hang out with my nco, let's say my first line, and I go to his house and realize he's a complete shit bag, or were buddy buddy then I go to work and he tries to be serious but I take him for a joke it's bad for the environment. Now all the E4 and below are going to treat him the same way. Or if I know he's a shit bag for whatever reason, I tell everyone now they all disrespect him

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Jul 2 at 2016 11:59 PM

SMSgt William Hassiepen — Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:59:18 -0400

This happens all the time, when I was in the Navy NCOs frequently went on liberty with those that worked for them. When I was in the Air Force, the same thing, in fact in the Guard unit I was in after Saturday drill everyone in the command lost went to a place called the 76ers officers included

Response by SFC Jimmy Phillips made Jul 3 at 2016 3:27 AM

SFC Jimmy Phillips — Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:27:05 -0400

I have never shared a beer with a soldier, but I have done a lot of extra curricular activities such as paint ball, kayaking, climbing and repelling. Just need to know where the line is and make sure they do also.

Response by Cpl Dan Klein made Jul 3 at 2016 9:56 AM

Cpl Dan Klein — Sun, 03 Jul 2016 09:56:40 -0400

That's BS.... You respect the man, not the rank. If you respect the man, you'll do what's told regardless. If you don't respect the man, he'll be the last person you'll be seen with on libo...

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Jul 3 at 2016 11:42 AM

SFC Terry Murphy — Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:42:21 -0400

I was a young Sergeant in the same platoon that I was a Specialist, After work I would still hang out and drink a few with the friends that had been my peers before my promotion. To them, I was Sgt. Murphy during the day and Terry or Murph at night. One day I was talking with my Plt Leader and one of my soldiers came up to tell me something. He said "hey Murph" and immediately dropped into the front leaning rest and started knocking out pushups. He knew he screwed up! When you have the respect of your soldiers, you can spend time with them off duty and still be their leader during the day. If they lose that respect, I don't think you can.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2016 6:12 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Jul 2016 06:12:07 -0400

Keep it professional or the senior person may find their career potential limited. And keep your leaders informed of your plans.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jul 4 at 2016 11:44 AM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 04 Jul 2016 11:44:27 -0400

Not a problem in my mind as long as everyone realizes there are limits and lines that should not be crossed. I was one of 5 officers at a 12 month remote assignment that consisted of approximately 65 enlisted and 5 officers. We had one joint club which was the only on site opportunity for relaxation. Obviously unless I wanted to be labeled that officer who doesn't care about his people, I participated in as many activities as possible at the club and this usually included drinking together. We all participated in dart, foosball, shuffleboard etc. tournaments, as well as Betamax/VHS movie nights without issue. While I'm sure some of the parties became more boisterous after the last officer left the club we never had any fraternization issues.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Jul 5 at 2016 7:20 AM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 07:20:14 -0400

If they're in the COC it isn't a good idea unless there is an understanding right off the bat that at work the NCO is the boss. You need that line in the sand.

Response by MSgt Dennis Bailey made Jul 5 at 2016 7:23 AM

MSgt Dennis Bailey — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 07:23:28 -0400

If you want your subordinates to come to you before problems become PROBLEMS, they have to know you well enough to trust you...to know you are still their leader, but that you have been there done that, and have solutions. That fine line, is where you don't allow THEM to become too familiar. Be the last to arrive, and the first to leave.

Response by CSM Steve Slocum made Jul 5 at 2016 9:05 AM

CSM Steve Slocum — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:05:49 -0400

Hanging out with the Joes is NOT good leadership!! There are occasions where its appropriate for you to spend time with your team or squad etc but as a general rule "familiarity breeds contempt" especially where alcohol is present. Set a good example, speak one on one with your Soldiers and Lead from the front!!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:20 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:20:50 -0400

Being in the professional organization that we are in, we should all be able to seperate our personal and professional life's. That being said, as long as it does not effect the chain of command or persuade an NCOs decision on things such as punishment/ratings/training ops and such, why not send some time with your troops. That really allows you to get to know them and helps you as an NCO better lead them!

Response by GySgt James Marchinke made Jul 5 at 2016 9:39 AM

GySgt James Marchinke — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:39:49 -0400

Should not happen unless a company/Platoon event where other NCOs and non-coms are present; organized event not friendly event

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:55:24 -0400

We used to call it team building. It's a great way to form and firm bonds. We were able to maintain a semblance of bearing and the lines between NCOs and junior enlisted were well defined. The fun time didn't adversely effect "work relationships", it cemented them.

Response by GySgt William C. White made Jul 5 at 2016 9:59 AM

GySgt William C. White — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 09:59:44 -0400

NCOs should not hands out with non NCO's what happens is you start to develop a sense that they are on the same level and that could affect when that NCO has to give a order during a scary and hard time.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Jul 5 at 2016 10:20 AM

SSgt Dan Montague — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:20:05 -0400

We had a 1stSgt that hung around a few select Lcpl and below. They quickly became untouchable and morale over the issue dropped. In the military we build a strong bond with each other. But there is also levels of leadership that need to keep it professional all the time.

Response by SGT John Thomas made Jul 5 at 2016 10:35 AM

SGT John Thomas — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:35:50 -0400

An NCO should make a brief appearance at a gathering but should not party with their soldiers and especially not get drunk. Obviously this is even more important where female subordinates are involved.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Jul 5 at 2016 10:38 AM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:38:31 -0400

i could care less, there's on duty vs. off duty. These men and women are willingly to bleed and die with or beside you, having a drink with them every so often is no big deal...

Response by MSG Michael Murphy made Jul 5 at 2016 10:40 AM

MSG Michael Murphy — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:40:20 -0400

I believe hanging out with the troops should be held at a semi-professional level, picnics dinners etc...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 10:43 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:43:41 -0400

It is really dependant upon the leaders and the troops. I have been in units where the no fraternization rule was iron clad and it actually caused more harm than good in terms of relations between unit personnel, and than again I have been in units where everybody was like one big family with common sense and things hummed like a well oiled machine. Yes, UCMJ issues at times arose for individual infractions, but the individuals involved were mature enough to accept their roles and responsibilities when it happened with a no harm no foul attitude. So, I guess from my own experiences I would have to say that if you have troops who know where the lines are drawn, than there is generally no problems. However, as a leader, you don't create an atmosphere that is either too lax or too restrictive and you damn sure better not cross the dating line within your own unit as that will get ugly no matter what.

Response by WO1 John Briery made Jul 5 at 2016 10:54 AM

WO1 John Briery — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:54:03 -0400

As long as everything is kept professional there should not be a problem. Getting to know your soldiers allows for team building. When I became an NCO my father (27 year retired NCO) told me "Take care of your men and they will take care of you. Do your job and set an example and hold them to the standard much like a father to a son." In 1990 I went from E-4 squad leader to an E-5 in an E-7 slot deployed to Desert Shield/ Storm. I was 22 years old. Every one of the soldiers I was leading had been my friend previously. I was lucky, most of them understood the professional line. Knowing what I knew about each of them allowed me to have insight into strengths and weaknesses that I would not have known about previously.

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made Jul 5 at 2016 11:20 AM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 11:20:20 -0400

Absolutely unacceptable. NCOs are not Joe's buddy. They are leaders, not drinking buddies. This was seriously frowned on 10 years ago, and a witnessed a few NCOs made into non-NCOs for making a habit out of fraternization.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 11:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 11:21:31 -0400

My belief is that if you have the respect of the individuals then it should not sway your position and could form a closet bond with the group. My thoughts are this is my family and I would die for them so why not be there as a mentor and as a friend.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jul 5 at 2016 11:23 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 11:23:14 -0400

As long as one is able to balance work and play, there shouldn't be a problem. Same applies to enlisted and officers.

Response by TSgt J.L. Brown Jr made Jul 5 at 2016 11:25 AM

TSgt J.L. Brown Jr — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 11:25:00 -0400

I think it's harder to discipline those that you hang out with, if something comes up and two people have to be disciplined it will look strange if the punishment is not the same. I had guys playing poker with young troops, they got mad at me for not joining. Just like what happened when the ex president walked on the the AG plane, do you really think they only talked of grand kids and golf? The mere presents of the ex president with the AG was improper, now think of our young troops, if its ok for the ex president, it's ok for us. Nope won't have it!

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Jul 5 at 2016 12:38 PM

SGT Alejandro Sarandrea — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 12:38:35 -0400

I'm old fashion on the question. NCOs should hang with NCOs, with the exception of those who are not in each others chain of command. Unless it's a BBQ thing that gives your soldiers a chance to meet your family and vice versa. But NCO and soldier hanging out at a night club or bar; I'm against that. Your an NCO 24/7 and if your present while your Joe has a brain fart you can find your rating in jeopardy at the bare minimum. Subordinates are your responsibility when they are in your line of sight. Hanging out with them after 1sg dismisses the formation is like volunteering at the staff duty desk every time you do it. Not recommended.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Jul 5 at 2016 12:56 PM

CPO David Sharp — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 12:56:01 -0400

Not a good idea. It will interfere with the Command and Control structure. There is a point when any interpersonal relationships can hamper the NCO thinking process and gives to the aspect of Fraternization and favoritism which will undermine the Command Structure.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 12:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 12:57:49 -0400

For team building activities it is okay. Be aware that NCO is still a professional and that you represent the military even off duty. I take my soldiers to lunch every now and again to be away from the game. This gives me an opportunity to get to know them better on a personal level so I can find opportunities to help them. I've even helped a couple of them move.

Response by SFC Michael Madigan made Jul 5 at 2016 1:03 PM

SFC Michael Madigan — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:03:10 -0400

Other than offical unit functions, an NCO should in no way be hanging out with the lower enlisted soldiers, it set a bad presidents, and major issues can will occur.

Response by SFC Fred Youngs made Jul 5 at 2016 1:11 PM

SFC Fred Youngs — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:11:31 -0400

As the Motor Sergeant of a Support Company and the Motor Sergeant of a Combat Engr. Co. and later an SP Arty. Btry. My 1st Motorpool was an E-5 and my last was an E-7. We worked long hours when in the rear and many Sat.'s. During good weather, I would Invite the Platoon with their Wives/Families and Girl Friends also Invited for Cookouts we always took up donations for the Meats and Sodas etc. Bring a dish to pass. Never had an Issue and we all knew the wives, girlfriends, and families, etc. even invited the Maintenance Off. and Co./BC Cdr. I think they showed 1 or 2 times only for a minute it showed the Platoon hey the Old Man can be a good guy. No He or she did or drink any alcohol and only stayed for the appropriate minute or two.
But as you know the Maintenance Crews are the outcasts and do not sometimes go by Military Decorum. I will say this I always addressed my soldiers by rank and they addressed me by rank. We were a tight nit group even after I had to Court Martial one my Soldiers but that is another story for another Forum not here.

Response by CPL Zach Spurloch made Jul 5 at 2016 1:18 PM

CPL Zach Spurloch — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:18:26 -0400

Why would that be a problem? How are you going to know anything about your troops unless you get to know them on every level and aspect. You cant demand much from someone you don't know, and especially from someone that doesn't know you, or respect you. On the other hand, there is a reason fraternization between officers and NCO's exist.

Response by SSG Mike Busovicki made Jul 5 at 2016 1:22 PM

SSG Mike Busovicki — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:22:59 -0400

Probably not a good idea. Even if nothing inappropriate is going on, it (A) leaves the door open for that possibility in the future and (B) puts an unprofessional appearance out there.

Have I had a beer or two after work with a supervisor before? Sure. But it wasn't something we made a habit of.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 1:26 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:26:00 -0400

There's a line. Getting to know Joe's or your nco is beneficial to learning their strengths and weakness, but if your relationship would stop you from sending them to do what needs to be done in a dangerous situation it's bad. Also I've seen guys get promoted or handed teams for no reason other than they bought drinks for their NCO's which is unacceptable

Response by SP6 Steven Cardoza made Jul 5 at 2016 1:36 PM

SP6 Steven Cardoza — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:36:16 -0400

well why not? but then again' depends on there interests, is it appropriate behavior?

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jul 5 at 2016 1:46 PM

TSgt James Carson — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 13:46:03 -0400

I don't really have a thought on this subject as I was so very bussy I didn't get proper time to even hang out much with my family. In and out of meetings. Councelling people on their duty performance that day. working extra hard to stay out of squadron politics. Making sure team leaders beneath me were briefed on essential items to keep production as smooth as possible, them when i had time go over property accounts and see what was needed to get more performance from my workcenter and keep the commanders out of my shop.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Jul 5 at 2016 2:02 PM

SSG Ken Gilder — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:02:19 -0400

It depends on the activity, and the professionalism of the people involved. At Ft. Huachuca, my unit had a bowling team. Most of us were mid grade enlisted (E-5 E-6), but we did have a 1LT on the team. At the bowling alley, it was "Jim" and "Ken." At work, it was "Lieutenant" and "Sergeant."

I do not remember who said it, but I do remember the quote: "If one is superior, he never thinks about it. If one is subordinate, he never forgets it."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 2:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:26:28 -0400

when something goes wrong? It used to be that when you got promoted to E5 you switched companies to alleviate the problems that could arise from this. As soon as they stopped doing this we started having problems. It's nice that you have friends, but in the military price try to take advantage of those with the rank.

Response by SFC Mamerto Perez made Jul 5 at 2016 2:35 PM

SFC Mamerto Perez — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:35:29 -0400

There is nothing wrong with hanging with lower enlisted as long as you don't lower your standarts.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 2:41 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:41:16 -0400

Due to long hours and hardships bonds are formed but there needs to exist a a separation between leaders and subordinates. Theoretically, you may have to order one of your soldiers to perform a dangerous activity. Cut the ambilical cord of letting your professional relationships tie into your personal relationships. I've seen countless examples of leaders assigning subordinate soldiers with less tasks because of their friendship. I've also witnessed senior leaders favoring the subordinates they drink with. You may think your relationship with your subordinate buddies is fine because when at work you're not buddies any more, but it's an unhealthy relationship due to the power imbalance. It's also fraternization.

Response by SCPO Larry Knight Sr. made Jul 5 at 2016 4:02 PM

SCPO Larry Knight Sr. — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 16:02:06 -0400

Well now let me weigh in on this particular conversation as a Retired Senior Chief, I've read all the comments regarding the fine line and the articles of the UCMJ etc . So now that we've gotten passed all that, here is how I view this with good order and discipline in mind ! Along with Fraternization issues and so forth. If there's a command or departmental/divisional function of base, there will be Officers, NCO's and junior enlisted personnel attending this function. There generally will be beer and plenty of food and non-alcoholic beverages as well.
NCO's are not only mature individuals in the majority of all branches of our armed forces but they are well versed on the UCMJ, Fraternization and all other forms of interpersonal issues. The fine line is identified for those who either have or had the potential of crossing into the this forbidden area of concern. So with this understanding and the function mentioned it is something that is a bonding and morale factor for the junior and senior to loosen up and enjoy their respective company of their participation with such items like softball, hose shoe throwing, basketball, flag football and the like.
It becomes an issue when you as a leader officer or senior NCO loose sight of your consumption of alcohol and stray into the "Stupid Factor Zone", that it comes into the area of the fine line.
I have attended countless of these functions with great success on both sides , and other branch service members in attendance without incident ! We as senior NCO's are responsible for maintaining this "Good Order and Discipline" both on and off duty, so this is where you police those who exhibit an other than honorable behavioral trait and have them escorted back to their command without further incident ! We all attended the classes to make us aware of how and when to curtail someone from crossing the line in any situation, and most importantly train the subordinates on Fraternization, UCMJ, and how to develop themselves for future promotions forward rather then backwards. Understand one part of this clearly, at no time due you as a Officer or NCO have functions outside of what we've discussed. No invite to house or apartment etc.

Response by SGT Gregory Reilly made Jul 5 at 2016 4:23 PM

SGT Gregory Reilly — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 16:23:11 -0400

I don't see anything wrong with it, but I served in a different military then todays. It takes a rare and dedicated group of people to pull this off. Today you say Tom I'd be glad to grab you another beer and tomorrow you say yes sergeant I'd be glad to stir that burning barrel of shit until it disappears. Can you do it or do you pull friendies to get out of a crappy job. Most of us know the answer to that, so maybe not so much today. I did a lot of deployments and these people are your family, but you have to know how to separate. If you can't leave it alone.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jul 5 at 2016 4:25 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 16:25:59 -0400

How is this a question?

Most people will agree that sharing a meal as a unit is one thing but going out on a regular basis is the issue. That is fraternization and that is not allowed. Don't do it or be prepared for the difficulties and penalties associated.

Response by SFC Matthew Mason made Jul 5 at 2016 5:09 PM

SFC Matthew Mason — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 17:09:28 -0400

Unauthorized and unacceptable, PERIOD! A team cohesion event is okay IF approved by SL and PSG and must not revolve around alcohol. SLs may do the same, as well as PSGs with SLs but it must not be a regular norm for the PSG to be around joe to ensure good order and discipline.

Response by SGT Matthew Luckner made Jul 5 at 2016 7:31 PM

SGT Matthew Luckner — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 19:31:00 -0400

I personally didn't take this too far. If I saw my paratroopers outside of the daily job I was still Sergeant Luckner or Sergeant Luck and nothing else. They handled this well and it kept our relationship professional. Nothing wrong with having a good time while continuing to set the standard of professionalism for your soldiers.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Jul 5 at 2016 7:43 PM

MSG Don Burt — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 19:43:45 -0400

I have mixed feelings about that....if it's a Company function, ok, but when you start hanging out with individuals, not so much. Typically there's an age gap there, and commonality of life interests are different, so I'd say no.

Response by SFC William Jones made Jul 5 at 2016 9:35 PM

SFC William Jones — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:35:40 -0400

In my assessment, being a good leader isn't much different than being a good parent. There are a lot of things that are appropriate to do with one's children and some things that are not. Like others have mentioned already, it's just a matter of common sense and knowing where the line is.

Response by SSgt Tony Basile made Jul 5 at 2016 9:49 PM

SSgt Tony Basile — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:49:48 -0400

I've seen the attempt by some NCO's to hang out with the troops. From what I've seen, the troops really don't appreciate it, or for that matter, Trust the motives of the NCO .... just based upon the chatter that occurs after he departs. It's bad enough that they have to answer to him on duty, but when off duty, they need a break from the military bearing and should be free to kick back without an NCO looking over their shoulders. It also reflects poorly on the judgement of the NCO ... in my opinion

Response by Sgt Kris Kervin made Jul 6 at 2016 12:10 AM

Sgt Kris Kervin — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 00:10:22 -0400

nothing wrong with it, i learned more leadership and good shit about life hanging out with senior NCO's

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 12:11 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 00:11:33 -0400

Improper if not a team or unit event. This is 101 stuff

Response by SFC David Starr made Jul 6 at 2016 12:24 AM

SFC David Starr — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 00:24:10 -0400

I enlisted 1978. My section was a family. There was never a doubt about where the line was. If a NCO told you to do it, you just did it. I respected my NCOs and they cared about me and my family. We Husbands and wives, camped together fished and even panned for gold as a group. Twice we as a section went Skiing. We had potluck dinners. Sometimes we had a drink together. When My Section chief went hunting he brought me jerky he made. When he spoke, I listened, I knew he cared about me and my family. I would do whatever he asked me to do no matter how unpleasant. later I took my sections on Ski Trips and Hang gliding school in Europe. I went into their homes and reviewed finances and taught them how to use a checking account. I ate meals with them. I never had a soldier who had any problem with my orders. I made sure they knew I cared about them and I was their leader. There are many leadership styles and I am not saying mine was the better than anyone else's. But It worked. There's a time for work and a time for play. Our business was war. I trained each and every one to my skill level. It took extra time, but the payoff was enormous. Once I was medevacked during an Artep. My section outshot the BN without me. The war goes on. They rallied as a team. Completed the mission a man short and did it better than their peers.

Response by SSgt Don Prosser made Jul 6 at 2016 12:32 AM

SSgt Don Prosser — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 00:32:45 -0400

That is a fine line. There is nothing wrong with an NCO getting together with his troops occasionally. If state side, family BBQ's are great. Get to know the troops and their families. Creates a good bond. Drinking at the NCO club, or at bars for one beer or so is OK. But not partying with your troops. Not cutting up with your troops. We as NCO's are role models. We have decorum. We are their leaders in combat. I want my troops respect, and faith in my abilities foremost. I would like it if they liked me as well, but that is not as important as respect. Iff we are deployed, no drinking with the troops. I might meet with them for moral and pep talks. But when deployed I always kept it professional.

Response by SSG Brandon Thrasher made Jul 6 at 2016 2:41 AM

SSG Brandon Thrasher — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 02:41:53 -0400

NCOs should not hang out with soldiers after work. You have to set yourself apart from soldiers once you have made to the NCO Corps. Because you have to remain neutral don't give the other soldiers reason to believe that you may be favoring one over the other. Soldiers may take your hanging out with them after work as a sign of friendship and may feel like they do not have to listen to your orders because there will not be consequences for their actions.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Jul 6 at 2016 4:41 AM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 04:41:29 -0400

I and another Second Class did that with an HA before. We saw potential in him greater than anyone else did. We imparted all the wisdom the both of us learned in our combined 20+ years then. It would have likely been called fraternization, but we saw it as our duty to ensure he could get the support he needed to be a great Sailor. That HA became a career Sailor, and is now looking for Senior Chief. Our efforts were not wasted on him. Given the choice, I would have done it again.

We helped groom him for ever greater roles between beers and good meals. Despite him being so junior, we made him feel welcome, and really an important part of our unit. He knew too from the word go, if he made a mistake, we were required to get on him just like we would any other Sailor there. All of that grooming did not offer any shield for any 'rudder corrections' we needed to make.

Response by MSgt Martin Okulski made Jul 6 at 2016 4:52 AM

MSgt Martin Okulski — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 04:52:28 -0400

It's a question of who controls the environment. If an NCO sets the standard, then the after hours get together should be fine (as long as the NCO themselves are mature). If the NCO starts to behave as a 18 year old kid right out of high school, he'll never obtain the leadership position he'll need to in order to obtain the soldiers trust. However he'll be having such a great time he might not ever realize it, but his soldiers will eventually come to the conclusion they need to lead themselves.

Response by MSgt Ken Flood made Jul 6 at 2016 10:19 AM

MSgt Ken Flood — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 10:19:59 -0400

Get tog ethers are always good for moral for both the troops and supervisors. Friendships are a different thing altogether. Should disciplinary action be needed the bad feelings dig much deeper. I found that out the hard way, don't you!

Response by MSgt Brett Culver made Jul 6 at 2016 10:22 AM

MSgt Brett Culver — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 10:22:54 -0400

As a leader, if your interest is only in what Amn SNUFFY does during the work hrs...then you may not also be mentoring, equipping or truly looking out for the best interest of the most important resource available under your leadership. Things that might impacts Amn SNUFFY's life like the Dinning Facility, the quality of living/housing arrangements and other factors should be vectored from time to time. There is a line of familiarity that should not be crossed. In my experience, most of the time the troops produce at a higher level when they know their leadership is vested in his/her future/life

Response by SFC Teresa Threatts made Jul 6 at 2016 6:51 PM

SFC Teresa Threatts — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:51:27 -0400

Personally, I don't think that it's professional at all. The NCO will ultimately lose his power base if he or she starts hanging out with lower enlisted. This is not a good thing to do. I was a Senior NCO, and my Soldiers definitely knew that there would be no hanging out with me. It gives the appearance of unprofessionalism and can be considered to be fraternization. The level of discipline has to be intact; again, once the relationship between Soldier and leader is compromised, then careers can be jeopardized as well.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Jul 6 at 2016 7:30 PM

SGT Tim Fridley — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 19:30:37 -0400

As long as it is not an everyday thing there is nothing wrong with it. It gives the NCO a chance to learn about their team members and their families and vice-versa also builds team/squad unity. However there are lines that should never be crossed.

Response by 1stSgt Ani Stubbs made Jul 7 at 2016 10:27 PM

1stSgt Ani Stubbs — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:27:48 -0400

You are the NCO, not their buddy. Special event, team building, etc is fine, but just to go out will lead to problems

Response by SSG Vincent Jauregui made Jul 7 at 2016 11:52 PM

SSG Vincent Jauregui — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 23:52:29 -0400

NOT!

Response by SPC Kirk Gilles made Jul 8 at 2016 2:38 AM

SPC Kirk Gilles — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 02:38:35 -0400

No. It makes problems at both ends. When you decide to move up and supervise then you have done just that, moved up. You can be friendly but not friends. Or just don't promote.

Response by SFC Michael Barnett made Jul 14 at 2016 12:56 PM

SFC Michael Barnett — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 12:56:00 -0400

After reading most of the comments, I see where the lower NCOs are more involved with the lower enlisted. But as you gain rank your involvement should become less and less. Where as a Senior NCO you should almost never do it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 4:59 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:59:51 -0400

I know that nowadays that Soldiers are not committed to the Army Guard life. So they can't wait to go home and be with their families. I have noticed that if a section Sgt (SSG or SFC) offers to have the whole section go out on Sat night and eat dinner or go to a game as long as the outing isn't focused on alcohol that the section melds together faster and the es sprit de corps exists with better team work on missions. Just have to keep the alcohol at bay so it doesn't get out of hand and control measures are in place. Then your Soldiers will come to Drill wanting to be part of the team.

Response by SFC Steven Barnhart made Jul 24 at 2016 1:56 PM

SFC Steven Barnhart — Sun, 24 Jul 2016 13:56:49 -0400

I think that it all depends on the actual unit and the situation. I have been in units where the Battalion Leadership hung out at the local bars with the Soldiers, I have also been in units where it was extremely forbidden.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Aug 9 at 2016 6:44 AM

SSG Richard Stevens — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 06:44:41 -0400

Nco should never cross the line, with his soldiers.

Response by SFC Mark Hartmann made Aug 9 at 2016 7:06 AM

SFC Mark Hartmann — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 07:06:44 -0400

Responsible NCOs and soldiers realize that "bonding" once in a while is important; an NCO must know his soldiers as they must know their NCO, and be assured that the NCO is approachable with problems, credible during counseling, and confident under fire.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:47 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:47:08 -0400

I have experience with both sides as junior enlisted. One case where my office (3 jr enlisted and 1 SFC) went out to dinner several times a week. The other case, I never saw my NCOs after work. The first scenario was preferred for me. I felt like my SFC knew me, and we had a much better professional relationship. All of us jr enlisted trusted her and would go to her for anything. No professionalism or respect was ever lost. The second scenario, I didn't really know my NCOs so I never went to them. I just went to work and went home. There was no team commraderie due to being afraid of fraternizing. I feel like there is a lot lost when you don't build that personal relationship with your soldiers. Knowing them inside and outside of work will make you a better and more efficient leader.

Response by SFC Malcolm Haugen made Aug 9 at 2016 8:47 AM

SFC Malcolm Haugen — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:47:27 -0400

Nothing wrong with it up to a point. I had BBQ normally after a good field problem. I gave them a chance to bond out of uniform and build comraderie, trust and tighter bonds. It was a time for me to tell them thanks for their hard work. It was also known that when it was back on duty, that's exactly what it was. As a disciplined professional it was up to me to draw that line and set the standard and set the example. Take care of your troops, they will take care of you.

Response by SSG Dale London made Aug 9 at 2016 9:04 AM

SSG Dale London — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:04:13 -0400

The two most important considerations with this are 1) esprit de corps/unit cohesion, and 2) military discipline.
With regard to the first, it is absolutely essential that an NCO have a relationship with every one of his subordinates - but the relationship must be professional, not casual or intimate. This relationship ensures the soldiers know where they stand, what to expect from their NCO and sets the tone for all operational activity. It needs to be based on trust, respect, and (to a lesser degree) camaraderie. It may be cordial but it must be neither casual nor intimate.
Now, about the second - there is an old and much respected adage: "familiarity breeds contempt." However hokey it may sound, soldiers need to hold their superiors in some degree of awe, deep respect, or (failing either of these) fear. NCOs frequently need to give orders that are not second guessed, not doubted and that are positively obeyed without demur. It's really hard to have the level of credibility necessary for this when your soldiers have watched you barf on your shoes or have listened to you whinge and whine about your wife, your LT, your next assignment, or whatever.
Hey, they know you're human, sure, but they would rather not be reminded of it.
The long and short of it is that there are regulations and extremely powerful traditions against fraternization. They exist for good reason and you should not try to subvert them. You may make a pal out of Private Snuffy, but he won't be your soldier anymore. Never give your soldiers the kind of personal leverage over you that your friends have. It does not turn out well.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 9:07 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:07:59 -0400

These days it's a no go

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 9:36 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:36:52 -0400

Rally point is for honesty, so with that being said, over the years and depending on my assignment I've had close friends that were NCOs when I was an Airman, SNCOs when I was a Jr, and officers from time to time. I think the most important thing is maturity. You and the superior NCO or officer are putting a lot on the line if the relationship becomes unprofessional (not talking sexual at all, that's a whole different ball game). As others have said it ok to take your troops golfing or for a few drinks at the club every once in a while but when you start showing preferential treatment it can be construed as unprofessional with enlisted or fraternization with officers. The Air Force has been more lenient in the past few years but if others bring it up then it's a problem and will be addressed/stopped. The thought being if one brings it up others feel the same way and just won't say anything. Which goes back to the maturity I talked about. If your going to clubs or posting stuff of Facebook then your bringing the attention on yourself. If you keep it to yourselves or group of friends then you won't have an issue because people are generally unaware. I'm not saying to be sneaky because if you are then you feel what your doing is wrong but there isn't a need to run around saying my bff is Capt Snuffy.

Response by SGT David Sifford made Aug 9 at 2016 9:42 AM

SGT David Sifford — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:42:57 -0400

on occasion...not everyday....show them a little appreciation, but not too buddy buddy.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 9:58 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:58:41 -0400

"Hanging out" is an ambiguous term. If its in a semi-official capacity (e.g. team building or mentoring), I don't have any real issues. Beyond this I believe its improper. Our Customs and Courtesies have always allowed us to foster relationships built on mutual respect up and down the ranks. "Chillin' with the Gunny" only serves to degrade these. Aim High my Brothers & Sisters in arms.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 10:28 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 10:28:09 -0400

not allowed, its fraternization, unless as a group function. of only on occasions like holidays.

Response by SFC Luis Rodriguez made Aug 9 at 2016 10:41 AM

SFC Luis Rodriguez — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 10:41:14 -0400

NCO can associate with Soldiers only when he/she is ready to accept the responsibility of their actions (good or bad). And soldiers "need to be aware" of their responsibilities and discipline.
Personally, I would not. You can build an awesome hangout team on duty and be recognized as the best in the Division.

Response by SMSgt Steve Neal made Aug 9 at 2016 10:41 AM

SMSgt Steve Neal — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 10:41:22 -0400

To a certain extent, every NCO supervisor MUST be familiar or at least aware of the off-duty activities of every one of their people. Having some periodic planned event or off-duty gathering at a specific location is a nice way to informally keep tabs on troops and show personal interest without official conversations or inquiries and to develop that integral "esprit de corps" that really tight units possess. In the 1980s and 90s, we used to have a Friday "beer call", where half the duty day was spent getting all the weekly minutia wrapped up early, and the second half was spent at an undisclosed nearby "off-site" location that usually led to after-duty time & camaraderie (cards, darts, golf, softball...). Those days are gone, as alcohol use has been deglamorized and fraternization has been more closely scrutinized. Best wishes for today's military in finding a politically-correct substitute for our Friday beer-call...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 11:01 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:01:13 -0400

I would say it depends. Active or reserve? Prior friendship or served together in difficult assignment? How far apart in rank?

An E-5 can't be expected to cut off friendships with his/her fellow E-4s just because of a promotion, while a late enlistee in his or her 30s or 40s is likely to socialize with people of similar age, who will often be of higher rank. No problem if not in direct chain of command or if mature enough on both ends to know the boundaries.

I'm prior enlisted and had a break in service, making me very old (48) for my rank. I have many social groups within the military, including E-8/9s that were privates at the same time that I was, Colonels and Serrgeants Major who are my age group and Captains, Majors and Lieutenant Colonels who are my peers of similar rank though usually yunger than I am. I scocialize with all three groups comfortably and when the uniforms are off, we are usually friends on a first name basis, especially the senior NCOs and senior officers whom I've known for between 20 and 30 years now.

Once a soldier makes it to the NCO or officer ranks, or I would say an age of roughly 35 or higher, they should know the rules and be mature enough to blur them a bit a off duty without crossing or breaking them.

Response by PO2 Alfonse VanHese made Aug 9 at 2016 11:15 AM

PO2 Alfonse VanHese — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:15:33 -0400

As a NCO, I was able to handle both sides of the table, lunch and coffee with the Officers of my Squadron and the same with the guys. I was called a kiss up and other things, but when issues came up with my workers, they were quickly solved, because I was able to nip it early, and know the story on what caused the issue in hand.
Being out at sea on a Aircraft Carrier was hard enough, it was hard to not get close with both sides of the table.
You have to draw a line on how close you get, and what is to be shared.

Response by SFC Richard Giles made Aug 9 at 2016 11:16 AM

SFC Richard Giles — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:16:04 -0400

As a SNCO you should have already made it clear to your Soldiers how this will be handled. An occasional beer at a social gathering, having a meal at a restaurant is ok but don't make it a habit.
But to hang out with them all the time? No way. Your Soldiers need time away from you as much as you need time away from them

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 11:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:25:53 -0400

That all depends. I would say in active duty no. However guard/reserve is a different story. There has to be an established Balance. But a lot of buddys join the guard and already know each other. I've had this problem and asked this question being in the guard. For myself, I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of guys under me. Nothing outside of drill changes how we interact during training. Don't get me wrong, I don't party with my guys, but we will do double dates with our spouses, and go to the movies sometimes. It's all about the professional additude and character of all soldiers involved.

Response by MCPO Tom Miller made Aug 9 at 2016 11:54 AM

MCPO Tom Miller — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:54:54 -0400

In my tenure in the Navy, it was considered to be very poor conduct to establish close relationships with subordinates! Enlisted and Officers keep a strong barrier and maintained a very high level of chain of command and respect! With time, leadership values declined within the Navy whereas, enlisted clubs for E-1 to E-4, E-5 to E-6 and the Chief Clubs were depleted. These clubs were social clubs and drinking was normal. With PC and drinking becoming unacceptable these clubs were closed in favor of one club. In the end, Chief Clubs supported financially the Officer clubs for lack of attendance. As a Master Chief, I never socialized with my subordinates. Politeness was always in view with a dementor that recognized good performance as well as the opposite! When I was a young white hat, I wanted to emulate and accomplish that same earned level of respect. Military bearing and good judgement from seniors and juniors alike simplify prideful and competent performance! Respect is a valuable leadership trait and to lose it or holes in the chain of command is a good way to lessen professionalism and bring in that old saying friendships brings contempt!

Response by SGT Daniel Anderson made Aug 9 at 2016 11:55 AM

SGT Daniel Anderson — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:55:31 -0400

It is his personal time does he not have freedom to do what he wants and besides that you're also building Calmratarty and teamwork

Response by PO1 Jim Spencer made Aug 9 at 2016 12:12 PM

PO1 Jim Spencer — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:12:15 -0400

I don't know. I was a Sailor. But as an NCO I had my guys over for coffee when we got off watch in the morning. Or over for a cook out. I went to their weddings and was there for the births of their children and even went to the hospital when one of them or their family member was sick.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Aug 9 at 2016 12:18 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:18:10 -0400

I did have the occassional beer with my subordinates after work. I was never in uniform, last to arrive and first to leave. Usually I wanted to make sure no one was a hazard to themselves or others. I would buy the last round before leaving as long as no one was in "jeopardy". Make sure somebody had a ride home. Didn't want to do anything that would violate good order or discipline. Although in my early days, I was the one who needed a ride... Lol

Response by SSG Rafael Rodriguez made Aug 9 at 2016 12:32 PM

SSG Rafael Rodriguez — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:32:34 -0400

As long as the respect both ways is still there, be the same way in or out of uniform, do not get drunk and act stupid, you will lose all respect and may be taken advantage of later. informal but professional at all times. personally i spend enough time away from my family to be hanging out with Soldiers i see every day, so i would keep it occasionally and bring family if appropriate. There's the case that a Soldier need some kind of support, then i am always there as a senior NCO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 12:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 12:42:36 -0400

Dont agree with it, unless it's a family oriented event.

Response by SSG Richard Gaytan made Aug 9 at 2016 1:06 PM

SSG Richard Gaytan — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 13:06:56 -0400

I think it is cool! Your troops will feel that you care for them and will show respect towards you. Granted there is always a fine line!!!!

Response by SGT Ramon Nieves made Aug 9 at 2016 2:14 PM

SGT Ramon Nieves — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:14:30 -0400

Why not it creates loyalty and teamwork.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 2:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:22:59 -0400

It's fine as long as it's a platoon event only (I.e. a platoon BBQ)

Response by PO1 Robert Johnson made Aug 9 at 2016 2:31 PM

PO1 Robert Johnson — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:31:34 -0400

If you're a senior NCO/Petty Officer there is nothing wrong with occasionally joining your subordinates for a drink or a meal, but if you are one of those who go to a bar and get yourself snot slinging drunk so that you can be "One of the boys". you're not doing any good for either them or you. I retired in 1990 so I'm pretty sure things in the military are somewhat different now but........ leadership is a learning experience.

Response by SGT Jonathan Flores made Aug 9 at 2016 2:54 PM

SGT Jonathan Flores — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:54:16 -0400

I used to hang out and drink with my guys all the time, but they knew that off duty I'm just a guy in the barracks but on duty I'm there first line and will act accordingly.

Response by SFC Freddie Porter made Aug 9 at 2016 3:59 PM

SFC Freddie Porter — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 15:59:20 -0400

Nope. A while ago there was a discussion about Snuffy not obeying a directive in formation given by his NCO. When you start hanging out with Snuffy off duty, your his friend not his NCO. You've crossed a line you can't cross back over. Snuffy will feel you don't have the authority to tell him what to do.

Response by SFC Robert Luscomb made Aug 9 at 2016 4:31 PM

SFC Robert Luscomb — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 16:31:27 -0400

This is a slippery slope and when a senior NCO crosses that line, there's no going back. Trying to maintain discipline and order among your subordinates can't be done when you enter the friend zone. Your soldiers will eat you alive.

Response by SFC Robert Luscomb made Aug 9 at 2016 4:37 PM

SFC Robert Luscomb — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 16:37:05 -0400

If your hanging out trying to get to know your people such as a platoon bbq or some other company function is one thing, hanging out drinking with them is a whole different story. Once you as a senior NCO cross the line from leader to friend you have entered the danger zone. Nothing good comes from "hanging" with the guys on a social basis outside work.

Response by SSG James Dennis made Aug 9 at 2016 5:16 PM

SSG James Dennis — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:16:32 -0400

The position of leadership cannot be compromised by friendship. Having contact with lower enlisted personnel away from the unit in some areas (mainly overseas tours) is almost impossible to avoid. How the NCO conducts him/herself during this time frame reflects upon their professionalism. "Hanging out" with the lower enlisted person should be discouraged.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 5:17 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:17:08 -0400

It is fraternization. If my old First Sergeant caught you, you could hang out with them all you wanted because you would be busted down when he talked to the CO.

Response by SGT Reginald Tyler made Aug 9 at 2016 5:59 PM

SGT Reginald Tyler — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 17:59:01 -0400

At one while stationed in Germany my command wanted to charge me with fraternization because I would allow my young troops to come to my home and interact with my kids, you are told to get to know everything about your troops and keep an eye on there up bringing, by allowing them to get a sense of family and also understand I was there SGT while at work but I was also a person with feelings and experience in life and military meters they would have to face in their career in the military. So always treat your troops as you would like to be treated, they are not just chess moves on a board. They are human with feelings just like you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 7:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:19:26 -0400

NCO's should hang every ounce in awhile with their soldiers. The key is to keep it once in awhile and make it brief; like a beer or Coke then leave the soldiers to chill.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 9 at 2016 7:36 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:36:59 -0400

I think that as long as you maintain a professional distance from your subordinates you can shoot pool, go to a movie and that kind of thing but if you choose to go out and party with them, you need to maintain the proper decorum. If you go out and get stone cold drunk you have crossed a line of propriety and respect and you may never get that respect back again. So socialize yes, be respectful, address subordinates by rank and last name, expect them to address you by your rank and last name as well and play some volley ball and go for dinner just keep things respectful.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 7:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 19:38:36 -0400

Don't do it! Misperceptions are reality.

Response by MSgt Bedell Toro made Aug 9 at 2016 8:01 PM

MSgt Bedell Toro — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 20:01:11 -0400

There's nothing wrong if its an official function. But as a Senior SNCO to go out drinking with enlisted, is stetting a poor leadership role. The Non-Rates will think of you as their buddy. Come time for work. You will have a big problem. Now there's nothing wrong with buying or having the privet buy you a beer. But the standards must be maintained.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 20:23:47 -0400

If it I a sq platoon function no problem, other than that it is a nogo!

Response by PO2 Al Mcdonald made Aug 9 at 2016 10:33 PM

PO2 Al Mcdonald — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 22:33:49 -0400

A sensitive subject, if the NCO is building unity and comradery without compromising his Authority yes! An with limited contact, (I.e. Not drinking, acting out of his position, etc.) Squad functions, public cookouts and just finding out personal problems with the troops is acceptable too! Just my two cents from being in the Fleet and Reserves!

Response by Sgt William Coffee made Aug 9 at 2016 10:48 PM

Sgt William Coffee — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 22:48:28 -0400

I see no problem with that as long as the NCO/Staff NCO does not begin to take advantage of that relationship. We all need friends but don't confuse that with the authority structure that is necessary to make this thing work.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 10:49 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 22:49:19 -0400

Probably not the best idea. NCOs should ensure that they are not fraternizing with their subordinates. Even if they are not or don't feel they are, perception weighs heavily in the military environment. NCOs and leadership should refrain from "hanging out" with their subordinates outside of work, unless at certain functions or sporting events. This is not to say that you can't have gatherings and get togethers; just ensure that everyone is invited well in advance. Leadership and professionalism always.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Aug 9 at 2016 11:13 PM

PO3 Rod Arnold — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 23:13:17 -0400

I see nothing wrong with spending time with your non NCO shipmates away from work. I personally did, and got to learn so much more about their individual personally. I had a great bunch of guys, and they understood and respected my rank when it was time to go back to work!!!

Response by SFC Jay Needham made Aug 9 at 2016 11:51 PM

SFC Jay Needham — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 23:51:27 -0400

Occasionally, if your celebrating a team accomplishment. Overseas I used to invite the guys out of the barracks over for Thanks Giving for dinner with my family etc. However it is not a good habit to get into to party with your troops on a frequent pattern as it could compromise your authority and if not viewed as a team cause folks to feel that there is favoritism. When I first made E-5 a lot of my peers were too, so we hung together and when I would PCS I would hang out with the other NCO's but I still invited my Infantry Troopers to my home for the Holidays. As sitting in the Barracks during the holidays 10,000 miles from home sucks, my kids also loved the extra attention.

Response by MCPO Kurt Stauff made Aug 10 at 2016 12:33 AM

MCPO Kurt Stauff — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 00:33:29 -0400

The fraternization issue has always been a sticky wicket, and primarily the onus of the senior person present. All of the answers I have read have merit on individual bases. When I joined the Navy, I was nearly 29, so had much more in common with my seniors than my peers; I was wise enough to not mix business with of-duty relationships. Younger folks haven't necessarily learned that your first name over a few beers translates to Petty Officer/Chief/Senior/Master Chief in the workplace. Of course, once I made Chief (Navy E7), I was never on a first name basis, on or off duty, with any of my Sailors E6 or junior. It is a fine line to maintain professionalism at all times and to ensure that their job performance was what I rated them on, not if they bought me a drink, and that everyone present understood that unequivocally. Also, not to make an ass of yourself that someone could use against you. Your flaws and strengths in a leadership position are as well-defined as the nearest subordinate's perception. Be thoughtful and careful in these situations. You are especially vulnerable to these perceptions if you are in a command Senior Enlisted Leader position, so you must mind your P's and Q's more carefully.

Response by SGT Randolph Carlton made Aug 10 at 2016 1:05 AM

SGT Randolph Carlton — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:05:26 -0400

who cares friendship comes in all ages

Response by SGT John Howard made Aug 10 at 2016 1:46 AM

SGT John Howard — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:46:30 -0400

No, No, No. It may be OK for a softball game, but you can't be friends with them anymore. Your job is a leader and an example. Being a friend with them could cause them to try to manipulate you during a stressful assignment. Your friends are now E-5 to E-8 (you ever see a 'friendly' E-9?). I found that out during my two years as a E-5 during active duty; then I joined a police force, was a sergeant for more than 20-years - your friends wear stripes.

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Aug 10 at 2016 2:31 AM

SGT Joseph Alanzo — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:31:32 -0400

why not?? it i good too know each other's as the as to working on the job!!

Response by SGM Debra Bradshaw made Aug 10 at 2016 2:36 AM

SGM Debra Bradshaw — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:36:20 -0400

It can be good for morale occasionally but in general it tends to undermine authority. It should be a right of passage. Hang out with those of similar rank and you'll find you have more in common. Plus, when work matters come up as a matter of conversation it won't affect the group. Everybody needs somebody to bounce stuff off of.

Response by MGySgt Robert Turner made Aug 10 at 2016 3:20 AM

MGySgt Robert Turner — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 03:20:25 -0400

The fraternization rules may not be spoken or practiced by all services but should be a universal rule. There is no faraternizing between officers and enlisted personnel in the USMC nor should there be. The USMC carries that down to NCOs not fraternizing with the ranks that they supervise. Familizaration breeds contempt is a blunt way to explain how it should be. You may see this as "old school" but some things should never go away.

Response by SP5 Michael Chambers made Aug 10 at 2016 4:35 AM

SP5 Michael Chambers — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 04:35:55 -0400

After 20 years I can say that the best team, squad, etc were the ones that enjoyed a close relationship ALL the way around. In the 82nd we learned to fight in bars together, in special forces we fought in combat together. I was always able to look to my peers and my seniors for guidance and leadership. It built trust, teamwork, and true respect. Ask yourself: How can an NCO expect to lead me through combat if he hasn't even been able to lead me home after a social get together? That said, my leaders were always leaders. They never stepped down from that role. We became friends through those experiences and were men I admired enough to want to be just like them. They inspired me to be more than just the cloth patch of rank on my chest. I did my best to forward that style of leadership to others and was rewarded with tight units that would endure anything for each other.

Response by Sgt John Street made Aug 10 at 2016 4:56 AM

Sgt John Street — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 04:56:56 -0400

I think it's a bad idea . It will cause a break-down in discipline .

Response by TSgt Daniel Danielson made Aug 10 at 2016 5:09 AM

TSgt Daniel Danielson — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 05:09:19 -0400

As long as there is an understanding that there is a fine line between work and social interactions I always thought it was time to get to know who you work with.

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Aug 10 at 2016 9:17 AM

MSgt Michael Lane — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:17:13 -0400

This is the slippery slope that people talk about, can you hang out and still have an image of integrity that is necessary for overall unit moral as an NCO you cannot have an have the perception of showing favoritism which in itself is impossible because it is just human nature to like one person over another. Also I feel that an NCO in a combat role is going to naturally have a closer personal relationship with his Solders than an NCO in a support role. The answer here is there may not really be a right answer.

Response by TSgt Ronald Iniguez made Aug 10 at 2016 9:32 AM

TSgt Ronald Iniguez — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:32:22 -0400

I didn't have a problem with hanging out with NCO's, Enlisted or even Officers when off duty. I don't know about you groundpounders (said with love and affection!!!) but as a USAF flyer (C130) we had to be tight with our Officers, NCO's and enlisted. Especially on TDY's, we hung out with each other, but still held to military decorum when we addressed each other. Sometimes, depending what country we were in we, we got a little informal with our address, so as to not let possible hostiles identify who our Officers and Senior Enlisted were.
Just my two cents worth!

Response by SFC Don Vance made Aug 10 at 2016 10:32 AM

SFC Don Vance — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:32:40 -0400

There is not a problem as long as you're not regular drinking buddies and the NCO sets the line not to be crossed. As a platoon sergeant my soldiers knew where that line was. If I stopped by the barracks and there was a party I'd always stay for a few minutes and maybe have a beer with them. Whenever there was a party at my house all my soldiers were invited. I set the line and it was never crossed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 10:41 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 10:41:51 -0400

This is where as a leader you need to know your Soldiers. Some Soldiers are fine they know the difference between ranks, and if you hang with them after work they know at work who the boss is, others are not able to tell the difference. I know that leaders do need to interact so the best way is to have shop get togethers on the weekends where everyone is invited.

Response by PO2 Lemual Martin made Aug 10 at 2016 12:17 PM

PO2 Lemual Martin — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:17:49 -0400

I have no issues with it, but I am a former submariner. Officers and enlisted alike would drink together. I have shared quite a few beers with these men. From an O-1 all the way up to my Captain.

Response by PO1 Rick Trujillo made Aug 10 at 2016 12:25 PM

PO1 Rick Trujillo — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:25:01 -0400

It is downright dangerous. I (ET1) was sitting with my Master Chief having a beer, and we watched this drunk Seaman slam into his brand new Lincoln. Dangerous I say.

Response by SFC Daniel Baker made Aug 10 at 2016 12:56 PM

SFC Daniel Baker — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:56:59 -0400

Totally inappropriate!!! Although some NCO's and Soldiers can have a good working relationship, it is very difficult to have a friend relationship outside of work. In most cases, NCO's can separate work from off duty but the Soldier most likely look for friendship or favoritism at work.

Response by SFC Daniel Baker made Aug 10 at 2016 12:57 PM

SFC Daniel Baker — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:57:46 -0400

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Aug 10 at 2016 5:48 PM

PVT Mark Brown — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:48:48 -0400

Difficult. No one answer can provide 100% responsible approach. And now with women so very much a part of the "modern" Army that just ads another wild card to the mix. I have been on both sides of that line. When I was still E4 I had some pretty good buddies as high as E6. I think E7 and above, Senior NCO ranges make a good place to establish a hard line rule. While was only in just under 3 years, Vietnam Era I think that the military has made tremendous strides at equality up and down and side to side. I saw a lot of this happening in the late 1960's. When the question turn to fraternization I think a different code of conduct is called for and must be rules by a few sensible guidelines. (Does that Army actually have sensible guideline?) As to the separation between E7. Since I have been away from the military for 4.5 decades there have been many changes, especially after establishing ALL volunteer military. Bottom line, my opinion is that men and women in pay grades E4 through E6 are usually a good mix. The E5 and E6 people still have a responsibility to the military, to their command and all fellow service folks.

Response by CPL Gypsy Gersna made Aug 11 at 2016 2:26 AM

CPL Gypsy Gersna — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:26:43 -0400

As my former leaders would say -- work is work play is play , so keep those two completely separate . Shed blood with me and brothers we shall be .

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2016 8:10 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:10:40 -0400

I DONT THINK THAT THERE IS ANY PROBLEM HANGING OUT WITH OTHER SERVICE MEMBERS, IN FACT, I THINK THAT IT IS A GOOD THING FOR SOLDIERS TO HANG OUT TOGETHER AS LONG AS IT IS DONE WITH GOOD INTENSIONS IN MIND WHILE DOING SO. I MEAN THINK ABOUT IT, DONT YOU WANT TO GET TO KNOW THE PERSONALITIES OF THE SOLDIERS THAT YOU MIGHT ONE DAY BE FIGHTING ON THE BATTLE FIELD WITH ? IT ALSO HELPS A LOT OF SERVICE MEMBERS COPE BETTER WITH OTHERS OUTSIDE OF THEIR IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBERS CREATING A NEW BOND AMONG PEOPLE WHO VALUE UNITY IN THE SPIRIT OF NOT ONLY FAMILY VALUES BUT ALSO VALUES IN THE SPIRIT OF FREEDOMS FOR OUR NATION.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Aug 11 at 2016 10:12 AM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:12:09 -0400

There might be an age gap and there are limitations but how else can an NCO see how is Soldiers are doing especially when there most likely to open up off duty. Suicides are tough to handle.

Response by TSgt Eric Lewis made Aug 11 at 2016 10:50 AM

TSgt Eric Lewis — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:50:42 -0400

As an NCO, it is your responsibility to make sure subordinates are taken care of. My wife and I always had dinners with them one in awhile, usually on a Saturday evening, followed by board games or PlayStation. This covers two things: They get at least one good meal that week, and I know they are not getting into trouble, at least, for a couple of hours. I could still be the NCO without being "the boss." I feel I had a better relationship with them than other NCOs. I've had other supervisor's airmen come to me to help with situations before them. The airmen knew I would handle the situation correctly because I cared for them, as well their career.

Response by SFC David Davenport made Aug 11 at 2016 3:01 PM

SFC David Davenport — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:01:45 -0400

As a Leader you should be looking for opportunities to spend some time with your Soldiers away from the normal work environment. You have to be very clear and your Soldiers have to clearly understand there is a line that can't be crossed by either side. I have learned a lot and helped a lot of Soldiers understand more away from the normal work place. Sadly I have also witnessed the downside when that line gets crossed. Thankfully I learned from other's mistakes. So always look to build your team but never at the cost of good order and discipline.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Aug 11 at 2016 3:56 PM

TSgt James Carson — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 15:56:40 -0400

It has to have a purpose and NOT a drunk fest. Must be a seldom but useful incounter for you and your workmates.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Aug 12 at 2016 6:18 PM

1SG Patrick Sims — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:18:19 -0400

Hanging out with your troops after hours is a bad idea. You can, and should attend parties, but you no longer have the option of being anyone's buddy. You should be friendly and approachable, but that's as far as you can take it. You can listen to them bitch about their wives and girlfriends, but you don't have the option of telling them your troubles. Your an NCO---you're their boss. You have to give them shit jobs from time to time---It's harder to do if its your drinking buddy---I afraid loneliness comes with the stripes. The more stripes you put on, the lonelier you will be. There were times I wished I had remained a tank commander, and let someone else be the platoon sergeant. It wasn't the path I chose. I wanted to make a difference, and so I did.

Response by SP5 William McCurtis made Aug 12 at 2016 11:36 PM

SP5 William McCurtis — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 23:36:39 -0400

On the first place, becoming an NOV, vegans as a Squad Leader. You MUST get to know your men....thru-and-thru....you MUST give them cause/reason to look to you for direction, leadership, and build that "bridge" of Respect, Confidence, and most of all....TRUST....that YOU WILL DO YOUR DAMNDEST TO GET THEM HOME SAFE, and they can bring their problems to you....bug or small. So...YES....NCO's should ALWAYS mix with the troops under their authority. Of course, as you become higher in tank and your personel numbers and responsibilities increase, you have less and less "free"time.

Response by PO1 Lawrence Lewis made Aug 19 at 2016 2:10 PM

PO1 Lawrence Lewis — Fri, 19 Aug 2016 14:10:26 -0400

For a long we didn't have a problem with it. Things began to change after Tail Hook.

Response by CPL Robert Bradway made Aug 20 at 2016 1:51 PM

CPL Robert Bradway — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 13:51:33 -0400

Tricky you want to have that bond with your squad. You have to include everyone to so your fair and consistent

Response by Christian Walker made Aug 22 at 2016 5:59 PM

Christian Walker — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 17:59:47 -0400

Is this a trick question?

Response by FN Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 7:32 PM

FN Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 19:32:06 -0400

I've seen personal relationships outside of work interfere with professional relationships at work. When these relationships get in the way of appropriate action being taken in the case of harassment, I then take personal issue.

Response by CPO Bill Penrod made Sep 7 at 2016 4:23 PM

CPO Bill Penrod — Wed, 07 Sep 2016 16:23:01 -0400

The NCO and several Soldiers have their weekly beers but for whatever reason
Soldier Joe does not participate. All Soldiers including Joe are top performers at evaluation Joe was rated five of five. See were this is going...........

Response by CPL David Siegrist made Dec 11 at 2016 5:41 PM

CPL David Siegrist — Sun, 11 Dec 2016 17:41:08 -0500

Its all fun and games until he/she is knocking on your barracks door...

Response by 1SG Patrick Holmes made Dec 14 at 2016 9:19 AM

1SG Patrick Holmes — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 09:19:30 -0500

Wrong except in very limited cases

Response by SFC David Davenport made Dec 15 at 2016 2:03 PM

SFC David Davenport — Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:03:43 -0500

It almost always leads to problems. It is inevitable that someone will not clearly see the line that separates subordinate from Leader. I am a firm believer in knowing your Soldiers and have good working relations with them. I am against fraternization because I have seen the consequences on several occasions. I was lucky enough to see this as a SPC back in 1994 and I never forgot the lesson.

Response by SGT John Howard made Dec 15 at 2016 9:47 PM

SGT John Howard — Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:47:22 -0500

Absolutely no contact after work. It would weaken the NCOs command influence and adversely affect his ability to give orders and have them followed under stressful conditions. The NCO isn't and shouldn't be their buddy.

Response by SP6 Steven Cardoza made Dec 22 at 2016 11:03 PM

SP6 Steven Cardoza — Thu, 22 Dec 2016 23:03:40 -0500

Maybe? depends on the activity I don't want to hang out with someone half my age if there is no common interest, moreover, if it appears to create concern in a leadership role, then don't do it' all depends on the circumstances type of job, and potential conflict of interest,,you got to use some common sense...

Response by CPO David Sharp made Dec 29 at 2016 1:36 PM

CPO David Sharp — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:36:11 -0500

Never.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Dec 29 at 2016 1:36 PM

CPO David Sharp — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:36:29 -0500

Never.

Response by SPC Nicholas V. made Dec 29 at 2016 1:36 PM

SPC Nicholas V. — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:36:56 -0500

It should be a requirement for team building. That includes inviting them over for holidays.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Dec 18 at 2018 4:27 PM

SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 16:27:05 -0500

Is this from the stand at parade rest for NCOs people?

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Dec 18 at 2018 6:14 PM

SPC Gary Welch — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 18:14:46 -0500

It's ok as long as the professional and respectful part of the camaraderie is not breached

Response by Sgt Andrew Pouliot made Dec 18 at 2018 6:54 PM

Sgt Andrew Pouliot — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 18:54:55 -0500

I think it's ok for NCOs and petty officers to hang out with their guys after working hours, as long as they know this doesn't reflect a working environment. We're all adults. If you can't differentiate between me as a sergeant at work and me as a human being off duty then there's a problem. I've been accused of fraternization before, it was not an enjoyable experience. At the end of the day, some people see what they want to see and try to ruin your career. I spend time with my guys off duty and if they call me Sergeant I say hey man, we're not in uniform there is no rank on my collar, my name is Andrew. But when we go back to work it's business ss usual.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 18 at 2018 11:17 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 23:17:03 -0500

It's only a problem for weak leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2018 12:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 12:19:43 -0500

Across a couple of units I have done both. In my experience it depends on the type of after hours interaction, frequency and activity the NCO and subordinates are engaged in. I have gone out drinking, to dinner or bar-b-que, training to include running, rucking or the gym and answered individual requests to meet and talk. It really depends on the maturity level of those involved and if they possess the ability to flip the on/off switch between professional and personal identities. I made a point before hand to set a clear boundary and if the junior involved could follow it I never had a problem. If they couldn't and thought "Oh me and SSG Freeman are buddies now I can get away with things." Then I quickly corrected the attitude and never interacted with them outside of the professional setting again.

Most of my experience with this has been positive and strengthened mutual respect and professional ties.

To each their own though.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2018 1:50 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:50:03 -0500

As long as hanging out doesn't interfere with your work duties and they maintain the professionalism and courtesy while on the job then I don't see an issue with it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2018 12:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:24:01 -0500

I will hangout with a group of junior Soldiers in certain environments. But never with a junior Soldier one on one, and never at a venue where things could go sideways.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2018 6:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:08:04 -0500

There is nothing wrong with hanging out with the guys within reason. There has to be an understanding that work is work and play is play. The MUST be a clear cut distinction between the two.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2018 6:12 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 18:12:59 -0500

Authority doesn't, and never will, manufacture trust. Trust builds authority.

When your soldiers know that you're their leader 24/7, in or out of uniform, and come to you with personal issues the same way they come to you with professional issues, you can sleep well at night knowing those same soldiers will execute orders without question when rounds are flying, and Jihad Jerry has you in his crosshairs.

That's something you can't facilitate between 0900 and 1700. That's something built over time, over your personal time and sacrifice.

The push against "fraternization" has indirectly led to ineffective teams, due to leaders who are too afraid of getting hemmed up, for doing what's right - knowing, and taking care of those under your charge.

Response by CPT Jeff Robinette made Dec 25 at 2018 9:17 AM

CPT Jeff Robinette — Tue, 25 Dec 2018 09:17:48 -0500

You have to be as close to your troops as your position allows. An officer or NCO cannot allow themselves to be caught in a jackpot where their judgement is clouded by what happened at the club is clouded by what happened the night before.
If there is a beer call the command is briefing an upcoming event that is an acceptable situation where NCOs can can socialize with subordinates.
A night at a strip club is a different story.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2018 11:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 23:38:35 -0500

Absolutely not.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2018 1:14 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 01:14:55 -0500

Officers do it. What's the problem?

Response by MAJ Bob Firth made Dec 28 at 2018 9:14 AM

MAJ Bob Firth — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 09:14:12 -0500

Ok as long as you know where to draw the line. If you are out all night bar hopping and hitting the strip clubs then you crossed the line. Getting together every once in awhile, or having a squad/platoon party with food and not letting things get wild is a good thing. The troops will let you know what is on their minds and you may be able to explain the reason for some policies that may not be popular.

Response by CPO Rick Crose made Dec 28 at 2018 7:26 PM

CPO Rick Crose — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 19:26:15 -0500

But yet, the SPECOPS guys regardless of rank, are able to party together like there’s no tomorrow.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2019 12:32 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 00:32:42 -0400

I see no real issue with it as long as they can keep work and personal life separate. Sadly I don't think anyone can grasp that