What are your thoughts on Oklahoma Congressman asking for test results of female Ranger grads?

Cpl Mark McMiller — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:38:29 -0400

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/254579-lawmaker-probing-whether-female-army-rangers-received-special-treatment

GOP lawmaker questions test scores of female Army Rangers

Rep. Steve Russell is concerned that two female graduates received special treatment.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2015 11:45 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:45:28 -0400

Unnamed sources? Doesn't smell legit. There were a lot of eyes on that training....and the eyes have mouths. The NCOs I know throw BS flags loud and proud, I think the moral courage of our Ranger Instructors would have been real-time vocal if they didn't meet the standard. Do I believe we should change huge policies based on what a microsample can do? NO. Do I think there is any value in undermining what these women accomplished? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Sep 23 at 2015 12:00 AM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 00:00:16 -0400

Cpl Mark McMiller I hope there was no misconduct on the scores and testing for these ladies. This would not look for the Army if they cheated on the scores or made exceptions. Let's hope this is just a bad rumor. That is just my opinion!

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Sep 23 at 2015 12:06 AM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 00:06:13 -0400

Probably just a way to try and stop women from being able to go to Ranger school.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 23 at 2015 12:07 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 00:07:19 -0400

I hope this is not true.... I want these ladies to succeed on their merits

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 23 at 2015 12:37 AM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 00:37:34 -0400

I am not too surprised that the person questioning it is a male ranger. Most likely the real problem is that he does not approve of women being allowed to go to ranger school.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Sep 23 at 2015 1:01 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 01:01:49 -0400

There was pressure not to lower standards, if the standards were actually lowered the problem lies within the leaderhip/cadre.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 23 at 2015 5:33 AM

CW4 Guy Butler — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:33:12 -0400

Army Times has some more details.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/capitol-hill/2015/09/22/congressman-wants-proof-standards-werent-fudged-female-ranger-school-graduates/72651796/

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 23 at 2015 10:20 AM

CW4 Guy Butler — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:20:15 -0400

Would these be the same Ranger instructors who "leaked" the fact that the President would be attending the women's Ranger graduation so that everyone would know the "fix" was in?

'Cause they nailed that one.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 10:22 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:22:57 -0400

I truly hope it's not the case because nothing should take away from their accomplishment, but it also is important that the truth comes out if it has not already.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 10:26 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:26:08 -0400

I would think we would have more pressing issues in the House of Representatives. Guess I'm wrong.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 10:29 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:29:29 -0400

Maybe his district has already solved homelessness, hunger, crime, and the economy, so this is all they have left to worry about. You never know.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 23 at 2015 10:34 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:34:38 -0400

Basically, it is a moot point. What's done is done and it will not be reversed, regardless of what comes out. Until there is sufficient women in combat units, that see action, no one can say with predictability, how they will perform. Smart salute, Aye,Aye, Sir, about face, march out with dignity.

The good Congressman should pay more attention to the true ills of this nation, and help fix those.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 10:48 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:48:38 -0400

While this request does unnecessarily question the integrity of the RI's, they should have nothing to worry about or hide if the standards were upheld. Would I have made this request in his position? No.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 23 at 2015 10:48 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:48:56 -0400

Rep. Steve Russell, R-Okla - Sir, why waste peoples time with "silly" tedious reports when someone could easily talk to the school commander/commandant (not sure of the proper term) and get the answer directly. Here's a real issue that has no political bias; you might've heard about it a time or two; 22 a day. That's not $22 dollars, 22 cars or trucks, but 22 LIVES PER day, DEAD Lives Sir. I would like to think that you and your staff would have more pressing issues at hand like improving the VA care in your state, improving the transition from troop to civilian (you do have Ft. Sill, Altus and Tinker AFB and various armories in OK), following other states in with the end of vet homelessness. Maybe using your congressional prowess to maybe get a caucus going of congressman who will no longer take what has been given to the service members and finally hear our voices and say NO MORE? I'm FAR from the smartest man alive, but I know too many vets suffering from PTSD, TBI, various mystery ailments that suddenly have names 40 years later, or missing limbs, and destroyed lives. I doubt for a second any of them are worried if the books were cooked for women in Ranger School, when it's been put out over and over again that it wasn't. Or Sir, I'm wrong. This report that you want (all 25 pages of it) isn't "silly", but represents a very dire need in the military. Maybe with this report and your congressional prowess we can ensure that hard charging women in all branches are relegated to high ranking sammichmakers with no chance of being the professional warriors they already are. I mean there is a Silver Star awarded Medic....but the awardee's a woman and I guess that equates to an LOA (with valor) or a CDR's Coin for the men; the real warriors huh? Sir let's get past the ranger school BS and fight the good and very important fight. Every member of our armed forces at one time in their lives are going to have to hang the uniform up. It's a bittersweet moment filled with tears, hurt, regret, excitement and fear. Let's band together across party lines and make it so that no matter your branch, when you exit service you're given the BEST damn information possible to make good decisions. The process isn't a rubber stamp anymore, you feel part of the team you were in for so long and that in your heart, they never left you nor you them. Let's get the SecofVA some real support. Less with the harassing, and more with the demands for progress. Make it easier for him to get rid of non performers, yet keep those who want to make a difference. Help him help us, the SAME WAY all the warriors (regardless of sex) in this country helped you.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Sep 23 at 2015 11:01 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:01:16 -0400

"Rep. Steve Russell completed the rigorous U.S. Army Ranger School in Class 11-87"
So I guess he has an interest in what is going on in the school.

Response by CSM William Johnson made Sep 23 at 2015 11:30 AM

CSM William Johnson — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:30:03 -0400

The Fort Benning Commander said it best "if anyone doubts the standards at Ranger School let them attend the course". Congressman, when are you going? There isn't an Ranger Instructor out there that would allow two standards!

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 23 at 2015 11:32 AM

CW4 Guy Butler — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:32:03 -0400

Duplicate post; this is the third on the topic.

Nice survey, though.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 11:33 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:33:53 -0400

Combined with discussion already started.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Sep 23 at 2015 11:55 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:55:16 -0400

So, if this is true, this congressman has also gone through Ranger School (I don't know for sure, but I saw something that indicated that). I can understand his concern to protect his coveted tab....however, he needs to leave the evaluations to the evaluators and just accept that a female passed.

Response by Cpl Robert Masi made Sep 23 at 2015 5:21 PM

Cpl Robert Masi — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:21:41 -0400

GOOD MAN.....Show those god damn Liberals that we can't sacrifice our Military for their bullshit Feel Good agendas

Response by PFC Greg Ortiz made Sep 23 at 2015 5:35 PM

PFC Greg Ortiz — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:35:14 -0400

If these women passed the tests without ANY alterations , then bravo for them, if however the standards were lowered for them to pass, then they know they were lowered and should not be permitted to wear the Ranger tab.

Response by Sgt Jennifer Marie Janus made Sep 23 at 2015 7:58 PM

Sgt Jennifer Marie Janus — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:58:51 -0400

women in the seals don't

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Sep 23 at 2015 8:37 PM

SPC George Rudenko — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:37:07 -0400

Of course! Why not make these women feel like crap after thay got the shitake kicked out of them. Drag them into a political guilotine. Oh, and let's not forget how abysmal the GOP is with women voters.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 9:50 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:50:40 -0400

Shortly after graduation all Observation Reports or ORs, that we write the results of their patrols on. Along with spots reports and peer evaluations are all burned all that remains is a green card that is archived for records.

Response by AB Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 1:37 AM

AB Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:37:08 -0400

From what I've read recently, It would appear that the standards were not lowered for the women, they were lowered for everyone. For example, the women's required pack weight was not reduced from 80lbs to 40lbs, everyone's required pack weight was reduced. So technically the ARMY is right, the standards were not lowered for just the women. LOL Anyway, I haven't heard a credible response to these Instructors complaints yet, but a simple, short, investigation should clear things up quickly.

Response by SGT David T. made Sep 24 at 2015 9:05 AM

SGT David T. — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:05:45 -0400

The question is a valid one. It sort of goes along the lines of trust but verify, but in this case we know that documentation can be pencil whipped. So even if they show the documents, there is no way to know for sure if they are accurate.

Response by PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips made Sep 24 at 2015 11:36 AM

PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:36:55 -0400

"Sources" Well, who are they??? If it is true they should have no issue telling it publicly.

Response by PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips made Sep 24 at 2015 11:43 AM

PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:43:00 -0400

Predictable. This took longer than I though it would. "Sources" Well, who are they??? If it is true they should have no issue telling it publicly. If any kind of special treatment or cheating as I call it happened then those that as supposedly making the accusations should have no issues being open enough to face the public and those they are accusing. That would be seen as an action of integrity. Don't hide behind the word "sources. That makes you a coward.

Response by SFC Chris Crossley made Sep 24 at 2015 12:35 PM

SFC Chris Crossley — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:35:38 -0400

I think it is insulting to the RI's and the CG, FT Benning and the MCOE.
That would be like going to the congressman and asking for all of his college grades, in order to question the validity of the actions of his professors awarding him certain grades.
It is utter and pure nonsense to gain him some notoriety in an otherwise anonymous position.

Response by SFC Chris Crossley made Sep 24 at 2015 12:36 PM

SFC Chris Crossley — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:36:10 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2015 4:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:36:06 -0400

Do not give it to him. Another GOP member butting in to female stuff.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 24 at 2015 4:51 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:51:44 -0400

Fair is fair...

West Point women seek congressman's Ranger School record

A group of West Point women is firing back after a congressman asked the Army to release documents relating to the performance of the first female Ranger students.

Response by SGT Thomas McIlrath made Sep 24 at 2015 9:39 PM

SGT Thomas McIlrath — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:39:42 -0400

Bottom line...
Extra observers and an abundance of brass changed the conditions. Yet, such "conditions" will not be in the records. Make no mistake, "conditions" either grace or hinder the road to a "standard." And a "standard" itself, is only the "end-zone."

Undoubtedly, there was a lot of "field" and a bunch of "players" in the overall play...

Lastly, from my experience and what I assume, it appears that only the "commentators" and "spectators" in the stands, can open up about this topic.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2015 5:27 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:27:16 -0400

What concerns me is not how they completed their training, but how they will perform now that their training is over. Let their professional career experience speak for them, not the completion of their training.

I doubt I'd make it through that training, personally. Congratulations to them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2015 5:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:37:26 -0400

Is Rep. Russell a Ranger? If not, than he has no room to comment or speculate. Just because they are female doesn't mean that they cheated in some way. They earned the Ranger tab!

Response by Sgt Sherry Taylor-Bruce made Sep 26 at 2015 5:58 PM

Sgt Sherry Taylor-Bruce — Sat, 26 Sep 2015 17:58:38 -0400

I'm not a feminist but I know it's been common practice to allow individuals a chance to repeat part of their training, male AND female. The term was recycle in the 80's when I was in the Air Force. I believe that both individuals would perform all the duties of an Army Ranger if given the chance. I have no way to know what happened but I believe everyone has at some point in their life repeated a test, course or assignment without causing huge problems.

I can't say all women could perform as well as men but I would like to see women given the chance. I was never strong enough but I found my own purpose in life.