What are your thoughts on the civilian/military life balance in the Reserves/National Guard?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 01:05:25 -0500

In light of LTG Kadavy's call for more than 39 training days a year, I'm reminded of this NPR article I came across dealing with the struggle some reservists find in trying to maintain a civilian job. In essence, I agree with LTG Kadavy, as 39 training days is not enough to keep up with METL tasks and soldiering skills along with what seems like the hundreds of briefings we conduct in accordance with 350-1.

By statute and doctrine, I understand that we are all protected by USERRA, but in reality, it is very tough, especially if your job is time-oriented or based, to handle the commitment.

Many Guardsmen that I know in higher ranks either serve as AGR or dual status technicians, which begs the question whether the Guard is truly a part-time force.

What are your thoughts about this matter, and is this a factor in retention?

National Guard Members Struggle To Keep Civilian Careers

National Guard soldiers live in two worlds: They can be deployed in a crisis, but must support themselves and their families with civilian jobs. That's made harder by the guard's unpredictable needs.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Nov 25 at 2015 1:10 AM

SSgt David Tedrow — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 01:10:38 -0500

It never used to be an issue, the Reserves was a way to make an extra paycheck, but in today's world it can be very difficult. If you are in a unit that is prone to being deployed it can be tough keeping your civilian career when you get back only to get deployed again.

Response by SSgt Jessica F. made Nov 25 at 2015 1:14 AM

SSgt Jessica F. — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 01:14:53 -0500

Great question Sir! I personally find it difficult with a job, going to school full time and trying to study for military related things to advance my career let alone just stay up to snuff on soldier tasks along with having a family! I honestly would rather be full active duty again, which I'm actually working on.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 7:06 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:06:40 -0500

In the end it is up to you as the solider. I do well more than 39 days a year. Its hard but we have to keep our skill set up to par. there once was a time I would say the Reserve and Guard would work circles around there AC counter parts. Due to all we did on drill weekend was our MOS, now not so much so we have to put forth the extra effort so when called to duty we can perform at the highest level possible.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 7:47 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:47:53 -0500

Well ... I think it also depend what kind of civilian career you got. As an engineer, is rather very flexible as long as I finish my project. So the 39 training days can easily fit in.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 7:52 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:52:33 -0500

I would say that for some its good and for some not so much. it all depends on your marital status, education and whether you have a good family support.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 8:29 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 08:29:14 -0500

It's something that we face far to often. My civilian employment had paid the price. I'm took am active duty position with the Guard. I am going to try stay on the active side as long as. A lot of is just have to pick side and commit to it. Either way the other side will pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 10:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:05:50 -0500

For me , it can be hectic! I mean sometimes I miss out on money from work to go to Battle Assembly! But I have been better at managing time to do what I need to do!

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 10:25 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:25:39 -0500

There is definitely a delicate balance for "citizen-soldiers" of any kind throughout history. You're right that the days may not be enough to maintain adequate training, and also right that the days need to be limited to sustain the civilian portion of that balance. It's a complication that will not find an easy solution. Ever.

Response by SFC Steven Wheeler made Nov 25 at 2015 10:39 AM

SFC Steven Wheeler — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:39:18 -0500

I was AGR for 14 years until I retired as a Readiness NCO. I knew of several soldiers that struggled to maintain there jobs, while others had it easy. Also do not for get about State Active Duty missions and call ups. Florida is pretty active with hurricanes and wild fires a while back. The AGR's and dual status techs had it the easiest. My unit also had members that worked for the state and county governments who also loved to volunteer for state active duty call ups. Unit members that worked for small companies have it the hardest because employers did not want to let them go.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 1:12 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:08 -0500

As many have said here, it depends a lot on your family situation and career. I am fortunate to have worked for either county or state governments for the last twelve years (when not on deployments). The smaller the company, the more impact it has when a service member is absent from work and thus conflict can (and often does arise). That being said, many times the problem is either caused or compounded by communication issues. Either the service member failed to inform the employer of their service obligation schedule or the unit made schedule changes on short notice. This leaves the employer scrambling for coverage and potentially raises payroll costs due to the need for overtime, etc.

If we clean up our communication issues, I feel that most employers will support a few more three day drills throughout the year. The harder sell would be a three week Annual Training every year in the summer when more employees take vacation. During a mobilization cycle (due to deployment or NTC/JRTC training) every few years is one thing, every year is asking a lot.

I feel that the impact to Retention should be minimal. You're either a warrior or an entitled opportunist temporarily wearing the uniform. Those that took the oath with honor and commitment understood the sacrifices that came with it. That's the group I am honored to serve and I will do everything in my power to help the others find the exit door.

Response by LTC Gavin Heater made Nov 25 at 2015 9:57 PM

LTC Gavin Heater — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:57:03 -0500

In my 27 years of service, I spent 18 in the Reserves, including two Iraq deployments. I drilled my 2 days, went to Admin meetings for free every Thursday, often worked a second weekend and frequently worked 1 to 2 more days. Many years I went to schools before or after AT, or worked Frag AT. So...I never did just 39 days...it didn't work for me from CPT to LTC. USERRA will protect most jobs. Troops need to work with employers and reach out to ESGR if they have conflicts, need training for themselves or their employers and to recognize employers who go above and beyond. Most changes seem bigger than they are when they first come out. This idea can work and it will improve readiness.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2015 12:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:47:21 -0500

I'm not sure what more we are trying to achieve? My guard unit had tripple the output of the active duty unit we replaced.

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Nov 26 at 2015 5:17 PM

CSM Christopher St. Cyr — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 17:17:46 -0500

LTG Kadavy is right, 39 days per year is not enough and that is why so many do put in so much extra time at no cost to the government. I have never heard of any reports showing all the official drill days for a point are served in a year. It would be an interesting number, and if I was going to Congress to ask for more paid training days, I think I would want to know that number. Another number I would be interested in knowing is how many hours Guardsmen put in without pay and not on orders. That number would be harder to acquire, but again having a ballpark figure could help with funding. I know my State's funding for some of those extra days for necessary training has taken a hit for the last several years. I don't see that tide turning anytime soon. I think most lifers will do the extra time and would like the pay to go with it. The real question is how do we get Congress to foot the bill. Many Joes and Janes can attend a school and AT in a year, but their states or units lack the funding for both, so it becomes an either/or proposition. Another important issue is training space. As posts have closed and consolidated, training areas are often fully scheduled. Where will units train if Congress does authorize increased training days? Then there is equipment. I know many units share equipment sets. If four or five units share a set of equipment they cannot all use the equipment at the same time creating a demand for more equipment. Who is going to pay for it? Then there are the employment issues. It is true that USERRA protects from direct discrimination, but there is nothing to protect me in an 'at-will' state when I am late for work, fail to complete an assignment or commit some other work faux-pax. My employer can choose to do all kinds of things including terminate my employment. So long has he or she never says the termination is related to my NG membership USERRA does not apply. Here's an idea: re-evaluate mandatory training. If Soldiers spent more time learning their jobs instead of all the other stuff they would do their jobs better. There was a time when the Army integrated training so many of these mandatory topics were included in their Soldier tasks instead of separate required training events.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 26 at 2015 8:15 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 20:15:33 -0500

I know some employers discriminate against against NG and Reservists. It often starts with a semi-bogus counseling statement or write up.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2015 12:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:15:59 -0500

The problem is are we trying to redefine citizen soldier? Or are we just trying to make more active duty units.

The other question to consider is are we prepared to provide the funding support these units need to acquire and maintain these "skills".

I deployed in rapid staccato fashion with the 82nd. The longest I spent home was 5 months tops. It was 3 years easy between Iraq and the NCR mission for my guard unit. Of course battle memory is going to fade.

To think that adding a few extra training days will curb that is just naive and foolish.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 12:11 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:11:34 -0500

It's definitely a juggling act. I would say I spend 15-20 hours a week preparing for each IDT and completing administrative tasks. Add in a demanding full time job, master's classes, and a toddler and it gets hectic to say the least.

It was easier when I was an entry level worker, because I wasn't missed all that much. Now that I have an administrative position there's no one to pick up my slack. Likewise it was easier when I was a PFC and only had to show up and execute. As your rank and scope of responsibility increases it seems to get more and more difficult to get everything done. As you mentioned, it's my goal as well to find either an AGR or Dual-status technician position. The most successful National Guardsmen I know are full time. I doubt that's a coincidence.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 7:25 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 07:25:46 -0500

Everyone wants to talk about AGRs and flexibility. Most Reservist does nothing at their units, they should be in some form of training for their MOS, AGRs should be off so the Reservist can do their job proficiently. Battle Assembly should be quarterly, and Annual Training be conducted in April with PME as top priority. This will give Soldiers flexibility with their employers, while being there for their families and fulfilling their military obligations, especially during peacetime. Most Reserve centers are not equipped with the tools and assets for Soldiers to be adequately trained. Every month what are units chasing Metrics.....how does help Soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 8:01 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 08:01:13 -0500

My MOS requires a heavy commitment to active training over long periods of time to retain currency, so I end up being active duty more often than not. Ive been in the guard since 06 and I'd have to say at least 70% of that was on active duty status just to keep up with the standards, so I totally understand.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 10:15 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:15:03 -0500

Great question, sir! Personally, I love the idea of more training for Guard/Reserve servicemembers. I'm in a Reserve unit here in TN and we frequently discuss how much more prepared we could be if there was just MORE TIME! It would make it more difficult, but that's part of serving. USERRA is a great cushion for instances like this (that isn't to say there's never issues with employers finding ways around USERRA, though).
The most challenging thing that I've found isn't that my employer minds drill weekeends, or even the AT period each year. I'd say that for many a servicemember that NCOES/OES training and progression is the most difficult thing. For the SM it's hard to justify spending 2-4 weeks on additional duty after your drill and Annual Training days when 'there's always next year'. Like 1SG Private RallyPoint Member stated, it's part of the job, so it's not an excuse.

Great topic, sir!

Response by SGT Christina Barron made Dec 1 at 2015 2:42 PM

SGT Christina Barron — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 14:42:20 -0500

I see both sides of this issue.

In one unit, I always felt unprepared for AT because I never seemed to actually do MOS stuff during Drill. In that unit, there was a whole lot of wasted time, especially for lower enlisted. It seemed leadership and AGRs were constantly in meetings, and lower enlisted had to either find make-work or sit on their thumbs while waiting for instructions or to be dismissed for the night. And then, they expected everyone to do a lot of online stuff at home, for free. In a unit like this, where they don't seem to make good use of the time they have, additional training days would most likely result in even more wasted time for lower enlisted.

I have also been in units which made very good use of their time. SMs at all ranks were always doing MOS-specific training. One Drill per year was designated as the Mandatory Briefing drill (usually December), and we got all of our annual briefings out of the way (yes, a couple of days per year of Death-by-PowerPoint), then it was back to MOS-specific tasks. Leadership meetings were held after lower enlisted were dismissed for the day, so that they wouldn't be sitting around waiting for us to get done yapping. If there was online training (i.e. more mandatory Army-wide training) that needed done and we ran out of time at Drill (a very rare event) because we were doing MOS-specific training, as individuals, we could go in during the week and do them at the unit, and receive RMA money for our time. Units like this would make good use of additional training days, as they already know how to properly fill the days with good training. But, because they do properly fill the days they have, they probably don't need more training days.

As far as M-Day SMs balancing these additional training days with their civilian life, it can be a challenge. The year prior to my Guard unit's rotation to NTC, we received extra training days every drill. No drill was only a MUTA 4, they were all at least a MUTA 6, with some MUTA 8 and 9 drills, too. If a SM is out working, their civilian employer often was very frustrated about all the missing work, but could adapt and overcome. If the SM were a student, though, he/she practically had to drop out of college that year, because it was nearly impossible for the SM to make up that many missing class days. I was a nursing student that year. I missed Clinicals because of this schedule, and those can't be made up. If I had missed one more Clinical, I would have been dropped from the nursing program! Trust me, you don't want someone to be your nurse if he/she had missed half of their Clinical rotations, regardless of the reason they were missed.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 4:18 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 16:18:42 -0500

I do not feel we have adequate time to stay proficient enough to supplement active duty personal on a 21 day annual training regiment.

Response by COL Michael Freeman made Dec 1 at 2015 4:35 PM

COL Michael Freeman — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 16:35:09 -0500

I served 30 years with the Army Reserve. Command takes more than “39” days. Senior Staff operations jobs take more than “39” days. The more responsibility you take on, the more time will be required to keep up with requirements and get the job done. This is no different in the civilian world. As a Corporate Controller, I spent 60-80 hours per week keeping up with requirements and getting the job done. I could have kept a 40 hour a week job and never advanced my career, but I chose to do more. The Army Reserve motivated me to do more. Every 2-3 years, I would seek a new USAR job with more responsibility.
At one point in my career, (all at the same time) I worked as a Battalion Staff Officer, completed CAS3, Completed the Army Finance Officer Advanced Course, was a Corporate Controller of a company that grew to locations in multiple states, raised two kids with the support of a wonderful wife, was a Scout Leader, was a soccer Coach and still maintained my Certified Public Accountant professional education requirements.
Balancing the civilian and military workload can be complicated. It requires the support of your family and the understanding of your employer. Each employer should understand that your professional development in the Reserve program will benefit the organization. Problem solving experience and knowing how to handle stressful situations is always useful in the civilian world, but not easily attained. How many civilian employees have been tested under hazardous and strenuous conditions?
Many Reserve and National Guard jobs lead to additional certifications and educational achievements. Military education is typically in addition to the basic “39 days” of duty. Many Reserve and Guard members earn civilian educational benefits that civilian employers would normally have to pay for. Certainly, civilian employers will benefit from a smarter, certified workforce.
So, yes, it takes more than 39 days to be proficient and grow. It takes more than 40 hours to be proficient and grow in a civilian job too. You have to want it bad enough to make it work. If you don’t want it bad enough, you probably should seek out that 9-5 job with no responsibility and a cushy schedule and kick back and watch TV in your free time. I never did and never will.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2015 4:46 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 16:46:06 -0500

I think that the training done during battle assemblies needs to be considered more carefully. I know that most soldiers consider those weekends a "loss" as far as non-military activities are concerned...I know I do. I think it would be easier on the a lot of soldiers to increase BTA days and have more 3-day weekends.

But make these 3-day weekends productive. Turn them into FTX's, in field or field-like environments. Conduct training into the evening and get some METL and Warrior skills training done.

Having more AT days available is nice, but those larger blocks are often more difficult for the citizen soldier. They often end up taking the space where traditional family vacation time is available, or people are working extra summer jobs to support their education efforts (despite GI bill and tuition assistance). Any extra AT funding should be offered for all who want it, but unless it is mission critical it should not be required.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Dec 1 at 2015 5:27 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:27:03 -0500

Everyone in a Guard or Reserve unit knows at least one person who has watched their career stagnate, lost a job or not been offered a job due to their military commitment (proving that's the reason or a part of the reason is next to impossible). We can be honest here, when the "rubber meets the road" all the "support" for our military and gestures of gratitude tend to evaporate when supporting the military (Guard/Reserves specifically) requires someone, such as an employer or potential employer to actually DO something. It is for this reason, I am hesitant to give up my federal job to return to the private sector until my contract with Uncle Sam ends.

As for training days, except for certain MOSs and those in lofty ranks who may need more time to get things done, I have always argued that for most who drill, 39 days (or thereabouts) is sufficient training days-if only we actually received 39 days! I do not exagerate when I say about half of our battle assemblies in my unit are dedicated to administrative work and B.S. classes which have NOTHING to do with our jobs, but are deemed important by someone in an office in Washington who feels it is nessessary-and never takes into accunt that these classes--whether worthwhile or not--can be easier absorbed (time-wise) by the Active military than the part-time military. Hence nearly half of our time is mandated to be unilized for such nonsense!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 9:24 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 09:24:45 -0500

Based on the responses on this conversation it seems like most folks would be alright with adding time if it didn't mess with employment (and likely schooling for others). Do many units offer IMA orders? Do y'all think that civilian employers would be able to balance that more easily since it would be in one big 'chunk' of time? CPT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 7:24 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 07:24:51 -0500

I have served with folks who work in the private sector, and they do have a tough time juggling both commitments. It's even harder for the folks that own their own business. I am lucky in that I am a Government civilian, so obviously my employer doesn't give me any grief, but it's still a time challenge.

Response by COL Steven Wujciak made Dec 3 at 2015 11:13 AM

COL Steven Wujciak — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 11:13:40 -0500

As I served my 35 year career it became clear that most Senior personnel were Federal and State employees, administrators, police, teachers etc.. Essentially, people who's employers were by law required to support the Guard and Reserve. With few exceptions, the only other groups that suceeded were those self employed and those with professional credentials such as doctors, lawyers, nurses with flexible schedules.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Dec 3 at 2015 3:18 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 15:18:31 -0500

I perhaps had the best of all worlds as the Flag Officers were the same for both my Civil Service and Reserve work. I did have a GS-15 tell me I'd never get promoted because I was gone on Reserve duty. That word got around with a Flag calling our local Skipper with the Whiskey Tango question. Made him a believer. So my year was averaging 2-3 months worth of drill, AT, ADT, ADSW, etc. All bets went off post 9-11 and I think it was about 60% gone. I did get involved with some of my folk being fired for service. I had an O-5, who was an Architect, receive a pink slip and the letter even stated the reason was his Reserve affiliation. We sent that up and when it hit the DoJ desk, it was rejected because they're only interested in stuff that's worth $2M or more and this officer will find a job long before that. They essentially took the same position on the other two cases we pushed forward as well. I retired from the Mil side in '03. It was time and I was getting near the legal limit for total points. My wife said the reserve career wasn't much different over active as I'd get yanked for something and that's how it works.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2015 3:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 15:50:50 -0500

I may have a relatively uncommon perspective on this. I commissioned into the reserves despite making every attempt to go Active from day 0, what I did not know back then and all the way through BOLC is exactly how much goes on in the Reserve, in my 4 1/2 years and change in I have managed to spend about half on some sort of active duty or other temporary full time status between BOLC, deployment, multiple consecutive AT's, etc. I was recently asked by some visiting foreign VIP's what I do on the civilian side and my answer, a phrase coined with their help, was "I am a professional reservist."

With such a large proportion of my relatively little time in, holding any civilian employment is as tough as it is to find it in the first place. Despite being forced to play ball due to Federal Laws, most corporations do not like the idea. I both understand and dislike it at the same time. when I returned from my deployment, I went to about 15 different job interviews in a quarter, some though a military focused recruiting firm, some independently, some were also second interviews, I was even flown to corporate HQ's. I received a lot of positive feedback, even confirmed by the recruiting firm yet still nothing came of it. I came to view the process as one similar to dating when the other part is desperate to get married. You may have a bead on a great opportunity, but some random little detail or minute of timing can cost the shot. Bottom line, I can not count on the civilian job market.

The Army though, is always there, always has something going on, and it is usually much easier to get on board even if "the bus is already moving", so to speak. The Reserve/Guard catch phrase is "Citizen-Soldier" but I transpose the words. As long as the Army has the opportunity, it gets the priority. (Luckily I have the family support, financial fortitude, etc to be able to live this way.)

I have completely overhauled my strategy for work outside the Army, anything in the civilian sector is an occupation. For true professional progress, I put on the OCP (I am prepping an AGR packet as well). (my branch is advantageous for me in this regard, I get to blend two professional environments I was raised in, Construction & Business Law, earn any of several certificates, etc.)

Personal Note: I am hard pressed to think of any non-military work that is a profoundly rewarding or a more noble cause. Also, this post ended up longer that I expected...

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2017 7:21 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Jul 2017 07:21:04 -0400

Your absolutely have good point sir when it comes down to the training demands my unit most of the time does 3 days out of the month because my Reserve unit infantry and is required to go out into the field for this 2 days and with the last being maintenance and clean up. On top of that the command often are sending soldiers to school like Air Assault and BLC it takes a toll a few of my SGT managed to gain positions as Unit Administrators so they essentially work for the Battalion full time. I personally lucked out and have very military friendly employers but then again it's a state job.